Ma's Army 'news'

Pherekydes

Some of you may have already seen the breaking news, but Wang Junxia, the world record holder over 10k may have written a letter with several others complaining about being forced to take drugs:

http://www.athleticsweekly.com/featured/chinese-world-record-holder-wang-junxia-implicated-in-state-sponsored-doping-38662/

Wang won Olympic gold at 5k in Atlanta and WC gold at 10k in Stuttgart. Her Ma's Army colleagues beat Sonia O'Sullivan into 2nd and 4th in the 1500m and 3000m respectively in Stuttgart.

Chivito550

Unfortunately statute of limitations will prevent Sonia getting hold of those 2 gold medals.

Sandwell

Lol at the thought of the IAAF investigating state-sponsored doping. They were probably taking backhanders to keep it hushed up.

Chivito550

Maybe there is hope:

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/other-sports/sonia-o-sullivan-may-be-awarded-medals-after-chinese-drug-revelations-1.2523150

dna_leri

Sandwell wrote: »

Lol at the thought of the IAAF investigating state-sponsored doping. They were probably taking backhanders to keep it hushed up.

EVen better:

the IAAF has asked the Chinese Athletics Association to assist it in that process.
Read more at http://www.athleticsweekly.com/featured/chinese-world-record-holder-wang-junxia-implicated-in-state-sponsored-doping-38662/#Ueh1GT56RwcVolPj.99

Aaagh

Hemerodrome

Chivito550 wrote: »

Unfortunately statute of limitations will prevent Sonia getting hold of those 2 gold medals.

Which statute of limitations do you believe applies this case?

average_runner

IF the IAAF were any good they would just ban China from Rio.

Hemerodrome

average_runner wrote: »

IF the IAAF were any good they would just ban China from Rio.

We have the same number of failed tests at the Olympics as Chinese athletes, though ours were in equestrianism. Our most winning Olympian also later failed tests. Should Ireland be banned?

average_runner

Hemerodrome wrote: »

We have the same number of failed tests at the Olympics as Chinese athletes, though ours were in equestrianism. Our most winning Olympian also later failed tests. Should Ireland be banned?

Was it government sponsor doping?

ThisRegard

dna_leri wrote: »

EVen better:


Aaagh

The IAAF later responds saying the Chinese said they didn't do it, so they're satisfied that there's no problem here.

Hemerodrome

average_runner wrote: »

Was it government sponsor doping?

I have no way of knowing and neither do you. We have a state involment of some kind in horse industry, I have little idea what that consists of. Anyway, still the same number of failed tests at the Olympics for both countries, so just as much reason for both to be banned and there are countries with far more failed tests than either, US, Sweden, Ukraine etc. Why not call for all of them to be banned?

Chivito550

Hemerodrome wrote: »

I have no way of knowing and neither do you. We have a state involment of some kind in horse industry, I have little idea what that consists of. Anyway, still the same number of failed tests at the Olympics for both countries, so just as much reason for both to be banned and there are countries with far more failed tests than either, US, Sweden, Ukraine etc. Why not call for all of them to be banned?

Please provide statistics to back this up.

And failing tests at Olympics is only 1 out of about 1000 ways of determining that somebody is cheating. Life goes on outside of 2 weeks every 4 years you know!

Hemerodrome

To answer the deleted question which was directed at me, no, I wasn't forgetting Katie Taylor, but she's not our most winning Olympian. Our most winning Olympian, still the holder of 3 golds from Atlanta, is an athlete that is always conveniently airbrushed out of these discussions when people start accusing whole nations and want our national record to appear blameless.

ThisRegard

Hemerodrome wrote: »

To answer the deleted question which was directed at me, no, I wasn't forgetting Katie Taylor, but she's not our most winning Olympian. Our most winning Olympian, still the holder of 3 golds from Atlanta, is an athlete that is always conveniently airbrushed out of these discussions when people start accusing whole nations and want our national record to appear blameless.

Again, as pointed out there's a difference when a competitor and their coach conspire to cheat, and when the entire Olympic squad is doing in the knowledge, and perhaps instruction, of the government of the time.

Hemerodrome

Chivito550 wrote: »

Please provide statistics to back this up.

