Falsifying documents for school enrollment

evolving_doors

So, say if a parent decided to cook up a baptism Cert to get their offspring into a school... Would there be any legal consequences if they were found out subsequently (with the child having started in the school).
Also, Would it be a civil or criminal matter ?

SmartinMartin

It's classic fraud. Offering a false instrument/document for the purposes of gain.

SmartinMartin

Sorry, didn't see the second part of your post. To answer your question, it would be a criminal matter, specifically forgery and using a false instrument under the criminal justice act 2001.

riffmongous

I'd be surprised if it became a matter though, surely the publicity and the questions that would be raised about why this was necessary would ensure the whole thing was dealt with discreetly and unofficially?

.G.

Surely it'll be a problem when it comes to communion time too if the child wasn't actually baptised. Have a late baptism and solve the problem.

TonyStark

Gebgbegb wrote: »

So, say if a parent decided to cook up a baptism Cert to get their offspring into a school... Would there be any legal consequences if they were found out subsequently (with the child having started in the school).
Also, Would it be a civil or criminal matter ?

Parish records are easily checked and are remarkably well maintained, it would eventually come out if pursued.

MarkAnthony

I sometimes believe that Ireland is keeping pace with the rest of Europe, that we're a small nimble modern country, then I remember the Schools! :pac:

Mena

superg wrote: »

Have a late baptism and solve the problem.

So much wrong with that statement I'm not even capable of deciding where to start. Sure, let the discrimination continue why not.

goz83

superg wrote: »

Surely it'll be a problem when it comes to communion time too if the child wasn't actually baptised. Have a late baptism and solve the problem.

Mena wrote: »

So much wrong with that statement I'm not even capable of deciding where to start. Sure, let the discrimination continue why not.

Beaten to it.

xz

Religion should have no basis to be a requirement for enrolling a child into school. It's an archaic practice from a bygone Era, and given the diversity in culture now in our schools, it is technically discrimination

dr.fuzzenstein

xz wrote: »

Religion should have no basis to be a requirement for enrolling a child into school. It's an archaic practice from a bygone Era, and given the diversity in culture now in our schools, it is technically discrimination

And if I understand it right, it is state protected and sanctioned discrimination on religious grounds. How very Saudi Arabian of us. Wonder what the EU will have to say about that.

haveringchick

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

And if I understand it right, it is state protected and sanctioned discrimination on religious grounds. How very Saudi Arabian of us. Wonder what the EU will have to say about that.

If you know anything at all about Saudi Arabia, even a basic rudimentary few bits of information about how Saudi is run, the injustice and the barbarism, then you would be ashamed to make that post, and I challenge you to back up your claim, with links,that Ireland can be compared with Saudi Arabia, on any level

xz

haveringchick wrote:

If you know anything at all about Saudi Arabia, even a basic rudimentary few bits of information about how Saudi is run, the injustice and the barbarism, then you would be ashamed to make that post, and I challenge you to back up your claim, with links,that Ireland can be compared with Saudi Arabia, on any level

Relax, it was a tongue-in-cheek remark, not a statement of factual comparison, but I got his point

haveringchick

xz wrote: »

Relax, it was a tongue-in-cheek remark, not a statement of factual comparison, but I got his point

What point has he got exactly? How is Ireland's school enrolment policy like Saudi Arabias then?

Arbiter of Good Taste

xz wrote: »

Relax, it was a tongue-in-cheek remark, not a statement of factual comparison, but I got his point

No, it's not tongue in cheek, it is needless hyperbole, and completely destroys any credibility that poster might otherwise have had.

xz

It's not, but the very idea that you have to be baptized to enroll in a school is religious zealosy, that's the comparison that can be made to Saudi Arabia, religious law, pure and simple, nothing else..... Simple statement that you have read too much into

haveringchick

xz wrote: »

It's not, but the very idea that you have to be baptized to enroll in a school is religious zealosy, that's the comparison that can be made to Saudi Arabia, religious law, pure and simple, nothing else..... Simple statement that you have read too much into

If as you claim, Irish school enrolment policy dictates that on baptised children may be enrolled, then how do you explain the many many children of Islamic faith who go to practically every school in this country?

xz

haveringchick wrote:

If as you claim, Irish school enrolment policy dictates that on baptised children may be enrolled, then how do you explain the many many children of Islamic faith who go to practically every school in this country?

