We are going back to the Moon Thread

Ren2k7

Wibbs wrote: »

I'm getting the impression it's more about your personal politics than what is going on. I suppose the term "Chicoms" should have flagged that out of the gate. Sheesh, it's bad enough on Boards with the recent general election and now it's spilling over even here. Oh and by the by, it was the "commies" who got into space first with men(and women) and machines and were well ahead for quite a time, but it would take someone a bit daft to suggest that communism was working at the time.

Well spaceflight and economics are intimately tied together. You're invariably going to have a discussion on the economic and business cases for space travel sooner or later.

Wibbs wrote: »

With huge amounts of investment by government money. See below. Many if not most of the historical innovations in aircraft that led to jet airliners were funded by government monies, specifically the military. QV the Jet engine for a start. Again with a lot of public money going on how things are going currently(Branson appears to be one of the few fully privately funded?).

Hold on, nobody is arguing that prior government funding of space travel was a bad thing. Pretty much everything starts off with government support before the private sector steps in, that's the whole point. The state helps establish an industry but it cannot stay tied to the state forever, sooner or later you're going to have to let the private sector take over like we've seen with commercial aviation. Unless you believe government owned airliners are still the way to go?

Wibbs wrote: »

Musk states a lot of things and fans lap it up, but in reality few enough come down the pike and if and when they do pretty much always way behind schedule. Showboating is his thing and fair enough, as it is getting results, but it's best to take his public statements with a pinch of salt until the actual product gets rolled out.

Have an oul read of this. From said LA times article;

Tesla Motors Inc., SolarCity Corp. and Space Exploration Technologies Corp., known as SpaceX, together have benefited from an estimated $4.9 billion in government support, according to data compiled by The Times. The figure underscores a common theme running through his emerging empire: a public-private financing model underpinning long-shot start-ups.

"He definitely goes where there is government money," said Dan Dolev, an analyst at Jefferies Equity Research. "That's a great strategy, but the government will cut you off one day."

Without public funding and incentives Musk and his companies quite simply wouldn't exist, or if they did, they wouldn't be where they are today. And as I said that's fine, opening up space via different approaches is the best way forward but until the costs drop dramatically and/or real profits are to be made out there it'll need to be a two tiered approach for the most part.

Musk is a genius who's done more for spaceflight than the efforts of government space agencies. Whether you like it or not private spaceflight is here and doing a far better job of opening up outer space to the masses than NASA, ESA or Roscosmos ever could.

BTW, those aren't subsidies SpaceX gets, those are competitive contracts that Musk has with NASA and other government agencies. To SpaceX they're just another client. SpaceX provides a launching capability and in return gets paid for it. No different to a commercial airliner that flies government employees from one country to another as part of official state business. Not subsidisation but competitive tendering. There's a difference.

Ren2k7

_Tombstone_ wrote: »

From out of left field - S Korea to land Rover on Moon by 2020 in conjuction with NASA to look for rare Minerals.

They've upped their Space Stuff Budget by 20% this year to $603 Million despite deteriorating economic conditions.

To promote aerospace companies’ competitiveness, the government plans to give a bigger role for local research institutes and small and mid-sized enterprises by reorganizing the state-led satellite development plans. A total of $230 Million will also be injected to provide marketing and technology support for companies in the sector.

http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20160228000365

Don't know if this is a response to N Korea though...maybe.

Probably not. South Korea has a well established and advanced technology sector that would have had such missions planned years in advance. For a country of South Korea's stature it is only natural they'd seek to develop their space faring capabilities, like neighbouring Japan.

_Tombstone_ wrote: »

You need to read up on what they're at...even post 1 would do.

I have, they're about 20 years behind the US at a minimum plus the CPC leadership seem to show more interest in anti-sat capabilities than human spaceflight.

_Tombstone_

_Tombstone_ wrote: »

The Russians are doing the same work...We really need to set up a Global Space Agency.

They've just revealed plans for their Cosmonaut Moon Lander, that's a Chinese, US and Russian one on the go, not sure what India is at yet.

