Dublin Bus wont be accepting Luas Tickets during Strike

The Caveman

Just thought I would mention this for those that thought it would be accepted, as some times it is, but not tomorrow/Friday

as per front page on Dublin Bus website.

thomasj

Hardly surprising.

They're two separate companies and unless NTA would be willing to compensate Dublin bus, it's not within Dublin bus financial interests to allow luas tickets.

That should maybe a question for NTA, but im guessing they'll put that ball in the luas operators (transdev) court.

The Caveman

usually when the Luas breaks down, they will accept it, I used my Luas ticket on Monday morning on Dublin Bus.

I sent an email to Luas, to get a refund for 2 days, as i have a monthly Luas ticket.

LXFlyer

The Caveman wrote: »

usually when the Luas breaks down, they will accept it, I used my Luas ticket on Monday morning on Dublin Bus.

I sent an email to Luas, to get a refund for 2 days, as i have a monthly Luas ticket.

There is a difference between a service breakdown and the service being suspended due to a strike.

There is no agreement for cross-operator ticket acceptance in the event of a strike.

schemingbohemia

Any claims for refunds should be sent to SIPTU

The Caveman

Called LUAS

they will issue refunds for all weekly.monthly.yearly ticket holders, starting on Monday. by calling them

what is what they told me over the phone today.

MrMorooka

A question that has been confusing me. Transdev is a private company right? So it is aiming to make a profit? But they claim that they "€700,000 last year and was predicting further losses for 2016." so they can't talk about pay. But if they are losing money and it only seems to be getting worse, why the hell are they operating Luas? Why did they take on the contract if there's no profit in it? Did they **** up?

end of the road

MrMorooka wrote: »

A question that has been confusing me. Transdev is a private company right? So it is aiming to make a profit? But they claim that they "€700,000 last year and was predicting further losses for 2016." so they can't talk about pay. But if they are losing money and it only seems to be getting worse, why the hell are they operating Luas? Why did they take on the contract if there's no profit in it? Did they **** up?

a very good question MrMorooka. transdave is indeed a private company. from what i understand, the losses are in general and not from luas. i should imagine they took on luas before they suffered any losses. hopefully more info on your questions will come into the public domain soon.

dublinbusdude

Dublin Bus routes that will swamped are:

Green Line: 7, 11, 14, 44, 46a & 145

Red Line: 13, 27, 56a, 65/b, 68, 69, 77a, 90, 145 & 151

Cross both Lines: 18 (Green Line at Raneagh & Red Line at Kylemore) & 75 (Green Line at Dundrum & Red Line at Tallaght)

LXFlyer

dublinbusdude wrote: »

Dublin Bus routes that will swamped are:

Green Line: 7, 11, 14, 44, 46a & 145

Red Line: 13, 27, 56a, 65/b, 68, 69, 77a, 90, 145 & 151

Cross both Lines: 18 (Green Line at Raneagh & Red Line at Kylemore) & 75 (Green Line at Dundrum & Red Line at Tallaght)

I think you forgot the 47, 61, 114, 116 and 118 with respect to the Green Line.

You also left out the 40, 122, 123 with respect to the Red Line, and any of the 25, 25a, 25b, 26, 66, 66a, 66b, 67 and 79/a from Heuston inwards.

tabbey

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Any claims for refunds should be sent to SIPTU

Better still, the bearded one.

Unions are no different from any other businesses, they depend on pay claims from time to time, to justify their existence, maintain membership, and thus revenue.
Without mamber subscriptions, there would be no money to pay official's salaries.

Tram drivers should realise they are only being used as pawns.

Victor

end of the road wrote: »

transdave is indeed a private company. from what i understand, the losses are in general and not from luas.

AFAIK, Luas is Transdev's only operation in Ireland.

All other Veolia operations in Ireland stayed with Veolia.

MrMorooka

Victor wrote: »

AFAIK, Luas is Transdev's only operation in Ireland.

Can you explain why Transdev is in a contract that is losing them large amounts of money?

LXFlyer

MrMorooka wrote: »

Can you explain why Transdev is in a contract that is losing them large amounts of money?

You would have to see what their financial statements look like (in detail) to understand that.

cdebru

Accounts can be made to say pretty much whatever they want them to say, for example back in 2013 DB was at deaths door, opened their books to independent assessment and confirmed DB was banjaxed, yet lo and behold 6 months later when DB released their accounts for 2013 they actually made a modest profit, 1.5 million as far as I remember, and it wasn't cost cutting that made this miraculous turn around, because the cost cutting deal was only implemented in late November 2013.

