Is sexual abuse rampant in society?

RobertKK

We know of the abuse that happened in the church, that happened in swimming, that happened in families and other places.
Today a former national basketball coach got jailed for 14 years for sexual abuse of 12 to 16 year old boys.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/circuit-court/victims-of-bill-kenneally-describe-fear-after-sexual-assaults-1.2540399

Bill Kenneally who was also a tally man at elections for FF had no prior convictions before 2015, yet he had abused minors for four years.

Is every area of society infested with abusers of minors? It does seem it takes time for the victims to gain the courage to make that step and alert the Gardai or Police.
In the case of Kenneally, he would take pictures of his victims when naked and would tell them he would not show them to their families if they said stayed silent.

What is also concerning about the Kenneally case is, he came to the attention of the Gardai in 1987 when a complaint was made by a family member, this was after he had abused boys who played basketball, soccer and tennis.
In 1987, he met senior Gardai officiers in Waterford and told them he would go for treatment and that was it, he was free to go.

He got 14 years in jail, but how many more Kenneally's are walking free in society?
There seems to be a lot of abusers who might never receive justice.
I think a lot of victims are embarrassed (even though not their fault), deeply scarred, afraid and don't want to open up the hurt they experience in case they are not believed.

We like to think that it is not as bad now as in the past and that child safety protects children, but given most of it happens within families, is it possible that most child abusers get away with their crimes?
To convict Kenneally, it took about 30 years after the crimes he committed before he finally received justice.
It does like it can take decades before a lot of abused people reach a point where they finally lose the grip their abuser held over them.

222233

RobertKK wrote: »

We know of the abuse that happened in the church, that happened in swimming, that happened in families and other places.
Today a former national basketball coach got jailed for 14 years for sexual abuse of 12 to 16 year old boys.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/circuit-court/victims-of-bill-kenneally-describe-fear-after-sexual-assaults-1.2540399

He got 14 years in jail, but how many more Kenneally's are walking free in society?



We like to think that it is not as bad now as in the past and that child safety protects children, but given most of it happens within families, is it possible that most child abusers get away with their crimes?
To convict Kenneally, it took about 30 years after the crimes he committed before he finally received justice.

I get what your saying and I understand it must be incredibly difficult for victims to come forward, as long as victims haven't reported a crime it may still be continuing.

I personally feel and will probably get attacked over this that after a certain number of years these cases shouldn't be investigated, in some cases (not the case you address) that we have seen there have been false allegations simply with the intent to destroy, in others the type of abuse may have been a representation of society at the time if that makes sense?

Cases like this are horrific and I am glad that the victims have had their abuser brought to justice.

I just think it should be reported ASAP (I am aware times were different) but I think as time goes on and evidence becomes harder to come by it makes for very dangerous sometimes as we saw in the UK false allegations to be brought forward for which there is no penalty.

I think abuse does still exist but I think now it is much better picked up on by schools, social workers etc as they are very well educated and VERY much aware of the signs etc, I think there are better ways of dealing with these things now and maybe Im wrong but I think people have a much better understanding of right and wrong in such a modern culture.

drunkmonkey

Seems to be, you'll know any of them that touch my kids a mile off though by the Hurley lodged in their forehead.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Exists? Yes, and in many countries. Rampant? No.

Fish out of water

Sexual abuse is not rampant in society.

arayess

Just a quick clarification on one point.

RobertKK wrote: »

What is also concerning about the Kenneally case is, he came to the attention of the Gardai in 1987 when a complaint was made by a family member, this was after he had abused boys who played basketball, soccer and tennis.
In 1987, he met senior Gardai officiers in Waterford and told them he would go for treatment and that was it, he was free to go.

.

The reporting in other media suggested that they couldn't press charges as the family of the initial victim (reported) decided not to proceed.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/sports-coach-who-handcuffed-and-bound-boys-during-sex-assaults-jailed-for-14-years-34467898.html

The trial also heard that another family contacted Gardai about Bill Kenneally in 1987 over concerns about his links with their teenage son.

