What will happen when all the low skill jobs are gone?

eeguy

So Enda Kenny came under fire for calling the people of Castlebar whiners when they said there was no recovery in the west of Ireland.
Castlebar has had a series of factory closures since 2008 and the service industry has suffered too as a result.
Up and down Ireland (and the UK), factories in small towns are closing and will never be replaced. Any factories that have opened in recent years are in or around cities and are heavily automated, having only a small core staff to maintain production.
In the next 2 decades automation is going to really take off replacing traditional low skill jobs in manufacturing, transport and retail.

So what happens when thousands are made redundant through automation?
What happens when anyone who drives or does any repetitive task is made unemployable as it's cheaper and more efficient to automate the process?
Is it the end of civilisation as we know it?

Iwasfrozen

eeguy wrote: »

So Enda Kenny came under fire for calling the people of Castlebar whiners when they said there was no recovery in the west of Ireland.
Castlebar has had a series of factory closures since 2008 and the service industry has suffered too as a result.
Up and down Ireland (and the UK), factories in small towns are closing and will never be replaced. Any factories that have opened in recent years are in or around cities and are heavily automated, having only a small core staff to maintain production.
In the next 2 decades automation is going to really take off replacing traditional low skill jobs in manufacturing, transport and retail.

So what happens when thousands are made redundant through automation?
What happens when anyone who drives or does any repetitive task is made unemployable as it's cheaper and more efficient to automate the process?
Is it the end of civilisation as we know it?

Nope. People will adapt as they've always done. Those who can't or won't adapt will suffer.

The Backwards Man

Nope.

For as long as people have money, there will always be ways to get the money off them. You know what would fcuk humanity though? If the robots started holding the purse strings.

...And Justice

We'll have to kill the poor

tomwaterford

Robot/automatic driving will never take off to a large extent...as too many risk and differevt factors to account for

Falthyron

There will always be jobs that require some degree of human problem solving, creativity or initiative that can not be emulated by automation and would appear trivial or 'low skill' by others.

BoJack Horseman

...And Justice wrote: »

We'll have to kill the poor

Quiet & eat your soylent green.

Gatling

The hunger games ,

We'll have to kill our fellow interviewees for jobs

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

A guaranteed income for everyone paid by the state is inevitable at some point in the future. As food and goods become easier to produce.

There will always be some low paid jobs available in the services industry too.

Easca Peasca

Everyone will be working in IT.

RobbingBandit

They took our jobs!!!

eeguy

Falthyron wrote: »

There will always be jobs that require some degree of human problem solving, creativity or initiative that can not be emulated by automation and would appear trivial or 'low skill' by others.

But will there be enough jobs to keep a population gainfully employed. We currently have a situation were hundreds of low skill workers are replaced by few high skill workers.

A biscuit factory recently opened in Drogheda and the CEO stated that their automation technology can undercut UK competition as while their start up cost was high their wage bill is minimal.
So we potentially have a case where hundreds of UK line workers will be made redundant and their skillset is obsolete.

ED E

Same thing as happened when we got tractors and factories and stopped doing every little thing with a horse or by hand. The bottom rung falls off the ladder, everyone moves up a rung.

Dravokivich

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

A guaranteed income for everyone paid by the state is inevitable at some point in the future. As food and goods become easier to produce.

There will always be some low paid jobs available in the services industry too.

I think there's too much dependence on the services industry. A lot of it I feel is supported by luxuries and at some point people aren't going to be able to afford that anymore. For example car insurance companies are really starting to out price their customers now based on a car being 15 years old.

Stigura

I remember watching " Tomorrows World " almost half a century ago. They were saying how automation was going to take over all the menial, manual work of production.

And so ye common man would have far more leisure time, due to not having to work all the weeks of his life.

This is why the government would be developing huge and wonderful leisure parks, around the south coast. Where all these relaxed and contented, unemployed prol's could concentrate, in their free time.

Entire counties turned into vast holiday camps


I think there were elements of truth in that vision :rolleyes:

the_syco

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

A guaranteed income for everyone paid by the state is inevitable at some point in the future. As food and goods become easier to produce.

The dole?

recylingbin

More PR and morkeshing Autobots.

the_syco

Stigura wrote: »

Entire counties turned into vast holiday camps

With German made showers?

SEPT 23 1989

Look at the unemployment rate for under 25's across Europe

Not enough jobs for our population and there never will he again

eeguy

ED E wrote: »

Same thing as happened when we got tractors and factories and stopped doing every little thing with a horse or by hand. The bottom rung falls off the ladder, everyone moves up a rung.

That's a common enough argument that's held true in the past. The horsey jobs lost due to automobiles were replaced by car factories and the oil and fast food industry created.

