Dublins HQ funding for coaching under scrutiny

Dots1982

Here's a few things GAA can do

- redistribute the Games development funds in a much less advantageous way to Dublin, In fact Dublin have got so much over the past ten years then the funds should be turned off to the point that they only get double what the next best funded county gets (Dublin getting funded more than any province for a period of 10 years was basically insane and i'd like to see more questions asked of the GAA hierarchy about it)
- Offer GPOs incentives to move around the country away from Dublin, if they don't take the incentives then lay them off. Carrot & Stick.
- Build a large 30000 all seater stadium somewhere outside Dublin but in Leinster. This should be the venue for all Leinster championship games except the final and in hurling it would be a venue for even more games as attendances are lower. It would also get 2 quarter finals. Its not a training venue for any county.
- Setup a committee to register & supervise all college attending players and suspend any player found to have played more than twice a week, player burnout is a huge problem that has not been tackled. Dublin have less of a problem with it because their player pick is so big so they have an advantage in terms of rotating players without weakening their teams.
- The GPA (because the GAA never will) survey their members on their thoughts of going professional and playing with amalgamated counties to address the population imbalance between Dublin and the other counties. The county structure is completely outdated but unless the sport goes at least semi professional there is no chance of counties joining up because it is impractical to expect players to travel across county lines for training. The GPA needs to get more radical about the future of the game because the current system is getting us nowhere.
- The GAA launch a committee to explore a GAATV channel to cover more club, county underage games and college games. Increase exposure and revenue and get ex players on the payroll to analyse and present these games. Dublin themselves aren't a million miles away from already doing this.
- Upgrade county grounds to make them more consumer friendly, sell naming rights to grounds. County grounds are almost without exception complete and utter sh*tholes.
- setup exhibition games between the pick of players in divisions 2, 3 & 4 and Dublin (so 4 teams altogether). It would show consumers that the best players in their counties can compete with & beat the best in Ireland and also should that amalgamated teams are no threat. Have a team holiday for the winners of this mini competition and get them to play exhibition games abroad.

Dots1982

BonnieSituation wrote: »

When you see what happens in Cork when they want to redevelop a stadium you have to wonder what others would be like with a hape of cash to hand.

In an ideal world, other counties would be asking Dublin how to use any cash they get or asking how they establish their plans in a coherent way. Of course a lot of counties are too proud to ask.

I'd look at Dublin, Mayo, Tyrone, Kilkenny, Donegal and Kerry as counties to emulate in certain fashions like say, NZ are in rugby union. It's not an accident they ship players and coaches around the planet like they do.

Kind of makes the planning & execution easy when they get funded to a level above a province and have a commericial income that dwarfs every other county I would say.

But if you think it was about the planning and not the huge sums of cash thrown their way then I feel there isn't much I can do to dissuade you.

nice_guy80

Dublin already has a huge advantage in terms of population, jobs, facilities, no need for players to leave county for study or work or travel long distances for games.

Then add in the huge funding for games development

Paulzx

Dots1982 wrote: »

Kind of makes the planning & execution easy when they get funded to a level above a province and have a commericial income that dwarfs every other county I would say.

But if you think it was about the planning and not the huge sums of cash thrown their way then I feel there isn't much I can do to dissuade you.

To be fair I think you're being disingenuous accusing him of saying it's all about the planning. Nobody has said that.

Funding is no good without the wherewithall to use it correctly. Aspirational plans are no good without the funding to make them more than aspirations. One can't function without the other.

The Dublin County Board used the large sums they have received to great success. It didn't happen overnight. More funds should absolutely be funnelled into other counties. Some will use them wisely and others won't. Counties with already well established good practices will see quick improvments with an injection of wisely used funding. Others will take longer to see an effect and some will pi$s the funds down a black hole.

Nobody believes that Dublin should keep benefiting more than others but it's up the counties themselves to make a solid play for a bigger share and put together an unbeatable argument to the GAA.

We all know that it's becoming increasingly more about the brand and income at the top levels of the GAA. They know the Dubs are a cash cow and probably value that over everything else. I'm not saying that's right. Counties outside of Dublin who feel left short need to get their thumbs out of their asses and shout louder

Dots1982

Paulzx wrote: »

To be fair I think you're being disingenuous accusing him of saying it's all about the planning. Nobody has said that.