Kenneally made specific admissions but no prosecution was taken because the family involved did not want to make a formal complaint.

The court heard that Kenneally had assured gardai 29 years ago that he was "getting medical treatment for his problem."

The teen involved is not one of the ten involved in the current prosecution

.

The gardas hand were somewhat tied there.

RobertKK

Mohammed Millions Prairie wrote: »

Exists? Yes, and in many countries. Rampant? No.

Yes, the use of the exist was silly, for obvious reasons.

I think many like to believe it is not such a big problem now.
The difference now to the past is a lot of abuse has moved onto the internet, and it is probably a more dangerous time, even more so than the past to be a victim, given the image or video of the victim being abused does be spread on the internet for other abusers to use.

RobertKK

Fish out of water wrote: »

Sexual abuse is not rampant in society.

The one in four website says: http://www.oneinfour.ie/about/
In Ireland research has shown that one in four children (27%) will experience sexual abuse before the age of 18.

Was an altar boy for 8 years and didn't even get a wink.

My older friends had a few more scares, know of friends who say that this guy drove them up a side road when they were a kid and asked for a kiss, or that guy put his hand inside her knickers when she was 8...and they're almost matter of fact about it. I suspect that almost casual abuse has been totally reduced.

ScumLord

RobertKK wrote: »

We like to think that it is not as bad now as in the past and that child safety protects children, but given most of it happens within families, is it possible that most child abusers get away with their crimes?
To convict Kenneally, it took about 30 years after the crimes he committed before he finally received justice.
It does like it can take decades before a lot of abused people reach a point where they finally lose the grip their abuser held over them.

We are improving, there's records of child abuse going all the way back to the greeks where it was a somewhat acceptable practice to groom boys. The church has probably been a haven for all kind of abusers taking advantage of it's power.

We're not long civilized and it wasn't an intuitive process, it took millennia of trial and error, setbacks and restarts. We have actively changed our behaviour (rather than evolve) and we're finally at a point where we can pull down establishments that have abused the people's trust for their own end. We're finally at a point where we know better.

Cruelty in humans isn't what's bizarre, we are a product of nature and nature is cruel.

RobertKK

arayess wrote: »

Just a quick clarification on one point.



The reporting in other media suggested that they couldn't press charges as the family of the initial victim (reported) decided not to proceed.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/sports-coach-who-handcuffed-and-bound-boys-during-sex-assaults-jailed-for-14-years-34467898.html

.

The gardas hand were somewhat tied there.

I don't know what the law was back then. But given he said he would get treatment, surely that was the same as admitting he was guilty of what he was accused of.
Why did he say to the Gardai he would get treatment for his sexual tendencies? Who then let him off free in society.
That wouldn't happen now, so were the laws really that weak? I was just a child then and thankfully had a blissful life compared to some of these stories about people around a similar age to myself.

whisky_galore

No more or no less rampant than other bad sh*t people do.

RobertKK wrote: »

I think many like to believe it is not such a big problem now.

This is whistling past the graveyard thinking.

If you say, a lot of this has moved online, unless the perpetrators are total computer whizzes at covering their tracks, an online trail can be picked up by investigators.

BattleCorp

It depends on what you mean by rampant?

I'd say it is far more common than people realise seeing as it mostly happens behind closed doors and lots of people don't talk about it.

Common, yes. Rampant, no.

LeeLooLee

Fish out of water wrote: »

Sexual abuse is not rampant in society.

Depends on your definition of 'rampant'. The statistics say roughly 1 in 4 people are sexually abused. That seems pretty rampant to me.

Graces7

Far more common than will ever be known. Within families. I know counsellors and the abuse is far too frequent. It is vital that victims are able to reveal what happened for their mental well being. If not then it can run and dominate their entire lives as I know both from those I talk with and my own experience in this area. Does not have to be a public matter. ie most cases never become public. Has to be closure for the person however late in life that happens. I would even go as far as " rampant".But the actual degree will never be known. One problem is that abused people tend to go on to become abusers. Have seen this too often. And it goes on behind closed doors. Not just sexual. Asking that if you reply please do nto quote my posts; do nto want to explain that but please. These are tender things and I am offline very soon. Blesing and peace

tayto lover

RobertKK wrote: »

I don't know what the law was back then. But given he said he would get treatment, surely that was the same as admitting he was guilty of what he was accused of.
Why did he say to the Gardai he would get treatment for his sexual tendencies? Who then let him off free in society.
That wouldn't happen now, so were the laws really that weak? I was just a child then and thankfully had a blissful life compared to some of these stories about people around a similar age to myself.

