Tesco Maynooth - Rounding up from €1.75 to €1.77

Lastblackdog

Very minor grievance - more a comment on how machines apply a different logic than us.

A couple of days ago I purchased bread that was €1.75. Since I had a pocket full of loose change I used the self service checkout and loaded it with the smallest coins first in order to reach the required amount.

However, since the machine counts a bit slower than I was feeding, I actually inserted €1.82 to the machine before it told me to stop.

It then gave me back a €0.05 cent piece back. The receipt was clear - Tesco had rounded my bill up to €1.77 by not giving me back the 1 cent pieces I had added in error.

As I said, no biggie. More an observation of machine behaviour.

VincePP

No - error was on your part for putting to many coins in and the machine rounded to change to nearest 5c. Which in this case was 5c, so correct.

The idea to to get 1c & 2c out of circulation and the machine is correct based on what you did.

Lastblackdog

VincePP wrote: »

No - error was on your part for putting to many coins in and the machine rounded to change to nearest 5c. Which in this case was 5c, so correct.

The idea to to get 1c & 2c out of circulation and the machine is correct based on what you did.

I do understand this point. However, the plan for rounding was to the nearest five cent. In this case Tesco rounded to the nearest 7 cent. I did mention that the coin collector was slow and I added coins as indicated to hit the price of the bread - €1.75. However, as it was slow to count I over paid.

Rounding up in this case was wrong. In effect, Tesco "stole" 2 cent from me without justification.

Note: I use the word "stole" here to make a point. If asked they would have been happy to refund the amount taken in error. The point I am making is more about the way machines interpret the rules.

Some day we might have machines deciding on our guilt or innocence, self serve justice, if you will, and we might find ourselves rounded up in error if we don't keep an eye on the rules imposed on them now.

Just to emphasise - this is a light hearted jibe at Tesco self serve computer logic.

njs030

Lastblackdog wrote: »

I do understand this point. However, the plan for rounding was to the nearest five cent. In this case Tesco rounded to the nearest 7 cent. I did mention that the coin collector was slow and I added coins as indicated to hit the price of the bread - €1.75. However, as it was slow to count I over paid.

Rounding up in this case was wrong. In effect, Tesco "stole" 2 cent from me without justification.

Note: I use the word "stole" here to make a point. If asked they would have been happy to refund the amount taken in error. The point I am making is more about the way machines interpret the rules.

Some day we might have machines deciding on our guilt or innocence, self serve justice, if you will, and we might find ourselves rounded up in error if we don't keep an eye on the rules imposed on them now.

Just to emphasise - this is a light hearted jibe at Tesco self serve computer logic.

The computers don't decide themselves, they've been programmed that the smallest amount they can give in change is 5c. The error is yours for not counting your money properly.

snubbleste

I posted this a few weeks ago
I observed in a Tesco self service,
Item cost 69c
Inserted coins total 87c (in order: 2c, 5c, 20c, 20c, 20c, 20c)
Received change 20c

Not sure how that worked. I assume the machine is rounding the change amount, rather than bill amount

Del2005

Lastblackdog wrote: »

Very minor grievance - more a comment on how machines apply a different logic than us.

A couple of days ago I purchased bread that was €1.75. Since I had a pocket full of loose change I used the self service checkout and loaded it with the smallest coins first in order to reach the required amount.

However, since the machine counts a bit slower than I was feeding, I actually inserted €1.82 to the machine before it told me to stop.

It then gave me back a €0.05 cent piece back. The receipt was clear - Tesco had rounded my bill up to €1.77 by not giving me back the 1 cent pieces I had added in error.

As I said, no biggie. More an observation of machine behaviour.

Maybe the machines are intelligent, when they gave you the "invitation to treat" at €1.75 and you over paid they assumed that you wanted to pay more and since they can only give change in 5c they increased the price.

Lastblackdog

snubbleste wrote: »

I posted this a few weeks ago
I observed in a Tesco self service,
Item cost 69c
Inserted coins total 87c (in order: 2c, 5c, 20c, 20c, 20c, 20c)
Received change 20c

Not sure how that worked. I assume the machine is rounding the change amount, rather than bill amount

Very good observation. You are probably correct.