Funding is no good without the wherewithall to use it correctly. Aspirational plans are no good without the funding to make them more than aspirations. One can't function without the other.

The Dublin County Board used the large sums they have received to great success. It didn't happen overnight. More funds should absolutely be funnelled into other counties. Some will use them wisely and others won't. Counties with already well established good practices will see quick improvments with an injection of wisely used funding. Others will take longer to see an effect and some will pi$s the funds down a black hole.

Nobody believes that Dublin should keep benefiting more than others but it's up the counties themselves to make a solid play for a bigger share and put together an unbeatable argument to the GAA.

We all know that it's becoming increasingly more about the brand and income at the top levels of the GAA. They know the Dubs are a cash cow and probably value that over everything else. I'm not saying that's right. Counties outside of Dublin who feel left short need to get their thumbs out of their asses and shout louder

I think he feels If every county followed Dublin's plan they would get to the same place as Dublin is which they wouldn't for a variety of reasons.

nice_guy80

I know of counties who have submitted detailed yet very modest plans for hurling development, but have received no funding.

BonnieSituation

Dots1982 wrote: »

Here's a few things GAA can do

- redistribute the Games development funds in a much less advantageous way to Dublin, In fact Dublin have got so much over the past ten years then the funds should be turned off to the point that they only get double what the next best funded county gets (Dublin getting funded more than any province for a period of 10 years was basically insane and i'd like to see more questions asked of the GAA hierarchy about it)

There are far worse things than what the GAA did for Dublin. If anything it has proven that when used wisely funding can help. 1995-2011 was hell but no one had any qualms outside of the capital.

I agree that certain funding should be wound down at this stage.

- Offer GPOs incentives to move around the country away from Dublin, if they don't take the incentives then lay them off. Carrot & Stick.

This makes no sense. If a GPO for Dublin is required and someone applies for the job and then they get it why is there a need for a "stick"?

- Build a large 30000 all seater stadium somewhere outside Dublin but in Leinster. This should be the venue for all Leinster championship games except the final and in hurling it would be a venue for even more games as attendances are lower. It would also get 2 quarter finals. Its not a training venue for any county.

Is this a priority?

- Setup a committee to register & supervise all college attending players and suspend any player found to have played more than twice a week, player burnout is a huge problem that has not been tackled. Dublin have less of a problem with it because their player pick is so big so they have an advantage in terms of rotating players without weakening their teams.

Another bureaucratic layer of nothingness.

Perhaps HQ needs to highlight that burnout is an issue they are taking seriously and then inform applicable teams that it is unacceptable that it is ignored. Also, players have to be empowered to say no.

- The GPA (because the GAA never will) survey their members on their thoughts of going professional and playing with amalgamated counties to address the population imbalance between Dublin and the other counties. The county structure is completely outdated but unless the sport goes at least semi professional there is no chance of counties joining up because it is impractical to expect players to travel across county lines for training. The GPA needs to get more radical about the future of the game because the current system is getting us nowhere.

This is a whole heap of different issues masquerading as the same one.

Why would it need to be professional to expect some lad from Manorhamilton or Dromahair to line out for the representative team for the new figurative county board of Sligo-Leitrim?

Professionalism will drive the wedge further and let's behonest it will seek to only add more money to that East Coast behemoth that is the root of all the ills of the GAA.

- The GAA launch a committee to explore a GAATV channel to cover more club, county underage games and college games. Increase exposure and revenue and get ex players on the payroll to analyse and present these games. Dublin themselves aren't a million miles away from already doing this.

GAAGO?

- Upgrade county grounds to make them more consumer friendly, sell naming rights to grounds. County grounds are almost without exception complete and utter sh*tholes.

Some are. But why is there a need for half of them at the size they are?

In fact why does Longford need a County ground of in itself? (Not picking on Longford, just using them as an example of a county that could easily share with numerous others.

