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Public transport strikes

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    #62
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    cdebru wrote: »
    Read my other posts, how would public opinion make any difference,

    A strike with popular support can go on forever. In one that doesn't have the support of the public, such as this one, it's more difficult for employees to hold their nerve. I'd be pretty sure they'll end up settling for a fraction of what they asked for.


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    #63
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    n97 mini wrote: »
    A strike with popular support can go on forever. In one that doesn't have the support of the public, such as this one, it's more difficult for employees to hold their nerve. I'd be pretty sure they'll end up settling for a fraction of what they asked for.

    Any strike can go on forever, however the biggest issue I'd imagine preventing a strike from going on forever is loss of earnings rather than any public support or lack of.


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    #64
    snickerpuss
    Registered Users Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭snickerpuss


    PeadarCo wrote: »
    The LUAS drivers have great pay and conditions for the amount of qualifications as it is. Now a smart driver could take advantage of that and do a part time course to enable them to look beyond the LUAS as a resource of employment. Many people have to do part time courses to stand still in there area's of employment IT being a prime example.

    This is an aside but just want to note that if you do shift work with different hours every week (from early morning to midnight and beyond) there's no possibility of undertaking any courses whatsoever unless they are online only. It's the same with other CIE and shift workers. Management are not going to organise everyone else's shifts around you (particularly of everyone then had days/times they couldn't do) so it just doesn't happen. Pity really but nothing to do with them being smart.


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    #65
    BreadnBuddha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,311 ✭✭✭BreadnBuddha


    Tram drivers have one job to do. Drive the bloody tram.

    Your experience may increase, but it's worth nothing more than anyone else who can do the job from day one. You can either do the job, or you can't.

    It pays what it pays. Don't like it? Go and do something else. Don't hold the public or government to ransom. Dicks.


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    #66
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    amdublin wrote: »
    We will have to agree to disagree. From my experience amd conversations no one wants those drivers to get 50% rise.
    1-3% fine.

    Unfortunately for them they don't get to award any settlement, it won't be decided by the people you talk to unless they are transdev or RPA management.


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    #67
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    n97 mini wrote: »
    A strike with popular support can go on forever. In one that doesn't have the support of the public, such as this one, it's more difficult for employees to hold their nerve. I'd be pretty sure they'll end up settling for a fraction of what they asked for.

    Nah its all about the money, who can hold out longer, the employees with reduced or no income or the operator and the owner. No strike can go on forever, either the workers fold or the company does, take the UK miners strike, the UK government had prepared for it and despite public support the strike eventually collapsed.

    I'm sure it will be a fraction as well, I'm sure luas drivers will be happy with a fraction it just depends what that fraction is 9/10 or 1/10 etc.


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    #68
    PeadarCo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭PeadarCo


    snickerpuss wrote: »
    This is an aside but just want to note that if you do shift work with different hours every week (from early morning to midnight and beyond) there's no possibility of undertaking any courses whatsoever unless they are online only. It's the same with other CIE and shift workers. Management are not going to organise everyone else's shifts around you (particularly of everyone then had days/times they couldn't do) so it just doesn't happen. Pity really but nothing to do with them being smart.

    Then why not do the online courses. There's an increasing amount of them available even through your normal/traditional colleges and universities. It gives people the opportunity not just LUAS drivers but parents with young children and others who may not have the time to attend lectures after work or weekend.


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    #69
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    PeadarCo wrote: »
    Then why not do the online courses. There's an increasing amount of them available even through your normal/traditional colleges and universities. It gives people the opportunity not just LUAS drivers but parents with young children and others who may not have the time to attend lectures after work or weekend.

    Why should they do a course ? I know this is a bizarre idea but maybe they like driving trams. Looking for improvement in terms and conditions doesn't mean you are unhappy with the basic elements of the job.


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    #70
    PeadarCo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭PeadarCo


    cdebru wrote: »
    Why should they do a course ? I know this is a bizarre idea but maybe they like driving trams. Looking for improvement in terms and conditions doesn't mean you are unhappy with the basic elements of the job.

    What are they unhappy with? Other than we want more money? they've done a terrible job communicating their issues. All they've done is make themselves look greedy.


