Largest Towns Which are NOT Rail Connected?

The Chieftain

I would guess that leading contenders with no passenger service are:
- Navan, with a population of around 25k (due to recent growth). It is on a freight only line.
- New Ross, ca 10k
- Tramore, ca 10k
- Youghal, ca 7k

What are the prospects for passenger service to any of these towns? Navan was supposed to be phase II of the new line, that goes pretty much nowhere right now, and is on an active freight line.
New Ross and Youghal both have derelict lines that could be reinstated.
Tramore would be almost impossible,

lottpaul

Letterkenny 20,000

flazio

Cashel

Del.Monte

Monaghan (8,000)
Cavan (10,767)
Enniskillen (13,599)

I'm sure there's more. More realistic would be a list of large towns that will soon lose their rail services.

Clonmel, Waterford, Nenagh, Roscrea, Sligo, Enniscorthy, Wexford.....

elastico

Shannon has 10000 people, lots of inbound commuters every day and an airport. There was a plan for a spur from Sixmilebridge, I believe the alignment corridor is reserved from development but it won't happen any time soon.

_Brian

Navan has to be an obvious main town where it makes no sense not to have a commuter rail link. However, with the governments agreement to sub the M3 of numbers fall I can't see it happening soon as it would kill the M3 traffic through the tolls.

cgcsb

Swords??

Mike238747

Omagh.........22000
Strabane.......17500
Dungannon....16000

All of course on the GNR Derry Road. The closure of the Derry Road must rank as one of the biggest blunders in Irish railway history.

tabbey

Mike238747 wrote: »

Omagh.........22000
Strabane.......17500
Dungannon....16000

All of course on the GNR Derry Road. The closure of the Derry Road must rank as one of the biggest blunders in Irish railway history.

Very true

Mehaffey1

Armagh?

Banjoxed

Del.Monte wrote: »

Monaghan (8,000)
Cavan (10,767)
Enniskillen (13,599)

I'm sure there's more. More realistic would be a list of large towns that will soon lose their rail services.

Clonmel, Waterford, Nenagh, Roscrea, Sligo, Enniscorthy, Wexford.....

This was raised before, and it did not come to pass. It isn't going to to shift me to Shane "Viva Syriza" Ross's alliance etc ad nauseum unless something substantial to back up your assertion breaks cover soon.

Banjoxed

lottpaul wrote: »

Letterkenny 20,000

Every time Letterkenny and rail are mentioned in the same post a libertarian has a little funny turn.

Won't someone think of the libertarians?

ClovenHoof

elastico wrote: »

Shannon has 10000 people, lots of inbound commuters every day and an airport. There was a plan for a spur from Sixmilebridge, I believe the alignment corridor is reserved from development but it won't happen any time soon.

That 'plan' was never real. It was a ruse by a property developer to get zoning on the land between the rail line and Shannon so they could build loads of houses boyo! Then the mosherway!


Swords is the biggest town without a rail connection.

ClovenHoof

Mike238747 wrote: »

All of course on the GNR Derry Road. The closure of the Derry Road must rank as one of the biggest blunders in Irish railway history.

Except it was not a 'blunder' - it was economic warfare...

ClovenHoof

Even if Letterkenny had 100,000 people a rail connection would still be near impossible to justify.

postitnote

Newtownards (28,000)

Formerly part of the Belfast and County Down railway to Donaghadee

6 May 1858 Station opens

24 April 1950 Station closes

I believe I win No-Rail Top Trumps for biggest population?

Edit: Maybe not, I just looked up Swords' population.

cgcsb

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Even if Letterkenny had 100,000 people a rail connection would still be near impossible to justify.

Why? a rail connection to Derry need only be 30km long, the capital cost would not be massive.

cgcsb

Swords is of course the winner here with a 69,000 population (2011 census) and growth projections putting it into 6 digits in the near future. What makes Swords situation worse is it's proximity to and therefor commuter demand for trips to Dublin City and Dublin Airport. The other towns in question are generally not commuter towns, perhaps with the exception of Navan.

Elemonator

I think you are all forgetting a big one.........Swords! It had a population of 68,000 in 2011 and its only got buses. There was plans to link it to the Metro but we all know the story there.

ClovenHoof

cgcsb wrote: »

Why? a rail connection to Derry need only be 30km long, the capital cost would not be massive.

and would still provide a pointless service to the rail money shot destinations of Belfast and Dublin.

Buses would crucify it from day one like the WRC.

ClovenHoof

The overwhelmingly majority of people do not take trains because they love them, it is ONLY due to how useful they are.

Swords wins this by a mile.

cgcsb

ClovenHoof wrote: »

and would still provide a pointless service to the rail money shot destinations of Belfast and Dublin.

Buses would crucify it from day one like the WRC.

