Dating and misogyny in 2016

gothic_doll

So this is on the topic of the dating scene in 2016 and is connected to several both long-running and short-term incidents that I've experienced. For background, I've dated on and off, mostly not serious for the last 5 years. I've had a few things that lasted a few months and a few occasional fwb as well. As for now, I've taken a couple years out recently, as I have other priorities, and also suspected that things have got worse in terms of the male attitude towards women, rather than better. Despite going to great efforts to avoid it, I was proven right last week by a charm-charm-charm-lies-drop incident. He even got annoyed (or denied it) when I made several predictive jokes as to the inevitable drop. I think he truly believes his own narrative, which make for the best liars of course...

My feeling is, women have become more 'disposable.'.
I'm an Irish/English girl who is slim, friendly and attractive (self-reported, haha) and 28. I love, admire and respect men and would love to have a guy as part of my life, as a friend & more. I don't have any commitments, demands, worries, pressures, problems etc that might cause a problem in this and am very easy-going and agreeable.

I'm at a bit of a loss in terms of how to confidently move forward, so I'm kinda looking to hear that there are guys out there who think in the long term, and don't consider women to be commodities. And think of us as equal human beings rather than prizes, or fantasy ideals.

Any words to that effect will be much appreciated! Right now I'm feeling that regardless of what a guy tells you, or thinks he wants, all he is capable of is a few days of fun and nothing else.

In terms of what happened with the guys, I was my normal self, was open and giving, considerate and didn't do anything to hurt them. I liked them and was friendly, affectionate and warm. They were openly attracted to me and we got along well. We have a great time and are physically very comfortable. The guy will go on the chase/charm to an extreme way, and when they have their attention /satisfaction/confidence boost, the source of that (me) is dismissed in favour of seeking another, and previously even allowed to drag on as their source of free attention for months or years, without any return for me. These same guys will tend to be perma-single, but never address why this might be.
There have been other occasions where it was casual, fun, and nobody was messed with or lied to, but of course the negative experiences are the ones that get you thinking.

My take on it is I think with the advent of Tinder, and more open and available life choices, many guys feel that they can just hop-on, hop-off in terms of dating and relationships, and they tell themselves they will find someone 'perfect' instead (where perfect is an incredibly narrow definition), or they create an invented, and often hypocritical or ironic slight as to why they dismiss the other party.

Tinders match/unmatch, the option of blocking and muting anyone you don't wish to deal with ties into this. Those options are to protect the vulnerable, not to allow someone to escape from their actions unfettered, without addressing their issues and allowing themselves to move on (rather than be trapped in this temporary and pointless interest-interest-interest-drop for no reason- cycle as above.)

So my question for you guys is- do you have any advice on avoiding misogynistic behaviour when dating? Do you have any happy tales to help me regain my confidence? Or experiences of similar to share with me? What is your opinion on the current scene/male attitude? Do you feel dismissed, or like a commodity?

Virgil°

I dunno OP. What you describe, IME in no way happens exclusively to women. I've been treated almost the exact same by women on tinder but I don't blame women as a whole for my experiences

This is internet dating OP. Its fast and shallow and it can take going through quite a few time wasters before you find someone who wont mess you around.

It seems to me that you're not having a great time of it on internet dating and you're looking for an easy scapegoat ie.. misogyny. It's easy to do but if you wanna use internet dating to find someone you can't allow yourself to become bitter over a few bad experiences.

All the best.

Some people are suited to online dating. Some are not. I think you might be the latter, OP.

Whitewinged

TBH I don't have much experience with dating because I met my husband when I was 20 in 2004 before internet dating was so popular but before that I did meet one or two men who share the characteristics that you mention.

I can say that my experience with my husband was very different. He didnt give me extreme over the top compliments that seemed a bit too far fetched or phoney. Compliments are lovely but usually you can recognise if they are not very real. I once had a man i barely knew tell me that i should consider myself to be "the best person in the world" and a long list of various other compliments which are nice to hear, can be a turn on but you can't place to much value on those. Just something said in the moment. My oh is and was very romantic but it was just not like you say "extreme". It was genuine though. I never felt doubt or worried where I stood in the relationship nor did he. We just got on really well, we were attracted to one another and went with the flow. We got to know each other this way. By both being ourselfs.

