The Depression/Anxiety Thread must change

Dav

Hi all,

Firstly, let me start by saying that we (Boards HQ, Administrators, Cmods, and Mods) take depression and anxiety in a very serious light. We are all aware of the crippling effects it can have on those who are affected, hell, some of us too share your suffering first hand, and others, see it directly in our friends and loved ones. So the importance, impact, and effects of depression and anxiety are by no means lost on us. This thread, has obviously been a source of comfort, and support for many who use it. It's clear to see that the solidarity, and unity between many of you, acts as a support. Even the venting and releasing that goes on here, clearly has beneficial effects as often just putting something 'out there' can feel like a release.

However, there are clear examples where the thread turns to subjects like self harm, and even suicide. This can be seen regularly enough on the thread, and while indeed, these subjects sometimes do go hand in hand with depression or anxiety, it is a realm of discussion that we simply aren't qualified to handle here on Boards. When the discussion turns to suicide or self harm, there are better people to talk to than those of us here - qualified and professional people who can offer you far higher standards of support that we can. Posting such things (suicide/self harm) publicly, we have no way to know if you're venting, just lashing out, or are indeed suicidal. This is a responsibility we simply can't accommodate, and we feel that by allowing that type of discussion, we may be serving to prevent you seeking the type of support you probably should be seeking.

So, where does this leave us? Well, we have two options:

Option 1 - We simply cease discussion on depression and anxiety. This, I personally think, would be a shame. Again, the impact and effects of depression are not something lost on many of us, some of us share these effects with you, and some of us see them in our loved ones. We know depression is something that needs to be de-stigmatised, and by talking about it, sharing our experiences, we help with dragging Ireland's perceptions of it into the 21st century.

Option 2 - We, with your help and co-operation, allow the conversation to continue in a new thread. The only difference, is we draw the line at suicide, self harm, and any other aspects where people are potentially in danger. Well-being is our top priority, and if we're in any way acting as an unqualified, pseudo support group, then we're a barrier/obstacle in the way of people utilizing an actual, qualified, and professional form of support. We would ask your help in reporting any posts where users cross this line, so they can be directed to external supports who can help them in a far greater capacity than we can.

We believe option 2 seems the best compromise here folks, and again, please know that we do have a duty of care to you all, when we are the ones providing the platform for your discussion. Sincere apologies if any of the above comes across as patronising, or ignorant...but again, we're trying to put safety and well being first, and as such, our motives are genuine. Finally, we know depression does not equal suicide in the vast majority of instances, we know there are a myriad of different forms, effects, manifestations, and so forth. We need to consider the well being though of the minority, as well as the majority.

Thanks for reading folks, and as always, we appreciate any constructive feedback you can offer in helping us find a compromise.

trixychic

So is this replacing the anxiety/depression discussion thread??? Sorry I'm a bit dopey.

Euphoria Intensifies

Hi Dav, LTI mods et al.

As a regular user of the anxiety/depression thread, I can understand where boards HQ are coming from with this decision. I think Option 2 is the best way forward.

The thread and its predecessors have been a very important place for many of us, and a place where we have generally felt accepted and made some friends who are in a similar boat. The support has been invaluable to me personally. So, I feel that if a new thread can continue on from what we had before (with caveats around content, and a buy in from users of the thread to report anything that crosses that line), I think that would be great.

From what I can see, the previous thread has been deleted - is that for good, or just until this is worked out? Personally, I think reinstating that thread and locking it with the reason why would be more useful for users of the forum.

Also, can we start a new thread yet. or is does stuff need to be sorted first?

EI.

Hugo Stiglitz

I've gotten great support and made good friends in the various depression threads in here over the years. It'd be a shame to lose it altogether.

bridgettedon

I think option 2 is a good idea. I actually was surprised that the discussion of self harm and suicide went on so long as I know from therapy that such talk isn't allowed. It's horrible to think anyone is feeling like this and I think a health professional is the person they should be talking to. Especially if it's a quiet day on the thread or 5am in the morning. Will past experiences of self harm be allowed. For example I self harmed last night and feel terrible about it? Or will it be a complete no talking zone about self harm and suicide.

I hope the regular users don't mind me coming in on this discussion.

There is no doubt in my mind that a thread discussing anxiety and depression can be beneficial and I would be disappointed if it closed altogether. But it's previous incarnation was dangerous more times than not I felt.

Tighter moderation is definitely required. Maybe a charter of it's own describing it's purpose and it's limitations. This could also include a list of web resources and support numbers.

Maybe the regular users could come together and decide what it is they want from the thread.

Edit: Ah I'm an eejit. I see at the top of the page there is a sticky titled Web Resources.

Euphoria Intensifies

In what way do you feel the previous thread was more dangerous than not Persepoly? I'm not trying to attack your opinion or anything - I'm generally curious as to what it appeared like from an outside perspective.