So any claims based on accounts should be treated with caution.

cdebru

Accounts can be made to say pretty much whatever they want them to say, for example back in 2013 DB was at deaths door, opened their books to independent assessment and confirmed DB was banjaxed, yet lo and behold 6 months later when DB released their accounts for 2013 they actually made a modest profit, 1.5 million as far as I remember, and it wasn't cost cutting that made this miraculous turn around, because the cost cutting deal was only implemented in late November 2013.

So any claims based on accounts should be treated with caution.

LXFlyer

cdebru wrote: »

Accounts can be made to say pretty much whatever they want them to say, for example back in 2013 DB was at deaths door, opened their books to independent assessment and confirmed DB was banjaxed, yet lo and behold 6 months later when DB released their accounts for 2013 they actually made a modest profit, 1.5 million as far as I remember, and it wasn't cost cutting that made this miraculous turn around, because the cost cutting deal was only implemented in late November 2013.

So any claims based on accounts should be treated with caution.

With respect - look at the current DB balance sheet. It's still an unholy mess with massive accumulated losses. A P & L account is only for one year - the Balance Sheet is key to assessing the company's overall financial health.

And if you are suggesting that professional qualified accountants (of which I am one) are prepared to put their necks on the line by producing false and misleading accounts then I think you may need to retract that suggestion.

I find that very insulting to my profession.

You are effectively calling us liars.

Unless you look at the individual cost elements you cannot make sweeping statements like you have just done.

LXFlyer

cdebru wrote: »

Accounts can be made to say pretty much whatever they want them to say, for example back in 2013 DB was at deaths door, opened their books to independent assessment and confirmed DB was banjaxed, yet lo and behold 6 months later when DB released their accounts for 2013 they actually made a modest profit, 1.5 million as far as I remember, and it wasn't cost cutting that made this miraculous turn around, because the cost cutting deal was only implemented in late November 2013.

So any claims based on accounts should be treated with caution.

Just to revert to this - the real problem that DB and the other CIE companies faced was that the losses had already been accumulated in the previous years - the cuts in payroll were to try and recover some of those losses.


You cannot simply look at one year in isolation - you have to look at the series of accounts. In the case of Dublin Bus, it made losses of €15m in 2008, €14m in 2009, €22m in 2010, €18m in 2011 and €4m in 2012.


Those losses don't just get swept away and forgotten about - the world doesn't work like that. They have to be recovered - the payroll cuts should have happened back in 2009 to match the drop in revenues, but they didn't - they took place much later and as a result the company was playing catch up in terms of trying to recover the losses it had suffered.


While the company made a profit in 2013, at the end of that year, the company had €51m of accumulated losses (having made a profit of €481k and having net current liabilities (current assets less current liabilities) of €47m and got a qualified audit opinion.


It made a profit of €11m in 2014, but that still leaves a shortfall of €40m to be made up. It still had net current liabilities of €43m and a qualified audit report.

Dub13

The Caveman wrote: »

usually when the Luas breaks down, they will accept it, I used my Luas ticket on Monday morning on Dublin Bus.

Its my understanding that LUAS pay DB an hourly rate when they have a breakdown.

Stephen15

Well when DB went on strike the luas didn't accept bus tickets so hardly surprising.

Cookie_Monster

lxflyer wrote: »

Those losses don't just get swept away and forgotten about - the world doesn't work like that. They have to be recovered

Well, not always. if there is 25-27m of depreciation each year causing losses then there no problem with that. Well until they sell the gear as they vastly over depreciate the buses on a yearly basis. So really only 2010 is a potential major issue cash loss wise.

what's this:

Other debtors and accrued income 28m

Who owes DB that much cash? Annual ticket sales partially accrued? found the note for it

Victor

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Well, not always. if there is 25-27m of depreciation each year causing losses then there no problem with that. Well until they sell the gear as they vastly over depreciate the buses on a yearly basis. So really only 2010 is a potential major issue cash loss wise.

what's this:
Who owes DB that much cash? Annual ticket sales partially accrued? found the note for it

NTA - subsidy & Leap Card
DSP - free travel
CIÉ - Taxsaver, advertising revenue
Insurers - CIÉ and third-party
Taxsaver customers, where there is an annual contract to pay, but an agreement to pay monthly


The exact treatment of grants, both capital (buses) and subsidy (cash) does strange things to the CIÉ companies accounts.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

How in the name of all that is holy does Dublin STILL not have an integrated ticketing system for public trasnport....?

rhoa

lxflyer wrote: »

With respect - look at the current DB balance sheet. It's still an unholy mess with massive accumulated losses. A P & L account is only for one year - the Balance Sheet is key to assessing the company's overall financial health.