In fairness to the men that you describe, while not as much anymore, I guess there is still pressure for men to do alot of the pursuing and wooing. Some men and I'm sure some woman too, are not very authentic especially at the beginning of something. Obviously both of you are trying to show your best side. They need to get to know you but in order to get you to open up and be you, they might put on an act or come on strong. After you have shown them who you are, maybe they find it too hard to show you who they really are. So while you are comfortable with them, they are not yet emotionally attached and comfortable with you yet. Some will prefer you to only see this idolised version of them and they are not ready to be real or that close or vulnerable to someone else. So I don't think it's about idolising you but idolising themself. That is why it is easy for them to walk away because to sum it up, they don't want to be known. They prefer to have fleeting intense relationships than risk investing in longer more intimate ones. Perhaps the thought of rejection from a real intimate relationship is too scary. That's what I think anyway.

There isn't really anything you can do about it gothic girl but just know that it is not what you are looking for. I'm sure you can spot some signs and maybe avoid that type a bit more. There really isn't anything wrong with the man or you. It's just how it is but there are plenty of men who do want long term truly intimate relationships, they are usually not the ones who seem so intense though. That's probably because they are in it for the long haul.

dudara

Posters - please do not use this as platform for a general discussion on Tinder and dating. Stick to offering advice directly to the OP.

dudara

miamee

Anyone who is laying on the charms thick and heavy as soon as you get talking to them is to be avoided, OP. The charm serves a purpose and you have been happy and willing to fall for it so far. Maybe that suited you at the time, no judgement here, but what you are looking for appears to have changed but your method of selecting men to get to know has not.
The good and bad thing about online dating is the sheer amount of choice and you have chosen these men out of all others. Perhaps, if you want to start meeting men for something potentially more serious, you need to start filtering out the charmers and the ones who are full on from the start - those kinds of connections tend to burn bright but FAST.

Penny Tration

Like miamee said, anyone who goes on a full charm offensive is probably just after one thing.

With internet dating, I found it quite shallow, though I DID meet some men genuinely looking for a relationship. And I think men experience the rejection or casual stuff just as much as women do, I've seen many male friends get their hopes up for what was in the end some casual sex.

Tbh if every single guy you've dated in the past five years has only wanted casual fun in the end, look to yourself and ask what you're doing to only attract those men. Maybe the "type" you've been going for isn't suiting you, so maybe you should look outside of your usual comfort zone?

As for happy endings - not online dating, but a guy I met through work made it very clear he wanted to sleep with me. I wouldn't. We just became friends, although I knew he still just wanted some casual fun. Eventually he realised he wanted more, asked me out properly and we're madly in love a few years along. he told me straight out that initially he just thought he'd like to sleep with me, but getting to know me changed that and he wanted more. So it can happen.

I don't think wanting casual sex is in any way a form of misogyny. Misogyny is the hatred of women. Only wanting casual encounters doesn't mean you hate women.

ahnowbrowncow

You said you made several jokes about the inevitable drop? That's a self fulfilling prophecy right there as it comes across as insecure and desperate.

Maybe you've just been really unlucky with men but it's coming across that you've a victim complex. You do not bear any responsibility for the failings of these relationships and are quick to shout out misogyny (synonymous of many with a victim complex). So maybe focus on improving yourself instead of tarring a whole gender.

LegacyUser

Tbh, I mostly agree with the op (as much as I don't want to) If a man is willing to come into my life and prove me wrong, I would be more than happy!
However op, you can't go into a relationship with this mindframe. Thats why I am taking a break from men for a little bit, I would suggest you do the same and try work on yourself.