For one, I never claimed that Irish school enrollment policy dictates that ONLY baptised children may be enrolled, but, having put 2 children through school it was a pre-requisite to give a copy of baptism cert, what if I'm an atheist, and didn't have my children baptised.
Secondly, I'm not going to spend my Sunday, defending a remark not posted by me in the first place, as this thread is going off topic from the OP

haveringchick

xz wrote: »

For one, I never claimed that Irish school enrollment policy dictates that ONLY baptised children may be enrolled, but, having put 2 children through school it was a pre-requisite to give a copy of baptism cert, what if I'm an atheist, and didn't have my children baptised.
Secondly, I'm not going to spend my Sunday, defending a remark not posted by me in the first place, as this thread is going off topic from the OP

You jumped in quickly enough to defend the original poster, Sunday or not, and I'll take it that you now accept that it's not true that you have to produce a Baptismal certificate in order to enroll a child in an Irish school, given that you're not making any attempt to explain how this fairytale would correlate with all the quite clearly unbaptised Muslim children who are doing very well every day in every school in Ireland

xz

If you have an Irish born child, it is presumed you are Catholic and have been baptised, the fact remains that, on enrollment to school, unless it's an Educate Together school, you are asked to provide copies of baptism, I'm presuming, this is what happened with the OP, and that the OP didn't have their child baptised. A lot of schools in Ireland still have a very Strong Church connection, and local Parish priests are normally on the Board of Management of their Parish schools

xz

haveringchick wrote:

You jumped in quickly enough to defend the original poster, Sunday or not, and I'll take it that you now accept that it's not true that you have to produce a Baptismal certificate in order to enroll a child in an Irish school, given that you're not making any attempt to explain how this fairytale would correlate with all the quite clearly unbaptised Muslim children who are doing very well every day in every school in Ireland

Try enrolling your Irish born child without a baptism certificate, see how you get on, you might get lucky with a few school's, but the majority, you won't, the point is still, there is too much of a Church connection in our schools, and this should not be the case

haveringchick

xz wrote: »

If you have an Irish born child, it is presumed you are Catholic and have been baptised, the fact remains that, on enrollment to school, unless it's an Educate Together school, you are asked to provide copies of baptism, I'm presuming, this is what happened with the OP, and that the OP didn't have their child baptised. A lot of schools in Ireland still have a very Strong Church connection, and local Parish priests are normally on the Board of Management of their Parish schools

But many of the Muslim children are Irishborn and have Irish birth certificates, and lots of them are white.
Are you alleging racism against the school? That only white Irish children have to produce Baptismal certificates? That would be extraordinary, no?

haveringchick

xz wrote: »

Try enrolling your Irish born child without a baptism certificate, see how you get on, you might get lucky with a few school's, but the majority, you won't, the point is still, there is too much of a Church connection in our schools, and this should not be the case

But your not explaining to me how Muslim children many of whom are Irishborn, and many more naturalised Irish citizens, with Irish birth certificates are attending school everyday?

xz

haveringchick wrote:

But many of the Muslim children are Irishborn and have Irish birth certificates, and lots of them are white. Are you alleging racism against the school? That only white Irish children have to produce Baptismal certificates? That would be extraordinary, no?

Do you have children?, have you put them through school?, forget the Saudi Arabia thing, that's not the topic here, the original poster was obviously and clearly asked to produce a document for enrolling their child into school, that they do not have, so they falsified it. The point I have been trying, and obviously failing to make, is, that there should be no basis whatsoever for a school to ask for a Baptism cert to enrol a child into school

c montgomery

Mena wrote: »

So much wrong with that statement I'm not even capable of deciding where to start. Sure, let the discrimination continue why not.