Like you I fed the machine with the smallest coins first so my last one was also a 20 cent piece.

foggy_lad

VincePP wrote: »

No - error was on your part for putting to many coins in and the machine rounded to change to nearest 5c. Which in this case was 5c, so correct.

The idea to to get 1c & 2c out of circulation and the machine is correct based on what you did.

The error is in the store, they are rounding the change which is incorrect, they are supposed to be rounding the total of the items bought.

Lastblackdog

foggy_lad wrote: »

The error is in the store, they are rounding the change which is incorrect, they are supposed to be rounding the total of the items bought.

I believe that you are correct. What they did was confiscate my coins where as the deal is all about rounding the total price to the nearest 5 cent.

njs030

foggy_lad wrote: »

The error is in the store, they are rounding the change which is incorrect, they are supposed to be rounding the total of the items bought.

The machines aren't giving out change lower than 5c. It's really not hard to understand and it's the customers choice to put in too much.

The only thing the store could do is put up a sign explaining that rounding means no change lower than 5c will be given.

VincePP

Lastblackdog wrote: »

I believe that you are correct. What they did was confiscate my coins where as the deal is all about rounding the total price to the nearest 5 cent.

If you have the inability to understand the process of eliminating 1c and 2c coins and 2c is so important to you, then either
A - use a card
Or
B - don't use the self service till.

Lastblackdog

VincePP wrote: »

If you have the inability to understand the process of eliminating 1c and 2c coins and 2c is so important to you, then either
A - use a card
Or
B - don't use the self service till.

Actually, I do understand the concept and the process of eliminating 1c and 2c coins as it was explained a few months ago. That was, when a total price ended up on an amount that was not divisible by 5 then it would be rounded either up or down depending on which it was closest to.

If a store like Tesco are free to confiscate extra 1c and 2c coins why are I not free to have loaded €1.73 into the Self Serve machine and hit a button that is marked "close enough". After all, what's good for Tesco should be good for me.

Del2005

Lastblackdog wrote: »

Actually, I do understand the concept and the process of eliminating 1c and 2c coins as it was explained a few months ago. That was, when a total price ended up on an amount that was not divisible by 5 then it would be rounded either up or down depending on which it was closest to.

If a store like Tesco are free to confiscate extra 1c and 2c coins why are I not free to have loaded €1.73 into the Self Serve machine and hit a button that is marked "close enough". After all, what's good for Tesco should be good for me.

They asked €1.75 and they where offered more, if you want to offer €1.73 you have to go to a person at a till and most likely will get it for €1.73

VincePP

Lastblackdog wrote: »

Actually, I do understand the concept and the process of eliminating 1c and 2c coins as it was explained a few months ago. That was, when a total price ended up on an amount that was not divisible by 5 then it would be rounded either up or down depending on which it was closest to.

If a store like Tesco are free to confiscate extra 1c and 2c coins why are I not free to have loaded €1.73 into the Self Serve machine and hit a button that is marked "close enough". After all, what's good for Tesco should be good for me.

From your post it seems you don't have an iota of a clue.

Its the change that is rounded, however as most (99.999% imo) people won't pay an odd couple of cent over an even amount, the advertising for the system is using what most people would use.

It is dreadfully simple to understand

Jayop

If the op had put in one more cent the machine would have gave them back 10c.

Lastblackdog

VincePP wrote: »

From your post it seems you don't have an iota of a clue.

Its the change that is rounded, however as most (99.999% imo) people won't pay an odd couple of cent over an even amount, the advertising for the system is using what most people would use.

It is dreadfully simple to understand

Imagine the situation where I went up to a staffed check out point and, when told the amount (€1.75) I laid out all the change I had in my pocket as I am not very familiar with Euro coins having just moved here from another country.