- setup exhibition games between the pick of players in divisions 2, 3 & 4 and Dublin (so 4 teams altogether). It would show consumers that the best players in their counties can compete with & beat the best in Ireland and also should that amalgamated teams are no threat. Have a team holiday for the winners of this mini competition and get them to play exhibition games abroad.

And this would succeed where the Interpros failed how?

Dots1982 wrote: »

Kind of makes the planning & execution easy when they get funded to a level above a province and have a commericial income that dwarfs every other county I would say.

But if you think it was about the planning and not the huge sums of cash thrown their way then I feel there isn't much I can do to dissuade you.

Planning is a huge aspect. The money helps but throwing money at it doesn't equate success. You're delusional to think that it would.

How do you think Dublin should be funded then? On area? Club numbers? Member numbers? Population? Proportion of members to population?

BonnieSituation

Dots1982 wrote: »

I think he feels If every county followed Dublin's plan they would get to the same place as Dublin is which they wouldn't for a variety of reasons.

I feel nothing.

It's quite clear that if other counties are funded and administered to a similar (scaled) level as Dublin they would achieve huge success. It's so clear that they would. I don't see how you fail to see this.

If counties want to waste cash on vanity projects (PUC for example) then so be it. But don't complain about the big boys in Dublin getting over-funded when you've pissed funding up against the wall.

JRant

Dots1982 wrote: »

Here's a few things GAA can do

- redistribute the Games development funds in a much less advantageous way to Dublin, In fact Dublin have got so much over the past ten years then the funds should be turned off to the point that they only get double what the next best funded county gets (Dublin getting funded more than any province for a period of 10 years was basically insane and i'd like to see more questions asked of the GAA hierarchy about it)
- Offer GPOs incentives to move around the country away from Dublin, if they don't take the incentives then lay them off. Carrot & Stick.
- Build a large 30000 all seater stadium somewhere outside Dublin but in Leinster. This should be the venue for all Leinster championship games except the final and in hurling it would be a venue for even more games as attendances are lower. It would also get 2 quarter finals. Its not a training venue for any county.
- Setup a committee to register & supervise all college attending players and suspend any player found to have played more than twice a week, player burnout is a huge problem that has not been tackled. Dublin have less of a problem with it because their player pick is so big so they have an advantage in terms of rotating players without weakening their teams.
- The GPA (because the GAA never will) survey their members on their thoughts of going professional and playing with amalgamated counties to address the population imbalance between Dublin and the other counties. The county structure is completely outdated but unless the sport goes at least semi professional there is no chance of counties joining up because it is impractical to expect players to travel across county lines for training. The GPA needs to get more radical about the future of the game because the current system is getting us nowhere.
- The GAA launch a committee to explore a GAATV channel to cover more club, county underage games and college games. Increase exposure and revenue and get ex players on the payroll to analyse and present these games. Dublin themselves aren't a million miles away from already doing this.
- Upgrade county grounds to make them more consumer friendly, sell naming rights to grounds. County grounds are almost without exception complete and utter sh*tholes.
- setup exhibition games between the pick of players in divisions 2, 3 & 4 and Dublin (so 4 teams altogether). It would show consumers that the best players in their counties can compete with & beat the best in Ireland and also should that amalgamated teams are no threat. Have a team holiday for the winners of this mini competition and get them to play exhibition games abroad.

With all due respect, not one single point there will help other counties improve their own structures.

Setting up a tv station, building a new stadium and redevelope existing ones will only syphon more funds away from where it's really required, in schools and clubs.

I doubt even the most die hard Dubs support would argue with other counties getting more funding but why should Dublins be cut to such an extent?

You may not like or agree with me here but Dublin is the main economic driving force for the entire country and will always receive more by way of funding than any other county.

It should also be noted that Dublin have pumped resources into the big and small ball forms of the game for both the men and women. How many other counties can say the same?

How other counties can be better helped is an extremely complicated matter. Funding can certainly help but it can only ever suceed if it is backed up with proper planning and ambition.

cart man

Has Dublin now reached a size that it would be better for the game that it be broken up - say Fingal, South Dublin, Dublin City and DunLaoghaire/Rathdown?