Not sure I'd agree with that. Works are ongoing to improve the Derry-Belfast service. If real money was put into improving speeds on Belfast-Derry and the Letterkenny-Derry extension was built to proper modern standards, unlike the WRC where a victorian route was revived instead of considering a new route, then I think Letterkenny-Belfast trains could indeed be competitive with road.

A modern rail link between Leterkenny and Derry alone could achieve half the road journey time between them.

Of course all of the above would require political will from both governments and that's just not in place unfortunately. Also in terms of new transport infrastructure, anything other than building DARTu and Metro North at this stage is just tinkering around the edges.

L1011

Letterkenny to Derry and Belfast doesn't have a fraction of the traffic to justify rail. Itd have to be Dublin and not via Coleraine

ClovenHoof

Youghal might be the dark horse here. Not too far from a well rebuilt branch to Midelton with an established service.

Jem72

You could also argue that there are a lot of connected small towns or indeed areas full of green fields that really should be considered as being candidates for building a lot of housing in the near future. Dublin is chronically short of housing yet there are loads of fairly sparsely populated areas right by stations on both the Kildare line and the Maynooth line.

In terms of towns which would offer the best return on investment, Navan and Youghal are the most obvious candidates but it's not likely to happen while Fine Gael are in government unless they somehow end up needing the support of a couple of Greens which isn't terribly likely.

Jem72

You could also argue that there are a lot of connected small towns or indeed areas full of green fields that really should be considered as being candidates for building a lot of housing in the near future. Dublin is chronically short of housing yet there are loads of fairly sparsely populated areas right by stations on both the Kildare line and the Maynooth line.

In terms of towns which would offer the best return on investment, Navan and Youghal are the most obvious candidates but it's not likely to happen while Fine Gael are in government unless they somehow end up needing the support of a couple of Greens which isn't terribly likely.

Grandeeod

Swords by a big distance.

Youghal with a population of 7k is not on unless both the town and area between it and Midleton were developed. Just because its beyond a new rail link, doesn't mean it has to happen. In saying that, the alignment should be protected.

Navan. A massive red herring that a lot of people fell for. In the mid 90s a lot of housing development went on and was sold to people on the basis of a new rail link being provided. Considering the amount of green space in Dublin, Navan (along with a lot of other towns near Dublin) should never have been developed the way it was. It was a victim of the BS that went on in Dublin and was exported as far as Longford for example. Navan's problem was that it was originally rail connected via the Clonsilla route so it became a political football among a few TDs and councillors. The funny thing was, none of them actually cared. As of today the route has been severed at many points and a motorway exists (like it or not) that completely negates the need for reinstating the rail line. This motorway was planned and built while the same TDs and councillors were pontificating about the railway.

Banjoxed

Grandeeod wrote: »

Swords by a big distance.

Youghal with a population of 7k is not on unless both the town and area between it and Midleton were developed. Just because its beyond a new rail link, doesn't mean it has to happen. In saying that, the alignment should be protected.

Navan. A massive red herring that a lot of people fell for. In the mid 90s a lot of housing development went on and was sold to people on the basis of a new rail link being provided. Considering the amount of green space in Dublin, Navan (along with a lot of other towns near Dublin) should never have been developed the way it was. It was a victim of the BS that went on in Dublin and was exported as far as Longford for example. Navan's problem was that it was originally rail connected via the Clonsilla route so it became a political football among a few TDs and councillors. The funny thing was, none of them actually cared. As of today the route has been severed at many points and a motorway exists (like it or not) that completely negates the need for reinstating the rail line. This motorway was planned and built while the same TDs and councillors were pontificating about the railway.

Re Navan:

Let's not forget during this GE campaign Noel Dempsey and Fianna Fail's utter cyncism in ramping up the railway to Navan as an issue in the period between 2005 and 2011.

Dempsey delivered alright but it was to the landowners and builders after selling people the puppiest of pups.

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/73117?userlanguage=ga&save_prefs=true

Technique

Apart from Donegal, are there any other counties with no current railway? Fermanagh? Cavan? Monaghan?

Victor

cgcsb wrote: »

Swords is of course the winner here with a 69,000 population (2011 census)

Elemonator wrote: »

I think you are all forgetting a big one.........Swords! It had a population of 68,000 in 2011 and its only got buses.

How did you both come up with similar, different wrong answers, quoting the same source? In 2011, the population of Swords was 36,924, with another 5,814 in Kinsealy-Drinan. Even the Swords local authority area (boundaries may have changed) only had 60,583.

Technique wrote: »

Apart from Donegal, are there any other counties with no current railway? Fermanagh? Cavan? Monaghan?

People get on trains. Counties can't get on trains. Asking the question you do is simplistic and akin to county colours waving. A much better question is "where is less accessible to the railway system?"