I agree with brigettedon that mentions of suicide/SH were allowed to go on when they probably shouldn't have. I know that I occasionally had to take a break as posts were sometimes triggering. That's where we as a community that uses the thread needs to step up and report such posts from now on. I definitely hold my hands up and admit that I didn't use the report function enough, but then again I guess there wasn't strict guidelines.

Euphoria Intensifies

Euphoria Intensifies wrote: »

I agree with brigettedon that mentions of suicide/SH were allowed to go on when they probably shouldn't have. I know that I occasionally had to take a break as posts were sometimes triggering. That's where we as a community that uses the thread needs to step up and report such posts from now on.

Exactly that. Some of the posters were experiencing serious levels of distress. You guys are trying to put one foot in front of another and do your best in your own life. Hell, that's all any of us can do. So an online thread simply doesn't have the expertise to manage suicidal ideation and the use of self- harm. Even if it did have the resources I'm not sure how much good it would be in a format such as this.

The other thing is that it can be very easy to rely on the support of a thread such as this instead of engaging with the mental health services.

Also think of your own boundaries. How it makes you feel to engage with that level of distress? How does it leave you feeling? You mentioned having to take a break because of it's triggering affect. What about a poster who doesn't have that self awareness and before they know it are engaged in PM's with someone who is threatening to kill themselves?

I would worry about something happening. That's all. I know all about dark nights of the soul myself and absolutely support the thread being reinstated but with stricter boundaries and moderation.

Euphoria Intensifies

Deleted User wrote: »

Also think of your own boundaries. How it makes you feel to engage with that level of distress? How does it leave you feeling? You mentioned having to take a break because of it's triggering affect. What about a poster who doesn't have that self awareness and before they know it are engaged in PM's with someone who is threatening to kill themselves?

This is a very good point. I'm definitely very self-aware of what is comfortable/uncomfortable for me and the effects certain things might have - that's a trait not everybody possesses, which sometimes I forget. Maybe a rule similar to that in Personal Issues where posters are discouraged from offering PMs is needed.

Deleted User wrote: »

The other thing is that it can be very easy to rely on the support of a thread such as this instead of engaging with the mental health services.

From my knowledge, pretty much all regular posters are engaging with mental health services, and that is always the first thing we suggest to new posters. But obviously, we don't really know what people do in their own lives.

Juxtapose

I think the depression/anxiety thread was so beneficial to people (myself included), In a country where talking to people about mental health is still so stigmatised and frowned upon.

I actually think it should get its own forum rather than a thread of people just writing. The long term illness has been overloaded with depression/anxiety posts and perhaps it would be easier to moderate in its own forum, notifying users that talk of self harm or taking discussions to pm is not tolerated.

Just a suggestion anyways.

Diamond Doll

I broke the thread! I'm sorry.

Black Swan

Please see (and participate in) the New Long Term Illness Charter discussion thread stickied in this forum.

Taltos

In the past HQ has sought and received advice on how to handle threads on suicide and self harm. Unfortunately in trying to help a distressed poster a few years ago there was major fallout among the volunteer mods as a result - hence that request for advice.

We were told and in other forums it's strictly followed that where mods see posts of that nature they can only do the following...
1. Close the thread
2. Delete the post / content
3. Replace with a redirect to professional resources.

In fact in PI due to the volume we were getting at one point a mod there created a separate thread for Distressed Posters that just listed out some of the better known support groups. I know that this type of approach can seem harsh and uncaring, especially when someone is at their lowest point and just needs someone to hear them, but we have to take the advice of the professional groups that HQ and Dav met with on board in an effort not only to protect those posters but also the mod team and other vulnerable posters who may be at a personal tipping point where such a post could have more of an impact than the original poster imagined...

In terms of the suggestion above - I too like 2, but guess it's for you all to decide here.
I know some of you have called for tighter moderation. Can I counter that with the following?
1. Report such posts
2. Don't reply or quote them
3. Think twice before posting anything of that nature, instead use the supplied resource group to get the best help that's out there.

The mods are volunteers after all, and all of us were contributing posters at one point so realistically we are no more qualified than the rest of you and really do rely on our poster community more than you all can really imagine. Not kidding...

Myrddin

Hey all, just some clarifications:

trixychic wrote: »

So is this replacing the anxiety/depression discussion thread??? Sorry I'm a bit dopey.

No, this discussion thread is to allow us to flesh this out a bit, so that if indeed a new depression/anxiety thread is created, we're all in agreement on how it should run and be managed etc. If we can eliminate the problems of the original thread, and replace them with a clear set of procedures for both mods and users alike (as in what to do if suicidal/self harm posting is spotted), then we're flying

bridgettedon wrote: »

Will past experiences of self harm be allowed. For example I self harmed last night and feel terrible about it? Or will it be a complete no talking zone about self harm and suicide.