I was told by a young lad I was working with that he was abused years ago.
I contacted the Gardai and 2 of them came and interviewed the lad who was then 19 years. He asked me to stay for the interview. He made a statement alleging abuse by a man who was then in his 40's. It happened when the lad was 13.
He told the Gardai that he wouldn't sign it or go to court and didn't want to follow it up. He just wanted to report the alleged abuser.
The Gardai could do no more than interview the man and let him know that they were on to him in an effort to prevent it happening again.
Unless there's a signed statement of complaint they can do nothing more.

FalconGirl

I think it goes on a lot more often than we think, even in this day and age.

Graces7

LeeLooLee wrote: »

Depends on your definition of 'rampant'. The statistics say roughly 1 in 4 people are sexually abused. That seems pretty rampant to me.

Thanks; that is the figure I have too; see my post and eg myself will never be on any statistic list. Nor will many I know and talk with. Too shamed you see. Sorry; have to leave this thread; I think most will understand why but it is needful it is known.. Have tg leave this thread and would be grateful thus if folk replying did not quote my posts. Best not reply...please; thank you,, But it is like an iceberg you see; only the tip will ever be seen. Sorry; tears flowing here.

sillysmiles

222233 wrote: »

I personally feel and will probably get attacked over this that after a certain number of years these cases shouldn't be investigated, in some cases (not the case you address) that we have seen there have been false allegations simply with the intent to destroy, in others the type of abuse may have been a representation of society at the time if that makes sense?

I understand what you are saying about the difficulty to prove an incident so many years after the fact, but there is no other criminal act that isn't investigated after a number of years.
What you are suggesting is that victims of these crimes are not entitled to the full impact of the law.

As I assume you aren't saying that people who make these claims should automatically be assumed to be lying?

Graces7

tayto lover wrote: »

I was told by a young lad I was working with that he was abused years ago.
I contacted the Gardai and 2 of them came and interviewed the lad who was then 19 years. He asked me to stay for the interview. He made a statement alleging abuse by a man who was then in his 40's. It happened when the lad was 13.
He told the Gardai that he wouldn't sign it or go to court and didn't want to follow it up. He just wanted to report the alleged abuser.
The Gardai could do no more than interview the man and let him know that they were on to him in an effort to prevent it happening again.
Unless there's a signed statement of complaint they can do nothing more.

Doing that will bring him peace, believe me. More would not help.. excuse me please. Glad you were there for him. Bless you!

Hercule Poirot

Rampant seems to suggest that it is happening all over the country, all of the time

Use of social media is rampant - sexual abuse is not

That being said we cannot allow ourselves to become desensitised to the horrors of sexual abuse. This country has seen more than many in regards to the sexual abuse of minors - but this is because people who have been abused are bravely coming forward and telling their stories, often many years after the abuse occurred.

We live in a better society (I would like to think) where we are seeing reports from various different decades only coming light in this day and age where people have been given a better platform to seek justice on their abusers.

Yes, there are sexual abusers that are active today, it would be foolish not to think so, however I believe that these are in the vast minority.

There problem with prosecuting abusers is that obviously the injured party in the case has to make the complaint.
They must also be willing to go to court. That's the law & it is right. However, this proves too hard for many victims to go through, so they don't make official complaints in writing & the offender may never be prosecuted.

There are far more protections in place now then years ago, and thankfully child protection is taken very seriously.
If a person were to apply for a coaching / scout leader job or anything where they need clearance to work with children, gardai can use the information available to stop them getting that job. In the past people had to be convicted, now if there has been informal complaints & information given the gardai can tell potential employers that the person isn't suitable.
While I don't think abuse is rampant, & thankfully I believe it is declining, I believe most people would be shocked at the amount of abuse in this country.