Mr. Incognito

I am finding it hard to marry this statement

I love, admire and respect men

With the general tone of your post. So if I guy doesnt fancy you its because he is permanently single and treats women like a commodity? Even the most entrenched bigoted person could not seriously believe that if dating doesnt work out with a person that they have a pathelogical dislike of women.

Misogyny is the new buzz word. You cant open the Times or the Indo without some vacous columnist proclaiming how something is misogynist. For Clarity

Misogyny (/mɪˈsɒdʒɪni/) is the hatred or dislike of women or girls. Misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including sexual discrimination, belittling of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women.

If lads you are seeing are not into you, maybe it's not that they all carry a pathelogical hatred of women, maybe it's just you are not that interesting, or as wonderful as you think. In other words, maybe a succession of men dont have a problem. Maybe you have a chip on your shoulder that people recognise that they dont want to be dealing with.

I can find plenty of evidence for this in your post. Head wrecking behaviours such as

1. I was proven right last week by a charm-charm-charm-lies-drop incident. He even got annoyed (or denied it) when I made several predictive jokes as to the inevitable drop.

2. I've taken a couple years out recently, as I have other priorities, and also suspected that things have got worse in terms of the male attitude towards women, rather than better.

3. My feeling is, women have become more 'disposable.'.

4. Despite going to great efforts to avoid it, I think he truly believes his own narrative, which make for the best liars of course...

5. Right now I'm feeling that regardless of what a guy tells you, or thinks he wants, all he is capable of is a few days of fun and nothing else.

6.The guy will go on the chase/charm to an extreme way, and when they have their attention /satisfaction/confidence boost, the source of that (me) is dismissed in favour of seeking another, and previously even allowed to drag on as their source of free attention for months or years, without any return for me.

7.but of course the negative experiences are the ones that get you thinking.

8. These same guys will tend to be perma-single, but never address why this might be.

9. Those options are to protect the vulnerable, not to allow someone to escape from their actions unfettered, without addressing their issues and allowing themselves to move on

These are red flags. They point to someone who is expecting a certain behaviour from men. For them to make advances, get their bit and run off. I suspect your texts consist of - You only want X, don't deny it or some other head wrecking behaviour.

I have used Tinder, and POF and Tagged and have met my last ex gf of three years on it and the girl I am dating now I also met online. I can tell you that the girls who exhibited these all men want one thing signs would be instantly binned in the block folder.

Online dating is the same as real dating, plenty of weirdos to filter out. You get what you give. If you are giving confident relaxed vibes you find confident relaxed people, if you are giving needy sex vibes you get needy sex.

Its not them. It's you.

Work on you.

I don't have any commitments, demands, worries, pressures, problems etc that might cause a problem in this and am very easy-going and agreeable.

Anyone who thinks this way has got issues.

We ALL have commitments, demands, worries and pressures. That's real life. It seems that YOU are the one looking for perfection.

gothic_doll

Thank you so much for your responses so far.

Whitewinged: Completely agree with everything you've posted, and I've thought the same thing in terms of them idolising themselves, and not being comfortable to show me the 'real' them.
In fact last week's guy even said his hero is himself (in a conversation online where I mentioned that women have a hard time learning to respect /love ourselves as we are taught to idolise others, rather than see the best in ourselves. He agrees and says he doesn't have this problem as his hero is himself.)

Penny Tration: Great username! I did check up on the definition of misogyny, and sexualising women is one of them. If the guys are 28 and have a hard time respecting/trusting women as people (no long-term or no relationships despite constantly dating and charming, and no previous trauma to deter them from one/an easy life) then that shows a certain problem to me. I realise I didn't include a few important details to preserve anonymity, but trust me that the approach taken wasn't one of equality and respect.

Miamee: Thank you and I completely agree. I will try and avoid the charm offensive type in future.

Virgil: I'd say wary rather than bitter. I'm still ridiculously hopeful about things working out in those terms, but at the same time can't help looking at what's happened and thinking that all guys are after the lay. (patently incorrect, I know, but that is the extent of my treatment.)