But this revolution is different. The people who built cars were looking to replace horses, the people who build robots are looking to replace people. So when your job is replaced by a robot, built by another robot and designed and programmed by people with qualifications world's away from yours, where do you go for a job?

JRant

Sure we've been hearing the same thing since the industrial revolution. The great thing about humans is that we always find a way to create new opportunities.

Now if those whingers in the west hadn't of scuppered the 400kV corridor then a lot more industry would have been attracted to the area. The west has some of the best wind and wave conditions on the planet that could be utilised but will be seriously hampered by the lack of a strong grid.

Kat1170

ED E wrote: »

Same thing as happened when we got tractors and factories and stopped doing every little thing with a horse or by hand. The bottom rung falls off the ladder, everyone moves up a rung.

BUT, those on the bottom rung that appeared to move up, really didn't. they are still on the bottom rung. Only it is costing even more to basically stay where they were all along.

Lellostag

the_syco wrote: »

With German made showers?

Good one!!

csallmighty

Sure who's gonna make the machines?

gctest50

tomwaterford wrote: »

Robot/automatic driving will never take off to a large extent...as too many risk and differevt factors to account for

robot refuelling :

fiachr_a

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Look at the unemployment rate for under 25's across Europe

Not enough jobs for our population and there never will he again

Especially when some of these under 25s did useless 3rd-level courses making them unemployable.

Junkyard Tom

It depends to what ends the automation is being used.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yvs7f4UaKLo

Skatedude

eeguy wrote: »

So Enda Kenny came under fire for calling the people of Castlebar whiners when they said there was no recovery in the west of Ireland.
Castlebar has had a series of factory closures since 2008 and the service industry has suffered too as a result.
Up and down Ireland (and the UK), factories in small towns are closing and will never be replaced. Any factories that have opened in recent years are in or around cities and are heavily automated, having only a small core staff to maintain production.
In the next 2 decades automation is going to really take off replacing traditional low skill jobs in manufacturing, transport and retail.

So what happens when thousands are made redundant through automation?
What happens when anyone who drives or does any repetitive task is made unemployable as it's cheaper and more efficient to automate the process?
Is it the end of civilisation as we know it?

People said exactly the same thing with the invention of the steam engine.

JRant

csallmighty wrote: »

Sure who's gonna make the machines?

The fear seems to be that machines will start building other machines.

I think this problem stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of how technology works. For all the clever things they seem to be able to do, machines are just simpletons carrying out instructions.

RayCon

I saw a documentary about this very topic a few years back .... think it was called Terminator.

eeguy

JRant wrote: »

The fear seems to be that machines will start building other machines.

I think this problem stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of how technology works. For all the clever things they seem to be able to do, machines are just simpletons carrying out instructions.

That's true, but machines are becoming more capable at replicating repetitious actions that previously only people could do.

Also, it doesn't take many people to program an entire factory and once that factory is going, it doesn't take many people to maintain it.

And all the people in the production chain have specialised qualifications that take years to attain.

SEPT 23 1989

Skatedude wrote: »

People said exactly the same thing with the invention of the steam engine.

Building and maintaining railways worldwide since the invention of steam was labour intensive giving millions of jobs for a over a century

JRant

eeguy wrote: »

That's true, but machines are becoming more capable at replicating repetitious actions that previously only people could do.

Also, it doesn't take many people to program an entire factory and once that factory is going, it doesn't take many people to maintain it.

And all the people in the production chain have specialised qualifications that take years to attain.

Very true and it brings into question why we are offering incentives for the likes of Apple to set up data centres in the west when you'd be hard pressed to find a less labour intensive industry.

That money would be far better spent helping local start ups. It seems though that a photo op with a few head honchos from the States trumps real solutions.

gctest50

eeguy wrote: »

That's true, but machines are becoming more capable at replicating repetitious actions that previously only people could do. ..........

and more :

mahoganygas

eeguy wrote: »

In the next 2 decades automation is going to really take off replacing traditional low skill jobs in manufacturing, transport and retail.

So what happens when thousands are made redundant through automation?
What happens when anyone who drives or does any repetitive task is made unemployable as it's cheaper and more efficient to automate the process?

The writing has been on the wall since the 70's.
Ireland was never going to be a manufacturing economy. Everybody knew this.
Anybody who started working in a factory 20 years ago and expected to have similar job options now was delusional.

Upskill. Don't sit around and wait for the state to magic up work for you.
A Job for life is an illusion.

The Randy Riverbeast

New jobs will be created. Eventually we may get to a point where basic income is introduced so people can afford to become qualified in an area or help the homeless.

