2016 30Kw Journey

Fastpud

Just to give everyone an idea of range I thought I would share the first cross country trip in my 30kw Leaf. Did 554km today, Dublin to Galway and back.
Couple of base settings:
100KMH on motorway all the way (cruise Control)
Heating on all the time 22-24 degrees, heated seats and steering wheel also on.
Return in dark so lights on all the way
Average temp 0-1 degrees

1 Depart with 100% battery
2 To Athlone Topaz FC, 112 KMS, arrived with 16% battery (16-90% in 32mins)
3 Athlone to Galway 88KMS arrived with 31%
4 Lots of Local Driving
5 FC Galway Topaz 14%-91% (40mins approx)
6 Depart Galway with 87% battery
7 Galway to Athlone Topaz FC, 90KMS, arrived with 22% battery (22-77% in 27mins)
8 Athlone to AppleGreen M4 FC arrived 17%battery (17%-39% in 8 mins)
9 Home with 13% battery

Over all a big success, yes I stuck to 100KMS but that is what I normally drive as so no loss there. Given it was a cold day my guess there is quite a bit of extra range in there on warmer days.
For the journey the 4 FCs added less than 2 hours but saved about €80 in Petrol - in one day!
All FC were empty so no delays, but did see quite a few ICEd slow chargers in Galway though.
On the way back the non repaired TCU failed so need to get to the garage ASAP.

Rafal

Let me share my stats of today's return from Belfast to near Bray, about 220 km. Started about 3:10pm with 100% thanks to an on-street post while having lunch. Got a little lost which cost some time, maybe 10 mins. Drove 122-125 kph indicated (approx 115 real) most of the time, and occasionally 105 in three short zones north of the border and on M50 later on. Heating on at 19, with steering wheel and seats on, however using Eco mode and cruise control all the way. Arrived 100km later at Applegreen Castlebellingham with 25%. Charged to 60% in about 10-15 minutes. Continued 50km to Applegreen Lusk rather faster (128 indicated, so 120 real) with more serious accelerations and braking due to more stressy traffic, and arrived with 15%. Charged to 80% in about 25 minutes, and continued the final 70km to Bray using M50/M11 with more heating and without Eco mode. Arrived with 31% at 6:20pm.

In total, used 150% of usable capacity at this temperature (ca 25 kWh), 36 kWh in total, for about 220km in good conditions (no rain or standing water or heavy headwinds, but at 4C outside). Charged for 40 mins and drove for 2 hours 30 mins.

Overall, it could have been done with just one stop, but taking two stops made it more comfortable, increased reserves, shortened charging times, and reduced the impact of a potential risk of a broken charger or of a miscalculation.

Scottie99

Rafal wrote: »

Let me share my stats of today's return from Belfast to near Bray, about 220 km. Started about 3:10pm with 100% thanks to an on-street post while having lunch. Got a little lost which cost some time, maybe 10 mins. Drove 122-125 kph indicated (approx 115 real) most of the time, and occasionally 105 in three short zones north of the border and on M50 later on. Heating on at 19, with steering wheel and seats on, however using Eco mode and cruise control all the way. Arrived 100km later at Applegreen Castlebellingham with 25%. Charged to 60% in about 10-15 minutes. Continued 50km to Applegreen Lusk rather faster (128 indicated, so 120 real) with more serious accelerations and braking due to more stressy traffic, and arrived with 15%. Charged to 80% in about 25 minutes, and continued the final 70km to Bray using M50/M11 with more heating and without Eco mode. Arrived with 31% at 6:20pm.

In total, used 150% of usable capacity at this temperature (ca 25 kWh), 36 kWh in total, for about 220km in good conditions (no rain or standing water or heavy headwinds, but at 4C outside). Charged for 40 mins and drove for 2 hours 30 mins.

Overall, it could have been done with just one stop, but taking two stops made it more comfortable, increased reserves, shortened charging times, and reduced the impact of a potential risk of a broken charger or of a miscalculation.

Castlebellingham South - I reported that last Wednesday because the handle was broken( managed to get it working). Was it fixed?

Rafal

Scottie99 wrote: »

Castlebellingham South - I reported that last Wednesday because the handle was broken( managed to get it working). Was it fixed?

Assuming we are talking Chademo, which I used, it was definitely working, but it had a yellow sleeve, imprinted "Do not stretch the cable". Thanks for reporting it!

drdidlittle

How much do the recharge cost

Rafal

drdidlittle wrote: »

How much do the recharge cost

It is currently free, and has been this way since the early days. Charging money for recharging will be introduced at some point, most likely this year. ESB have already tried to introduce it, but their proposal was stopped by the Commission for Energy Regulation, mainly as a result of a backlash caused by what was thought to be an unfair system and one designed to circumvent the regulations prohibiting ESB from directly selling electricity to consumers.

