Crossing a picket line

Gael23

What happens when one of a number of unions in a workplace calls a strike? Do the remaining staff report to work as usual and do customers have access.

Hollister11

Unless your Union are picketing then go to work as normal

dazed+confused

Never cross a picket, regardless of your union membership status.

BreadnBuddha

dazed+confused wrote: »

Never cross a picket, regardless of your union membership status.

Go to work unless your own union ballots in favour of strike action.

Anyone who gives you grief about crossing the picket unless your union is also 'out' is a fool.

Without your own union serving strike action notice, you won't have a leg to stand on if you don't go to work.

Stheno

dazed+confused wrote: »

Never cross a picket, regardless of your union membership status.

And face disciplinary action for not showing up to work?

_Brian

dazed+confused wrote: »

Never cross a picket, regardless of your union membership status.

Stheno wrote: »

And face disciplinary action for not showing up to work?

Yea, but you can live of the union morals, right ??

Stheno

_Brian wrote: »

Yea, but you can live of the union morals, right ??

Not really getting your point?

_Brian

Stheno wrote: »

Not really getting your point?

Sorry. I didn't agree with previous post about not crossing the picket. It's risking your job. To have that attitude.

Mrs OBumble

Stheno wrote: »

And face disciplinary action for not showing up to work?

Which is likely to be less unpleasant than the unofficial "disciplinary action" taken by union members if you cross their picket line.

It's a hard call OP. Look to your own union for advice.

amdublin

It's a really difficult one.

What if you don't agree with the reason for the picket?

seamus

Customers do have access, pickets cannot block public access to a premises.

Union members could also find themselves fired for being intimidating or abusive to customers entering the premises, as this is gross misconduct separate from the strike action.

It's a really difficult one.

What if you don't agree with the reason for the picket?

Any civilised person would recognise the individual's right to disagree with a picket and go back to work. Unfortunately those who engage in unions are rarely rational, so if you're seen going in the union's staunchest supporters - who are usually a little bit unhinged anyway - will try to make life in work difficult for you. And because they're union cronies, your workplace will be wary about going after them for bullying, etc, and the union itself won't step in.

One of the main reasons I'll never join a union.

heffomike54

I have crossed a picket line union before and I think if you are friendly to the people on strike they will understand your position of having to protect your job. Still not an enjoyable thing to have to do plus the work atmosphere is very strange on days like that.

TallGlass

How longs the strike? Could you call in sick.

If you plan on going to work, there's not much you can other than go to work. Or join that union if you can.

TG1

TallGlass wrote: »

How longs the strike? Could you call in sick.

If you plan on going to work, there's not much you can other than go to work. Or join that union if you can.

Just to note calling in sick on a day strike action is going ahead will be viewed very poorly and you run the risk of disciplinary action being taken for A breach of the sick leave policy.

Macy0161

TallGlass wrote: »

How longs the strike? Could you call in sick.

If you plan on going to work, there's not much you can other than go to work. Or join that union if you can.

Most places have more restrictive policies on sick leave and annual leave when there's industrial action.

If you're not on strike, you don't have legal protections if you don't cross. It's more a moral question as to whether you chose to cross one or not. If you're in a union not taking action, that union should be talking to management about respecting members who chose not to cross.

Most subsequent ill feeling I've seen in such circumstances are where the people stand to benefit if the action is successful but don't partake or if those crossing go out of their way to make a point of crossing (I've seen people deliberately barge through picket lines and stuff like that). Non union members are equally likely to be "unhinged" and to go out of their way to cause issues.

Most people on both sides will respect the choice you feel you have to make.

RainyDay

TallGlass wrote: »

If you plan on going to work, there's not much you can other than go to work. Or join that union if you can.

There are other options. It is not unknown for non-union members or members of non-striking unions to state that they will not cross a picket and simply not attend work. They will lose the day's pay/pension, but given that advance notice is given, there is usually no disciplinary impact.