The cashier then proceeds to count out the exact right amount from the coins offered but, as an after thought, notices that I have a couple of 1c coins so she reaches out and takes them as well. I then collect the remainder of my coins having paid €1.77 for an item priced at €1.75.

A couple of cent here and there can add up to a very high sum when you count the vast number of transactions carried out at a major supermarket like Tesco.

goldenhoarde

OP as the machine cannot dispense 1 or 2 cents anymore this is the correct change as seven cents rounds to five. The seven is whalll you overpaid and was due as change. The order you insert the coins has a part to play.
Also if you go to a cashier you can still get the actual correct change.
Really should not be a big gain for the shops. However if they start pushing prices to the nearest five or ten cent point, then no doubt the consumer will loose out as they will round up rather than down I would think

NiallBoo

notjustsweet wrote: »

The computers don't decide themselves, they've been programmed that the smallest amount they can give in change is 5c. The error is yours for not counting your money properly.

Nah, that's the programmer's error for basing the change on the amount given rather than on the total in relation to the amount given.

Understandable as it will bleed tesco a few cent here and there but it's the kind of very small loss that's worth writing-off for the savings from using the machines.

Incidentally it'll become a moot point as the number of 1/2c coins in circulation drops.

dr.fuzzenstein

VincePP wrote: »

If you have the inability to understand the process of eliminating 1c and 2c coins and 2c is so important to you, then either
A - use a card
Or
B - don't use the self service till.

It is you who hasn't got the logicical capability to understand the process.
Rounding up and down is not compulsory and one can opt out. It is the price that is rounded, not the change. The till should be capable to return 1 and 2 cent coins. Since the price was at the 5 cent mark, that should have been the price.
Program the machines to round up and down the purchase price and stock them with a moderate amount of 1 and 2 cent coins.
Not OP's fault, sloppy programming by Tesco! Its very alarming that this thread reads like After Hours.

dudara

Taken from rounding.ie

Change will be rounded up or down to the nearest five cent...

Rounding is only applied on change given on the final till amount, not on individual prices

Lastblackdog

A major supermarket like Tesco will have about 2.5 million transactions per week. Now imagine that just 1% of these are skimmed for 2c each.

That is 25,000 x 0.02 = €500.00 per week or €26,000 per year.

Small change to Tesco but a nice donation to a charity.

With all due respects to Tesco, my comments are about sloppy logic in programming and is not meant to suggest that they are deliberately skimming money from their customers.

galljga1

Lastblackdog wrote: »

A major supermarket like Tesco will have about 2.5 million transactions per week. Now imagine that just 1% of these are skimmed for 2c each.

That is 25,000 x 0.02 = €500.00 per week or €26,000 per year.

Small change to Tesco but a nice donation to a charity.

With all due respects to Tesco, my comments are about sloppy logic in programming and is not meant to suggest that they are deliberately skimming money from their customers.

Similarly they could lose €26,000 per year if they rounded down 2c per transaction.

Jayop

Lastblackdog wrote: »

A major supermarket like Tesco will have about 2.5 million transactions per week. Now imagine that just 1% of these are skimmed for 2c each.

That is 25,000 x 0.02 = €500.00 per week or €26,000 per year.

Small change to Tesco but a nice donation to a charity.

With all due respects to Tesco, my comments are about sloppy logic in programming and is not meant to suggest that they are deliberately skimming money from their customers.

Why can't people understand that roughly half of the 2.5m transactions will see them lose 1 or 2 cents too? The gain or loss for the stores balance out.

Lastblackdog

Jayop wrote: »

Why can't people understand that roughly half of the 2.5m transactions will see them lose 1 or 2 cents too? The gain or loss for the stores balance out.

Actually I do understand the concept of mutual rounding up or down depending on the actual value. This tread is not a comment on the normal distribution curve of cash tendered to a person. Rather it is a comment on how machine logic functions when too much money is tendered.

There is a separate question about the distribution of purchases using cash where the total value of the transaction gets rounded up or rounded down. People tend to use cash for small purchases such as when buying one or two items only and cards when buying more.