And if you are suggesting that professional qualified accountants (of which I am one) are prepared to put their necks on the line by producing false and misleading accounts then I think you may need to retract that suggestion.

I find that very insulting to my profession.

You are effectively calling us liars.

Unless you look at the individual cost elements you cannot make sweeping statements like you have just done.

Liar liar pants on fire.
Hollywood blockbusters officially loose money with a little help from creative accountants, google Forest Gump lost money.
Have a google of Tesla motors and GAAP, you can get the smell of the books cooking in California all the way over here in Ireland.
Last year all DB drivers where earning E60k when they where striking, now that the LUAS drivers are striking for a pay rise i see in the paper DB drivers earn E28k.
Accountants might be honest when doing work for a individual, but not all the time when working for big business.

oppenheimer1

MrMorooka wrote: »

Can you explain why Transdev is in a contract that is losing them large amounts of money?

Perhaps because they're paying the drivers too much already?

end of the road

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Perhaps because they're paying the drivers too much already?

that wouldn't be it. if they were paying them too much then they wouldn't have paid it in the first place

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

that wouldn't be it. if they were paying them too much then they wouldn't have paid it in the first place

Therefore nobody is overpaid in the world.

The bankers are not overpaid because they wouldn't have been paid it in the first place.

Neither would management.

Victor

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

How in the name of all that is holy does Dublin STILL not have an integrated ticketing system for public trasnport....?

Do you mean like Leap Card? Or do you mean like combined Dublin Bus / Luas tickets?

Victor

rhoa wrote: »

Last year all DB drivers where earning E60k when they where striking, now that the LUAS drivers are striking for a pay rise i see in the paper DB drivers earn E28k.

I see that you are banned, so I'm not sure if you'll see this.

There is a difference between (a) basic wage and total cost of package and (b) starting wage, average wage and maximum wage.

I strongly suspect you are picking and choosing to suit your argument, which would be hypocritical.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Victor wrote: »

Do you mean like Leap Card? Or do you mean like combined Dublin Bus / Luas tickets?

As in buy a single one-off ticket on a bus an then transfer to a luas or dart and not have to buy another one.

Penny Tration

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

As in buy a single one-off ticket on a bus an then transfer to a luas or dart and not have to buy another one.

Like a 1 day bus and rail or a day bus and kiss rambler? They've been in existence for ages

cdebru

Victor wrote: »

I see that you are banned, so I'm not sure if you'll see this.

There is a difference between (a) basic wage and total cost of package and (b) starting wage, average wage and maximum wage.

I strongly suspect you are picking and choosing to suit your argument, which would be hypocritical.

How is he being hypocritical ? he is pointing out that when DB staff were on strike the media were full of figures like the average DB wage to make it seem as high as possible, but now to make it look like Luas staff are already highly paid they are selecting the lowest figure possible and portraying that as the DB wage so that Luas compares favourably to it.
How does him pointing that out make him a hypocrite ?

Victor

cdebru wrote: »

How is he being hypocritical ? he is pointing out that when DB staff were on strike the media were full of figures like the average DB wage to make it seem as high as possible, but now to make it look like Luas staff are already highly paid they are selecting the lowest figure possible and portraying that as the DB wage so that Luas compares favourably to it.
How does him pointing that out make him a hypocrite ?

He is doing what he is accusing others of doing.

cdebru

Victor wrote: »

He is doing what he is accusing others of doing.

No I think you should read it again he was pointing out the anomaly between the figures used in the media when they are attacking Dublin bus staff and when they are attacking luas staff. There is a huge difference between the figures and neither are correct.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Penny Tration wrote: »

Like a 1 day bus and rail or a day bus and kiss rambler? They've been in existence for ages

For single journeys? I stand corrected, if so.

xper

Penny Tration wrote: »

Like a 1 day bus and rail or a day bus and kiss rambler? They've been in existence for ages

I couldn't blame drivers going on strike if they tried to introduce that. Brings a new meaning to "Dwell times".