To answer your question. Tyrone. Aso, Waterford is rather tangental - there is 3km of mainline (mostly freight only), but it is all on the north side of the Suir and within 400 meters of Kilkenny. Aside from areas along the border, note that parts of West Cork, Kerry, Clare, Galway are 80-100km to a train station. However, many of these areas are both remote and sparsely populated.

I put a random-sized circle around various stations. [Boards.ie is having issues with attachments.]

end of the road

Mike238747 wrote: »

Omagh.........22000
Strabane.......17500
Dungannon....16000

All of course on the GNR Derry Road. The closure of the Derry Road must rank as one of the biggest blunders in Irish railway history.

i'd suggest it was a deliberate act of sabotage, by a toxic authority who wanted to take out a big gun as an f you in revenge for being abolished.

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Youghal might be the dark horse here. Not too far from a well rebuilt branch to Midelton with an established service.

won't happen in our lifetime anyway if at all.

The Chieftain

Victor wrote: »

Aso, Waterford is rather tangental - there is 3km of mainline (mostly freight only), but it is all on the north side of the Suir and within 400 meters of Kilkenny.

In the traditional scheme of things, no part of the IR network was located in Co. Waterford. The IR station for Waterford and associated lines arelocated in Waterford City, which was a separate county borough onto itself. Of course, in the recent "reforms", city and council have been amalgamated.

The Chieftain

Grandeeod wrote: »

Swords by a big distance.

Swords is really just a suburb of Dublin. I think it would be better and keep things more fair if we limit the discussion to traditional separate towns.

Victor

The Chieftain wrote: »

Swords is really just a suburb of Dublin. I think it would be better and keep things more fair if we limit the discussion to traditional separate towns.

People use trains. Traditions can't use trains. People in Swords are as entitled as anyone else to use a train.

Swords is not contiguous to Dublin, hence the CSO count it separately.

How would you define "traditional separate towns"?

Banjoxed

Victor wrote: »

People get on trains. Counties can't get on trains. Asking the question you do is simplistic and akin to county colours waving. A much better question is "where is less accessible to the railway system?"

Gee Victor, why the tetchiness? Counties are as good a shorthand for subregions in Ireland as anything. In any case a substantial chunk of Ireland is rail free, bounded by the Sligo line, the Belfast line and the Belfast-Derry line. And that was everything to do with the Ulster Unionist politics of the fifties and sixties, and the refusal of the Lemass government in 1965 to fund CIE's rights to run trains from Dublin to Dungannon, Omagh, Strabane and Derry via Portadown. Donegal could have been connected to the network by the simple expedient of retaining and modernising Strabane to Letterkenny.

Elemonator

Victor wrote: »

How did you both come up with similar, different wrong answers, quoting the same source? In 2011, the population of Swords was 36,924, with another 5,814 in Kinsealy-Drinan. Even the Swords local authority area (boundaries may have changed) only had 60,583.

People get on trains. Counties can't get on trains. Asking the question you do is simplistic and akin to county colours waving. A much better question is "where is less accessible to the railway system?"

To answer your question. Tyrone. Aso, Waterford is rather tangental - there is 3km of mainline (mostly freight only), but it is all on the north side of the Suir and within 400 meters of Kilkenny. Aside from areas along the border, note that parts of West Cork, Kerry, Clare, Galway are 80-100km to a train station. However, many of these areas are both remote and sparsely populated.

I put a random-sized circle around various stations. [Boards.ie is having issues with attachments.]

According to my census data, at the 2011 census the total urban population of greater Swords was 42,738 but when local electoral area definitions are taken into account, the population is 68,583.

Victor

Banjoxed wrote: »

Gee Victor, why the tetchiness? Counties are as good a shorthand for subregions in Ireland as anything.

Because some people think that all countries are directly equivalent and therefore demand equal treatment and resources, but like the lobsters in the pot, drag each other back in, so they all die.

The reality is that Dublin has 40 times the population of Longford. Dublin has the population equivalent of Carlow, Cavan, Clare, Fermanagh, Kilkenny, Laois, Leitrim, Longford, Louth, Mayo, Monaghan, Offaly, Roscommon, Sligo, Waterford and Westmeath put together.

Cork is 9 times the size of Louth. From one end of Cork to the other is the equivalent of Dublin-Belfast.

But no, some people live in counties with no railways. Woe is them.

Banjoxed

Victor wrote: »

Because some people think that all countries are directly equivalent and therefore demand equal treatment and resources, but like the lobsters in the pot, drag each other back in, so they all die.

The reality is that Dublin has 40 times the population of Longford. Dublin has the population equivalent of Carlow, Cavan, Clare, Fermanagh, Kilkenny, Laois, Leitrim, Longford, Louth, Mayo, Monaghan, Offaly, Roscommon, Sligo, Waterford and Westmeath put together.

Cork is 9 times the size of Louth. From one end of Cork to the other is the equivalent of Dublin-Belfast.