Personally, and in my own opinion, I would say no. I think the moment the discussion crosses into self harm (or indeed suicide), our duty of care to you becomes paramount. Indeed, in your example it's merely a regret about self harming, and might seem innocuous enough - but it is the type of behaviour that only a specialist can help with; counsel or support from people on the internet in all likelihood isn't going to get down to the root of the matter, and the person will in all likelihood try that behaviour again, with potentially more severe outcomes - and as Persepoly very rightly points out above, this thread can easily act as a pseudo-support, and as such, acting as a barrier for people who self harm actually engaging with a specialist instead.

The thread too could very easily slip back into old habits, if we allow casual mention of self harm and suicide. I personally feel that if mods or users alike, spot people posting along those lines, then the absolute best thing to do for that person is to report their post - that way, a mod can edit it out, and direct the poster to people who truly can help, far, far better than we can here with our keyboards and screens. I'm not disavowing that notion that the previous thread was of huge benefit to people, that much is very evident, but when it comes to suicide, self harm, and destructive behaviour, we need to take a very different approach.

Diamond Doll wrote: »

I broke the thread! I'm sorry.

Not at all, don't feel sorry. The truth is, this has been an ongoing problem within the thread...it's not down to one or two posters. You have nothing to be sorry about at all. It's very brave for a person to expose difficulties they are facing on a forum like this, and we empathise with, and understand, those difficulties (some of us personally, others see them in loved ones, as per the OP). This is just us tightening up in an area that we really need to, and if you hadn't posted at all DD, this change was going to happen today anyway. So don't feel sorry, it's all good

On another note, I/d like to thank those of you who have posted so far. I can in here this morning expecting to find anger and frustration being directed at us over the above...but to find understanding, constructive feedback, and a sense of unified thinking/solidarity here instead, has given me confidence that between us all we can sort this out, and get a new thread going. It reflects very well on you all, so thank you for that

Taltos

Taltos wrote: »

In terms of the suggestion above - I too like 2, but guess it's for you all to decide here.
I know some of you have called for tighter moderation. Can I counter that with the following?
1. Report such posts
2. Don't reply or quote them
3. Think twice before posting anything of that nature, instead use the supplied resource group to get the best help that's out there.

The mods are volunteers after all, and all of us were contributing posters at one point so realistically we are no more qualified than the rest of you and really do rely on our poster community more than you all can really imagine. Not kidding...

So you agree that the second option is the best. This means no mention of suicide and self harm, yet you don't believe tighter moderation is required? Yes you are volunteers but if the level of moderation which exists over on PI is possible then I can't see why not for a thread dealing with anxiety and depression.

Tell me how

I must admit, I feel somewhat confused about the comment in the OP Option 1 that "Depression must be de-stigmatised" and then in option 2 "we draw the line at suicide, self harm, and any other aspects where people are potentially in danger". These thoughts and actions are unfortunately a very real and dominant part of depression.

As other posters here, I'm a long term reader of the thread and an occasional poster and I do agree that some posts occasionally make for uncomfortable reading but I think that is part of the reality of the illness. I also agree with previous posters here that a lot of the users of the thread have already utilised a large proportion of the available services that are out there and quite often arrive here at the end of their tether. Sometimes you do just want to be able to say the worst of what is on your mind without someone saying "Don't say that. You will get better, all you have to do is A, B, C" Most of us have heard of and tried A, B and C (and the rest).

I came to the thread first one night when I was in a very dark place and had my phone in my hand to ring online support again but in that moment felt "there's no point, I know what they are going to say". I'd already travelled a very long path of professionals, inpatient treatment, meds, one to one, group therapy and so on. It's a very lonely place when you feel that there is "truly" no place left to turn. To read other people who were experiencing the same thoughts but at a point in their cycle where they were able to say they understood and that it was ok and that it would lessen was very comforting. It didn't fix everything or send me away happy but it gave me a refuge which was badly needed and hugely appreciated. When I hear of someone talking about depression and they say "you just need to talk to someone" I want to scream and tell them they "really" don't understand.

Most people appreciate the work in modding a public forum and any time I think of the mods I do think of the difficulty that that role must present on a thread such as this. I completely agree that posters cannot post any comments and just expect that they are Ok. There must be a degree of personal responsibility but again, I appreciate that the ability to uphold this responsibility is diminished when in your darkest state. I also could understand that if someone posts something very dark and then have their post removed or their access prohibited it may feel like they have been further rejected.

Is it an option to have a forum/thread where posters must be granted access to post after they have accepted the forum charter or have PM'd a mod to ask for access to be granted? I appreciate that that may not be feasible on the site or unfair to put that responsibility on the mods in the first place.

Possible elements to charter governing such a thread;

• Outlines the negative influences that overly dark posts (or a series of negative posts) can have on other users is necessary.
• Explain that if someone feels they should start their post with a warning as to the upcoming content then that is a post which should not be made.
• Encourage users to be proactive in flagging posts which they feel cross a line not so as to castigate the poster but so as to help others who may be affected by reading it (I think that difference is key).
• Encourage people to mention positive turns in their mood/illness as well as negative? We always focus on the negative but a positive comment as to how one is experiencing an upswing may help others also.
• List a default message which would be sent to someone if they have been deemed to be posting too negatively so that it wouldn't feel like a personal attack should they receive it. This message could list the supports available and a default explanation for the post been removed or access to the thread being removed should that have been warranted.
  