Chinese, US, Russian, S Korea AND now an Indian Moon Rover

Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) chairman A S Kiran Kumar on Sunday signaled country's readiness for Chandrayaan II mission, it consists of an Orbiter, Lander and Rover configuration.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/mangaluru/ISRO-chief-signals-Indias-readiness-for-Chandrayaan-II-mission/articleshow/51178528.cms

_Tombstone_ wrote: »

China is storming along at the min, 20 Launches planned for this year, new Original Rockets coming - the Long March 5 and 7 (7 is equivalent to Ariane 5/Dragon/Progress, March 5 is more powerful), they're sending up the first Module/Lab of their Tiangong Space Station early this year and 3 Taikonauts to Dock with it later in the year aswell. The Core Module is due to go up in 2018 with the March 5 and the whole thing due to go live in 2022 (ish). Their is a Module up there since 2011 that's due to be deorbit at some stage.

China to launch second space lab

Ren2k7

I prefer to see competition between countries, friendly competition of course. The 60's yielded some fantastic results precisely because of the space race between the US and Russia. That competitive spirit disappeared by the 70's with détente and Apollo-Soyuz. Cooperation became the new buzzword which has seen mankind languish in LEO ever since with the ISS, a trillion dollar piece of hardware of little benefit. ESA is calling for a new moon base to replace ISS post 2020's but TBH a moon base should have come after Apollo, not the Shuttle and ISS.

If you look at the extraordinary advancements being achieved now it's thanks to a newly emerged sense of competition taking place among New Space firms. Reusable rockets, space tourism, asteroid mining, private space hotels, all thanks to real world competition among the private sector that's really kicked off in the last 10-15 years. Competition is good.

Wibbs

Ren2k7 wrote: »

Hold on, nobody is arguing that prior government funding of space travel was a bad thing. Pretty much everything starts off with government support before the private sector steps in, that's the whole point. The state helps establish an industry but it cannot stay tied to the state forever, sooner or later you're going to have to let the private sector take over like we've seen with commercial aviation. Unless you believe government owned airliners are still the way to go?

Dunno what your thing with government airliners is coming from, the flight industry is a very different animal to the spaceflight industry and was from the get go. The early stuff was almost all private for a start. With spaceflight the scales and costs were and currently still are almost impossible without state aid. Indeed the costs are what have forced entities like NASA on it's ever more limited budget to look to private enterprise more, though as I pointed out from early on it was almost exclusively private contractors that made NASA fly. The Saturn V was built by Boeing, Douglas and North American Aviation, the LEM by Grumman, the CM by North American again, computer systems by IBM among others, hell, the EVA suits were made by a sub company of Playtex the bra people. The main difference with the process today is it's far less centralised and the subcontractors are left to their own devices much more.

Musk is a genius who's done more for spaceflight than the efforts of government space agencies.

Oh oh fan level 8 detected. Just look at that sentence and think about and research it and then try to see that its more fan love than reality. Theres a huge level of both nerd love and government bad/business good love for Musk and even though I'm a fully paid up member of the nerd club myself I don't get it. He's not some real life Tony Stark or anything like it. He's not invented the wheel. He is very good at promotion and catchy pronouncements and yes he has gotten results and fair play to him(and more, his team of young talented engineers), but those results lag quite a bit behind his stated claims and timelines

Whether you like it or not private spaceflight is here and doing a far better job of opening up outer space to the masses than NASA, ESA or Roscosmos ever could.

Why wouldn't I "like it"? Odd. I'm all for whatever gets us back into space and to the moon and beyond and I'd prefer more private money getting us there, but I'm also realistic about it. As for doing a far better job currently? How many private citizens has commercial space launched into orbit? How many have the Russians? If anything I reckon the Russians have missed a trick there. OK they've got engine deals going on and have flown a couple of rich folks into space and they're currently the only game in town outside of the Chinese for getting people into orbit, but considering their huge experience they could be an extremely vital commercial force that could really shake things up. They seem a bit all over the place though.

BTW, those aren't subsidies SpaceX gets, those are competitive contracts that Musk has with NASA and other government agencies.

Nope, all of Musk's companies have recieved and are in receipt of government subsidies and loans and as I said wouldn't be around in the form they are without them. And as I also said that's fine, he goes where the money is and government money in renewables and spaceflight is a big resource. He'd be daft not to take advantage of it and he's not daft.