And failing tests at Olympics is only 1 out of about 1000 ways of determining that somebody is cheating. Life goes on outside of 2 weeks every 4 years you know!

Public records show 2 failed tests at the Olympics for each country. So right back atcha, where are your stats in relation to your 1 in 1000 ways claim?

Hemerodrome

ThisRegard wrote: »

Again, as pointed out there's a difference when a competitor and their coach conspire to cheat, and when the entire Olympic squad is doing in the knowledge, and perhaps instruction, of the government of the time.

And you *know* this how? What evidence have you got? Not speculation, but evidence.

ThisRegard

Evidence for what?

Sandwell

ThisRegard wrote: »

The IAAF later responds saying the Chinese said they didn't do it, so they're satisfied that there's no problem here.

That's grand so. Close thread?

Chivito550

Hemerodrome wrote: »

To answer the deleted question which was directed at me, no, I wasn't forgetting Katie Taylor, but she's not our most winning Olympian. Our most winning Olympian, still the holder of 3 golds from Atlanta, is an athlete that is always conveniently airbrushed out of these discussions when people start accusing whole nations and want our national record to appear blameless.

I deleted it because I misread it. I thought you said most recent winning Olympian. I realised my error straight away but you were too quick on the ball for me to get away with it!

adrian522

I love the way when China or Russia other "suspicious" countries athlete's do well , they are all cheating and should be banned from competing. When Irish or British athletes do well the same is not said of them. Double standards?

Is it not possible that some Russian or Chinese athletes might be clean?

Chivito550

Hemerodrome wrote: »

Public records show 2 failed tests at the Olympics for each country. So right back atcha, where are your stats in relation to your 1 in 1000 ways claim?

Because there are competitions every week throughout the world for the rest of the 4 years, along with out of competition testing, blood passports, documentaries uncovering evidence etc. Failing a test at the Olympics is like failing an IQ test. Most cheats don't get caught this way, only the idiots.

Also, outside of Waterford Crystal, who else from Ireland tested positive at the Olympics?

Chivito550

adrian522 wrote: »

I love the way when China or Russia other "suspicious" countries athlete's do well , they are all cheating and should be banned from competing. When Irish or British athletes do well the same is not said of them. Double standards?

Is it not possible that some Russian or Chinese athletes might be clean?

No it's not double standards. When the UK and Irish governments start funding widespread doping programmes, and covering up any evidence to this, then you will have a point. Until then you're comparison is frankly ridiculous.

adrian522

What is ridiculous is the idea that all Chinese athletes should be banned based on something that happened over 20 years ago. Where is the proof that there is state sponsored doping going on currently?

Dodge

Chivito550 wrote: »

Also, outside of Waterford Crystal, who else from Ireland tested positive at the Olympics?

Denis Lynch and his horse Latinus failed a test in 2008 prior to the final stage

http://www.rte.ie/sport/olympics/2008/0821/236936-lynchd1/

Lynch seems to have been fairly honest about the whole thing and I don't think anyone of a sound mind can compare this to systematic doping such as the East German rowers or the 1990s chinese middle/long distance runners

FWIW East Germany is still top of the rowing medal list despite only rowing in 5 games

ThisRegard

adrian522 wrote: »

I love the way when China or Russia other "suspicious" countries athlete's do well , they are all cheating and should be banned from competing. When Irish or British athletes do well the same is not said of them. Double standards?

Is it not possible that some Russian or Chinese athletes might be clean?

It is possible, of course. And you'd expect to see them progress over the years and hang around for a few years still in the medals, barring injury. But how often do you see them appear at a championship, win a pile of medals, and then drop out of being in any way competitive at that point?

adrian522

Personally I'm against blanket bans based on nationality. It stinks of something worse than than doping to be honest.

Chivito550

adrian522 wrote: »

What is ridiculous is the idea that all Chinese athletes should be banned based on something that happened over 20 years ago. Where is the proof that there is state sponsored doping going on currently?

That wasn't the part I was disagreeing with. It was your general point. If you follow this closely enough you will know the some countries are more lax than others in terms of anti-doping. While some may not be state sponsored, they may still be protected. Look at Operation Puerto in Spain, the farce in Turkish athletics, the fact you can buy EPO over the counter in Morocco. Hardly fair to compare us with this.