Find a school that suits your requirements!
Boo hoo you may have to drive a little further

haveringchick

xz wrote: »

Do you have children?, have you put them through school?, forget the Saudi Arabia thing, that's not the topic here, the original poster was obviously and clearly asked to produce a document for enrolling their child into school, that they do not have, so they falsified it. The point I have been trying, and obviously failing to make, is, that there should be no basis whatsoever for a school to ask for a Baptism cert to enrol a child into school

I doubt very much if all or any of the Muslim parents falsified Baptismal certificates for their Muslim children
If you take a look at the A&A forum you will see heated discussion amongst Atheists who have children enrolled in school with no baptismal certificate.
Please tell me, if you insist that a baptismal certificate is a prerequisite, how all these parents succeeded in enrolling their non-baptised children in Irish schools
PS yes I do have kids, not that it makes any difference to my having an opinion on the matter

Victor

Baptism is a Christian rite, not an exclusively Roman Catholic one.

Do these schools look for a baptism cert or a Roman Catholic baptism cert?

Can one make their own, 'independent Christian church' baptism cert (and not be accused of fraud)?

Mena

c montgomery wrote: »

Find a school that suits your requirements!
Boo hoo you may have to drive a little further

How is that even the point? 95% + primary schools here favour catholic baptised kids. That's just the way it is. Does your boohoo extend to women trying to get into the workforce or break through the glass ceiling or gay people being singled out and targeted in society or is your blinkered view limited to religious intolerance?

xz

Mena wrote:

How is that even the point? 95% + primary schools here favour catholic baptised kids. That's just the way it is. Does your boohoo extend to women trying to get into the workforce or break through the glass ceiling or gay people being singled out and targeted in society or is your blinkered view limited to religious intolerance?

Finally, someone with sense.

xz

haveringchick wrote:

I doubt very much if all or any of the Muslim parents falsified Baptismal certificates for their Muslim children If you take a look at the A&A forum you will see heated discussion amongst Atheists who have children enrolled in school with no baptismal certificate. Please tell me, if you insist that a baptismal certificate is a prerequisite, how all these parents succeeded in enrolling their non-baptised children in Irish schools PS yes I do have kids, not that it makes any difference to my having an opinion on the matter

And I'm betting that you had to provide baptism certs, would I be right?

haveringchick

xz wrote: »

And I'm betting that you had to provide baptism certs, would I be right?

Yes. When I wanted her to make her First Eucharist after 1st class, I naturally had to provide proof that she had been baptised a Catholic
Do you think that non Catholic children should be allowed to participate in First Eucharist and Confirmation?
When will you be explaining how Irish born Muslim children have not been excluded from Irish schools, if, as you insist, a baptismal certificate is a prerequisite?

haveringchick

Mena wrote: »

How is that even the point? 95% + primary schools here favour catholic baptised kids. That's just the way it is. Does your boohoo extend to women trying to get into the workforce or break through the glass ceiling or gay people being singled out and targeted in society or is your blinkered view limited to religious intolerance?

Mena. Good. Apparently you have sense.
Can you explain how,if Irish schools favour baptised children as you claim, how all the many Muslim children in this country are all enrolled in school and none appear to have been refused enrolment, despite quite clearly not having been baptised?

xz

haveringchick wrote:

Yes. When I wanted her to make her First Eucharist after 1st class, I naturally had to provide proof that she had been baptised a Catholic Do you think that non Catholic children should be allowed to participate in First Eucharist and Confirmation? When will you be explaining how Irish born Muslim children have not been excluded from Irish schools, if, as you insist, a baptismal certificate is a prerequisite?

You are still missing the point, the vast majority of National schools ask for Baptism certs for children, Muslims, Jews, Hindu etc OBVIOUSLY excluded, from the point of enrollment, not when Communion time comes around, as was the case with OP

.G.

Mena wrote:

So much wrong with that statement I'm not even capable of deciding where to start. Sure, let the discrimination continue why not.