TL;DR? SpaceX are doing some cool stuff, but apply a more measured eye to the Musk promotionals.

a moon base should have come after Apollo, not the Shuttle and ISS.

100% agree. The Shuttle, though a fantastic piece of engineering, albeit hampered by budget cuts, put manned spaceflight back decades. That's with the benefit of hindsight mind you, at the time it seemed like a good idea. Apollo was extremely wasteful, extremely expensive and not even close to sustainable. It was the most expedient way to beat the Soviets to the moon, but beyond that… The "reusable" Shuttle seemed to be the future. The very idea of reusable was novel for the time.

Reusable rockets, space tourism, asteroid mining, private space hotels, all thanks to real world competition among the private sector that's really kicked off in the last 10-15 years.

Don't forget that these were being talked about back in the 60's and 70's. Look at the flic 2001 a Space Odyssey. Hollywood yes, but was grounded in what many saw as the near enough future. But here we are today. Where are our space hotels and asteroid mining and space tourism? Enthusiasm is great and hopefully this time around we'll see all of those in the next few decades, but save for the early stages(no pun) of reusable rockets they're not here yet, nor close to it.

_Tombstone_

Opinion: We could colonize the moon for just $10 billion — and make it happen by 2022

_Tombstone_

_Tombstone_ wrote: »

China is storming along at the min, 20 Launches planned for this year, new Original Rockets coming - the Long March 5 and 7 (7 is equivalent to Ariane 5/Dragon/Progress, March 5 is more powerful), they're sending up the first Module/Lab of their Tiangong Space Station early this year and 3 Taikonauts to Dock with it later in the year aswell. The Core Module is due to go up in 2018 with the March 5 and the whole thing due to go live in 2022 (ish). Their is a Module up there since 2011 that's due to be deorbit at some stage.

Oh OOOOOh, Chinas after losing contact with Tiangong1, that Module^^ up there since 2011, it was meant to come down in 2013. Now shes coming down hot, who knows when on who knows what. Big yoke.

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Has_Tiangong_1_gone_rogue_999.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiangong-1

Ghost Train

_Tombstone_ wrote: »

Oh OOOOOh, Chinas after losing contact with Tiangong1, that Module^^ up there since 2011, it was meant to come down in 2013. Now shes coming down hot, who knows when on who knows what. Big yoke.

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Has_Tiangong_1_gone_rogue_999.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiangong-1

just in case any ones worried

The European Space Agency, on the other hand, feels more comfortable pinning down the odds: "The annual risk of a single person to be severely injured by a re-entering piece of space debris is about 1 in 100,000,000,000" ? one in 100 billion, said Heiner Klinkrad, head of the ESA's Orbital Debris Office. In the course of a 75-year lifetime, then, the odds of getting injured by space junk would be a little less than one in 1 billion.

http://www.livescience.com/33511-falling-nasa-satellite-uars-risk.html

_Tombstone_

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0c5doik_o78

Engineers at NASA's Langley Research Center in Hampton, Virginia, kicked off a series of nine drop tests of a representative Orion crew capsule with crash test dummies inside to understand what the spacecraft and astronauts may experience when landing in the Pacific Ocean after deep-space missions.

The high-fidelity capsule, coupled with the heat shield from Orion's first flight in space, was hoisted approximately 16 feet (4.9 meters) above the water and vertically dropped into Langley’s 20-foot-deep (6.1 meters) Hydro Impact Basin.

The crash test dummies were instrumented to provide data and secured inside the capsule to help provide information engineers need to ensure astronauts will be protected from injury during splashdown.

Each test in the series simulates different scenarios for Orion’s parachute-assisted landings, wind conditions, velocities and wave heights the spacecraft may experience when touching down in the ocean.

Old hat isin't it???

But wahhey anyway!


https://www.nasa.gov/image-feature/langley/orion-drop-test-series-begins

_Tombstone_

_Tombstone_ wrote: »

Oh OOOOOh, Chinas after losing contact with Tiangong1, that Module^^ up there since 2011, it was meant to come down in 2013. Now shes coming down hot, who knows when on who knows what. Big yoke.