Taking holidays or a sickie is a big no-no.

Macy0161 wrote: »

Most subsequent ill feeling I've seen in such circumstances are where the people stand to benefit if the action is successful but don't partake or if those crossing go out of their way to make a point of crossing (I've seen people deliberately barge through picket lines and stuff like that). Non union members are equally likely to be "unhinged" and to go out of their way to cause issues.

Talk to anyone who worked in the big banks. People were divided for literally decades after the long drawn out 1976 strike into those who did and those who didn't - very bad feeling arose.

txt_mess

It's always going to be personal choice so just make sure you are clear on why you will / will not cross the line and I think you can morally be ok.

Never been part of a union but I do see both sides here I have seen pickets for really good reasons and some not so.

I have crossed picket lines in the past and gotten comments to which my answer was are you or the union going to pay my bills and that's the truth of it at the end of the day if you risk your job make sure you can afford to lose it as without the union protection it just like any other day of work for you.

Toots

RainyDay wrote: »

Talk to anyone who worked in the big banks. People were divided for literally decades after the long drawn out 1976 strike into those who did and those who didn't - very bad feeling arose.

I was union rep for my bank branch in 2011, and one woman who crossed the picket in the 70s wanted to get back in the union, so she came to me to do it. When I asked union HQ what the deal was, she was sent out this form, and she had to get people who were in the union at that time to sign it saying they didn't object to her being allowed to re-join. I think she had to get something like 10 signatures. I thought she'd have no problem getting them - she got 3.

OP if you are in a union and they aren't striking, they should already have issued communications about whether you should cross. I don't suppose there's any way you could work from home on the day of the strike?

mahoganygas

Toots wrote: »

I was union rep for my bank branch in 2011, and one woman who crossed the picket in the 70s wanted to get back in the union, so she came to me to do it. When I asked union HQ what the deal was, she was sent out this form, and she had to get people who were in the union at that time to sign it saying they didn't object to her being allowed to re-join. I think she had to get something like 10 signatures. I thought she'd have no problem getting them - she got 3.

This is what I hate about unions. They claim to be democratic but that couldn't be further from the truth.

If she didn't agree with this particular strike then she was well within her rights to cross the picket. She may well have agreed with every other industrial action proposed by the union, but because she crossed 1 picket line she was instantly ostracised.

It's effectively a political whip system.

Macy0161

mahoganygas wrote: »

This is what I hate about unions. They claim to be democratic but that couldn't be further from the truth.

If she didn't agree with this particular strike then she was well within her rights to cross the picket. She may well have agreed with every other industrial action proposed by the union, but because she crossed 1 picket line she was instantly ostracised.

It's effectively a political whip system.

I would take the member choosing not to abide by the majority vote to be the one with the problem with democracy tbh. You make you're argument against a course of action before a vote, but then abide by it if you lose.

hardCopy

mahoganygas wrote: »

This is what I hate about unions. They claim to be democratic but that couldn't be further from the truth.

If she didn't agree with this particular strike then she was well within her rights to cross the picket. She may well have agreed with every other industrial action proposed by the union, but because she crossed 1 picket line she was instantly ostracised.

It's effectively a political whip system.

Macy0161 wrote: »

I would take the member choosing not to abide by the majority vote to be the one with the problem with democracy tbh. You make you're argument against a course of action before a vote, but then abide by it if you lose.

I'd never join a union myself but would have to agree with Macy. When you join up you've got to be willing to go with the majority vote, that's the what democracy is, otherwise why bother balloting?

RainyDay

mahoganygas wrote: »

This is what I hate about unions. They claim to be democratic but that couldn't be further from the truth.

If she didn't agree with this particular strike then she was well within her rights to cross the picket. She may well have agreed with every other industrial action proposed by the union, but because she crossed 1 picket line she was instantly ostracised.

It's effectively a political whip system.