If many items are prices at €x.99 then one or two items only are purchased the amount will always round up. It is likely that major retailers like Tesco will have analysed this before they agreed to take part. When money/profit is involved, it is a safe bet to assume that the house always wins.

dr.fuzzenstein

dudara wrote: »

Taken from rounding.ie

Ah, then I was indeed wrong. Disregard and carry on...

ohnonotgmail

Lastblackdog wrote: »

Actually I do understand the concept of mutual rounding up or down depending on the actual value. This tread is not a comment on the normal distribution curve of cash tendered to a person. Rather it is a comment on how machine logic functions when too much money is tendered.

The machine acted correctly. it is the change that it rounded not the amount.

Lastblackdog wrote: »

There is a separate question about the distribution of purchases using cash where the total value of the transaction gets rounded up or rounded down. People tend to use cash for small purchases such as when buying one or two items only and cards when buying more.

If many items are prices at €x.99 then one or two items only are purchased the amount will always round up. It is likely that major retailers like Tesco will have analysed this before they agreed to take part. When money/profit is involved, it is a safe bet to assume that the house always wins.

well except if somebody buys 3 items at 99c then get an extra 2c back. if they buy 4 items at 99c they get an extra 1c back. so the amount will not always round up.

Lastblackdog

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

well except if somebody buys 3 items at 99c then get an extra 2c back. if they buy 4 items at 99c they get an extra 1c back. so the amount will not always round up.

You seem to have missed my point. Probably too subtle for you. I was suggesting that the distribution curve would be skewed towards one and two items purchases when using cash and for three or more the is a more likelihood of cards being used.

Without the actual data we can't know. That said, if Tesco want me to analyse the data for them I would be happy to do so. Analysing vast amounts of data is something I am qualified to do.

ohnonotgmail

Lastblackdog wrote: »

You seem to have missed my point. Probably too subtle for you. I was suggesting that the distribution curve would be skewed towards one and two items purchases when using cash and for three or more the is a more likelihood of cards being used.

Without the actual data we can't know. That said, if Tesco want me to analyse the data for them I would be happy to do so. Analysing vast amounts of data is something I am qualified to do.

the distribution curve on the number of items is irrelevant. the distribution on the mod 5 value of purchases is. and i cannot see how this could be possibly be skewed towards the 1 and 2c end. Most items do not cost 99c. most sales are not 1 or two items.

Lastblackdog

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

the distribution curve on the number of items is irrelevant. the distribution on the mod 5 value of purchases is. and i cannot see how this could be possibly be skewed towards the 1 and 2c end. Most items do not cost 99c. most sales are not 1 or two items.

Great, show me the data to support your premise. I only suggested a hypothesis, you are claiming fact.

ohnonotgmail

Lastblackdog wrote: »

Great, show me the data to support your premise. I only suggested a hypothesis, you are claiming fact.

Simple observation will tell you i am right. Do you really "vast amounts of data" to tell you that most items do not cost 99c? If that side of your hypotheses is wrong then the number of items purchased is moot.

Lastblackdog

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Simple observation will tell you i am right. Do you really "vast amounts of data" to tell you that most items do not cost 99c? If that side of your hypotheses is wrong then the number of items purchased is moot.

I believe I said that many items were priced at €x.99 and not most.

Jayop

Christ this is painful stuff. Unfollow thread immediately.

ohnonotgmail

Lastblackdog wrote: »

I believe I said that many items were priced at €x.99 and not most.

many items are priced at 99c you are correct but many many many many more are not so the 99c items have very little bearing on the overall result.

Lastblackdog

Thank you all for your contributions. What is interesting is just how many ways we are able to view one simple transaction.

I can honestly say that I got my 2c worth.

PS: Just returned from Tesco having purchased two items with a total price of €2.79. Just so we can finally put this discussion to bed I paid with a debit card. ;-)

MadDog76

I have a friend with a huge jar of 1/2 cent coins, he always uses the self-service till and purposely puts 3 cents more than the cost of his shopping into the machine ensuring he gets 5 cents back in change, ie. he makes 2 cents on every transaction.