Ahnobrowncow: I would be the last person to be talking about misogyny or feminism, but after several very similar experiences, where I went in with the open mind and a good attitude, and got charmed/wood to the extreme and then an abrupt end, it's hard to think otherwise. I agree with the idea of improve yourself before expecting the same from others - and in fact that's why I'm posting.
I'm a much better person than I was a few years ago, approach, outlook, rationality, so on. Yet still get treated the same by guys. I'm selecting the wrong people, evidently, and need to figure out the warning signs.

gothic_doll

Mr Ingognito: You've just selected a few bullet-points from my post and reposted them.

In the case of last week's guy, I spoke to him at length and he has come up with various excuses as to why things didn't work out (girls not liking his sense of humour, getting offended, saying things to him without backing it up.) This didn't happen with me, but he still came up with excuses.
When it came to me, his complaint was I was not tall/heavy enough (he doesn't want to be double the size of me.) and he viewed himself as an extrovert, and was looking for another. The fact we agreed on most things and got along extremely well physically was not a factor in continuing to meet me. He said (at nearly 29) his longest relationship is 3 months, yet he is constantly on the prowl, messaging women, on whatsapp all day, and so on. Quite obviously he is just a charmer, my problem was somehow not managing to see this. (though I did anticipate it.). He said many, many things on the topic of how he isn't one of those guys, and then just did it anyway.

Mr. Incognito

gothic_doll wrote: »

Mr Ingognito: You've just selected a few bullet-points from my post and reposted them.

In the case of last week's guy, I spoke to him at length and he has come up with various excuses as to why things didn't work out (girls not liking his sense of humour, getting offended, saying things to him without backing it up.) This didn't happen with me, but he still came up with excuses.
When it came to me, his complaint was I was not tall/heavy enough (he doesn't want to be double the size of me.) and he viewed himself as an extrovert, and was looking for another. The fact we agreed on most things and got along extremely well physically was not a factor in continuing to meet me. He said (at nearly 29) his longest relationship is 3 months, yet he is constantly on the prowl, messaging women, on whatsapp all day, and so on. Quite obviously he is just a charmer, my problem was somehow not managing to see this. (though I did anticipate it.). He said many, many things on the topic of how he isn't one of those guys, and then just did it anyway.

He has given you various reasons why it didnt work out. Instead of accepting this you have decided to present him as some sort of predator on the prowl.

In other words, it's his problem not any of the reasons offered, none of which you accept as valid - which you say are "excuses".

He wasnt into you. So what. Most people accept that and move on. You seem to have some need to attack men both individually and generally as a consequence.

You aslo seem to have missed the entire point of my post. Those bullet points are red flags that you have posted where you are displaying your own insecurities, and entrenched views.

I think you need to step back and re-examine your relationship with men in general and just be friends with a few guys and knock dating on the head.

njs030

Op I agree with the previous poster that said you need to look to yourself for answers.
Making jokes about "the inevitable drop" makes you sound insecure and needy no matter how jokingly you think you've said it.
Tbh the conversations you're having online sound very intense and heavy- as does the opening post in this thread. Maybe learn to lighten things up and make it enjoyable for both of you until you see where things go.

On the other hand....There is some men and women who act exactly how you've said but it's you that keeps choosing them and you that's letting yourself hang around. Next time someone seems to be messing you around just cut ties and walk away.
I think you need to look at both yourself and the people you choose to date.

I spent a couple of years online dating, I met a few messers but most were decent people, I did find thinking of them as a new friend for the first while helped me avoid rushing in and getting my hopes up, that might work for you or you might need to find your own coping strategy.
One of those "friends" gradually turned into more and is the man I'm planning to be with for the foreseeable future so it does work!!

gothic_doll

Notjustsweet: The guy that inspired this is actually the first time I did the cutting ties, walk away thing. (and am delighted with myself as a result.)
He was the one going incredibly heavy the whole time, (even saying 'you're mine' before meeting, and 'you're set for life', none of which I took seriously.) whereas I just wanted to see if we got along and have a male friend +sex. After the meet I send a brief message referring to something I said, and get a message saying he's not looking for a relationship (when I am not either, and never mentioned the topic) and hope you are happy to keep chatting.
This, combined with a big delay in response compared to the absolute immediate responses before (hand glued to the phone, 100 messages a day at his provocation, I dislike chatting online especially instant messaging) immediately told me he planned on dragging out the attention as long as possible without giving back.