Dots1982

BonnieSituation wrote: »

There are far worse things than what the GAA did for Dublin. If anything it has proven that when used wisely funding can help. 1995-2011 was hell but no one had any qualms outside of the capital.

I agree that certain funding should be wound down at this stage.



This makes no sense. If a GPO for Dublin is required and someone applies for the job and then they get it why is there a need for a "stick"?



Is this a priority?



Another bureaucratic layer of nothingness.

Perhaps HQ needs to highlight that burnout is an issue they are taking seriously and then inform applicable teams that it is unacceptable that it is ignored. Also, players have to be empowered to say no.

- The GPA (because the GAA never will) survey their members on their thoughts of going professional and playing with amalgamated counties to address the population imbalance between Dublin and the other counties. The county structure is completely outdated but unless the sport goes at least semi professional there is no chance of counties joining up because it is impractical to expect players to travel across county lines for training. The GPA needs to get more radical about the future of the game because the current system is getting us nowhere.

This is a whole heap of different issues masquerading as the same one.

Why would it need to be professional to expect some lad from Manorhamilton or Dromahair to line out for the representative team for the new figurative county board of Sligo-Leitrim?

Professionalism will drive the wedge further and let's behonest it will seek to only add more money to that East Coast behemoth that is the root of all the ills of the GAA.

- The GAA launch a committee to explore a GAATV channel to cover more club, county underage games and college games. Increase exposure and revenue and get ex players on the payroll to analyse and present these games. Dublin themselves aren't a million miles away from already doing this.

GAAGO?



Some are. But why is there a need for half of them at the size they are?

In fact why does Longford need a County ground of in itself? (Not picking on Longford, just using them as an example of a county that could easily share with numerous others.



And this would succeed where the Interpros failed how?



Planning is a huge aspect. The money helps but throwing money at it doesn't equate success. You're delusional to think that it would.

How do you think Dublin should be funded then? On area? Club numbers? Member numbers? Population? Proportion of members to population?

Longford need to their club games in Longford and it is harsh to expect them to groundshare with Tullamore or Mullingar for home league games.

GAAGO is not a TV channel. It's just a one stop shop for all games carried by sky, rte, TG4 and setanta. it has no original content.

Interpros propose is proving what province has the best footballers. Is that the purpose of what I proposed? It's not a huge issue but more a personal thing where i see the game going in 20 years.

GPOs are overloaded in Dublin, my plan gives them a choice to keep their job and avoid painful lay-offs that the GAA want to avoid.

1995-2011 was hell, Dublin were the most successful county in Leinster in this period.

I think Dublin should get funded no more than Double the next best funded province for the next 10 years. Given their commercial might & the fact they have got more funding than every province for the last 10 years this is extremely generous in my view.

JRant

cart man wrote: »

Has Dublin now reached a size that it would be better for the game that it be broken up - say Fingal, South Dublin, Dublin City and DunLaoghaire/Rathdown?

In a word, No.

It would destroy the game in Dublin.

Why is that I hear you say?

Well the Dublin team has a history behind it, rivalries with other counties going back to the start of the championship.
If you want to see what happens when you start creating makey uppey teams look no further than the Welsh Pro 12 teams. No support, no history, no future, no thanks.

Dublin is fine the way we are. Unless we start a serious conversation about breaking up other successful counties like Kerry and Kilkenny.

Dots1982

JRant wrote: »

With all due respect, not one single point there will help other counties improve their own structures.

Setting up a tv station, building a new stadium and redevelope existing ones will only syphon more funds away from where it's really required, in schools and clubs.

I doubt even the most die hard Dubs support would argue with other counties getting more funding but why should Dublins be cut to such an extent?

You may not like or agree with me here but Dublin is the main economic driving force for the entire country and will always receive more by way of funding than any other county.

It should also be noted that Dublin have pumped resources into the big and small ball forms of the game for both the men and women. How many other counties can say the same?

How other counties can be better helped is an extremely complicated matter. Funding can certainly help but it can only ever suceed if it is backed up with proper planning and ambition.

Giving them more GPOs will not improve the lot of counties outside Dublin?

Paulzx

I also completely agree with breaking up Dublin and losing the inherent identity of the county.


