Problem with engine re-build on Subaru legacy

selous

Recently I had the misfortune of engine failure on my Legacy diesel, I got it rebuilt by a Subaru dealer which included,
New short motor,
Reconditioned injectors,
Reconditioned cylinder heads,
New clutch,
New dual mass fly wheel,

The problem is, after a long drive 40 min or more, when the car is turned off it wont start again, it takes on average of 7 turns of the key, after each turn the conk out has a serious vibrate.

The car has been back to the dealer twice, they say they cant find any fault, haven't a clue what it is, nothing is showing on the diagnostics, so they cant fix it. I drove it for an hour and called to the garage and gave them the key, it didn't start, so they have seen the problem and acknowledge it's there.

It's an everyday occurrence, as home-work-home is an hour drive each way, It's getting bloody annoying now, as it's been going on for almost 2 months now.

The guess' I'm getting off people are, sensors, injectors, or the fly wheel, would a problem with these show on a diagnostics scan??
If they cant fix it, should/would I be entitled to a partial refund, I'd prefer it fixed though as not knowing what it is, how much it would cost to fix?

Anyone ever have such a problem or hear of same?

bear1

Before I give my opinion, does the car struggle to start when its fully up to temp? I.e. Works perfectly when the engine is cold but once its up to temp the issue starts?
Forget the flywheel theory as this wont stop a car starting..

Toyotafanboi

bear1 wrote: »

Before I give my opinion, does the car struggle to start when its fully up to temp? I.e. Works perfectly when the engine is cold but once its up to temp the issue starts?
Forget the flywheel theory as this wont stop a car starting..

It could...

selous

Yes, starts no problem first thing in the morning, short trips, drive for 30min re starts first time, just after the long drive, turn it off, wont start, leave for 5-10min still doesn't start first time,

Veloce

Crank sensor?

Renegade Mechanic

If the crank pickup was done at the flywheel, then damage to a flywheel tooth could indeed cause this, though as you say, it's when the car is warm. Now, the engine has been completely disassembled and reassembled, so there are an awful lot of causes, and the garage knows this....

However, let's pretend it wasn't. Typically speaking the faults that cause hard starting when warm are as follows.

1: Coolant temp sensor. They tend to start sending wrong signals, but not signals bad enough to trigger an EML, before going altogether.

2: The temp sensor section of the MAF sensor in the air intake. Again, similar to the coolant sensor, signals can be off without triggering an EML (Thinking the air is -6 when it's 10 degrees, for example).

3: Crank sensor. These can sometimes wear out, in any vehicle, and lose what's left of their magnetism when the engine heats up, making starting when warm extremely difficult. It may have been damaged during the job, or simply ageing and is now going, simply out of Murphy's Law..

They're the more common causes and require monitoring of sensor parameters, rather than simple "read fault codes" options on diagnostic machines.

In your case, it could be anything
You're going to have to put the foot down, and they're going to have to get stuck in. It could be as simple as a forgotten vacuum/boost pipe!

selous

Re Crank sensor.

I haven't touched or messed with this engine, thought i'd leave this to the experts, and they haven't a clue, (they say) would that show up on a diagnostics, they say nothing has shown.

Colser

What exactly is the dealer saying about this problem selous and how the hell are you keeping it civil when dealing with them at this stage?

selous

Colser wrote: »

What exactly is the dealer saying about this problem selous and how the hell are you keeping it civil when dealing with them at this stage?

Oh they're suggesting it's the ignition switch, suggesting things that has nothing to do with the stuff they done, but they say they haven't a clue, they're seriously fobbing me off I feel.

Renegade Mechanic

selous wrote: »

Re Crank sensor.

I haven't touched or messed with this engine, thought i'd leave this to the experts, and they haven't a clue, (they say) would that show up on a diagnostics, they say nothing has shown.

Depends on the diagnosis. If they spent over an hour looking at all the parameters - while knowing what they should be - and checking that, then they could find something.

If they simply hit "scan for faults", then they wouldn't see much..

But that's not to say they haven't gone through the engine bay with a fine toothed comb. I can only imagine how frustrating that is. And I know first hand how frustrating it is when a fault develops in a car while you're working on it,you have no idea of the cause and you just can't pin it down


But, at the end of the day, it's on their hands, so they have to take it on the chin and find out. Give you a car if necessary.

Colser

selous wrote: »

Oh they're suggesting it's the ignition switch, suggesting things that has nothing to do with the stuff they done, but they say they haven't a clue, they're seriously fobbing me off I feel.