You seem confused about what 'democracy' means. We live in a democracy, but we don't get to ignore the laws we disagree with. It's the same for a union - if you're not prepared to be part of 'strength in numbers', you have no business in a union. If you expect other members to support your issues, you need to support theirs - all agreed through democratic processes of course.

FrStone

Toots wrote: »

I was union rep for my bank branch in 2011, and one woman who crossed the picket in the 70s wanted to get back in the union, so she came to me to do it. When I asked union HQ what the deal was, she was sent out this form, and she had to get people who were in the union at that time to sign it saying they didn't object to her being allowed to re-join. I think she had to get something like 10 signatures. I thought she'd have no problem getting them - she got 3.

OP if you are in a union and they aren't striking, they should already have issued communications about whether you should cross. I don't suppose there's any way you could work from home on the day of the strike?

In alot of places, you may also be putting future career advances at risk by crossing the picket line. Those picketing will not want you to work with them if they are ever in the position to promote someone.

Those who are high up in many unionized companies were once union members and only quit because they are now very senior management. So would probably have a soft spot for the union. I know plenty of managers who won't hire people who have crossed picket lines.

Your own union should have issued instructions regarding the picket. If not you should strongly consider staying at home.

FrStone

mahoganygas wrote: »

This is what I hate about unions. They claim to be democratic but that couldn't be further from the truth.

If she didn't agree with this particular strike then she was well within her rights to cross the picket. She may well have agreed with every other industrial action proposed by the union, but because she crossed 1 picket line she was instantly ostracised.

It's effectively a political whip system.

You get a vote in any decision to engage in industrial action. You are obliged to fully support the outcome as a union member.

If this was not the case unions would be weak. You should support the decision of your colleagues even if you disagree.

BreadnBuddha

FrStone wrote: »

....I know plenty of managers who won't hire people who have crossed picket lines....

I know plenty of managers who won't hire people who would refuse to cross picket lines when they weren't striking themselves.

If I had an employee who called in sick or refused to cross the picket line when their union wasn't striking, I'd have no hesitation in enforcing company disciplinary procedures against that individual.

Union officials only care about themselves and the majority view. Every union has a minority of members who are pushed to one side and sometimes sacrificed for the 'greater good'. Another form of self serving politics and to hell with anyone who doesn't agree.

I'd rather be judged on my individual merits than have a union protected mentality. Solidarity isn't all its cracked up to be. Unions treat dissenting members with the most venomous responses so why would anyone in this day and age want to be a part of that?

BreadnBuddha

FrStone wrote: »

You should support the decision of your colleagues even if you disagree.

Why? Because that's the union way?

What's wrong with someone standing by the convictions of their own conscience and principles?

If you disagree, you disagree. Why should you have to put up and shut up, just because everyone else takes an opposing view?

I know how it works. I just don't understand WHY it remains that way. People are more educated, better equipped and supported in the workplace today. National and international legislation along with social welfare systems provide for the people, while unions simply make doing business more difficult, reducing competitiveness and weakening the value of an Irish workforce as a production or service input.

If someone is happy to go along with something they disagree with, just because others say they should, they're a bit of an idiot.

Even in government, there's an opposition. They don't bully each other the way union workers do. That's really saying something.

RainyDay

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

If I had an employee who called in sick or refused to cross the picket line when their union wasn't striking, I'd have no hesitation in enforcing company disciplinary procedures against that individual.

Knock yourself out. You might find it difficult to explain to a tribunal at some stage why you took disciplinary action against employee A (non-union member) but not employee B (union member).

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Union officials only care about themselves and the majority view. Every union has a minority of members who are pushed to one side and sometimes sacrificed for the 'greater good'. Another form of self serving politics and to hell with anyone who doesn't agree.

That's the joy and the horror of democracy for you.

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

I'd rather be judged on my individual merits than have a union protected mentality. Solidarity isn't all its cracked up to be. Unions treat dissenting members with the most venomous responses so why would anyone in this day and age want to be a part of that?