Speedwell

mahoganygas wrote: »

The writing has been on the wall since the 70's.
Ireland was never going to be a manufacturing economy. Everybody knew this.
Anybody who started working in a factory 20 years ago and expected to have similar job options now was delusional.

Upskill. Don't sit around and wait for the state to magic up work for you.
A Job for life is an illusion.

20 years ago I worked in a studio making stained glass windows by hand in the American South. The Mexican industry replaced me (and they deserved to, I'm not complaining, I helped train a few of the Mexican immigrants myself). Today I work from home in a middle-level IT job after moving up through the ranks from "data entry". My husband worked in factories 20 years ago, and rose to a supervisory rank, and then the Irish downturn hit him and he lost his job. Today he is studying to be a chef. Neither of us are doing what we thought we'd be doing, if you'd asked us 20 years ago. Neither of us are doing our "dream job". But we are doing OK and the bills are getting paid, and that is a great feeling.

FalconGirl

A project I'm on now is automating processes that will result in the loss of about 50-60 jobs. The poor craythurs know it too but the writings have been on the wall for the last few years. Anytime I'm out in the field doing my analysis I always hear the snide auld "coming to take our jobs comment" out of some of them making it incredibly difficult at times.

Feel like saying "yes I am and what are you going to do about it?" Half them know it and are too lazy to upskill.

I do fear for society as a whole that savings made by automation will not reach the less well off and as corporations become wealthier more people will become unemployed and fall into poverty.

Speedwell

FalconGirl wrote: »

A project I'm on now is automating processes that will result in the loss of about 50-60 jobs. The poor craythurs know it too but the writings have been on the wall for the last few years. Anytime I'm out in the field doing my analysis I always hear the snide auld "coming to take our jobs comment" out of some of them making it incredibly difficult at times.

Feel like saying "yes I am and what are you going to do about it?" Half them know it and are too lazy to upskill.

Lazy /= scared to step out of their comfort zone. The walls around that comfort zone are made of "the way we've always done it" and cemented with "we don't know how to do it any other way". And they're often topped by the concertina wire of "no good alternatives" and the observation towers of "how are we going to get by while we upskill".

In the US, where social welfare is a joke, many low-skill workers literally can't upskill because they are too busy working two jobs to make ends meet, or don't have predictable schedules that would allow them to take a class, or can't scrape the money together to take a class, or wouldn't have enough to eat if they had to quit their jobs to get training, or... you get the picture.

ScumLord

The thing about automation is that it only makes sense on large production runs. So it's great for making a billion iPhones but not so good at making an off size gate for your driveway.

But automation is getting cheaper to the point its found a place in smaller production runs but at that level it's a tool, like your milling machine or bandsaw, it just does more steps. It still needs someone to tell it what to do.

The major change in the future will be that all these really advanced production techniques normally the reserve of international corporations will become accessible to way more people. A CNC milling machine is now pretty affordable.

I can see large scale production of things falling by the wayside as one off bespoke products take their place. Either you'll go to a small business and buy something they've produced that would cost a fortune today but is made much more accessible due to automated systems like 3D printing. Or design something yourself and bring it to your local engineering company who'll manufacture it for you at about the same price you'd pay for an affordable high end product today.

So as much as it could kill the factory floor job it could create a whole new way of of producing and buying products.

gctest50

ScumLord wrote: »

The thing about automation is that it only makes sense on large production runs. So it's great for making a billion iPhones but not so good at making an off size gate for your driveway.
........

getting there :

Self programming assembly cell for structural steel, no setup

edbrez

Most real low skilled jobs have already gone for new entrants - fishing, farming, mining.

SEPT 23 1989

FalconGirl wrote: »

A project I'm on now is automating processes that will result in the loss of about 50-60 jobs. The poor craythurs know it too but the writings have been on the wall for the last few years. Anytime I'm out in the field doing my analysis I always hear the snide auld "coming to take our jobs comment" out of some of them making it incredibly difficult at times.

Feel like saying "yes I am and what are you going to do about it?" Half them know it and are too lazy to upskill.

I do fear for society as a whole that savings made by automation will not reach the less well off and as corporations become wealthier more people will become unemployed and fall into poverty.

Hopefully you are working for Transdev

eeguy

FalconGirl wrote: »

A project I'm on now is automating processes that will result in the loss of about 50-60 jobs. The poor craythurs know it too but the writings have been on the wall for the last few years. Anytime I'm out in the field doing my analysis I always hear the snide auld "coming to take our jobs comment" out of some of them making it incredibly difficult at times.

I'm doing something similar. I get the same comment but my argument is that it's better to automate a few people out of jobs than watch the whole company fold. Besides, automation can grow a company and pave the way for more high paying professional jobs which is all around better for the company and the local community.