When fees are introduced it is likely they will make at-home charging the staple approach even for those who currently prefer the free on-street electricity, assuming you can charge at home, or at work. This is because the current at-home rates work out at about 20-35% of the current cost of diesel for the same mileage, but this excludes all other cost savings (like low car taxes and cheap maintenance) and additional overheads (new EVs are more expensive to buy than ICE).

Have a good browse of this forum and on speakev.com if you are thinking of the economic reasons to own an EV.

Fastpud

Fastpud wrote: »

2 To Athlone Topaz FC, 112 KMS, arrived with 16% battery (16-90% in 32 mins

That's an impressive charge time. 16-90% in 32 mins the 24 Kwh would have taken probably 50 mins.

So that's a petty good difference, and you get more range !

Fastpud

Deleted User wrote: »

That's an impressive charge time. 16-90% in 32 mins the 24 Kwh would have taken probably 50 mins.

So that's a petty good difference, and you get more range !

Yea was very impressed, essentially Dublin - Galway with 32 minutes for a charge and arrived with 31% still available. Given that I would of stopped anyway with the kids for at least 30 minutes en-route, it was no slower.

554Kms in one day with little stress or hassle was better than I expected. I know that this could of been much worse if the chargers had been down, ( there is only a singe fast charger in Galway open on Sunday!) or in use but for the few times I would do this amount of KM in a single day I can live with that risk.

Really loved the car, very conferable and quiet . The Sat Nav is very responsive and the heated seats are such a luxury on a cold day

An 80% charge in the 30 Kw is a bit more than 100% charged in the 24 Kwh. Should be good for about 78-80 miles. OF course that's to empty and you'll usually be charging b twenty %.

ei9go

Fastpud wrote: »

For the journey the 4 FCs added less than 2 hours but saved about €80 in Petrol - in one day!
ASAP.

How does 554km cost 80 euro?

Fastpud

ei9go wrote: »

How does 554km cost 80 euro?

My old car was a gas guzzler that's what it cost me doing the same run - one of the reasons I wanted to change

peposhi

ei9go wrote: »

How does 554km cost 80 euro?

If your car does 11.5 litres per 100kms and the price for petrol was €1.25, as an example.

ei9go

peposhi wrote: »

If your car does 11.5 litres per 100kms and the price for petrol was €1.25, as an example.

Exactly my point, thanks for doing the maths.

Most normal 1.4 Petrol or smaller diesels would be between 5 and 6.5L per 100km.

serfboard

ei9go wrote: »

Exactly my point, thanks for doing the maths.

Most normal 1.4 Petrol or smaller diesels would be between 5 and 6.5L per 100km.

Yep, taking the price per litre of diesel to be 1.04 (as it is roughly now), @5.5l/100km the amount saved woud be closer to €30.

Still, though that's:

1. €30 extra in your pocket - not to be sneezed at (even if the cost of the Leaf does wipe some of that out).

2. Less money given to the Saudis - and who wouldn't want to celebrate that.

3. Journey done with No Emissions - nothing at all, and certainly not "40 times above what is allowed".

He didn't say a 5.5 L/100 km Diesel though, he said a Gas guzzling Petrol.

ei9go

I suppose you have to justify to yourself taking two hours longer to do a journey.

serfboard

Deleted User wrote: »

He didn't say a 5.5 L/100 km Diesel though, he said a Gas guzzling Petrol.

Ah yeah, fair point. The calculation I made is for most cars on the road, and indeed doesn't apply to the OP's gas guzzler.

ei9go wrote: »

I suppose you have to justify to yourself taking two hours longer to do a journey.

That's the great trade-off isn't it for EV owners? And one which a lot of them are prepared to make, but the rest of us aren't.

Although range is getting better all the time, for me the long-distance part of EVs has not been resolved satisfactorily yet.

For most normal driving though, involving shortish commutes and runabouts, followed by long stagnant periods in which the car could be charged, it's a no-brainer.

Rafal

More stats for those who are still interested in the real-world range of the 30 kWh Leaf. As of today, our barely week-old Leaf has done its first 1600 km, still superbly comfortable and a joy to drive. Today I have seen both the worst and the best performance so far, in good conditions (no rain or headwind, but a bit cold at 4C), with heating on at 19C, seat and steering wheel on.

• Used 16% over 27km from Ferbane-Kilbeggan, average speed of 54kph, making it 1.7 km/1% of battery capacity. This would mean a range of 170 km for such local, city, or nearby village driving mix.
• 45% over 46km, Kilbeggan-Applegreen Enfield, average speed of 120kph, making 1.0 km/1%, or range of just 100 km at max motorway speed between two motorway service stations, and including a total climb of about 90m of elevation difference, at speed. This is as bad a result as driving in rain/standing water at lower speeds that I encountered on day 1 of Leaf ownership last week.
• 42% over 69km, Enfield-Dublin-Bray, mixing motorway with city some slow city traffic, average 46kph, 1.6 km/1%, making it a 160 km range car.