_Whimsical_

It's obviously a lot more common than is recognised and maybe more acceptable too. Look at cases like Jimmy Savile, everyone around him knew it was happening, everyone in the BBC,nurses in hospitals he visited warned children to stay in bed during his visits so as not to get caught alone with him,thousands of people were aware of it. In Rotchdale in the UK thousands of teen girls were routinely raped and abused, even picked up from school by their known abusers, yet police and social workers it was reported too did nothing. In Ireland we recently saw cases where vulnerable children were left in foster care by social workers with known abusers.

We all wring our hands and decry the abuse that went on in the church and their poor response to it but there are a lot of people out there in wider society who knew that and other abuse was happening and did nothing. Whether they didn't know what to do or they didn't register it was such a serious act I don't know. I do wonder if they didn't do anything because it had happened to themselves or in their families and consequently they just thought of it as just "one of those things". It's like the expression "dirty old man" isn't said with the same venom as paedophile. I think for a long time it was just an accepted thing that happened that no one thought of in the realms of crime and no one was willing to really challenge.

Actually it still depressed me that much more people get very upset about historic abuse that went on in the church than do about abuse in general. Every article still written about church abuse ends up on my facebook wall with a volley of understandably angry comments, yet I never see any other equally serious cases discussed or shared or attracting the level of outrage. Where is the ire for BBC staff, or hospital staff or child welfare staff who were also involved in perpetuating the abuse by not taking any measure to stop it.I do wonder a little if the response to it in the church is more about religion than about child welfare and if we still don't take it as seriously as we should. I think that if we look back in 20 years time at our response to child welfare cases of today we'll be appalled at our own responses as a society too.

222233

sillysmiles wrote: »

I understand what you are saying about the difficulty to prove an incident so many years after the fact, but there is no other criminal act that isn't investigated after a number of years.
What you are suggesting is that victims of these crimes are not entitled to the full impact of the law.

As I assume you aren't saying that people who make these claims should automatically be assumed to be lying?

Absolutely not they should never be assumed to be lying but innocent until otherwise proven guilty in a court of law for alleged offenders.

The only concern I have about it is indeed the cases where there are people who make false allegations simply to destroy or for financial reasons. If there were no compensation I wouldn't see any reason for anyone to make a false accusation, thats just my opinion.

nacho libre

I suppose more people feel able to come forward than in the past that's why the perception might be that it is rampant. However as we saw with a recent thread here, the fear that you won't be believed, or that you will split the family, means cases still go unreported. Not to mention the trauma of going to court.

eviltwin

Suppose it depends on how you define rampant. In my experience working in this area, its happening a lot more than most people think. Most of it is lower level stuff but still and all damaging to the victims especially kids.

222233

I'm just curious as to what constituted abuse at the time when many of these alleged crimes would have happened, I'm not talking about the blatant pedophiles but for example if my boss were to brush off me accidentally in work today in some cases that could constitute a form of abuse, were laws different then? And should that be taken into consideration when considering abuse cases today ?

fin12

Yes I think it is rampant, there's a brilliant documentary on Channel 4 , 40d catchup, called the paedophile next door......

The Rape of Lucretia

RobertKK wrote: »

We like to think that it is not as bad now as in the past and that child safety protects children, but given most of it happens within families, is it possible that most child abusers get away with their crimes?

Is is possible that it is the law that is out of step, and that 'abuse' (a rather bias laden term) is the norm for humans, and that it is only 'yesterday' in evolutionary terms that we have suddenly decided that it is abuse and a crime ?

haveringchick

FalconGirl wrote: »

I think it goes on a lot more often than we think, even in this day and age.