I didn't say I agreed with the system but what's the easier solution for one family to take, fight the system and the Catholic schools or get the child baptised and let someone else take on the system? And if they don't want baptism put them in an educate together.

haveringchick

xz wrote: »

You are still missing the point, the vast majority of National schools ask for Baptism certs for children, Muslims, Jews, Hindu etc OBVIOUSLY excluded, from the point of enrollment, not when Communion time comes around, as was the case with OP

So your alleging that, at the point of enrolment, white Irish non religious children are discrimated against in favour of non white Irish but religious children of any other faith?
Firstly, how does the Principal identify a white non religious child from a white let's say, Muslim child?
Secondly, have you any links to back up your allegations?
Thirdly, can you give me the stats on non religious being homeschooled, as obviously according to you they are refused enrolment and must then be homeschooled

xz

haveringchick wrote:

So your alleging that, at the point of enrolment, white Irish non religious children are discrimated against in favour of non white Irish but religious children of any other faith? Firstly, how does the Principal identify a white non religious child from a white let's say, Muslim child? Secondly, have you any links to back up your allegations? Thirdly, can you give me the stats on non religious being homeschooled, as obviously according to you they are refused enrolment and must then be homeschooled

Are you living in a fantasy world, no one is claiming discrimination against children of other Faith's, and they obviously get enrolled in schools, but as had already been stated the vast majority of schools require baptism certificates for, as you call them "white, Irish children" some schools will not enrol a non baptised "white Irish child" (your words) this is a despicable, but very real fact, you are twisting things to win a debate. All schools should operate as the Educate Together schools do..... I'm obviously not making my point clear to you, and to be honest, I'm getting bored now, this thread, as, many do on Boards, has degenerated from the OP, into a slanging match, and for my part in that, I apologize.
I wish the OP well in their endeavor to get a worthy answer to their questions

haveringchick

The only person living in a fantasy world is you, a world in which a baptismal cert was demanded from you, but apparently nobody else
Boring indeed
Have a nice Sunday

xz

haveringchick wrote:

The only person living in a fantasy world is you, a world in which a baptismal cert was demanded from you, but apparently nobody else Boring indeed Have a nice Sunday

Thank you, I will, you too

Wabbit Ears

On the specific subject I'd say it's fraud and a criminal matter. As to whether the child could be expelled for it is a very different question.


Lots of catholics in Ireland go on that it's ok because the issue don't affect them and don't believe for a second that the shoe could be on the other foot.

If,say, a saudi prince started buying up Irish catholic schools and changed the policy to Muslim kids only and suddenly the catholics found that this "ah sure it's a short drive to an educate together" applied to them you'd see them and their pitchforks out quicksmart.

Of course the irony of their complete lack of empathy is lost on your average catholic.

Victor

haveringchick wrote: »

Thirdly, can you give me the stats on non religious being homeschooled, as obviously according to you they are refused enrolment and must then be homeschooled

The discrimination is based on priority to get into specific schools.

If Catholic children in a particular area are allowed go to a particular, local (or otherwise desireable) school, but children of other backgrounds have to travel to a distant school, isn't that discrimination?

But, hey, you're the self-confessed bigot, so getting you to see the error of your ways isn't easy.

c montgomery

Mena wrote: »

How is that even the point? 95% + primary schools here favour catholic baptised kids. That's just the way it is. Does your boohoo extend to women trying to get into the workforce or break through the glass ceiling or gay people being singled out and targeted in society or is your blinkered view limited to religious intolerance?

There no point making up arguments to suit your narrative.

Nothing stopping you enrolling your kids in a school that dies not require baptism.

Who's singling out gays or keeping women down?

c montgomery

Victor wrote: »

The discrimination is based on priority to get into specific schools.

If Catholic children in a particular area are allowed go to a particular school, but children of other backgrounds have to travel to a distant school, isn't that discrimination?

But, hey, you're the self-confessed bigot, so getting you to see the error of your ways isn't easy.

Catholic schools prioritising catholic children!! Shock horror!

What next, everyone's kids gets to study medicine as universities are not allowed to "discrimate"on ability.

Need more non Catholic schools in your area, ask your candidates about it when they call looking for you vote.

endacl

haveringchick wrote: »

Do you think that non Catholic children should be allowed to participate in First Eucharist and Confirmation?

Yeah. If they want. Why not? They're just meaningless pantomimes.

xz

c montgomery wrote:

Catholic schools prioritising catholic children!! Shock horror!

c montgomery wrote:

What next, everyone's kids gets to study medicine as universities are not allowed to "discrimate"on ability.

c montgomery wrote:

Need more non Catholic schools in your area, ask your candidates about it when they call looking for you vote.