For reference, charging from 7kW posts is really fast—glad I have the 6.6 kW on-board charger and 32A at home! We used it twice today, once while having lunch home (after the journey from Offaly) and then again while visiting a shop and having dinner in town. 10-70% takes 1 hour 40 minutes, enabling us to make long journeys without having to worry about charging too much. The 3kW charger would have meant waiting 3.5 hours for this charge, no way I could incorporate that twice into a busy day without having to detour to a rapid. Amazingly, the last 2% (98-100) can take 45 minutes, so really not worth it.

I don't know how others like to think, but for me having those ratios (multipliers) of 1-1.1 for "very fast", 1.3 for "typical motorway" and 1.6 for "city" in my head makes it very easy to figure out what is my real range: I just multiply the percentage left (%SOC) by this figure and voilá the real range, taking into account how I plan to drive. I wish the guessometer could show such 3 estimates, or even better, that it took into account the journey just planned in the sat nav.

**For your convenience, I reposted this from my SpeakEV thread: https://speakev.com/threads/real-world-30-kwh-leaf-range-statistics.14901/

thierry14

112km and only 16% battery left

That's awful

That's less than 135km for a 100% charge

That can't be right?

ted1

As some one who has been giving serious thought to getting an leaf this numbers and charge time really don't appeal to me. I think a PHEV makes way more sense.,

2 hours extra in to a 500km journey providing the charging point is free. As for the 89 euro saving I imagine that you spent money while passing time during the charge. And you must have a really bad. MOG in the old car if it uses 12 l/100km on a motorway

thierry14

ted1 wrote: »

As some one who has been giving serious thought to getting an leaf this numbers and charge time really don't appeal to me. I think a PHEV makes way more sense.,

I am of the same opinion.

I cant understand how VW and other car giants can't build a hybrid diesel that will do 60-80km on electric power and then a small 1.2 tdi that does 3.5/100km kicks in.

That's what people want imo

nokia69

thierry14 wrote: »

I am of the same opinion.

I cant understand how VW and other car giants can't build a hybrid diesel that will do 60-80km on electric power and then a small 1.2 tdi that does 3.5/100km kicks in.

That's what people want imo

That car is on the way, in a few years most BMWs will be plug in hybrid and since the Diesel scandal VW will have to do the same

thierry14

thierry14 wrote: »

I am of the same opinion.

I cant understand how VW and other car giants can't build a hybrid diesel that will do 60-80km on electric power and then a small 1.2 tdi that does 3.5/100km kicks in.

That's what people want imo

Believe me, once the EVs get upto 300k mark per charge and you have driven one for a while the last thing you'd want is a 1.2 TDI in your car to add noise weight and complexity.

Rafal

thierry14 wrote: »

I am of the same opinion.

I cant understand how VW and other car giants can't build a hybrid diesel that will do 60-80km on electric power and then a small 1.2 tdi that does 3.5/100km kicks in.

That's what people want imo

I do not know what your "people" want, but I know that I do not want that. I want kids and their kids to live in cities without unhealthy diesel pollution, causing lung diseases and cancer. So anything to get rid of diesel, and petrol in the mid-term, is what my "people" want.

In the meantime, my Leaf is by far the most comfortable and enjoyable car I have ever had. If it gets better with range increase on the 2-year horizon, it will appeal to more buyers.

Rafal

ted1 wrote: »

As some one who has been giving serious thought to getting an leaf this numbers and charge time really don't appeal to me. I think a PHEV makes way more sense.,

2 hours extra in to a 500km journey providing the charging point is free. As for the 89 euro saving I imagine that you spent money while passing time during the charge. And you must have a really bad. MOG in the old car if it uses 12 l/100km on a motorway

Ted1, it sounds like you have been doing the right thinking. If 500km journey is what you do regularly, then today's BEVs are not for you. Maybe even those coming in the next 1-2 years, when the range and charging times double.

For me, the 500 km weekend journey to and from Belfast, or the 400 km to Offaly over the last two days, these are exceptions. Most of my trips are 20-30km returns in a day, perhaps once a week an 80-120km. I can do all of those without the need to recharge en-route.

While I find it nice that while I am having a dinner in town my car can recharge for free, this is not the reason for buying a BEV. Economy is not on BEV side because they are still much too expensive to buy.

You buy one because it is a better, nicer car.

It is ready and fuelled in the morning, without visiting those awful pumps. It is warm and dry and supremely comfortable. It is quiet. It is smooth like Kerrygold, without angry vibrations, yet able to overtake almost anyone from a full stop, because of its pretty awesome torque and power, without even as much as a judder. It smells good and it is clean, no oils or spark plugs or other gunk to replace, either. It looks and feels futuristic, and it is well equipped with gadgets that appeal to me.