Why would "this day and age" make any difference?
The fact is that the vast vast percentage of sexual abuse of children goes on (and always has) in the child's home or a place known to the child,and the perpetrator/s is either (most often) a blood relation of the child, or in some other way related to the child ("step" or in-law).
In any case the perpetrator is almost always welcomed by the child's parents or gaurdians
We just prefer it when the perpetrator is the "stranger " because that's easier to deal with

haveringchick

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Is is possible that it is the law that is out of step, and that 'abuse' (a rather bias laden term) is the norm for humans, and that it is only 'yesterday' in evolutionary terms that we have suddenly decided that it is abuse and a crime ?

That's the paedophiles main defence though.
If it is the norm for humans to sodomise small children then why does the sodomy do such often fatal physical and emotional damage?
If it was normal then why do the vast majority of adults have no desire to sodomise humiliate and denigrate a child?

The Rape of Lucretia

haveringchick wrote: »

That's the paedophiles main defence though.

Which isnt a reason to dismiss the substance of that thesis.

haveringchick wrote: »

If it is the norm for humans to sodomise small children then why does the sodomy do such often fatal physical and emotional damage?
If it was normal then why do the vast majority of adults have no desire to sodomise humiliate and denigrate a child?

Being the norm doesnt mean all will have that disposition. It can be the norm even if only a small proportion do it. Some people do harm of all sorts to other people - this does seem the norm.
The vaste majority of adults have no inclination for homosexuality, yet it is beyond dispute that a significant minority do. Homosexuality is 'normal'.

wexandproud

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Which isnt a reason to dismiss the substance of that thesis.



Being the norm doesnt mean all will have that disposition. It can be the norm even if only a small proportion do it. Some people do harm of all sorts to other people - this does seem the norm.
The vaste majority of adults have no inclination for homosexuality, yet it is beyond dispute that a significant minority do. Homosexuality is 'normal'.

we are as a society just starting to get a handle on what went on and now we have someone saying it could be 'normal '
At least most people who are homosexual would wait until they are sexually aware or mature enough to engage in sexual activity , what chance did the kids have with these vile predators
'.

haveringchick

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Which isnt a reason to dismiss the substance of that thesis.



Being the norm doesnt mean all will have that disposition. It can be the norm even if only a small proportion do it. Some people do harm of all sorts to other people - this does seem the norm.
The vaste majority of adults have no inclination for homosexuality, yet it is beyond dispute that a significant minority do. Homosexuality is 'normal'.

Because I don't have the stomach for it I'm not going to entertain an argument in which, we've accepted that homosexuality is normal, thus, given enough time we will also accept that the rape of infants (it is rape you know, children can't give consent, and no, they can't tempt you, and no, they didn't enjoy being defiled by you) will be accepted as normal.

Canterelle

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Which isnt a reason to dismiss the substance of that thesis.



Being the norm doesnt mean all will have that disposition. It can be the norm even if only a small proportion do it. Some people do harm of all sorts to other people - this does seem the norm.
The vaste majority of adults have no inclination for homosexuality, yet it is beyond dispute that a significant minority do. Homosexuality is 'normal'.

Please do not equate homosexuality with child abuse. Axxhole. Sorry.

fatknacker

If over 25% of the population have experienced sexual abuse, the surely a large percentage are also perpetrators.

nacho libre

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Is is possible that it is the law that is out of step, and that 'abuse' (a rather bias laden term) is the norm for humans, and that it is only 'yesterday' in evolutionary terms that we have suddenly decided that it is abuse and a crime ?

I see where you're going with this, you will conflate homosexual activity with paedophilia, by suggesting both are normal, but at one stage one was seen as abhorrent by many, so maybe the same will happen with paedophilia? well, i don't think so, because there is a crucial difference; homosexual activity between two adults is consensual, sexual activity between a child and adult is not consensual, therefore most people, aside from paedophiles, who act on their thoughts or those who wish to, will see it as abuse. With this in mind the use of the word abuse is not a biased laden term.

haveringchick

Canterelle wrote: »

Please do not equate homosexuality with child abuse. Axxhole. Sorry.

Don't be sorry. I'll say it too. A**hole.

ceadaoin.