So you bought the car new from them,got it serviced on time and always with them,paid huge money when it packed up to get it back on the road and now when its giving trouble as soon as you get it back theyre fobbing you off...honestly Id drive it in to them and demand a car from them until its sorted.

bear1

Something suggests to me it could be the crankshaft sensor.
When it fails you can start and drive no problem until it gets hot and wont start until It has cooled down.
Re the flywheel, do you mean where its connected via the starter?
Just seems strange it would happen.
What about the fuel pump?

bear1

Just noticed you said recon'd injectors.
I wonder if they coded them correctly as this would cause a world of issues if they weren't.
Id want to see evidence that they were indeed reconditioned by a reputable company, I believe they are Bosch injectors.
It might be worthwhile getting an injector test done too.
You could be looking at a fuel issue, was a full service done as well? New fuel filter for example.
Is the car down on power? Smoking?

Damokc

Crank sensors. I've a Vectra and it struggles to start sometimes. 7 times out of 10 it will not start first time. But like Sex Panther, it starts second time, every time. I've been told its crank sensors that need to line up as it were, to tell the engine the its in time. If they're a fraction out it thinks the timing is off and wont start. I presume when it's turned off for a few seconds and you stop, they realign and it starts?

selous

bear1 wrote: »

Just noticed you said recon'd injectors.
I wonder if they coded them correctly as this would cause a world of issues if they weren't.
Id want to see evidence that they were indeed reconditioned by a reputable company, I believe they are Bosch injectors.
It might be worthwhile getting an injector test done too.
You could be looking at a fuel issue, was a full service done as well? New fuel filter for example.
Is the car down on power? Smoking?

A full service was done 2 months before the engine went, the injectors were done by the only Subaru approved place in Ireland (it seems), I think they're piazzo (?) injectors, they cost E1000 to recondition..

Damokc wrote: »

Crank sensors. I've a Vectra and it struggles to start sometimes. 7 times out of 10 it will not start first time. But like Sex Panther, it starts second time, every time. I've been told its crank sensors that need to line up as it were, to tell the engine the its in time. If they're a fraction out it thinks the timing is off and wont start. I presume when it's turned off for a few seconds and you stop, they realign and it starts?

Mine is only after a long (1 hour) drive, starts first time any other time, but not after the long drive, it's an average of 7 times before it starts, the shake it gives when it doesn't catch, seems to be getting worse too. it can be 20min or so before it starts first time after the long drive.

bear1

Ok but when the engine was overhauled was the service re done?
What caused the engine to fail btw?

selous

Colser wrote: »

So you bought the car new from them,got it serviced on time and always with them,paid huge money when it packed up to get it back on the road and now when its giving trouble as soon as you get it back theyre fobbing you off...honestly Id drive it in to them and demand a car from them until its sorted.

Yep, bought off them new, serviced off them every time, E6k to fix the busted engine with them,
It was in with them for 3 days, I had a loan car for that time, "funny" thing is, they said they drove it to try and get to see the problem, (but I reset the trip computer when it went in), they didn't go too far, being as the guy, when I was there said he'd take it for a spin as he was going out then. I know where he went, and there was no mileage put on the car after his return journey,

canhefixit

Get a crank sensor either from a breakers or if your local factors has generic they arent that expensive and they are an easy fit, worth a go and something else you can defo rule out either way

If it dosent work change sensors back and sell your new one on ebay so your down nothing but have ruled one thing out

A bit of messing yeah but sometimes its worth it just to get problem sorted

H.E. Pennypacker

Does it smoke on restart?

They're Denso injectors btw

selous

bear1 wrote: »

Ok but when the engine was overhauled was the service re done?
What caused the engine to fail btw?

Glow plugs, fuel pipes,
It cost almost me E6k, (Subaru supplied the short motor and cylinder heads free)
According to them, the diesel had no lubricating properties, messed up the injectors, created a blockage in a lubrication chamber, which in turn the con rod broke.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057530257

A thread I started when I broke.

selous

H.E. Pennypacker wrote: »

Does it smoke on restart?

They're Denso injectors btw

Yes, Denso, (Ta)

No, it doesn't smoke, when I have foot on the clutch, but if I keep key turned and foot on the accelerator it does, (when im P****d off with it)

H.E. Pennypacker

Another possibility is a faulty or badly earthed coolant temperature sensor. It won't necessarily show a fault on a scan as they are often designed to fail in a way that sends a default signal to the ECU so that the car will still run. Often the car will smoke on a hot start as it'll be running way too rich on startup. Unfortunately yours isn't showing that particular symptom but it'd still be one to investigate, especially on a newly installed engine.

How does it drive once it runs? It'd expect incorrectly coded injectors to show way more problems that just a hot start issue.