I cherish planning my longer journeys with 20-30 min stops for a cake or coffee while it recharges, because it makes my trip feel more special, and I enjoy this special time with my husband and friends. I am free from smelly petrol or dirty diesel, and that feels soooo good, especially knowing that in some small way I am helping Irish kids stay healthier.

But I am sad that it is not yet ready for all of us. Maybe it will be good for you, Ted, one day, too, but please don't make yourself buy one just yet. You need to be ready for it only when it is ready for you.

thierry14

thierry14 wrote: »

I am of the same opinion.

I cant understand how VW and other car giants can't build a hybrid diesel that will do 60-80km on electric power and then a small 1.2 tdi that does 3.5/100km kicks in.

That's what people want imo

Hybrid diesels don't work good, they run too cold a lot of the time needing to run the engine far more along with electric auxiliary heating. A prius is vastly more efficient.

You don't need a high polluting diesel with in a hybrid set up, defeats the purpose.

I could do 110-115Kms in the 24 Kwh leaf at 105 Kph with a bit to spare but you'd need to be close to a charge point, no reason the 30 Kwh can't do 140kms under the same conditions to 160-170 Kms in Summer.

Driving 105 Kph V 120 doesn't make a whole lot of difference and if very long trips are a regular occurrence then the Gen II Electrics are really only 1 year 11 months away.

300 Km range.

BoatMad

Having had a 30 kw for a few days , my observations are

There is no doubt that motorways and speed kill the range , its a square law after all. ( speed/energy)

in response to some, there will never be a 1.2tdi, not if it has to propel a car, with increasing emissions control , diesels are actually increasing in size ( you'll see a lot of 1.4 tdi are now 1.6 in 2016 )

The major issue, is that right now people are prepared to trade time charging because its free. if we get charges rates anywhere near the previous proposals, now, you'll be waiting ages AND paying as much as that efficient ICE, thats refuels in minutes.

Thats going to kill EVs , dead as a dodo.

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

if we get charges rates anywhere near the previous proposals, now, you'll be waiting ages AND paying as much as that efficient ICE, thats refuels in minutes.

Thats going to kill EVs , dead as a dodo.

How do you figure that, if most charging is done at home ?

You're still thinking everyone wants to drive 300-340 kms daily and that that kind of charging can't be done at home where in fact at 60 kwh can be charged over about 10 hrs at 6.6 Kw. easily enough.

Most people don't drive this distance per day, how do you think 90 Kwh Model S owners survive ? they charge over several days and the car is ready for that 450 km trip and use the super charger for the rest.

peposhi

BoatMad wrote: »

Having had a 30 kw for a few days , my observations are

There is no doubt that motorways and speed kill the range , its a square law after all. ( speed/energy)

in response to some, there will never be a 1.2tdi, not if it has to propel a car, with increasing emissions control , diesels are actually increasing in size ( you'll see a lot of 1.4 tdi are now 1.6 in 2016 )

The major issue, is that right now people are prepared to trade time charging because its free. if we get charges rates anywhere near the previous proposals, now, you'll be waiting ages AND paying as much as that efficient ICE, thats refuels in minutes.

Thats going to kill EVs , dead as a dodo.

BoatMad, are you still going for an EV or the test drive changed your mind?

ted1

Rafal wrote: »

Ted1, it sounds like you have been doing the right thinking. If 500km journey is what you do regularly, then today's BEVs are not for you. Maybe even those coming in the next 1-2 years, when the range and charging times double.

For me, the 500 km weekend journey to and from Belfast, or the 400 km to Offaly over the last two days, these are exceptions. Most of my trips are 20-30km returns in a day, perhaps once a week an 80-120km. I can do all of those without the need to recharge en-route.

While I find it nice that while I am having a dinner in town my car can recharge for free, this is not the reason for buying a BEV. Economy is not on BEV side because they are still much too expensive to buy.

You buy one because it is a better, nicer car.

It is ready and fuelled in the morning, without visiting those awful pumps. It is warm and dry and supremely comfortable. It is quiet. It is smooth like Kerrygold, without angry vibrations, yet able to overtake almost anyone from a full stop, because of its pretty awesome torque and power, without even as much as a judder. It smells good and it is clean, no oils or spark plugs or other gunk to replace, either. It looks and feels futuristic, and it is well equipped with gadgets that appeal to me.

I cherish planning my longer journeys with 20-30 min stops for a cake or coffee while it recharges, because it makes my trip feel more special, and I enjoy this special time with my husband and friends. I am free from smelly petrol or dirty diesel, and that feels soooo good, especially knowing that in some small way I am helping Irish kids stay healthier.

But I am sad that it is not yet ready for all of us. Maybe it will be good for you, Ted, one day, too, but please don't make yourself buy one just yet. You need to be ready for it only when it is ready for you.

A 30kw charge with a range of 150km means you get 5km per kW. Which say 100km= 20kwh elec=8.8kg of C02

The equivalent of an a2 car is 100g per km = 10kg of C02.