ThisRegard

Just reading up on Wang to see if she had been around for a few years after her Olympic win, she retired, and in fairness she had a good year in 1993 as well.

But her coach was fired from the Chinese squad in 2000 after 6 athletes he {edit, a genuine typo] doped coached failed drug tests, and there was suspicions around here since 1993.

But despite all this, the IAAF named her as one of the inaugural members of their hall of fame.

Chivito550

ThisRegard wrote: »

Just reading up on Wang to see if she had been around for a few years after her Olympic win, she retired, and in fairness she had a good year in 1993 as well.

But her coach was fired from the Chinese squad in 2000 after 6 athletes he doped failed drug tests, and there was suspicions around here since 1993.

But despite all this, the IAAF named her as one of the inaugural members of their hall of fame.

1996 is not the year everyone is suspicious of. She had left Ma by then. 1993 is the year in question. And if you think 3:51, 8:06 and 29:31 is a "good" year, you have curious standards of excellence!

average_runner

adrian522 wrote: »

Personally I'm against blanket bans based on nationality. It stinks of something worse than than doping to be honest.

Its all in a bad place at the moment and I would expect alot worst to come. But something needs to happen to repair the image

ThisRegard

Chivito550 wrote: »

1996 is not the year everyone is suspicious of. She had left Ma by then. 1993 is the year in question. And if you think 3:51, 8:06 and 29:31 is a "good" year, you have curious standards of excellence!

I know it's not the dodgy year, as I said I was just wondering if she fell off the world after her Olympics. But in 1993, Wiki tells me anyway, she set a record for that year in the marathon and won the worlds in the 10k, set 3 world records, one by 42 seconds for the 10k becoming the first to get a sub 30 in that event.

So that's "good" year in my book. I don't think too many people could argue otherwise.

adrian522

Chivito550 wrote: »

That wasn't the part I was disagreeing with. It was your general point. If you follow this closely enough you will know the some countries are more lax than others in terms of anti-doping. While some may not be state sponsored, they may still be protected. Look at Operation Puerto in Spain, the farce in Turkish athletics, the fact you can buy EPO over the counter in Morocco. Hardly fair to compare us with this.

If you want EPO you can get it delivered to anywhere in the world, my point was the casual Athletics fan is quick to throw blame around to certain countries and to give the benefit of the doubt to athletes from other countries, this is what I have a big problem with.

The temptation is there in every country and while there are more tests here than in some countries it does seem to be pretty easy to avoid detection unfortunately.

Chivito550

ThisRegard wrote: »

I know it's not the dodgy year, as I said I was just wondering if she fell off the world after her Olympics. But in 1993, Wiki tells me anyway, she set a record for that year in the marathon and won the worlds in the 10k, set 3 world records, one by 42 seconds for the 10k becoming the first to get a sub 30 in that event.

So that's "good" year in my book. I don't think too many people could argue otherwise.

I just found it funny that you referred to her in fairness having a good year in 1993 as a footnote. It struck me as an incredible understatement.

Chivito550

adrian522 wrote: »

If you want EPO you can get it delivered to anywhere in the world, my point was the casual Athletics fan is quick to throw blame around to certain countries and to give the benefit of the doubt to athletes from other countries, this is what I have a big problem with.

The temptation is there in every country and while there are more tests here than in some countries it does seem to be pretty easy to avoid detection unfortunately.

There are cheats in all countries, in all sports. In some countries it is not tolerated to the same degree and there is moral outrage. Cathal Lombard and Martin Fagan didn't last long upon their return as they were not welcomed back by the athketics community. This is not the same everywhere.

Fear of getting caught is isn't the only reason people might choose not to dope. If there is a strong anti-doping culture, there are going to be less chancing it IMO, as the fallout afterwards may not be worth the risk. In many countries an eyelid isn't batted when a dirty athlete returns.

Not perfect here of course, but I do believe if every country treated doping the same way as us, then athletics would be in a better place.

Sandwell

average_runner wrote: »

Its all in a bad place at the moment and I would expect alot worst to come. But something needs to happen to repair the image

The only possible way to repair the image at this stage is for the IAAF to hand over anti-doping to a fully independent body and for that body to be sufficiently powerful and well-resourced to carry out random testing in all jurisdictions, from the Nike Oregon project to isolated training camps in the Kenyan and Ethiopian highlands. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any appetite for such radical change within the IAAF so athletics is doomed to continue stumbling down the same road it's been on for the last few decades with public interest gradually ebbing away.