222233 wrote: »

I'm just curious as to what constituted abuse at the time when many of these alleged crimes would have happened, I'm not talking about the blatant pedophiles but for example if my boss were to brush off me accidentally in work today in some cases that could constitute a form of abuse, were laws different then? And should that be taken into consideration when considering abuse cases today ?

Look, no one is going to be agonising for years over whether to report someone for brushing off them. It's extremely rare for false accusations to be made and its attitudes like yours that stop people coming forward.

The Rape of Lucretia

Canterelle wrote: »

Please do not equate homosexuality with child abuse. Axxhole. Sorry.

haveringchick wrote: »

Don't be sorry. I'll say it too. A**hole.

I didnt equate them. Please reread my post and understand it, and apologise for the crude name calling.

ceadaoin.

haveringchick wrote: »

That's the paedophiles main defence though.
If it is the norm for humans to sodomise small children then why does the sodomy do such often fatal physical and emotional damage?
If it was normal then why do the vast majority of adults have no desire to sodomise humiliate and denigrate a child?

He will probably say it is the stigma against child abuse in society that causes the emotional damage, not the abuse itself.

Just because abuse is something people do, doesn't make it normal behaviour and it should never be considered as such given the amount of damage it causes.

The Rape of Lucretia

nacho libre wrote: »

I see where you're going with this, you will conflate homosexual activity with paedophilia, by suggesting both are normal, but at one stage one was seen as abhorrent by many, so maybe the same will happen with paedophilia? well, i don't think so, because there is a crucial difference; homosexual activity between two adults is consensual, sexual activity between a child and adult is not consensual, therefore most people, aside from paedophiles, who act on their thoughts or those who wish to, will see it as abuse. With this in mind the use of the word abuse is not a biased laden term.

Thats not really where i was going actually. I was more questioning the use of the word 'normal'. If whatever naturally occurring trait, of which a tendency to child abuse undoubtedly seems to be one throughout the history of mankind, is indeed present in even a small but consistent portion of the population, then we must consider it a normal characteristic of being human. Though in this case, being one such as murder, etc, that the vast majority of the population abhor, civilisation and the rule of law brings us a society where we outlaw it and punish it to protect its potential victims. It still nevertheless remains an characteristic of the specie's instinct. Why, evolutionarily, I dont know.

Ice Maiden

Well there was a time it was considered more normal than it is now - there is less and less acceptance of child sexual abuse as time goes on, so I do not think it will become the norm.

whatismyname

Graces7 wrote: »

One problem is that abused people tend to go on to become abusers.

Please don't...

arayess

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Is is possible that it is the law that is out of step, and that 'abuse' (a rather bias laden term) is the norm for humans, and that it is only 'yesterday' in evolutionary terms that we have suddenly decided that it is abuse and a crime ?

this is an interesting point but I disagree.

That the law has caught up with protecting the person rather than accepting an act as normal.
Certainly it seems more widespread than we'd like to believe but the overriding principal in recent times is to protect the person rather than allow the act.
The consent aspect is absent here and we recognise as a society that you need a certain level of maturity to give consent .
I've never seen an account where a child said that the sex with an adult was pleasant (despite the warblings of David Norris).
Anything in court has always indicated fear and oppression to be the main traits of the act.
Many things like robbery are normal but inflict suffering on other so the point falls down there.

The same with rape , which was probably prevalent or rampant (to use the word in the OP's title) years ago as a common occurrence but the law now recognises that it's an attack on the person and legislates for this. Even now we legislate to protect within marriage.

Canterelle wrote: »

Please do not equate homosexuality with child abuse. Axxhole. Sorry.

they didn't , you jumped on something without reading it.
You should apologise

222233

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Look, no one is going to be agonising for years over whether to report someone for brushing off them. It's extremely rare for false accusations to be made and its attitudes like yours that stop people coming forward.

I was simply asking what constituted abuse at the time, I don't have a bad attitude I just think there may be better ways of dealing with these cases.

Muahahaha

I read before that something like 55% of sexual abuse that happens is perpetrated by someone within the family. What we see getting convicted in the courts may only the tip of the iceberg as many families would deal with allegations 'in-house' rather than getting the Gardai involved.