Schools shouldn't be Religion specific though, that was the point I've been trying to make

dr.fuzzenstein

c montgomery wrote: »

Catholic schools prioritising catholic children!! Shock horror!

What next, everyone's kids gets to study medicine as universities are not allowed to "discrimate"on ability.

Need more non Catholic schools in your area, ask your candidates about it when they call looking for you vote.

Yes! That is exactly the point.
It is illegal anywhere else to offer a public service and discriminate against people based on their religion. Ability is a different thing.
It is a practice condemned by the UN:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/un-body-calls-on-government-to-end-discrimination-against-children-on-religious-grounds-34423743.html
It is supported by the government:
http://www.teachdontpreach.ie/2015/12/jan-osullivan-enforces-religious-discrimination/
Here's a link to a German school that would refuse a pupil based on religion:
Erm, sorry. No links. Not one. Not even mentioned. Issue doesn't arise, because Germany has a 21st century educational system. Ireland doesn't even have a 20th century one.
This whole discussion on a German website would look like this:
The Fuzz: Is it OK for a school to deny my kid entry because he/she wasn't baptised:
Answer: BAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA! Nein!
The End
OK, let's look further in Europe:
No, still no links. Ireland is the only country that has this medieval practice.
Anyone who defends this is a few biscuits short of a sacrament.

haveringchick

endacl wrote: »

Yeah. If they want. Why not? They're just meaningless pantomimes.

In your opinion
In my opinion anyone who would say that to a family who DONT believe it is a meaningless pantomime, is a pathetic bitter little person who, if so clearly capable of such religious intolerance, is potentially also capable of similar racism, sexism, ageism etc and should be regarded as such
Just my opinion

dr.fuzzenstein

haveringchick wrote: »

In your opinion
In my opinion anyone who would say that to a family who DONT believe it is a meaningless pantomime, is a pathetic bitter little person who, if so clearly capable of such religious intolerance, is potentially also capable of similar racism, sexism, ageism etc and should be regarded as such
Just my opinion

To people who baptise a child to get it into a certain school despite not being believers, it is a meaningless pantomime to pledge allegiance to a magic man in the clouds who watches us poop and masturbate.
Actually, it is not a meaningless pantomime. It is an insult to their belief system and discrimination.

haveringchick

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

To people who baptise a child to get it into a certain school despite not being believers, it is a meaningless pantomime to pledge allegiance to a magic man in the clouds who watches us poop and masturbate.

People who baptise children when they don't believe in Christ are cowardly idiots who deserve nothing but everyone's contempt

MarkAnthony

haveringchick wrote: »

In your opinion
In my opinion anyone who would say that to a family who DONT believe it is a meaningless pantomime, is a pathetic bitter little person who, if so clearly capable of such religious intolerance, is potentially also capable of similar racism, sexism, ageism etc and should be regarded as such
Just my opinion

Interesting point of view given your stated opinions in another thread here.

Someone playing an arbitrarily discriminatory system, in this case baptism having anything to do with what school someone can attend, is doing nothing wrong in my eyes and I would venture in the eyes of most people without a vested interest. Ironically enough though, you don't play that system by falsifying documents.

xz

haveringchick wrote:

In your opinion In my opinion anyone who would say that to a family who DONT believe it is a meaningless pantomime, is a pathetic bitter little person who, if so clearly capable of such religious intolerance, is potentially also capable of similar racism, sexism, ageism etc and should be regarded as such Just my opinion

Pot, Kettle, Black..... Just because someone disagrees with your view, you launch into a vitriol, by doing exactly what your opinion states that other person could be potentially capable of

dr.fuzzenstein

haveringchick wrote: »

People who baptise children when they don't believe in Christ are cowardly idiots who deserve nothing but everyone's contempt

I read a few of your posts. I'm glad we disagree, because if you did agree with me, I would have to change my mind.
As for people deliberately perverting an illegal system, I say bravo! I fully support it, they're not doing anything illegal and hopefully this stupid discrimination will soon come to an end.

It's a bit like not openly discriminating against women when hiring for a job, but deliberately not hiring them. Sound familiar?