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    #71
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    PeadarCo wrote: »
    What are they unhappy with? Other than we want more money? they've done a terrible job communicating their issues. All they've done is make themselves look greedy.


    Showing a little naivety there, do you think workers have the same access to media as employers and the government? There has been a huge amount of spin on this and it has been unsurprisingly all in one direction, I agree they have been made to look greedy I don't agree they have done that completely to themselves, a simple search would show you for example tables comparing luas drivers to other transport workers are at best wrong, and at worse show the media is lying now or were lying previously. The media has taken the largest possible percentage increase, and made it look like the drivers want it all tomorrow, its a 5 year deal they are looking for, you take 2 or 3% a year and aggregate it over 5 years it could look excessive under the right spin.


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    #72
    PeadarCo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭PeadarCo


    cdebru wrote: »
    Showing a little naivety there, do you think workers have the same access to media as employers and the government? There has been a huge amount of spin on this and it has been unsurprisingly all in one direction, I agree they have been made to look greedy I don't agree they have done that completely to themselves, a simple search would show you for example tables comparing luas drivers to other transport workers are at best wrong, and at worse show the media is lying now or were lying previously. The media has taken the largest possible percentage increase, and made it look like the drivers want it all tomorrow, its a 5 year deal they are looking for, you take 2 or 3% a year and aggregate it over 5 years it could look excessive under the right spin.

    Theres this thing called social media a very democratic way of putting out a message. Unless your advocating killing people or the like(Which drivers aren't) there's nothing stopping them creating a Facebook page for example on which to communicate their views. The fact they haven't says a lot about what there reasons.

    1-3% aren't normally that much over inflation so for most people so would be reasonable in that context.

    On the comparison to other transport operators, how are the tables wrong? If the drivers know they are been misrepresented why not go onto social media and demonstrate this? They can even control who posts on social media on their pages so its a perfect way of putting out their angle of the situation.


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    #73
    amdublin
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 20,650 CMod ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    Exactly what I was going to say PeadarCo.

    There are some very interesting graphics being shared on facebook comparing nurses/guards to luas drivers. Amount of college/training needed and starting salaries etc.
    There are also ones going around showing comparison between luas drivers and other light weight rail drivers salaries.
    Makes for interesting reading. And is showing clearly the luas drivers ridiculousness imo.

    If the luas drivers feel these are wrong how difficult would it be to make their own ones and share them around.
    I wonder would the public back them and share them the way they are sharing the nurse v luas driver ones?


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    #74
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    PeadarCo wrote: »
    Theres this thing called social media a very democratic way of putting out a message. Unless your advocating killing people or the like(Which drivers aren't) there's nothing stopping them creating a Facebook page for example on which to communicate their views. The fact they haven't says a lot about what there reasons.

    1-3% aren't normally that much over inflation so for most people so would be reasonable in that context.

    On the comparison to other transport operators, how are the tables wrong? If the drivers know they are been misrepresented why not go onto social media and demonstrate this? They can even control who posts on social media on their pages so its a perfect way of putting out their angle of the situation.



    First off , why bother ? Like I said public opinion is nice and all but wins jack s***.


    3% a year over 5 years is 16% odd it can be spun as a 16% pay increase for example.

    Couple of points of top of my head
    The claim is parity with heavy rail but the table shows luas drivers earning 10k more than Irish rail if they secured the pay rise , figure shows DB 4 day week or less shift but compares it to LUAS pay with shift for 5 day, and both are feet not the figures for Irish rail and DB/BE during most recent disputes at those companies so they are lying now or they were lying then or both.


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    #75
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,840 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    People want it resolved end of the day they don't give a sh1t if the luas drivers get a 50% pay cut or a 50% pay rise as long as the flipping luas turns up in the morning.
    Oh I totally disagree, I would like to see these ignorant self entitled morons lose their jobs! This isnt dragons den where they are disagreeing over 5% and they will reach a compromise. Its 50% they are disagreeing over.

    My opinion is, they think how will I ever afford the stuff I had during the boom, how will I afford my own home? people working far tougher jobs and far more qualified are asking the same question, so up and leave if it cant provide you with what you want, thats what normally happens.