Outside of that if the Gaa were to split Dublin into the counties of South Dublin, Fingal, Dun Laoire and Dublin City we would now have a serious waste of resources on administration etc.

4 county boards instead of one existing one? Along with all the accompanying commitees etc.

JRant

Dots1982 wrote: »

Giving them more GPOs will not improve the lot of counties outside Dublin?

Of course it would help but you're advocating sacking GPO's who refuse to move. That's not any way to get the best out of people in your employment. I'd prefer 2/3 enthusiastic GPO's to 10 who are there begrudgingly.

For a meaningful discussion you need to move on from resources stripping Dublin and concentrate on how to successfully implement plans and structures in other counties.

JRant

Paulzx wrote: »

I also completely agree with breaking up Dublin and losing the inherent identity of the county.


Outside of that if the Gaa were to split Dublin into the counties of South Dublin, Fingal, Dun Laoire and Dublin City we would now have a serious waste of resources on administration etc.

4 county boards instead of one existing one? Along with all the accompanying commitees etc.

Good point. It's like the current waste in the system. Counties that are far to small to warrant major investment need to pool resourses and create centralised centres of excellence.

Dots1982

Paulzx wrote: »

I also completely agree with breaking up Dublin and losing the inherent identity of the county.


Outside of that if the Gaa were to split Dublin into the counties of South Dublin, Fingal, Dun Laoire and Dublin City we would now have a serious waste of resources on administration etc.

4 county boards instead of one existing one? Along with all the accompanying commitees etc.

I'd be more in favour of amalgamating counties and perhaps if Dublin's rate of progression continues then taking Fingal off them and joining it with Louth & maybe Armagh. That way Dublin would mostly keep their identity.

But this thing about been a slave to county boundaries setup by english civil servants more than a century ago should not be clung on if its ruining the competitiveness of the game.

Dublin just been split in 2 or 4 equal parts would mean a lot of counties would still lose to them as well as the other problems with that issue.

Dots1982

JRant wrote: »

Of course it would help but you're advocating sacking GPO's who refuse to move. That's not any way to get the best out of people in your employment. I'd prefer 2/3 enthusiastic GPO's to 10 who are there begrudgingly.

For a meaningful discussion you need to move on from resources stripping Dublin and concentrate on how to successfully implement plans and structures in other counties.

You can't give Dublin less funding and still keep all their GPOs. The money should be redirected from Dublin to the other parts of the country.

I know it hurts but one county getting funded over and above every province (up to 47% of the total kitty) should never have happened in the first place but it did so now it needs to be drastically scaled back.

Dublin still have their commercial revenue to keep a huge coterie of coaches, commercial directors, high performance directors on their payroll.

bruschi

JRant wrote: »

It should also be noted that Dublin have pumped resources into the big and small ball forms of the game for both the men and women. How many other counties can say the same?

€5 million of funds from the GAA coffers certainly helped them "pump funds" into the small ball alright. I'm sure other counties would be able to lay claim to the same if they got that sort of outside contribution for hurling.

nice_guy80

bruschi wrote: »

€5 million of funds from the GAA coffers certainly helped them "pump funds" into the small ball alright. I'm sure other counties would be able to lay claim to the same if they got that sort of outside contribution for hurling.

that money for hurling in Dublin comes directly from the sports council. courtesy of Bertie

bruschi

nice_guy80 wrote: »

that money for hurling in Dublin comes directly from the sports council. courtesy of Bertie

it was through the GAA. The GAA gets sports council money and they chose to spend it on Dublin hurling, I'm sure with Berties help as you say and also Sean Kelly who was president at the time. either way, it's easy to say Dublin spend money on hurling when they got so much to specifically spend on it.

ArmaniJeanss

All we've seen is the figures that go from GAAHQ to the counties, and Dublin appear to be dramatically favoured.
But the payments direct to counties are only around 25% of the development fund so surely we'd need to see a fuller picture before knowing just how biased it is towards Dublin.

Another €1.7M of this development fund goes to the Leinster Council and is passed on by them to the counties (partly as money but mostly as payment for resources I think). If this €1.7M is split 12 ways (or similar) then any overall bias towards Dublin would be mathematically much less stark.