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Has_Tiangong_1_gone_rogue_999.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiangong-1

Lessons from Tiangong 1


A renaissance for Russian space science

_Tombstone_

CHINA REVEALS DESIGN FOR PLANNED TIANGONG 3 SPACE STATION

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCbKbi2qtNM

India's budget mini space shuttle blasts off



http://www.isro.gov.in/rlv-td/reusable-launch-vehicle-technology-demonstrator-rlv-td-images

_Tombstone_

China to launch Tiangong-2 in September ahead of new crew mission

China will make another big step in its manned space program with the launch of a new orbital laboratory and a new manned space mission in the next two months. The launch of the Tiangong-2 space station is expected to take place on September 15 via the use of a Chang Zheng (Long March) 2F/T2 rocket.

Capt'n Midnight

_Tombstone_ wrote: »

China will make another big step in its manned space program with the launch of a new orbital laboratory and a new manned space mission in the next two months. The launch of the Tiangong-2 space station is expected to take place on September 15 via the use of a Chang Zheng (Long March) 2F/T2 rocket.

Interesting, they are supposed to be trying out the Long March 5 this year too which should be good for up to 20-23 tonnes to LEO.

http://spaceflight101.com/spacerockets/long-march-5/

_Tombstone_

_Tombstone_ wrote: »

China to launch Tiangong-2 in September ahead of new crew mission

China will make another big step in its manned space program with the launch of a new orbital laboratory and a new manned space mission in the next two months. The launch of the Tiangong-2 space station is expected to take place on September 15 via the use of a Chang Zheng (Long March) 2F/T2 rocket.

And shes away, quick vid here, 2 man crew going up next month for a month to do this stuff

Composite material fabrication
Advanced-plant cultivation
Gamma ray burst polarization
Fluid physics
Space-to-earth quantum communications

They've a new cold atom space clock that that has an estimated precision of 10 to the power of minus 16 seconds. This means accuracy of the clock is within a one-second error every 30 million years. This exactitude will help measure previously undetectable fluctuations for experiments conducted in zero-gravity.

Europeans Astronauts are currently learning Chinese as they'll be the only ones with a permanent presence up there by mid 2020s with the Tiangong 3, the US are still refusing to talk to China about spacey stuff due to national security.

More info and stuff

Capt'n Midnight

_Tombstone_ wrote: »

Europeans Astronauts are currently learning Chinese as they'll be the only ones with a permanent presence up there by mid 2020s with the Tiangong 3, the US are still refusing to talk to China about spacey stuff due to national security.

Aren't the Russians going to undock their modules as a going concern when the ISS project is over ?

_Tombstone_

_Tombstone_ wrote: »

Oh OOOOOh, Chinas after losing contact with Tiangong1, that Module^^ up there since 2011, it was meant to come down in 2013. Now shes coming down hot, who knows when on who knows what. Big yoke.

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Has_Tiangong_1_gone_rogue_999.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiangong-1

Sometime late next year

Up to 100KG lumps will make it down somewhere.

josip

2 astronauts just gone up to Tiangong 2.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/17/china-sends-first-two-astronauts-to-live-onboard-its-tiangong-2-space-station
Maybe one of them was _Tombstone_?
Pity, he/she contributed a lot of news to this forum.

Kuva

_Tombstone_ wrote: »

Oh OOOOOh, Chinas after losing contact with Tiangong1, that Module^^ up there since 2011, it was meant to come down in 2013. Now shes coming down hot, who knows when on who knows what. Big yoke.

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Has_Tiangong_1_gone_rogue_999.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiangong-1

2 or 3 weeks to go on this. They have a prediction map of impact,


Alot of water, lots of land in those most likely spots.

You can see the station in the sky at night at the minute, around 5am.

https://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21738870-no-one-will-be-hurt-probably-out-control-chinese-space-station-will-soon

Capt'n Midnight

The Chinese aren't the only ones with eight tons of space junk heading our way

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-43418047

Something in the region of 20,000 items of 10cm or larger are currently being tracked.

The latest Airbus harpoon is being designed with the capability to capture one of the biggest rogue items of the lot - Europe's defunct Envisat Earth observation platform.

This 8-tonne behemoth died suddenly in orbit in 2012. "Envisat is the outlier," explained advanced project engineer Alastair Wayman.