But no, some people live in counties with no railways. Woe is them.

"All pigs are created equal, but some pigs are more equal than others". I note you didn't engage with my substantive point about official Northern Ireland and official (Republic of) Ireland being directly responsible for the wastelands, but hey ho.

The Chieftain

Victor wrote: »

People use trains. Traditions can't use trains. People in Swords are as entitled as anyone else to use a train.

There may be plenty of places in Dublin or Greater Dublin that could do with train service. I just don't think this is the thread for them.

Victor wrote: »

How would you define "traditional separate towns"?

I think I know them when I see them. You probably do too, despite your protestations.

The Chieftain

Victor wrote: »

The reality is that Dublin has 40 times the population of Longford. Dublin has the population equivalent of Carlow, Cavan, Clare, Fermanagh, Kilkenny, Laois, Leitrim, Longford, Louth, Mayo, Monaghan, Offaly, Roscommon, Sligo, Waterford and Westmeath put together.

Cork is 9 times the size of Louth. From one end of Cork to the other is the equivalent of Dublin-Belfast.

But no, some people live in counties with no railways. Woe is them.

LONG LIVE PALERAIL!

NIMAN

Technique wrote: »

Apart from Donegal, are there any other counties with no current railway? Fermanagh? Cavan? Monaghan?

We barely have roads up here!;)

elastico

Swords is adjacent to the dart though. Less than 2km to a station? It might not have a station in its own name, but 2km is pretty close.

n97 mini

Dungarvan, population of around 8000.

Used to have a railway connection to Waterford Plunkett, which was closed and replaced by a bus service from Waterford Plunkett. In CIE's infinite wisdom the bus service was moved out of the station and across the river. Not great for people with bags or suitcases, i.e. the travelling public.

People don't even really use the shiny new bus station, instead they wait across the street in Dooley's Hotel where it's warmer and the service is better.

Yawns

Naas - About 20k population.

Sallins is about 3km away which has a station but the town of Naas does not

Yawns

Naas - About 20k population.

Sallins is about 3km away which has a station but the town of Naas does not

cgcsb

L1011 wrote: »

Letterkenny to Derry and Belfast doesn't have a fraction of the traffic to justify rail. Itd have to be Dublin and not via Coleraine

Yet the road between Belfast and Derry is quite congested at points so obviously there is significant demand for travel along that corridor, it's simply a matter of capturing it for rail through improved services. Extending the line to Letterkenny would involve a mere 30km of track.

n97 mini

Yawns wrote: »

Naas - About 20k population.

Sallins is about 3km away which has a station but the town of Naas does not

Similarly Celbridge, population 21,347. Hazelhatch is far enough away to require a feeder bus.

cgcsb

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Youghal might be the dark horse here. Not too far from a well rebuilt branch to Midelton with an established service.

Excellent point, the traffic around Youghal can also be horrific and the bus service isn't up to much. Swords is still very much number 1 though, it's a contest for runner up.

cgcsb

Grandeeod wrote: »

Swords by a big distance.

Youghal with a population of 7k is not on unless both the town and area between it and Midleton were developed. Just because its beyond a new rail link, doesn't mean it has to happen. In saying that, the alignment should be protected.

Navan. A massive red herring that a lot of people fell for. In the mid 90s a lot of housing development went on and was sold to people on the basis of a new rail link being provided. Considering the amount of green space in Dublin, Navan (along with a lot of other towns near Dublin) should never have been developed the way it was. It was a victim of the BS that went on in Dublin and was exported as far as Longford for example. Navan's problem was that it was originally rail connected via the Clonsilla route so it became a political football among a few TDs and councillors. The funny thing was, none of them actually cared. As of today the route has been severed at many points and a motorway exists (like it or not) that completely negates the need for reinstating the rail line. This motorway was planned and built while the same TDs and councillors were pontificating about the railway.

The problem with the motorway is that it doesn't really do you much good when you are spending up to an hour driving between Cabra Cross and the City Centre and you can't park anywhere anyway. Or if you get a bus that has to merge with normal traffic at Cabra.

A frequent DART service would reliably get you from Navan to City Centre in a little over an hour total each day.

sting60

Swords/Fingal
north co.Dublin has a population of approx 125k which the airport can be incorporated. There is absolutely no place in Ireland that requires a rail more than this area for very obvious reasons.D4 political influence made sure the Luas ran south yet the traffic from above area would be ten times its volume.

cgcsb

Technique wrote: »

Apart from Donegal, are there any other counties with no current railway? Fermanagh? Cavan? Monaghan?

Leitrim is technically unserved as Carrick's station is technically in Roscommon. Other than that you have:

Donegal, Tyrone, Fermanagh, Cavan and Monaghan.

That's somewhat due to the economic devastation caused by partition and the troubles.

Meath and Armagh are only served by stations on the periphery of their county boundaries.