  
• Is it possible (maybe it already exists) that if posts are reported that they are hidden from other readers until viewed by a mod? If so, it's not an outright rejection but a considered response to the poster. If they see that their post has been removed, maybe it would give them an opportunity to reflect on what they had said before posting again.

I was actively following the last 2 threads (this and another one) which were closed down after particularly dark posts and while I can understand the resistance to allowing such posts to be made, I feel to remove/close the threads completely may have affected more people (though I appreciate maybe not as seriously) than if they had remained.

Finally, thanks to Boards and the mods for facilitating such threads to this point. I've searched a lot of corners of the internet for such support and it has helped me greatly since I found it here. I hope, like everyone else, that the day will come when I don't need but I hope the it is always here in some guise for those that do.

Hugo Stiglitz

Taltos wrote: »

I know some of you have called for tighter moderation. Can I counter that with the following?
1. Report such posts
2. Don't reply or quote them
3. Think twice before posting anything of that nature, instead use the supplied resource group to get the best help that's out there.

The mods are volunteers after all, and all of us were contributing posters at one point so realistically we are no more qualified than the rest of you and really do rely on our poster community more than you all can really imagine. Not kidding...

I highlighted a bit in bold in the quoted reply above. The danger I feel with that tactic is that the distressed person would feel ignore and not cared about, and this could very well push them from venting to actually making a suicide attempt.

Lucyfur

Can something like turn2me be brought back?

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

I must admit, I feel somewhat confused about the comment in the OP Option 1 that "Depression must be de-stigmatised" and then in option 2 "we draw the line at suicide, self harm, and any other aspects where people are potentially in danger". These thoughts and actions are unfortunately a very real and dominant part of depression.

Most people appreciate the work in modding a public forum and any time I think of the mods I do think of the difficulty that that role must present on a thread such as this. I completely agree that posters cannot post any comments and just expect that they are Ok. There must be a degree of personal responsibility but again, I appreciate that the ability to uphold this responsibility is diminished when in your darkest state. I also could understand that if someone posts something very dark and then have their post removed or their access prohibited it may feel like they have been further rejected

You do make some good points however I really don't think that boards drawing the line at posts of a distressing nature means they do not care about the stigmatisation of mental illness.

Of course the regular posters will want to continue in the same vein as before. It can be difficult to remain objective on a situation when you are in the middle of it. My professional opinion is that consistent posting of suicidal ideation, threats of suicide, thoughts of and descriptions of self harm is damaging to the wider community of the thread.

So while you may feel you are getting support from posting about such issues it will not be the case for all. It also puts other poster's in a precarious position. They are trying to deal with their own lives. The last thing they need is the worry for someone who posted on a thread that they wanted to end their lives. Or the danger of responding with the wrong piece of advice.

It can be cathartic to vent but your words have far more power than you realise.

Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz wrote: »

I highlighted a bit in bold in the quoted reply above. The danger I feel with that tactic is that the distressed person would feel ignore and not cared about, and this could very well push them from venting to actually making a suicide attempt.

This may seem contradictory to me believing that boards has a duty of care to it's posters. But it is not a replacement for mental health services. It can not second guess a poster's intentions or whether a certain action will push them over the edge or not.

I realise I may becoming across as harsh. It can be easier to vent in a thread than sit down and talk face to face. Or adapt lifestyle changes or commit to once a week therapy sessions for a lengthy period of time. The thread is useful but should not be a replacement for real work on yourself. And as I'm sure you are already aware the work that's involved in getting to a place of some kind of functioning stability is a damn hard and long road.

Tell me how

Deleted User wrote: »

You do make some good points however I really don't think that boards drawing the line at posts of a distressing nature means they do not care about the stigmatisation of mental illness.

Of course the regular posters will want to continue in the same vein as before. It can be difficult to remain objective on a situation when you are in the middle of it. My professional opinion is that consistent posting of suicidal ideation, threats of suicide, thoughts of and descriptions of self harm is damaging to the wider community of the thread.

So while you may feel you are getting support from posting about such issues it will not be the case for all. It also puts other poster's in a precarious position. They are trying to deal with their own lives. The last thing they need is the worry for someone who posted on a thread that they wanted to end their lives. Or the danger of responding with the wrong piece of advice.

It can be cathartic to vent but your words have far more power than you realise.

I agree. That is why I suggested inclusions in the charter to mean that circumstances of such consistent posting would not happen.

Myrddin

Deleted User wrote: »

So you agree that the second option is the best. This means no mention of suicide and self harm, yet you don't believe tighter moderation is required? Yes you are volunteers but if the level of moderation which exists over on PI is possible then I can't see why not for a thread dealing with anxiety and depression.