I wrapped it up within a day with how I directed the conversation :') Certainly a lot less painful than last time. Yes, I did myself out of maybe a couple more fun times, but I'd rather not spend time thinking about those kinda guys for months on end. (again.)

I really need to get better at choosing guys though.

Mr. Incognito

Even saying 'you're mine' before meeting, and 'you're set for life',

To be honest, if you cant recognise that sort of behaviour as unhealthy you need to stop blaming ALL men just because you date obvious crazies.

njs030

gothic_doll wrote: »

Notjustsweet: The guy that inspired this is actually the first time I did the cutting ties, walk away thing. (and am delighted with myself as a result.)
He was the one going incredibly heavy the whole time, (even saying 'you're mine' before meeting, and 'you're set for life', none of which I took seriously.)

Well anyone that says things like that have no intention of a relationship.
That's where you walk away- not after meeting and sex.

SarahMollie

miamee wrote: »

Anyone who is laying on the charms thick and heavy as soon as you get talking to them is to be avoided, OP. The charm serves a purpose and you have been happy and willing to fall for it so far. Maybe that suited you at the time, no judgement here, but what you are looking for appears to have changed but your method of selecting men to get to know has not.
The good and bad thing about online dating is the sheer amount of choice and you have chosen these men out of all others. Perhaps, if you want to start meeting men for something potentially more serious, you need to start filtering out the charmers and the ones who are full on from the start - those kinds of connections tend to burn bright but FAST.

Totally agree with this.

If you're reporting meeting the same type of man over and over, have you considered the possibility, that there is a characteristic inherent in this personality type that you're attracted to? Maybe you need to critically assess the last few "gents" to see what the common denominator is, and then make a conscious effort to avoid it.

I'd also say that men who come on strong at the start should be handled with caution. Some people are just all about the here and now, so (intentionally or otherwise) will talk about the future, make wild promises, but never really mean them. Best avoided.

Finally, I'd agree to an extent that Tinder is giving people (of both sexes) too much choice. If you're after something more serious, there are other dating sites that run on a bit of a slower pace.

FYI - I met my BF of 2.5 years on POF when I was 27 and like yourself, a bit jaded. Tinder wasnt really a thing then so I didnt have that option, but I'd still say POF is a better bet for a boyfriend rather than just a date.

SarahMollie

gothic_doll wrote: »

Notjustsweet: The guy that inspired this is actually the first time I did the cutting ties, walk away thing. (and am delighted with myself as a result.)
He was the one going incredibly heavy the whole time, (even saying 'you're mine' before meeting, and 'you're set for life', none of which I took seriously.) whereas I just wanted to see if we got along and have a male friend +sex. After the meet I send a brief message referring to something I said, and get a message saying he's not looking for a relationship (when I am not either, and never mentioned the topic) and hope you are happy to keep chatting.
This, combined with a big delay in response compared to the absolute immediate responses before (hand glued to the phone, 100 messages a day at his provocation, I dislike chatting online especially instant messaging) immediately told me he planned on dragging out the attention as long as possible without giving back.

I wrapped it up within a day with how I directed the conversation :') Certainly a lot less painful than last time. Yes, I did myself out of maybe a couple more fun times, but I'd rather not spend time thinking about those kinda guys for months on end. (again.)

I really need to get better at choosing guys though.

Gothic Doll - everything thats wrong is right here, you just cant see it for some reason.

When you spoke about this guy earlier, I'd got the impression that you'd been dating for a while and then he broke it off? Seems not to be so. You met up, had sex, and he then cooled and said he didn't want a relationship.