ArielAtom

This may be a way to simplistic view, but the funding they get may be proportional to the numbers playing. I know in my club at the two age groups im involved in we have 75 boys and 80 girls. This requires a lot of volunteers much the same as every other club in the country. I know we have to fund raise for every bit of equipment we need at the age groups involved.

Are people saying give Dublin nothing and lose a lot of kids to Soccer, Rugby etc? If so then we have a far bigger problem on our hands than Dublins supposed dominance.

So is the fair way of distributing funding on a per head basis or as it appears by some poster take all the money from Dublin sure they have sponsors. Would that be fair?

Prop Joe

ArielAtom wrote: »

So is the fair way of distributing funding on a per head basis or as it appears by some poster take all the money from Dublin sure they have sponsors. Would that be fair?

I think the per head member is a good guide line,But also i think the powers that be should pick a region for instance "Kildare,Meath,Offaly,Westmeath" and take the Dublin template and pour the cash & structures into making them 4 counties competitive at Football & Hurling like Dublin.Put in in for 5/6 years and see the benefits.Then move on to "Cavan,Leitrim,Longford,Sligo" If this was done County boards would soon become self sufficient and follow Dublin's template of sponsorship,marketing rights,etc..While Westmeath will never be able to demand the same sponsorship money as Dublin,Kerry etc.. they should be able to significantly increase what they are getting now

bruschi

Prop Joe wrote: »

I think the per head member is a good guide line,But also i think the powers that be should pick a region for instance "Kildare,Meath,Offaly,Westmeath" and take the Dublin template and pour the cash & structures into making them 4 counties competitive at Football & Hurling like Dublin.Put in in for 5/6 years and see the benefits.Then move on to "Cavan,Leitrim,Longford,Sligo" If this was done County boards would soon become self sufficient and follow Dublin's template of sponsorship,marketing rights,etc..While Westmeath will never be able to demand the same sponsorship money as Dublin,Kerry etc.. they should be able to significantly increase what they are getting now

yeah I wouldnt disagree with that either. Its the balance I want to see with it all, you cant just say take away Dublins money and let them fend for themselves, that'd be just petty.

But its not balanced as it is. Dublin has about 9 times the population of Wexford (and even allowing for that, some of that population still plays for their home county/club). But Wexford have 4 GDA/GPO's for the county (3 full time 1 part time) and Dublin, for the main part have 1 per club, sometimes too. I dont know the exact number, but it is certainly a lot more than 9 times the number Wexford have. Granted, clubs have to contribute to this, but to have someone employed full time in the club for coaching resources is a fantastic resource. Same for funds and other resources, the proportionate spend is not equivalent. Dublin invested €2m into a centre of excellence and got a €9m worth centre. Wexford invested the same and got a €1m worth centre (that in itself was due to failures on their part)

Thats a good idea too with the development of regions and maybe that was the intention with the 5m spend on hurling in Dublin. However the Carlow/Laois/Westmeath/Antrim venture got just €0.9m between the 4 of them over 5 years, so €45k per year each. And I'm not even sure if this is in place or went ahead.

Colt Knost

ArielAtom wrote: »

This may be a way to simplistic view, but the funding they get may be proportional to the numbers playing. I know in my club at the two age groups im involved in we have 75 boys and 80 girls. This requires a lot of volunteers much the same as every other club in the country. I know we have to fund raise for every bit of equipment we need at the age groups involved.

Are people saying give Dublin nothing and lose a lot of kids to Soccer, Rugby etc? If so then we have a far bigger problem on our hands than Dublins supposed dominance.

So is the fair way of distributing funding on a per head basis or as it appears by some poster take all the money from Dublin sure they have sponsors. Would that be fair?

But how can other counties realistically compete with Dublin into the future if there is such a gap in
1 - Player numbers
2 - Funding
3 - Commercial Potential

nice_guy80

Cork has 122 GAA clubs

based on clubs alone, they should be getting so much more (even though I hate them)

Could the likes of Westmeath etc actually tell you where the €45K was spent on hurling? I doubt it