That's your choice. Union membership isn't compulsory. Most members see it as a worthwhile option to help support them against poor management practices.

BreadnBuddha

RainyDay wrote: »

Knock yourself out. You might find it difficult to explain to a tribunal at some stage why you took disciplinary action against employee A (non-union member) but not employee B (union member).


That's the joy and the horror of democracy for you.



That's your choice. Union membership isn't compulsory. Most members see it as a worthwhile option to help support them against poor management practices.

I will never work for an employer who recognises a union in the first place. Without recognition, it's a moot point you're trying to make. Strength in numbers doesn't stack up so well against outstanding performance as an individual anyway and the slightest whiff of a union mentality or disruptive behaviours in the workplace from an employee and they'll be let go. Plenty of opportunity to do so. No need if they're not causing trouble and doing their job well.

Unions silence or ignore dissenting members and protect those who often don't deserve it. I'm not going to overlook all the bad in favour of the occasional good a union does for a member. Legislation and clear contracts of employment already provide adequate means for a genuine case to be heard or an employee in difficulty to be assisted.

dazed+confused

dazed+confused wrote: »

Never cross a picket, regardless of your union membership status.

This is bollox,
A few years ago a building site I was working on was picketed by the TEEU.
My fathers family business with about 7/8 staff at the time.
None of who were union members.

So if someone pickets your workplace you just wont go in?
So the whole job should shut down?

hardCopy

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Why? Because that's the union way?

What's wrong with someone standing by the convictions of their own conscience and principles?

If you disagree, you disagree. Why should you have to put up and shut up, just because everyone else takes an opposing view?

If you can't accept the idea of putting aside your own opinions and going with the majority decision then you're just not the union type.

In for a penny, in for a pound. Take the rough with the smooth.

Choose a cliche.

I couldn't do it myself, that's why I'd never join one. But if a friend who was a union member asked me if they should ignore an official balloted strike I'd tell them "Hell No". Implicit in your decision to join is a decision that strength in numbers and presenting a unified front is more important than the opinion of an individual member, you must trust the collective and follow their decisions.

OP, I wouldn't necessarily say there's no way to avoid crossing the picket. Not all managers would have a problem with non-union members making alternative arrangements for the day.

I worked as a contractor when some of my client's staff went on strike. We were given clearance to work off site and just emailed files to ourselves the day before to work on.

A friend of mine is a non-union staff member in a heavily unionised organisation, when his union went out his manager had a quiet word and advised him to book holidays for the day, in his case he would have been the only member of his department in attendance and wouldn't have been productive on his own.

seamus

FrStone wrote: »

You get a vote in any decision to engage in industrial action. You are obliged to fully support the outcome as a union member.

If this was not the case unions would be weak. You should support the decision of your colleagues even if you disagree.

What about closed shops?

If you work in a closed shop but you disagree with the union, how is that fair?

That kind of absolutist tyranny was exactly what unions were created to fight against, not to become one themselves.

onasis

If you are a union member then you are supposed to follow the rules of that union. Strike action is not simply decided by the union – a ballot takes place first and then if the majority agree, strike notice will be served and a strike will take place. If a strike is in place then it only affects the members of that particular union, everyone else is expected to be at work. If you are a member of a union that is on strike it would not be acceptable for you to cross the picket line and in doing so you could be expelled from the union.

Peppa Pig

Toots wrote: »

I was union rep for my bank branch in 2011, and one woman who crossed the picket in the 70s wanted to get back in the union, so she came to me to do it. When I asked union HQ what the deal was, she was sent out this form, and she had to get people who were in the union at that time to sign it saying they didn't object to her being allowed to re-join. I think she had to get something like 10 signatures. I thought she'd have no problem getting them - she got 3.

OP if you are in a union and they aren't striking, they should already have issued communications about whether you should cross. I don't suppose there's any way you could work from home on the day of the strike?