You point out that you also never said you wanted a relationship, but if its obvious to me that you do, I don't doubt he could sense it.

You also say you didn't believe him when he was saying the "you're mine" etc online, but part of me thinks you did, at least to some extent. Otherwise why did you skip straight ahead to sleeping with him? I think you felt as if you were already on a 5th date because you'd been messaging back and forth, and because you knew a bit about him, you felt more comfortable that perhaps was really justified.

In reality, you should always consider the first time you meet a person in real life as being at square one. Sounds to me like you skipped a few stages and were then surprised when that came back to bite you.

My one main bit of advice (without preaching) is never to sleep with a guy from online the first time unless you've both stated explicitly that you're both only in it for sex and no other reason. Otherwise you are leaving yourself wide open.

Would it really be so hard to wait for the 3rd, 4th 5th date to go there? There is no better filter for finding a guy who genuinely likes you and is not just after a quick jump.

gothic_doll

SarahMollie: Agree completely with what you've said in your posts, so thank you.

It was actually unfortunate- when we met he hugged me and was kissing me 5 mins in. I was very attracted to him, and there was no way I could have waited or held off for another date. So I don't regret what happened, I had a lot of fun. It was definitely not what I was looking for (actually I never sleep together on a first date) but it was very natural and comfortable. I didn't feel anything for him and would've liked to continue on a friends-with-benefits basis, but as you can see from what I posted we were singing off a different hymn sheet in that respect.

njs030

If all you want is no strings sex why does it matter how fast he replies to you?

SarahMollie

No worries Doll - we've all been in a place where we can't see the wood for the trees so hopefully getting an outside perspective helps

All you can do now is learn from the experience. You say you had fun so it obviously wasn't a total waste of time (woohoo!) but I'd imagine if you had this type of encounter once too often it would be a bit soul destroying.

I'd bet this lad has done the same thing to many, many girls, just recognise the game next time and run a mile. You probably only feel for it because he's so practiced at it at this point.

No issue with FWB either if you can manage it, but try and keep a bit more control next time. Setting expectations after the fact is always risky business. Any of my friends who've gone down this road have lived to regret it - people are complex, emotional creatures and sex (especially good sex) can be really emotive. Recipe for unrequited feelings and heartbreak.

Take it as a lesson learned

SarahMollie

No worries Doll - we've all been in a place where we can't see the wood for the trees so hopefully getting an outside perspective helps

All you can do now is learn from the experience. You say you had fun so it obviously wasn't a total waste of time (woohoo!) but I'd imagine if you had this type of encounter once too often it would be a bit soul destroying.

I'd bet this lad has done the same thing to many, many girls, just recognise the game next time and run a mile. You probably only feel for it because he's so practiced at it at this point.

No issue with FWB either if you can manage it, but try and keep a bit more control next time. Setting expectations after the fact is always risky business. Any of my friends who've gone down this road have lived to regret it - people are complex, emotional creatures and sex (especially good sex) can be really emotive. Recipe for unrequited feelings and heartbreak.

Take it as a lesson learned

Sometimes I think there should be a dedicated relationship forum on this place. There are many threads around saying more or less the same thing "why am I single". That answer lies with you. Misogyny is a hell of a word. Take a step back and think about how you really feel towards dating and men right now.

I could write a book on my experiences. For me it wasn't so much superficial charm I experienced but an over enthusiasm and excitement from men only for them to change their minds a few weeks later. It angers me because I don't want to be brought along with them in that state. It's simply not fair. It baffles me how a person can go from such apparent interest to nothing at all in the space of a few weeks.

You are frustrated and fed up. It is part of the human condition to want to share our lives with another person. Just take it easy OP. There are so many amazing men out there.

SarahMollie

Deleted User wrote: »

Sometimes I think there should be a dedicated relationship forum on this place. There are many threads around saying more or less the same thing "why am I single". That answer lies with you. Misogyny is a hell of a word. Take a step back and think about how you really feel towards dating and men right now.