So really the saving is only 1.2kg of CO2 per 100km.


So the emissions aren't to much different , so the big scary pumps aren't to bad.

cros13

ted1 wrote: »

A 30kw charge with a range of 150km means you get 5km per kW. Which say 100km= 20kwh elec=8.8kg of C02

The equivalent of an a2 car is 100g per km = 10kg of C02.

So really the saving is only 1.2kg of CO2 per 100km.


So the emissions aren't to much different , so the big scary pumps aren't to bad.

Your calculations are nonsense. You've made the common error of doing pump to wheel for the ICE and well to wheel for the EV.

Your 100g/km is a measurement of tailpipe emissions only and does not account for refining and transport emissions which turn that 100g per km (which is also bollocks because you are comparing NEDC lab numbers for the ICE with real world EV consumption) into something approaching 350g/km at a minimum. The electricity use at the refining step alone is more than the EV consumes.

The average EV is three to five times more efficient than an ICE. If you took the same fuel you put into an ICE, burned it at a combined cycle power station, transmitted it through the grid, charged your EV you would immediately at least double your mileage.

co2 production is directly proportional to the amount of fuel used.

Scottie99

ted1 wrote: »

A 30kw charge with a range of 150km means you get 5km per kW. Which say 100km= 20kwh elec=8.8kg of C02

The equivalent of an a2 car is 100g per km = 10kg of C02.

So really the saving is only 1.2kg of CO2 per 100km.


So the emissions aren't to much different , so the big scary pumps aren't to bad.

http://youtu.be/BQpX-9OyEr4

ted1

I didn't use well to wheel for the EV I used the all island energy mix figure of 440g of CO2 for the average kWh generated in Ireland.

That just uses figure from generation

ted1

Scottie99 wrote: »

http://youtu.be/BQpX-9OyEr4

That video is full of errors so I turned it off before the end. The three closest refineries may be coal but they are not an a dedicated circuit so they don't just supply the refinery, clean nuclear power, hydro , wind etc all tie in and feed the grid too, which I turn feeds the plant , that is why I used the average figure. Also I'm pretty sure that energy is also used to mine and refine lithium for batteries .

Also refineries are about 86% efficient so the figures don't change too much https://greet.es.anl.gov/files/petroleum

Rafal

ted1 wrote: »

A 30kw charge with a range of 150km means you get 5km per kW. Which say 100km= 20kwh elec=8.8kg of C02

The equivalent of an a2 car is 100g per km = 10kg of C02.

So really the saving is only 1.2kg of CO2 per 100km.


So the emissions aren't to much different , so the big scary pumps aren't to bad.

Ted, as you correctly pointed out, EVs save a considerable amount of CO2 compared to diesel/petrol—although, many would believe the savings to be greater than you have outlined, especially if you include the cost of producing and transporting diesel/petrol. Also, many organisations, including Environmental Protection Agency in US, and Which in UK, have started questioning the lab-tested CO2 figures for diesel/petrol recently, claiming the real-world emissions of almost all ICE cars to be about 5 times greater than reported by manufacturers. Perhaps you have heard of the Volkswagen emission figure cheating scandal, too.

A good, yet still safely conservative, which you may like, comparison of BEVs vs PHEVs and petrol and diesel is offered by the Sustainable Energy Association of Ireland, see this article and the many others linked on the left of that page:

http://www.seai.ie/Grants/Electric_Vehicle_Grant_Scheme/I_am_a_consumer/EV_Annual_Fuel_Cost_and_CO2_Savings/

and a calculator showing the savings in terms of CO2 and cash:

http://www.seai.ie/Grants/Electric_Vehicle_Grant_Scheme/EV_calculator/

However, even if we allowed for the smaller, but still very considerable, CO2 savings on which you have focused, which may also assume that the much greater CO2 savings don't affect you because they happen in some far-away countries, that would miss my original point of looking after the health of the "Irish kids".

CO2 does not cause cancer, even if it contributes to global warming and CO (not CO2) is somewhat poisonous. However, the acrid mix of tailpipe emissions of soot, tar, multiple types of microscopic particles smaller than 2.5microns, and NOx has terrible, well-documented and measured effects on lungs and human health. Ireland is lucky to have some of the best air quality in Europe—compare to the ICE-caused smog in London or Milan!—but anyone living near a busy street in Dublin is affected.

Even if you didn't care for that, and you are perhaps still an avowed supporter of diesel, I urge you to continue to carefully consider the pros and cons of owning a BEV. As I stated in my original reply to you, I do not believe a BEV would be appropriate for you, Ted, right now, but I hope that a day would come when one would be ready for you. In the meantime, it would put a smile on my face if you appreciated that many of us who drive BEVs do it for very many other reasons—see my original reply to you—some more straightforward, like comfort, and some perhaps more idealistic than cash savings alone.

cros13

ted1 wrote: »

I didn't use well to wheel for the EV I used the all island energy mix figure of 440g of CO2 for the average kWh generated in Ireland.