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Hopefully you are working for Transdev

They're high on list. In 50 years people will think we were crazy to ever let a person drive.

beach_walker

FalconGirl wrote: »

A project I'm on now is automating processes that will result in the loss of about 50-60 jobs.

I worked on a project once kinda similar* once, basically (I'm in software) we had a huge QA team which took a long time to do a full manual regression test for every release/iteration. The product was not designed with automated tests in mind so a team of us were sent off for months to put such a system in place. It took a while but we got there. What used to happen once every few weeks, which involved 15+ QAs around a week to go through was then ran every single night (or as often as we wanted) in no time. The quality of the product went through the roof but I did feel a bit bad...


*most of the QAs had to retrain into pseudo-dev roles. They were disproportionally hit a few months later when we were laying off people.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

beach_walker

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

And also ask why are they breaking the campaigning moratorium :pac:


I do think that the inevitable increasing automation will be a great thing for humanity, it might just be a bit rough getting the balance right.

Speedwell

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Speaking to the thought and not to the person (sorry, this is not an attack and I'm not arguing per se)...

The claim that a higher minimum wage increases unemployment is facile and somewhat intuitive, but not all things that are easy and obvious are in fact true. When the minimum wage was set in the US to begin with, it was set at a level that was expected to actually provide modestly for the basic needs of working-class people. That is what a minimum wage is for. Any rise in the minimum wage is characterized as a tax or burden or punishment for business, when in fact a business not paying the minimum wage is getting a free ride and engaging in labor theft.

Yes. I used to be a US "Libertarian" once. The issue that turned me around was the minimum wage, along with access to healthcare, and the idea that turned me around was that people ought not to be slaves and sick. The reason we even have societies is to work together to make the lives of its members better than individual effort can accomplish. If a person's full-time work can't suffice to earn them a life of safety and decency, if a society enables the wastefully over-comfortable to treat people like commodities, then it isn't much of a society and the working people are being effectively owned. Don't like Communism? Then don't support exploitation.

Innovation, automation, education... these three things; the engineer, the teacher, and the Internet communicator... these three people; frugality, magnanimity, and willingness to admit a mistake and to learn from reality... these three virtues, are the things that are going to lead us forward as a good society into the future. I hope.

Our elderly and our children will still need looking after...

Ray Palmer

beach_walker wrote: »

I worked on a project once kinda similar* once, basically (I'm in software) we had a huge QA team which took a long time to do a full manual regression test for every release/iteration. The product was not designed with automated tests in mind so a team of us were sent off for months to put such a system in place. It took a while but we got there. What used to happen once every few weeks, which involved 15+ QAs around a week to go through was then ran every single night (or as often as we wanted) in no time. The quality of the product went through the roof but I did feel a bit bad...


*most of the QAs had to retrain into pseudo-dev roles. They were disproportionally hit a few months later when we were laying off people.

I happen to work in QA and automation testing has been going on for years. What was seen as a great way of saving time has proven not to be. The maintenance of them is so high in costs and time that they often don't work. For it to work here has to be so much coordination of people and processes that it fails all the time. The automation tests generally only aid in repeating a test that probably would never be repeated anyway. There isn't a vast improvement of quality and it can even go down due to false assumptions the tests past.
It normally doesn't reduce QA teams but big projects do take in people and then dump them but that applies to the whole development team. That is why contracting works so well in IT. A company can take in people and doesn't have to keep them once they finish the project.
The things is as technology moved on people who would have done admin type jobs were reduced in theory but that is not quite what happened. Some went in maintaining the software and hardware and the IT industry was created. Mean while the ability to get better information was created so admin jobs became more complex and numbers increased again. There is more data than there was before and it is being used.
IT is being automated too with the likes of things like SquareSpace. It really has eliminated lots of small scale web designers but it has also increased the number of web pages. Some people are even now offering services to design a web page using it.

Hrududu

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I happen to work in QA and automation testing has been going on for years. What was seen as a great way of saving time has proven not to be. The maintenance of them is so high in costs and time that they often don't work. For it to work here has to be so much coordination of people and processes that it fails all the time. The automation tests generally only aid in repeating a test that probably would never be repeated anyway. There isn't a vast improvement of quality and it can even go down due to false assumptions the tests past.

Automation in QA done right eliminates the need for the repetitive regression testing. But too often its not done right. Which increases the amount of maintenance needed on the tests. We've eliminated a huge portion of tests that had to be run manually by automating them. The only maintenance they need is when the application itself changes and the tests need to change accordingly.

But I've also been on projects where the standard of the tests was poor. The people writing them didn't have the skills to make them as solid as they could be and were very reluctant to upskill so that they could make them better.