I think what Taltos meant, is that tighter moderation can only really work where users are actively reporting posts in conjunction. Otherwise, to 'tighten up', mods would have to read every single post on every single thread etc etc

TherapyBoy

Deleted User wrote: »

It can be cathartic to vent..

I believe that venting in circumstances like this can be helpful, even if there's nobody reading what you have written.
Would a 'venting' thread to run alongside the new & improved anxiety/depression thread be useful to people, even if the posts in the thread weren't visible afterwards? Maybe set it up to leave the posts unapproved just as a place to get it off your chest?

Myrddin

Myrddin wrote: »

I think what Taltos meant, is that tighter moderation can only really work where users are actively reporting posts in conjunction. Otherwise, to 'tighten up', mods would have to read every single post on every single thread etc etc

Ah yes I do agree with that alright.

Myrddin

Tell me how wrote: »

I must admit, I feel somewhat confused about the comment in the OP Option 1 that "Depression must be de-stigmatised" and then in option 2 "we draw the line at suicide, self harm, and any other aspects where people are potentially in danger". These thoughts and actions are unfortunately a very real and dominant part of depression.

De-stigmatisation is definitely something depression could do with in Ireland, and if we (Boards), can in any way assist with that, we can and will. However, that cannot get in the way of our duty of care to any posters here. BY providing a platform for discussion, there are certain responsibilities that go with that, and we're drawing the line at self harm and suicide. It is acknowledged in the OP that these can sometimes be associated with depression, but again, our duty here is not to act as a replacement for any professional support. They might seem conflicting ideals, but we can assist where possible in de-stigmatising depression, we can't lead the charge though.

As other posters here, I'm a long term reader of the thread and an occasional poster and I do agree that some posts occasionally make for uncomfortable reading but I think that is part of the reality of the illness. I also agree with previous posters here that a lot of the users of the thread have already utilised a large proportion of the available services that are out there and quite often arrive here at the end of their tether. Sometimes you do just want to be able to say the worst of what is on your mind without someone saying "Don't say that. You will get better, all you have to do is A, B, C" Most of us have heard of and tried A, B and C (and the rest).

Indeed, and one concern with this was we didn't want to be seen as 'washing our hands' of the subject. It goes back to context though, and given there is none on the internet, we have no way of knowing just how vulnerable a person really is; are they venting, are they frustrated, are they just seeking to release pent up emotion, or are indeed are they actually suicidal? In the absence of personal intimate knowledge of each other, and in the absence of context, it's simple better for everyone involved if our approach towards self harm and suicide is redirection to professional services. If the services aren't working for whatever reason, we really cannot replace them.

I came to the thread first one night when I was in a very dark place and had my phone in my hand to ring online support again but in that moment felt "there's no point, I know what they are going to say". I'd already travelled a very long path of professionals, inpatient treatment, meds, one to one, group therapy and so on. It's a very lonely place when you feel that there is "truly" no place left to turn. To read other people who were experiencing the same thoughts but at a point in their cycle where they were able to say they understood and that it was ok and that it would lessen was very comforting. It didn't fix everything or send me away happy but it gave me a refuge which was badly needed and hugely appreciated. When I hear of someone talking about depression and they say "you just need to talk to someone" I want to scream and tell them they "really" don't understand.

I see, and it's great that we were of any help in such instance. Once again, I hope this 'talk to the professionals' approach from us is only seen as us acknowledging that we're not really equipped to help in these circumstances. For every person like yourself that got comfort from the thread, there may be five more with which the thread triggered destructive behaviour, and from these we don't hear from. As the OP points out towards the end of the post, we've an obligation to the minority, as well as the majority. But look, perhaps in the new charter thread, we can strike some form of balance.

Most people appreciate the work in modding a public forum and any time I think of the mods I do think of the difficulty that that role must present on a thread such as this. I completely agree that posters cannot post any comments and just expect that they are Ok. There must be a degree of personal responsibility but again, I appreciate that the ability to uphold this responsibility is diminished when in your darkest state. I also could understand that if someone posts something very dark and then have their post removed or their access prohibited it may feel like they have been further rejected.

Indeed, and that is a concern. Rather than a cold, and apparent heartless removal of posts...a more compassionate, and informative post could act as a replacement for the post that gets removed (as in, take its place). That way, the user will see their message has been seen, read, and understood...and that we take these things so seriously, that we rather not try to handle them in an anonymous fashion over the internet, and that we'd like to help that person accessing services/professionals who truly can help.

Is it an option to have a forum/thread where posters must be granted access to post after they have accepted the forum charter or have PM'd a mod to ask for access to be granted? I appreciate that that may not be feasible on the site or unfair to put that responsibility on the mods in the first place.