That just uses figure from generation

The correct number per kWh is the 9 hour night average of 380g/kWh which applies when most EVs are charging... although even that it deceptive because in most cases we are using idle base load... i.e. power that was going to be generated and emissions that were going to be released regardless of whether we charged the car or not...

For an independent comparison check the methodology UCS used here: http://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/electric-vehicles/ev-emissions-tool#z/20171/2015/BMW/i3

The zip code I entered for the comparison (20171) uses more than double the coal and 20% less carbon free electricity generation than the Irish grid average 24 hour fuel mix (Sources: EPA OAS/SERC Virginia Carolina | Eirgrid SmartDashboard rolling average). The numbers for charging at night are far better in Ireland... in December over 83% of electricity my i3 consumed was from renewable (Eirgrid SmartDashboard rolling average | Airtricity reported fuel mix | time of use logging from the meter attached to my chargepoint). Note that the GREET model used by UCS includes indirect emissions unfavorable to the EV (vs probable Irish figures) for things like mining and transport of fuel to power plants.

In fact EVs are so efficient that when I ran the numbers for a RAV4 EV charging on 100% coal derived electricity at peak times, and then compared it to the petrol RAV4, giving every assumption to the petrol car the EV still beat it on co2 emissions by 5-10%.

The reason it's 10-12 times cheaper for me to run my EV 100km is not just taxation, there is an inherent three to five times advantage to the EV in energy consumption. And every liter of fuel, cubic meter of gas and ton of coal has a defined quantity of carbon in it that's released when burned. We pay less because we use less, end of story.

ted1

Rafal wrote: »

Ted, as you correctly pointed out, EVs save a considerable amount of CO2 compared to Diesel/Petrol—although, many would believe the savings to be greater than you outlined, especially if you include the cost of producing and transporting diesel/petrol. Also, many organisations, including Which in UK, have started questioning the lab-tested CO2 figures for diesel/petrol recently, claiming the real-world emissions of almost all ICE cars to be about 5 times greater than reported by manufacturers. Perhaps you have heard of the Volkswagen emission figure cheating scandal, too.

A good, yet still safely conservative, which you may like, comparison of BEVs vs PHEVs and petrol and diesel is offered by the Sustainable Energy Association of Ireland, see this article and the many others linked on the left of that page:

http://www.seai.ie/Grants/Electric_Vehicle_Grant_Scheme/I_am_a_consumer/EV_Annual_Fuel_Cost_and_CO2_Savings/

and a calculator showing the savings in terms of CO2 and cash:

http://www.seai.ie/Grants/Electric_Vehicle_Grant_Scheme/EV_calculator/

However, even if we allowed for the smaller, but still very considerable, CO2 savings on which you have focused, which may also assume that the much greater CO2 savings don't affect you because they happen in some far-away countries, that would miss my original point of looking after the health of the "Irish kids".

CO2 does not cause cancer, even if it contributes to global warming, but the acrid mix of tailpipe emissions of soot, tar, multiple types of microscopic particles smaller than 2.5microns, and NOx has terrible, well-documented and measured effects on lungs and human health. Ireland is lucky to have some of the best air quality in Europe—compare to the ICE-caused smog in London or Milan!—but anyone living near a busy street in Dublin is affected.

Even if you didn't care for that, and you are perhaps still an avowed supporter of diesel, I urge you to continue to carefully consider the pros and cons of owning a BEV. As I stated in my original reply to you, I do not believe a BEV would be appropriate for you, Ted, right now, but I hope that a day would come when one would be ready for you. In the meantime, it would put a smile on my face if you appreciated that many of us who drive BEVs do it for very many other reasons—see my original reply to you—some more straightforward, like comfort, and some perhaps more idealistic than cash savings alone.

Bear in mind I'm a energy manager and save companies millions a year while reducing output, I also have a MSc in energy management so I do care about emissions. But the link you posted saves there's a 27% difference in CO2 between EV and Diesel. NOX and SOX are probably outputs are probably linear ( I'll have to look that up)

As for comfort that's open to interpretation ICE card can be quiet too. The main point really is range anxiety. And what value you put on your time. Stopping off for a half hour charge on the way home ( providing no one else is using the charger) is half an hour less I get to spend with the kids before bed time. On a two way trip that hour will cost €150 in billable hours.

ted1

Cros13. That site doesn't strike me as being independent. Where did you get the 9 hour figure from, our emissions are actually worse at night time because we are using our base loads plant like moneypoint, during the day we ramp up our CCGT plants which are much cleaner and reduce the overall output. When the load drops below 2GW We are at our worse with regards CO2/kWh

with regards your comment about using energy that was going to go to waste that is just nonsense.