Chivito550

Sandwell wrote: »

The only possible way to repair the image at this stage is for the IAAF to hand over anti-doping to a fully independent body and for that body to be sufficiently powerful and well-resourced to carry out random testing in all jurisdictions, from the Nike Oregon project to isolated training camps in the Kenyan and Ethiopian highlands. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any appetite for such radical change within the IAAF so athletics is doomed to continue stumbling down the same road it's been on for the last few decades with public interest gradually ebbing away.

To be honest I've attended the last 3 world championships, 2 of the last 3 European Chanpionships, and the last Olympic Games and attendances for all of them were impressive. Bolt pulled out of the Paris DL last year and 40,000 still showed up for it. I don't agree public interest is waning. In this country interest is low, but that really hasn't got much to do with doping, but rather poor promotion of the sport here.

average_runner

Chivito550 wrote: »

To be honest I've attended the last 3 world championships, 2 of the last 3 European Chanpionships, and the last Olympic Games and attendances for all of them were impressive. Bolt pulled out of the Paris DL last year and 40,000 still showed up for it. I don't agree public interest is waning. In this country interest is low, but that really hasn't got much to do with doping, but rather poor promotion of the sport here.

I think people will still watch it but their perception of it is different.
Bolt is a major asset to the sport at the moment.

Dodge

Chivito550 wrote: »

There are cheats in all countries, in all sports. In some countries it is not tolerated to the same degree and there is moral outrage. Cathal Lombard and Martin Fagan didn't last long upon their return as they were not welcomed back by the athketics community. This is not the same everywhere.

Would the reaction have been different if they had world or olympic medals to their name?

Chivito550

Dodge wrote: »

Would the reaction have been different if they had world or olympic medals to their name?

Different sport, but hasn't Michelle Smith been deleted out our minds when it comes to discussing sporting greats? Yes I believe the reaction would be the same.

Chivito550

average_runner wrote: »

I think people will still watch it but their perception of it is different.
Bolt is a major asset to the sport at the moment.

I don't know. Athletics is quite popular on the continent. You'd have to talk to people from a range of countries to see if this really is the case.

ThisRegard

Sonia is going to be on with Anton Savage now to discuss this.

_Tombstone_

I need to get me some of these drugs, I've a stubborn Strava Trophy from 2 years ago that refuses to fall.

Every Athlete is a cheater nowadays - that's my starting point - BBC Docu a few months back told all. Certain sports companies have buddies in all the right places, I wouldn't expect any change even in the far future. The money is crap if you're not winning.

Cyciling hit a new low this Week, http://uk.businessinsider.com/vivax-motor-bike-doping-scandal-2016-2?r=US&IR=T

Track and Field has another few scandals to come yet, it can only get worse.

Chivito550

_Tombstone_ wrote: »

I need to get me some of these drugs, I've a stubborn Strava Trophy from 2 years ago that refuses to fall.

Every Athlete is a cheater nowadays - that's my starting point - BBC Docu a few months back told all. Certain sports companies have buddies in all the right places, I wouldn't expect any change even in the far future. The money is crap if you're not winning.

Cyciling hit a new low this Week, http://uk.businessinsider.com/vivax-motor-bike-doping-scandal-2016-2?r=US&IR=T

Track and Field has another few scandals to come yet, it can only get worse.

Do you have the same starting point for other sports? Soccer, Rugby, Tennis?

Frankly, this is an ignorant stance.

average_runner

Chivito550 wrote: »

Do you have the same starting point for other sports? Soccer, Rugby, Tennis?

Frankly, this is an ignorant stance.

In fairness none of those three sports have been exposed like cycling or athletics.

The bbc would love to expose the spanish in the soccer so they can get one up on them, but it hasn't happened.

That doesn't mean there isn't a problem, for example Spains recovery from euro semi with Portugal was amazing and their fall from grace in Brazil.

You will mention a certain tennis player but his fall from grace has said otherwise now, but his recovery rate was questionable at times.

ultrapercy

Chivito550 wrote: »

Do you have the same starting point for other sports? Soccer, Rugby, Tennis?