Possible elements to charter governing such a thread

As in a private forum? I'm afraid not...at the very least, we'd be hiding any new depression subjects away from the public, which doesn't serve to change attitudes. At worst, we're placing a rather large responsibility on the shoulders of whoever would mod such a forum. In short, suicide/self harm are subjects we don't have the ability to handle in the way they should be handled, and it's unlikely we ever will...whether that's privately or publicly.

Is it possible (maybe it already exists) that if posts are reported that they are hidden from other readers until viewed by a mod? If so, it's not an outright rejection but a considered response to the poster. If they see that their post has been removed, maybe it would give them an opportunity to reflect on what they had said before posting again.

There's no such feature I'm afraid. A reported post remains visible until actioned by a mod. Can you imagine, outside of this forum, the chaos caused if users could in essence force other users posts to be temp-deleted?

Tell me how

Myrddin wrote: »

Indeed, and one concern with this was we didn't want to be seen as 'washing our hands' of the subject. It goes back to context though, and given there is none on the internet, we have no way of knowing just how vulnerable a person really is; are they venting, are they frustrated, are they just seeking to release pent up emotion, or are indeed are they actually suicidal? In the absence of personal intimate knowledge of each other, and in the absence of context, it's simple better for everyone involved if our approach towards self harm and suicide is redirection to professional services. If the services aren't working for whatever reason, we really cannot replace them.

I would suggest that there can be some context on a forum where posters prior contributions can be observed but I do see that that isn't always readily available to someone who is reading one specific post in isolation.

I will be interested to see what the final approach ends up being. If any post which mentions having had current or previous thoughts of harm/suicide leads to it being removed immediately or the poster banned then I think it may significantly change the reach/benefit of the site to a large number of the users.

Myrddin wrote: »

I see, and it's great that we were of any help in such instance. Once again, I hope this 'talk to the professionals' approach from us is only seen as us acknowledging that we're not really equipped to help in these circumstances. For every person like yourself that got comfort from the thread, there may be five more with which the thread triggered destructive behaviour, and from these we don't hear from. As the OP points out towards the end of the post, we've an obligation to the minority, as well as the majority. But look, perhaps in the new charter thread, we can strike some form of balance.

Is there evidence or indication from professionals that this is a likely pattern. I again appreciate that negatives vibes may reach more than positive ones but if we were to stifle all comments at the risk of affecting those that we cannot see or hear from then there really will be no point to the thread. I know Boards has engaged with support groups to get direction on this so I presume that this is where such views are coming from but I am surprised as to it's weighting.

Myrddin wrote: »

There's no such feature I'm afraid. A reported post remains visible until actioned by a mod. Can you imagine, outside of this forum, the chaos caused if users could in essence force other users posts to be temp-deleted?

Absolutely. It would be a disaster for users and mods on the wider site. If it was a separate button on such a thread as this which was titled "flag for help" for instance it may be suitable and acceptable but I again appreciate current site design or reasonable responsibilities for mods may not allow for it.

Hugo Stiglitz

Deleted User wrote: »

This may seem contradictory to me believing that boards has a duty of care to it's posters. But it is not a replacement for mental health services. It can not second guess a poster's intentions or whether a certain action will push them over the edge or not.

I realise I may becoming across as harsh. It can be easier to vent in a thread than sit down and talk face to face. Or adapt lifestyle changes or commit to once a week therapy sessions for a lengthy period of time. The thread is useful but should not be a replacement for real work on yourself. And as I'm sure you are already aware the work that's involved in getting to a place of some kind of functioning stability is a damn hard and long road.

I never said that Boards did or that people should be using the thread as a replacement for mental health services.

Tell me how

Deleted User wrote: »

This may seem contradictory to me believing that boards has a duty of care to it's posters. But it is not a replacement for mental health services. It can not second guess a poster's intentions or whether a certain action will push them over the edge or not.

I realise I may becoming across as harsh. It can be easier to vent in a thread than sit down and talk face to face. Or adapt lifestyle changes or commit to once a week therapy sessions for a lengthy period of time. The thread is useful but should not be a replacement for real work on yourself. And as I'm sure you are already aware the work that's involved in getting to a place of some kind of functioning stability is a damn hard and long road.

In my experience. 99% of posters on the A&D thread are in the early stages of dealing with depression/anxiety and are looking for some guidance on treatment types or are long term users of various treatments who remain ill and frustrated. I have very very rarely seen specific questions being asked as to what direction someone should take and have never seen those questions remain once highlighted for mods attention. I have numerous times seen regular contributors point out to new posters that it is against the charter to seek such advice.
I have never seen someone seek out constant support over several days/weeks when they haven't already been availing of professional services that have been available to them.

Also, it is worth mentioning that for some, treatment on the public sector schemes may be prolonged with large gaps between visits and often each visit with different representatives.
For someone who is lucky enough to have funds to avail of private treatment this is a very scary thought and if I was in that position then a forum where I could receive meaningful empathy (not sympathy or instruction) would be even more beneficial than I already find the thread without it being a specific source of care.