His plan is to eventually empty his 1/2 cent coin jar and fill up a seperate jar with 5 cent coins to cash in ........ a bit pedantic but it keeps him happy/busy!

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

MadDog76 wrote: »

I have a friend with a huge jar of 1/2 cent coins, he always uses the self-service till and purposely puts 3 cents more than the cost of his shopping into the machine ensuring he gets 5 cents back in change, ie. he makes 2 cents on every transaction.

His plan is to eventually empty his 1/2 cent coin jar and fill up a seperate jar with 5 cent coins to cash in ........ a bit pedantic but it keeps him happy/busy!

He can't put an extra 3 cents in at every purchase and get 5 cent change. It would depend on the value of each sale total whether that would work or not. Or are my maths finally failing me?

ohnonotgmail

Ezekiel Damp Sprinkler wrote: »

He can't put an extra 3 cents in at every purchase and get 5 cent change. It would depend on the value of each sale total whether that would work or not. Or are my maths finally failing me?

they're not.

MadDog76

Ezekiel Damp Sprinkler wrote: »

He can't put an extra 3 cents in at every purchase and get 5 cent change. It would depend on the value of each sale total whether that would work or not. Or are my maths finally failing me?

He has some kind of system worked out because every time I go to his house I notice his 1/2 cent coin jar is getting emptier while his 5 cent coin jar is getting fuller!

Jayop

If something comes to 51c and the friend purposely puts in 53c rather than the correct amount he'll get 5c back. So rather than losing a cent he's gaining 2. That's a massive 3c swing.

MadDog76

Jayop wrote: »

If something comes to 51c and the friend purposely puts in 53c rather than the correct amount he'll get 5c back. So rather than losing a cent he's gaining 2. That's a massive 3c swing.

Yeah, I guess that's what he's doing alright ......... so I assume he's only doing it on the transactions that suit his system ........ in any case, he's playing the long-game and winning!

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

ohnonotgmail

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

the rounding is done on the change is it not?

MadDog76

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

the rounding is done on the change is it not?

Yeah you're right, rounding up/down is not done on the cost of the transaction ......... it's only done on the change to be returned to the customer.

As Jay said, putting 53c into the machine for something costing 51c would result in 5c change ........ or the customer getting the product 3c cheaper than advertised ....... happy days!

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

ohnonotgmail

MadDog76 wrote: »

Yeah you're right, rounding up/down is not done on the cost of the transaction ......... it's only done on the change to be returned to the customer.

As Jay said, putting 53c into the machine for something costing 51c would result in 5c change ........ or the customer getting the product 3c cheaper than advertised ....... happy days!

your maths is not correct. if the price is 51c and he puts in 53c he will get back nothing. he needs to put in 54c to get back 5c in change.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Greenmachine

I have noticed that tesco has got much worse lately for giving out more small coins lately. What ever about 1c and 2c coins, the self service machines in the stores I frequent seem to have got rid of 10c and 20c coins and in some case 50c coins nothing worse getting 80-90 spat out at you in 5c, but guessing what no more 1c or 2c. My penny jar has never been fuller since they got rid of the 1c and 2c coins.

MadDog76

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

your maths is not correct. if the price is 51c and he puts in 53c he will get back nothing. he needs to put in 54c to get back 5c in change.

Well that's not true, I just did it in SuperValu about 15 minutes ago and I got the 5c back.

ohnonotgmail

MadDog76 wrote: »

Well that's not true, I just did it in SuperValu about 15 minutes ago and I got the 5c back.

if you are due change of 2c you will get nothing back. if they gave you 5c instead of 2cn then they did it wrong.

MadDog76

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Depends which order you put the coins in, put the 1c's and 2c's in first then finish with a 5c, 10c, 20c or whatever coin is needed to bring it past the 51c.

MadDog76

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

if you are due change of 2c you will get nothing back. if they gave you 5c instead of 2cn then they did it wrong.

The machine did it wrong?

The machine is programmed and my friend obviously works his system around said program.