Frankly, this is an ignorant stance.

I have to agree, to state as your starting point that everyone is a cheat is insulting to the clean majority and means you only consider yourself clean (if even). I don't think anyone actually believes that but it's more of a reflection of the THEM and us disconnect betweet elite sports people and the participating/spectating masses.

Chivito550

average_runner wrote: »

In fairness none of those three sports have been exposed like cycling or athletics.

The bbc would love to expose the spanish in the soccer so they can get one up on them, but it hasn't happened.

That doesn't mean there isn't a problem, for example Spains recovery from euro semi with Portugal was amazing and their fall from grace in Brazil.

You will mention a certain tennis player but his fall from grace has said otherwise now, but his recovery rate was questionable at times.

I am of the belief that if we knew the true extent of doping in all sports, the percentages who cheat would be roughly the same in all sports, possibly even higher in sports like football where the financial incentives are higher. You can't expose something if you don't try to. I love tennis, but there is no doubt the sport is not really doing what it should to ensure drug cheats don't prosper.

It is an open secret in tennis circles that this certain high profile tennis player was a cheat, and his outrageous recovery from injury in 2013 to be better than ever before may not have been from an injury at all, but a silent ban. I know somebody involved in tennis internationally and she has heard the whisperings about him. Nice guy, but nice guys dope too!

There's also a disturbing amount of female tennis players who suddenly retire at the very top immediately after they claim their first ever slam at a mature age. That's questionable.

Chivito550

ultrapercy wrote: »

I have to agree, to state as your starting point that everyone is a cheat is insulting to the clean majority and means you only consider yourself clean (if even). I don't think anyone actually believes that but it's more of a reflection of the THEM and us disconnect betweet elite sports people and the participating/spectating masses.

Agreed. Joggers running slow times who can't envisage how much goes into being a great athlete. Easier to dismiss them all as drug cheats than to train harder and smarter.

average_runner

Chivito550 wrote: »

I am of the belief that if we knew the true extent of doping in all sports, the percentages who cheat would be roughly the same in all sports, possibly even higher in sports like football where the financial incentives are higher. You can't expose something if you don't try to. I love tennis, but there is no doubt the sport is not really doing what it should to ensure drug cheats don't prosper.

It is an open secret in tennis circles that this certain high profile tennis player was a cheat, and his outrageous recovery from injury in 2013 to be better than ever before may not have been from an injury at all, but a silent ban. I know somebody involved in tennis internationally and she has heard the whisperings about him. Nice guy, but nice guys dope too!

There's also a disturbing amount of female tennis players who suddenly retire at the very top immediately after they claim their first ever slam at a mature age. That's questionable.

But this person your talking about along with Federer were the ones who asked, threatened to strike to get random house calling testing!!! They forced that to happen.

But he wasn't better than ever, this is wrong to say. At that time Fed was changing his game, Murray was struggling with injury and Novak was only working his way to his best. He took Nadal to a five setter in Paris and beat him on clay also.

This player has now shown the same symptons of Chang, Stich, Courier, hewitt etc

Not saying he is clean either but its not as simple as others think

ThisRegard

average_runner wrote: »

The bbc would love to expose the spanish in the soccer so they can get one up on them,

I'd love the BBC to expose them, but nothing to do with getting anything over them. The raw data is there, just under lock and key of a judge.

average_runner

ThisRegard wrote: »

I'd love the BBC to expose them, but nothing to do with getting anything over them. The raw data is there, just under lock and key of a judge.

All other leagues aren't under that lock and key

Chivito550

average_runner wrote: »

But this person your talking about along with Federer were the ones who asked, threatened to strike to get random house calling testing!!! They forced that to happen.

But he wasn't better than ever, this is wrong to say. At that time Fed was changing his game, Murray was struggling with injury and Novak was only working his way to his best. He took Nadal to a five setter in Paris and beat him on clay also.

This player has now shown the same symptons of Chang, Stich, Courier, hewitt etc

I'm referring to the US Open and in general Autumn of 2013. He was untouchable.

Anyway, with Operation Puerto, and Fuentes saying he worked with tennis players, it's very hard to envisage he was clean. Spain don't have THAT many tennis players.