You can see the Daily CO2 output here :http://smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com/#all/co2

Notice how it's lower during the day

Rafal

ted1 wrote: »

Bear in mind I'm a energy manager and save companies millions a year while reducing output, I also have a MSc in energy management so I do care about emissions. But the link you posted saves there's a 27% difference in CO2 between EV and Diesel. NOX and SOX are probably outputs are probably linear ( I'll have to look that up)

As for comfort that's open to interpretation ICE card can be quiet too. The main point really is range anxiety. And what value you put on your time. Stopping off for a half hour charge on the way home ( providing no one else is using the charger) is half an hour less I get to spend with the kids before bed time. On a two way trip that hour will cost €150 in billable hours.

No, Ted, NOx emissions are not "linear". Government agencies call BEVs "zero emission" vehicles because these cars produce no health damaging emissions where they drive: on the street where your kids live. Diesel/petrol cars, on the other hand, pollute precisely where our homes are and where your kids grow up. Even in countries more polluted than Ireland, smog is not a problem where well-run electricity plants are located, but precisely away from them: in the cities where you, I, and your kids want to enjoy life.

While you cherish that wonderful half an hour more with your kids, I will help your children avoid awful lung diseases, perhaps even cancer. I hope you can appreciate that one day.

ted1

Rafal wrote: »

No, Ted, NOx emissions are not "linear". Government agencies call BEVs "zero emission" vehicles because these cars produce no health damaging emissions where they drive: on the street where your kids live. Diesel/petrol cars, on the other hand, pollute precisely where our homes are and where your kids grow up. Even in countries more polluted than Ireland, smog is not a problem where well-run electricity plants are located, but precisely away from them: in the cities where you, I, and your kids want to enjoy life.

You can't write off the NOX. And SOX from power plants used to generate electricity for EV.
In Dublin you have Dublin Bay power , polbeg and North wall power plant all located within the Irish town area and beside sports pictures,
You have Huntstown beside the houses in Finglas etc

Soon enough Dublin Waste 2 Energy will also be up and running pumping emissions into the city

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

I didn't use well to wheel for the EV I used the all island energy mix figure of 440g of CO2 for the average kWh generated in Ireland.

That just uses figure from generation

You're classing Co2 as a pollutant ? Co2 isn't a pollutant and should be the least of your worries.

U.S emissions are far more strict than that in the E.U. Which is why VW and others had to cheat the emissions tests , particularly for California.

U.S regulations care about the actual pollution from Cars far more than that in the E.U and our emissions regulations are so poor compared to the U.S because of years of E.U Car makers dictating to legislators the standards for testing and the emissions regulations themselves , change to real life test is seemingly on the way for real life testing for 2017 ?

From Wiki,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards

"An independent study in 2014 used portable emission measurement systems to measure NOx emissions during real world driving from fifteen Euro 6 compliant diesel passenger cars. The results showed that NOx emissions were on average as much as 7 times higher than the Euro 6 limit. However, some of the vehicles did show reduced emissions, suggesting that real world NOx emission control is possible.[26]

In 2015, the Volkswagen common-rail TDI diesel engine emissions controversy involved revelations that Volkswagen AG had deliberately falsified emission reports by programming engine management unit firmware to detect test conditions, and change emissions controls when under test. The cars thus passed the test, but in real world conditions, emitted up to 40 times more NOx emissions than allowed by law.[27] An independent report in September 2015 warned that this extended to "every major car manufacturer",[28] with BMW, and Opel named alongside Volkswagen and its sister company Audi as "the worst culprits",[28] and that approximately 90% of diesel cars "breach emissions regulations".[28] Overlooking the direct responsibility of the companies involved, the authors blamed the violations on a number of factors, including "unrealistic test conditions, a lack of transparency and a number of loopholes in testing protocols"

thierry14

ted1 wrote: »

A 30kw charge with a range of 150km means you get 5km per kW. Which say 100km= 20kwh elec=8.8kg of C02

The equivalent of an a2 car is 100g per km = 10kg of C02.

So really the saving is only 1.2kg of CO2 per 100km.


So the emissions aren't to much different , so the big scary pumps aren't to bad.

Interesting

So much for EV being way cheaper to run too!

What's the price per kW now 18cent or something?

18x20kw

3.60 euro to do 100km

Most modern diesel can do 100km using 5 litres or less, diesel @ 1.00 euro a litre like now

5.00 euro to do 100km

If like some posters said BMW, VW are going to be releasing Hybrid diesels capable of running 60km on electric and a 1.6 tdi using 4l/100km to kick in after

It will work out just as cheap to run as a Leaf

EV's are still way too inefficient, never mind the range yet

They should be using 10kw to do 100km @ 120kmh at minimum imo

Are they working on this?

What do Teslas use kW/100km?

The same 20kw/100km?