I could write a book on my experiences. For me it wasn't so much superficial charm I experienced but an over enthusiasm and excitement from men only for them to change their minds a few weeks later. It angers me because I don't want to be brought along with them in that state. It's simply not fair. It baffles me how a person can go from such apparent interest to nothing at all in the space of a few weeks.

You are frustrated and fed up. It is part of the human condition to want to share our lives with another person. Just take it easy OP. There are so many amazing men out there.

Firstly, is this not the Relationships forum???

Anyhoo - the behaviour you describe isnt a super common personality trait, rather I suspect that its the same cohort of people doing it all the time, and thus lots of the rest of us have experienced it at some time or other.

Its not just limited to relationships, but also friendships too. I used to work with a girl who had a new BFF every few months (usually the new girl) and then dropped them for the next.

Some people are just like that unfortunately. Most ultimately grow out of it but some never will. You just have to learn to spot the signs and get out early. I know this is easier said than done, as someone being mad about you is terribly seductive, but if it seems too good to be true, then it probably is.

SarahMollie

SarahMollie wrote: »

Firstly, is this not the Relationships forum???

Anyhoo - the behaviour you describe isnt a super common personality trait, rather I suspect that its the same cohort of people doing it all the time, and thus lots of the rest of us have experienced it at some time or other.

Its not just limited to relationships, but also friendships too. I used to work with a girl who had a new BFF every few months (usually the new girl) and then dropped them for the next.

Some people are just like that unfortunately. Most ultimately grow out of it but some never will. You just have to learn to spot the signs and get out early. I know this is easier said than done, as someone being mad about you is terribly seductive, but if it seems too good to be true, then it probably is.

Yes some people are just like that.

Maybe I mean category then. My apologies.

manonboard

I think if you look in places where participants would be moving a way from these ego fulfilment behaviours, you might come across men who share similar values to the ones you describe above. Bhuddist related meet ups etc. I have many male n female friends in these sort of groups and I find one of the best parts to be your treated as a person rather than an object.
Mindfulness meets would be a good place. Also activity places of my types. Ppl go for hobbies so you know it's more likely they don't have an agenda.

SarahMollie

Deleted User wrote: »

Misogyny is a hell of a word. Take a step back and think about how you really feel towards dating and men right now.

Re Misogyny.....yes it is a hell of a word.

To be fair to the OP, the word actually has a really broad definition and includes the devaluation/commoditization of women and I would think that having sex with someone and treating them as disposable afterwards could be covered IMO.

I think what the OP was talking about was the idolization of the Geordie Shore lifestyle, all about "banging" nameless girls to make yourself seem like more of a man.

There are definitely men like this outside of the confines of MTV reality shows, but thankfully they tend to be younger and grow out of it eventually. There are plenty of good guys out there.

***And yes, women sometimes use men for sex too, I know.

Mr. Incognito

SarahMollie wrote: »

Re Misogyny.....yes it is a hell of a word.

To be fair to the OP, the word actually has a really broad definition and includes the devaluation/commoditization of women and I would think that having sex with someone and treating them as disposable afterwards could be covered IMO.

I think what the OP was talking about was the idolization of the Geordie Shore lifestyle, all about "banging" nameless girls to make yourself seem like more of a man.

There are definitely men like this outside of the confines of MTV reality shows, but thankfully they tend to be younger and grow out of it eventually. There are plenty of good guys out there.

***And yes, women sometimes use men for sex too, I know.

Misogny has a narrow definition. It's the HATRED of women.

There are plenty of more appropriate terms, promiscious, uncaring, flighty, shallow, disinterested, disengaged, disrespectful.

The OP uses the strongest possible language to feed her totally obscured view of herself and the men she is dating.

It's disrespectful and sexist to men, ALL men, and I hope the OP can read this and accept that. So far she is living in cloud la la land and only thanking posters that she sees as agreeing with her and discounting / ignoring everything else.

Whitewinged

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Misogny has a narrow definition. It's the HATRED of women.

There are plenty of more appropriate terms, promiscious, uncaring, flighty, shallow, disinterested, disengaged, disrespectful.