Myrddin

Tell me how wrote: »

I will be interested to see what the final approach ends up being. If any post which mentions having had current or previous thoughts of harm/suicide leads to it being removed immediately or the poster banned then I think it may significantly change the reach/benefit of the site to a large number of the users.

I don't think there's talk of banning vulnerable people over a misunderstanding of the rules, that would seem a bit much. The idea at this time, is to redirect them. Currently, I'm unsure how to reconcile when people discuss their past feelings of suicide or self harm, but between us, I'm sure we'll settle on a nice approach. We've a ton of great contributors and mods alike here, so pulling together like we are now, should see us take the approach that best fits the 'problem'.

Is there evidence or indication from professionals that this is a likely pattern. I again appreciate that negatives vibes may reach more than positive ones but if we were to stifle all comments at the risk of affecting those that we cannot see or hear from then there really will be no point to the thread. I know Boards has engaged with support groups to get direction on this so I presume that this is where such views are coming from but I am surprised as to it's weighting.

No evidence that I'm aware of, and indeed, it was a figure I plucked out of the air - five more, ten more, heck, even if it was one more, the point remains - these are people we don't hear from, and our words could well be acting as a trigger for many such people. Where there's any doubt, we can and will take a cautious approach - especially where people's safety is the concern.

Absolutely. It would be a disaster for users and mods on the wider site. If it was a separate button on such a thread as this which was titled "flag for help" for instance it may be suitable and acceptable but I again appreciate current site design or reasonable responsibilities for mods may not allow for it.

I'm afraid not, though it is a good idea. It'd require a large investment of dev time, one we simply cannot afford

Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz wrote: »

I never said that Boards did or that people should be using the thread as a replacement for mental health services.

You did voice your concern regarding some users being pushed to act in a destructive manner if what the post is deleted. Boards isn't a mental health service. It cannot be held responsible for what poster's do.

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

Also, it is worth mentioning that for some, treatment on the public sector schemes may be prolonged with large gaps between visits and often each visit with different representatives.
For someone who is lucky enough to have funds to avail of private treatment this is a very scary thought and if I was in that position then a forum where I could receive meaningful empathy (not sympathy or instruction) would be even more beneficial than I already find the thread without it being a specific source of care.

Therapy is available in some parts of the country for as little as 20e an hour. This is a fact.

Hugo Stiglitz

Deleted User wrote: »

You did voice your concern regarding some users being pushed to act in a destructive manner if what the post is deleted. Boards isn't a mental health service. It cannot be held responsible for what poster's do.

I highlighted a specific portion of a reply mentioning not replying to a poster. That's all I did. I am NOT saying that I'm ok with suicide or self-harm posts. Furthermore, you mentioned Boards having a duty of care to posters and replacing seeking help from mental health services. I never even mentioned anything close to either of those.

trixychic

I do agree that may be some changes need to happen but I really really hope the thread continues. I like having other ppl to talk to who go through or have gone through the same as I have.

Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz wrote: »

I highlighted a specific portion of a reply mentioning not replying to a poster. That's all I did. I am NOT saying that I'm ok with suicide or self-harm posts. Furthermore, you mentioned Boards having a duty of care to posters and replacing seeking help from mental health services. I never even mentioned anything close to either of those. I can't help but feel that you're putting words in my mouth, and I don't like that.

It was never my intention to make you feel that way Hugo. In response to your opinion regarding not replying to a poster I just wanted to give you my stance on how I see things.

I apologise if I offended you.

Hugo Stiglitz

Deleted User wrote: »

It was never my intention to make you feel that way Hugo. In response to your opinion regarding not replying to a poster I just wanted to give you my stance on how I see things.

I apologise if I offended you.

No need to apologise, P. I should apologise to you. This thread is important to me is all, I got a little hot headed and read into things too much there. Sorry.

Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz wrote: »

No need to apologise, P. I should apologise to you. This thread is important to me is all, I got a little hot headed and read into things too much there. Sorry.

We can hug it out

I do think the thread should remain. People's mental health is something I'm passionate about. If this thread can give even a little solace from the darkness then I am all for that. Once upon a time I felt like I had nowhere to turn.

It is just some elements that worry me. Opening and closing new accounts and right beforehand expressing a wish to die is very distressing to read. I'm a steely old bird and even I felt the impact of it.

Gremlinertia

So, more mods needed as it's very difficult for one mod to always be here especially as it's a volunteer job. Perhaps a sticky with a very mini charter at the top of each page as a reminder for a while - like the DRP forum.

Perhaps a post limit before being allowed to post on sensitive threads like this?. I do know that seems harsh but it can be very hard to read something from an account that's closed as soon as it's posted.. I know that person hurts too but i always end up worrying about people who lurk here getting afraid to post, much like i was at the start. For the first few years of my membership here i lurked and then eventually felt brave enough to post and have made great friends. I strongly believe there's a place for the thread, it just needs some tweaks and a little more people power, had no idea it was down to one mod.