Has it kicked off any injector recalibrations since you got it back? Have they run to completion? (mine wouldn't unless the A/C was switched off as the compressor interfered with engine load)

Special Circumstances

selous wrote: »

Yes, Denso, (Ta)

No, it doesn't smoke, when I have foot on the clutch, but if I keep key turned and foot on the accelerator it does, (when im P****d off with it)

Denso may be the brand, but I believe piezo injectors is the information you were trying to convey. (Versus "traditional" solenoid type injectors). You weren't too far off with piazzo :-)

Irish Steve

Is this a common rail system? If it is, and it's anything like the Bosch system used in some of the Renault, Nissan and Opel range, then this could be a lack of rail pressure when cranking, the injectors then don't fire and it won't start, despite having been running until literally a few seconds earlier.

To get some hints, if you can get access to an OBD reader, you need to use the live data option to check what the common rail pressure is when cranking, and then find out what pressure the injectors need to operate, and make sure that the cranking pressure is above the injector operate pressure. It should also tell you at the same time if it's correctly seeing the crank (or cam) sensor

I'm being driven demented by an Opel Vivaro that has this issue, there is a lack of fuel rail pressure when cranking, so it won't start. If we use Easy start on it, it starts,and keeps going, but that's not a lot of help, in that if it stalls, it won't restart again, and the only way to get easy start into it easily is to remove the air filter from the body, which is not instant.

bear1

Which would point to the fuel injection pump? Pray op it isn't that.
When it was suspected in my old 156 the mechanic quoted over 500e for a recon unit.

deandean

selous wrote: »

Glow plugs, fuel pipes,
It cost almost me E6k, (Subaru supplied the short motor and cylinder heads free)
According to them, the diesel had no lubricating properties, messed up the injectors, created a blockage in a lubrication chamber, which in turn the con rod broke.

Oh Gawwd. My sympathies OP you don't deserve this after buying a. new Subaru. I do hope you get sorted.

I had a diesel Outback (used) marked as my next car. I just couldn't buy one now having researched the engine problems.

I am back to looking at a 4wd version of a Mondeo / Volvo / Skoda etc.

bear1

deandean wrote: »

Oh Gawwd. My sympathies OP you don't deserve this after buying a. new Subaru. I do hope you get sorted.

I had a diesel Outback (used) marked as my next car. I just couldn't buy one now having researched the engine problems.

I am back to looking at a 4wd version of a Mondeo / Volvo / Skoda etc.

Funny that, I also was very very close to getting an 08 diesel legacy but 1) I couldn't find the spec I wanted and 2) I read about its horrendous injector issues.
Which are made worse due to the fact that they aren't located at the top of the engine.

selous

I got an email after I wrote a complaint to Subaru, they told me it was the diesel I was using here.....now if I was to forward said email to the company that I've being getting my diesel off for near 3 years now, wonder what they would say??

I looked on internet after my engine went too, did I get a shock, everywhere in the world, they're breaking, strangely they seem to be around the same mileage here and U.K that they're going at too, 150,000km/100,000miles, the crankshaft seems to be main thing, and with a full Subaru service history they are repairing them free in U.K, I seen people who have had the problem Thanking their garage and Subaru for the repairs, It was my injectors that went so (apparently) due to the fuel I used, so it wasn't a manufacturing fault.. said the email.

Lex Luthor

Just to add to this....

I ran a Legacy 2009 model diesel since 2009. I noticed this happening in the last few yrs. No problem in the morning, no problem after a short run. But if I drove for a while (like OP says 1hr or more) and stopped and tried to start up again within 5-10 min, it wouldn't start.

Used to drive me nuts...finally got a bit of a knack to getting it started again...but it used to be tricky at times

Never got to the bottom of it as I just traded it in recently when I seen all the posts about this engine failure....my sympathies go out to you..

They're a great car but these issues just soured my feeling towards them

selous

Good to know it isn't unique.....or is it?

I couldn't sell it private knowing it isn't right, because I wouldn't like it to happen to me, But this feels like the same thing, I paid for it to be fixed and it wasn't, now they cant because they don't know what is wrong, is this not where old school mechanics kick in, trial and error. I popped into a mechanic a friend recommended, he said the engine doesn't sound right at all, :eek:
Think I may have to go to a different garage, cause this isn't doing my sanity any good.

Colser

selous wrote: »

Good to know it isn't unique.....or is it?

I couldn't sell it private knowing it isn't right, because I wouldn't like it to happen to me, But this feels like the same thing, I paid for it to be fixed and it wasn't, now they cant because they don't know what is wrong, is this not where old school mechanics kick in, trial and error. I popped into a mechanic a friend recommended, he said the engine doesn't sound right at all, :eek:
Think I may have to go to a different garage, cause this isn't doing my sanity any good.

I wouldnt let anyone else near it at this stage selous ..I would definitely be going legal at this stage are they are totally messing you around again.

Email Subaru Ireland links to the stories in the UK and ask them to justify why it cost you to get the same problem repaired here. Its obviously a known fault and they should have covered your repairs imo.