    But when you get the "stick it to da man" types,which I am sure 90%+ of transdev employees are, what can you expect. Kenny had it right about the moaners here. I really hope Transdev simply shut it down and take any pay increase off the table. Whats the plan if Transdev back down substantially, those jokers looking for the same in 5 years time? Lunacy like this needs to be dealt with now...

    In terms of the operating contract and Transdev being fined, this was a glaring mistake in the contract IMO... Then again the situation is so outrageous, I am not sure it was easily foreseeable for whomever drew up the contract...


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    #76
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    PeadarCo wrote: »
    Theres this thing called social media a very democratic way of putting out a message. Unless your advocating killing people or the like(Which drivers aren't) there's nothing stopping them creating a Facebook page for example on which to communicate their views. The fact they haven't says a lot about what there reasons.

    1-3% aren't normally that much over inflation so for most people so would be reasonable in that context.

    I doubt people who work in the luas are gonna bother using the lowest form of communication to bother explaining their case expecially when unlike here where theres moderation things go to maximum saltyness in less than a minute.

    As for the pay claim I dont know about 50% but I wouldnt be suprised if this was a pulled out of ones arse number and not reflective of their actual claim. As things go theres more and more strikes happening in general now that that people are reaching their limits expecially with wages been stagnant for nearly a decade in many places.


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    #77
    PeadarCo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭PeadarCo


    Infini2 wrote: »
    I doubt people who work in the luas are gonna bother using the lowest form of communication to bother explaining their case expecially when unlike here where theres moderation things go to maximum saltyness in less than a minute.

    As for the pay claim I dont know about 50% but I wouldnt be suprised if this was a pulled out of ones arse number and not reflective of their actual claim. As things go theres more and more strikes happening in general now that that people are reaching their limits expecially with wages been stagnant for nearly a decade in many places.

    I'd have thought social media would be ideal because they can delete posts they disagree with and block relevant posters. On their Facebook they effectively would set the rules. You may view is a lowly form of communication its a very effective way of putting out a message. There's a reason authoritarian regimes clamp down on social media.

    About the pay claim no one from SIPTU has come out to publicly disagree with it. At best they're saying its only 10% per year compounded over 5 years. A 10% payrise is still massive. I don't see why theres are reason for the pay increase. The impression I get is that most of the drivers wouldn't be able to leave tomorrow and obtain a similar wage in another job and its not as if they on anything near the minimum wage.

    The best arguement and I think the right one is they want to treated like CIE workers. Basically an organisation which is a byword for waste and is gradually being forced by EU competition rules into the 21st century. By being forced to put public contracts out to tender. LUAS and the upcoming Dublin Bus routes are just the start. Its important that the public are seen to get value for money.


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    #78
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,986 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    PeadarCo wrote: »
    I'd have thought social media would be ideal because they can delete posts they disagree with and block relevant posters. On their Facebook they effectively would set the rules. You may view is a lowly form of communication its a very effective way of putting out a message. There's a reason authoritarian regimes clamp down on social media.

    About the pay claim no one from SIPTU has come out to publicly disagree with it. At best they're saying its only 10% per year compounded over 5 years. A 10% payrise is still massive. I don't see why theres are reason for the pay increase. The impression I get is that most of the drivers wouldn't be able to leave tomorrow and obtain a similar wage in another job and its not as if they on anything near the minimum wage.

    The best arguement and I think the right one is they want to treated like CIE workers. Basically an organisation which is a byword for waste and is gradually being forced by EU competition rules into the 21st century. By being forced to put public contracts out to tender. LUAS and the upcoming Dublin Bus routes are just the start. Its important that the public are seen to get value for money.

    what "public contracts" and what "value for money"

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #79
    StupidLikeAFox
    Registered Users Posts: 7,698 ✭✭✭StupidLikeAFox


    cdebru wrote: »
    3% a year over 5 years is 16% odd it can be spun as a 16% pay increase for example.

    Hey, are these actually the figures or are you using this as an example?

    What is the basis for looking for the extra money? I thought it was parity with Irish Rail workers - is that correct?


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