Is this seriously saying that somebody who crossed a picket line in the 70s could not rejoin the union 40 years later because 7 people refused her?

I'd be surprised if 10 people all worked together after 40 years service. How could you find people that were in a union over 40 years ago, or even still working.

Either way - that is one hell of a grudge to keep.

RainyDay

seamus wrote: »

What about closed shops?

Do these exist anymore?

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

I will never work for an employer who recognises a union in the first place. Without recognition, it's a moot point you're trying to make. Strength in numbers doesn't stack up so well against outstanding performance as an individual anyway and the slightest whiff of a union mentality or disruptive behaviours in the workplace from an employee and they'll be let go. Plenty of opportunity to do so. No need if they're not causing trouble and doing their job well.

The 'recognition' issue is moot thanks to progressive legislation brought in by this Government to ensure that unions can get rights for their employees, regardless of whether the employer recognises the union or not.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/workers-given-new-protections-in-fight-for-better-conditions-30272478.html

And as for the 'letting go for sniff of union mentality', well, that's kinda how you end up with a strike on your hands. It's pretty hard to fire someone in Ireland without due cause or a large payout.

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Unions silence or ignore dissenting members and protect those who often don't deserve it. I'm not going to overlook all the bad in favour of the occasional good a union does for a member. Legislation and clear contracts of employment already provide adequate means for a genuine case to be heard or an employee in difficulty to be assisted.

Unions don't silence anyone. Everyone gets to say their piece, and then a collective decision is made - no different from any company board, or GAA club committee or Cabinet meeting.

And how did you work out that unions protect those who don't deserve it? You're about 20 years behind current practices.

hardCopy wrote: »

A friend of mine is a non-union staff member in a heavily unionised organisation, when his union went out his manager had a quiet word and advised him to book holidays for the day, in his case he would have been the only member of his department in attendance and wouldn't have been productive on his own.

It would be fairly common practice for a 'no holidays' rule to be issued and enforced by HR in a strike situation to prevent managers helping wimps to wimp out. If you're not in a union, then you have to bear personal responsibility for the decision to either stay at home or cross the picket. It's your choice.

FrStone

seamus wrote: »

What about closed shops?

If you work in a closed shop but you disagree with the union, how is that fair?

These have been illegal with years....

seamus

FrStone wrote: »

These have been illegal with years....

Yeah, they still exist though. Companies who make it a condition of employment that you join a particular union, and resignation from said union is considered resignation from your position.

These aren't strictly illegal since the employee has agreed to it. But that hasn't been tested.

RainyDay

seamus wrote: »

Yeah, they still exist though. Companies who make it a condition of employment that you join a particular union, and resignation from said union is considered resignation from your position.

These aren't strictly illegal since the employee has agreed to it. But that hasn't been tested.

Any examples?

Toots

Peppa Pig wrote: »

Is this seriously saying that somebody who crossed a picket line in the 70s could not rejoin the union 40 years later because 7 people refused her?

I'd be surprised if 10 people all worked together after 40 years service. How could you find people that were in a union over 40 years ago, or even still working.

Either way - that is one hell of a grudge to keep.

I think it was more to do with the particular picket she crossed - the one in the 70s went on for months and a lot of people ended up in real hardship financially from being on strike for so long. I think it brought about some pretty major changes in employment terms for the workers, so it was seen that this person reaped the benefits without having to go through any of the work it took to get them (she crossed the picket fairly early into the strikes AFAIK)

Oddly there were loads of people still working in our branch and in other branches nearby who had been on the strikes, I think they were in 1976 and this was in 2011, so a lot of the people would still have had a few years to go before retirement. I was quite surprised that she didn't get more people saying yes. I'm not sure if it was on principle, or if it was a case that some people just didn't like her.

seamus

RainyDay wrote: »

Any examples?

Superquinn continued the practice, requiring all employees to become members of Mandate upon joining.

I don't know what the practice is since the rebrand to SuperValu.