Myrddin

Gremlinertia wrote: »

I strongly believe there's a place for the thread, it just needs some tweaks and a little more people power, had no idea it was down to one mod.

My thoughts exactly. We are actively looking at the mod situation

whatismyname

Not sure if the depression / anxiety thread has been deleted altogether, as opposed to just closed (think it's been deleted?), but just wanted to say if it still exists, a mod posting in the thread with information about this thread / its closure might be a good idea, so those who follow the thread get a notification and know about this?

I had noticed that I'd not got any notification about new posts to the thread, which I thought was odd, but wouldn't be in the LTI forum generally to have spotted this, just happened to notice this on the front page, and so found out about this update...

Hope that makes sense. Just that I think it's an important thread, and although it's good that there's this discussion about changes to it, unless I'm missing something, it is not necessarily easy for those who posted on / followed the thread to know about this discussion.

Hugo Stiglitz

Deleted User wrote: »

Therapy is available in some parts of the country for as little as 20e an hour. This is a fact.

Slightly off-topic, P. Who does this? Like would there be people that are well known?

Thanks x

Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz wrote: »

Slightly off-topic, P. Who does this? Like would there be people that are well known?

Thanks x

I won't mention names on the thread but a quick google will bring up a number of low cost centres. I know there are some in Dublin, Cork and Limerick. Also many psychotherapists in private practice will have a sliding scale. They will negotiate their fee depending upon the individual's circumstances. Now not all but many do.

Hugo Stiglitz

Deleted User wrote: »

I won't mention names on the thread but a quick google will bring up a number of low cost centres. I know there are some in Dublin, Cork and Limerick. Also many psychotherapists in private practice will have a sliding scale. They will negotiate their fee depending upon the individual's circumstances. Now not all but many do.

That's understandable, P. Thanks for replying.

Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz wrote: »

That's understandable, P. Thanks for replying.

You are welcome Mr Stiglitz

Myrddin

So this was mooted as a possible 'mod intervention' type post in the other thread (Persepoly & Penny's work...I've added in a tiny piece about protecting other people reading the thread too). What do people think about it?

Hi x
It is obvious from your post that you are in distress. I can imagine this is a very difficult time for you. If you would take a look at our charter we have stated that any mention of intending to commit suicide or engage in self harm is not allowed. This isn't to upset anyone, it's to protect you, and perhaps other vulnerable people who might be reading the thread.

I do appreciate the position you are in at this time however for the safety of you and our other users I must ask you to refrain from posting about the above issues. In the sticky at the top of the page you will find a number of supports and services which are in a better position to help you than we are. This list includes turn2me.org and Pieta House. Please try to understand our position here, and our duty of care to you and everyone else, it is your safety that matters the most.

Best of luck to you x

Gremlinertia

May I suggest adding doctor/out of hours service or local hospital as options, i say this because it didn't occur to me once or twice back in the day and could be incorporated into the message easily i think without sounding condescending

Myrddin

Gremlinertia wrote: »

May I suggest adding doctor/out of hours service or local hospital as options, i say this because it didn't occur to me once or twice back in the day and could be incorporated into the message easily i think without sounding condescending

As in add that to the sticky that will list services, or add that into the above intervention post?

Gremlinertia

The intervention post as it's locality dependant whereas the sticky is named services though it could be repeated there i guess.

Myrddin

Revision

Hi x
It is obvious from your post that you are in distress. I can imagine this is a very difficult time for you. If you would take a look at our charter we have stated that any mention of intending to commit suicide or engage in self harm is not allowed. This isn't to upset anyone, it's to protect you, and perhaps other vulnerable people who might be reading the thread.

I do appreciate the position you are in at this time however for the safety of you and our other users I must ask you to refrain from posting about the above issues. Please consider your GP/out of hours service or local hospital if you feel in crisis. Also in the sticky at the top of the page you will find a number of supports and services which are in a better position to help you than we are. This list includes turn2me.org and Pieta House. Please try to understand our position here, and our duty of care to you and everyone else, it is your safety that matters the most.

Best of luck to you x

TherapyBoy

Myrddin wrote: »

In this sticky at the top of the page..

Minor change suggested to "this sticky" with a link to the sticky in question.

(I linked to the 'post your web resources' sticky but I can't find anything specific to mental health or mentioning Pieta House in the stickies, am I missing something?)

Myrddin

TherapyBoy wrote: »

Minor change suggested to "this sticky" with a link to the sticky in question.

(I linked to the 'post your web resources' sticky but I can't find anything specific to mental health or mentioning Pieta House in the stickies, am I missing something?)

As in adding hyperlink to "this sticky", oh yeah, definitely. Once we have one we will link to it from there

mickstupp

If someone signed off a message to me with 'Best of luck to you', I'd personally be really insulted. It's like saying, we know you need help, but feck off.

Again though... that's just me.