All I hear about is range increase

Electric prices per kW are not cheap in Ireland

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

You can't write off the NOX. And SOX from power plants used to generate electricity for EV.
In Dublin you have Dublin Bay power , polbeg and North wall power plant all located within the Irish town area and beside sports pictures,
You have Huntstown beside the houses in Finglas etc

Soon enough Dublin Waste 2 Energy will also be up and running pumping emissions into the city

Our grid is getting cleaner and yesterday and today for instance 50+ % of our total electricity is coming from wind.

People seem to forget the emissions in getting oil out of the ground, first the oil has to be discovered, drilled, transported to the refinery, refined using huge amounts of electricity then transported to petrol stations and burned in cars at about 20-30% efficiency. So the real life emissions of petrol and diesel cars is vastly higher and also as Cros said, the NEDC test is a joke. And designed to suit the car manufacturers.

At least what we generate from renewables is clean after the initial installation.

There has been many times the past year that up to 50% of my driving has been done on wind power.

I just wish they included solar PV in the mix.

ted1

thierry14 wrote: »

Interesting

So much for EV being way cheaper to run too!

What's the price per kW now 18cent or something?

18x20kw

3.60 euro to do 100km

Most modern diesel can do 100km using 5 litres or less, diesel @ 1.00 euro a litre like now

5.00 euro to do 100km

If like some posters said BMW, VW are going to be releasing Hybrid diesels capable of running 60km on electric and a 1.6 tdi using 4l/100km to kick in after

It will work out just as cheap to run as a Leaf

EV's are still way too inefficient, never mind the range yet

They should be using 10kw to do 100km @ 120kmh at minimum imo

Are they working on this?

What do Teslas use kW/100km?

The same 20kw/100km?

All I hear about is range increase

Electric prices per kW are not cheap in Ireland

I'm not sure they can get that figure down , bottom line is to move x amount of weight on a road with y friction and z wind resistance will require Q amount of power.

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

Notice how it's lower during the day

That's probably more to do with usually the wind is at it's strongest during the day. Notice I said usually.

peposhi

peposhi wrote: »

BoatMad, are you still going for an EV or the test drive changed your mind?

He bought one. And I told him not to be moaning about range that he's here long enough to know what to expect.

IF you have to slow down to 100 Kph from 120 I don't see a huge deal.

The difference isn't major. So what if it takes 10 mins longer ?

An ICE under the same 120 Kph speed and wind, wet roads, cold probably wouldn't drive more than 10 kms with the same amount of energy.

ted1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That's probably more to do with usually the wind is at it's strongest during the day. Notice I said usually.

No it's the gas fired CCGT plants being more efficient than the cheaper coal plants.
In an ideal world ( forgetting about RES) our base load would come from gas as opposed to coal , but coal is far to cheap.

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

No it's the gas fired CCGT plants being more efficient than the cheaper coal plants.
In an ideal world ( forgetting about RES) our base load would come from gas as opposed to coal , but coal is far to cheap.

Gas has come down in price a lot , it just hasn't been passed on to the consumer.

As always the regulator ensures the companies are looked after and not the consumer.

KCross

ted1 wrote: »

Cros13. That site doesn't strike me as being independent. Where did you get the 9 hour figure from, our emissions are actually worse at night time because we are using our base loads plant like moneypoint, during the day we ramp up our CCGT plants which are much cleaner and reduce the overall output. When the load drops below 2GW We are at our worse with regards CO2/kWh

with regards your comment about using energy that was going to go to waste that is just nonsense.

You can see the Daily CO2 output here :http://smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com/#all/co2

Notice how it's lower during the day

I think the figures being used are a bit of a smoke screen (Pun intended!) to support ICE.

How the energy is generated and what the CO2/kWh figure is for Ireland is not something car users have direct control over. Thats driven by government policy and private interests. As long as its not worse than ICE surely thats the important thing?

You can also decrease those figures for yourself by picking renewable energy providers rather than using the average for the country.

Your figures show that EV is better than ICE and the ICE figures are, by most commentators, considered under estimated so EV is much better than your figures suggest.

Unless you believe the ICE figures you put forward and dont think it costs anything to refine and deliver the petrol/diesel?



I think we need to think long term. ICE wont dramatically improve its CO2 footprint. EV's should only get better. If we change how our electricity is generated it will make it even more attractive. I'd rather be dependent on electricity than petrol/diesel and get the incremental benefits as we wind down our coal/peat plants and switch to renewable/gas.

There are all the other discussions around range anxiety, charge times etc that you mention which will be addressed when the longer range versions become available at an affordable price point. I would agree that sitting at a charger is a waste of your life. I plan to keep my rapid charging to exceptional cases only. 99% of your charging should be at night while you sleep.

If todays EV's cant give you the range you need (as opposed to what your ICE gives you) its just too early for you to adopt but I think you need to move away from Irelands current CO2/kWh figures to justify staying on ICE.

Again and again, only mentioned is Co2 ! I blame the media for this brainwashing !

Co2 isn't a pollutant !