The OP uses the strongest possible language to feed her totally obscured view of herself and the men she is dating.

It's disrespectful and sexist to men, ALL men, and I hope the OP can read this and accept that. So far she is living in cloud la la land and only thanking posters that she sees as agreeing with her and discounting / ignoring everything else.

The OP was questioning her experience, asking if people had a similar experience and she also asked people to provide good experiences "to help regain (her) confidence" in dating.

She said she felt "dismissed" and "disposable" after a string of bad experiences that she had felt were going in a positive direction and she seemed to be finding it difficult to understand what went wrong. She also said in another post that she had left out some "important details to preserve anonymity" about some things that happened that she felt were disrespectful towards her.

If you read what she really is saying, you see that she said, "I'm at a bit of a loss now in terms of how to confidently move forward, so I'm kinda looking to hear there are guys out there who think in the long term". I don't believe that she is in "cloud la la" or that she was saying "ALL men" are misogynist. She just formed some incorrect conclusions based on her few bad experiences probably partially her fault also. Her op is looking and asking for people to prove those conclusions wrong and stir her in the right direction, that is why she is asking for advice.

I think she was just trying to find a way to understand her own experiences and why they are reoccurring. You said yourself there are "plenty of weirdos to filter out" and I'm with you on that meaning men and women. I think op might just be learning to "filter out" those people, that's all. She has acknowledged this and said that she is going to be a bit more careful with who she dates in the future.

RDM_83 again

gothic_doll wrote: »

So my question for you guys is- do you have any advice on avoiding misogynistic behaviour when dating? Do you have any happy tales to help me regain my confidence? Or experiences of similar to share with me? What is your opinion on the current scene/male attitude? Do you feel dismissed, or like a commodity?

Ok my two cents based on a fairly short but intense time being single. I can't comment on the finding a relationship part but I can give my two cents on some of the other things.

Yes there is probably a disposable thing going on, but as far as I can see the nature of the online/casual stuff means its abrupt endings are easy and there is always another option.
Your experiencing one facet of the disposable thing, you describe yourself as pretty attractive how many messages do you receive each day, how many chats have you ended abruptly because somebody said something off or stupid, its your right to do that and not judging you for it but I would hazard that any guy thats been on the online thing for more than a month would have had it happen many many times particularly because due to the way our society works with men making the approach if your a guy online to some extent a slightly scattergun approach is needed, its not excusing this behavior on the guys part but it does make it more understandable.

Secondly and sort of related to the above, there is a huge imbalance in the "market" between men looking for casual sex/FWB vs women which is weirdly enhanced online because people tend to state their intentions directly. If you meet somebody on a night out whatever happens happens and tends to occur more organically with less opportunity to present a false face IMO.
I was very up front about the fact I wasn't looking for seriousness when I was single and I found it fun and met some cool people I am still friends with after hooking up stopped, I kept rigidly to that policy and I am glad I did but what it did teach me was why a guy would be dishonest, simply put depending on the situation or person your with you may be much more likely to sleep with somebody if you present that your open to something more and as a way of holding to ones internal ethics I'm sure there is guys that even pretend to themselves they are open to something more.

I don't like the whole PUA thing because I think its a bit reductionist/dehumanizing to both men and woman but maybe you should read a little of that stuff because it sounds like you may be susceptible to things like escalation and false confidence (His hero is himself:they need a through up in the mouth smiley!).

There is lots of nice people out there even though I did meet some crazies and experience a decent bit of narcissism I would happyly have a pint with the majority of people I met while single.
I know a few that have had successful long term relationships, in general though it doesn't seem like Tinder is the way to go for that though (but I do know people in LTR from it too)

njs030

Whitewinged wrote: »

The OP was questioning her experience, asking if people had a similar experience and she also asked people to provide good experiences "to help regain (her) confidence" in dating.

She said she felt "dismissed" and "disposable" after a string of bad experiences that she had felt were going in a positive direction and she seemed to be finding it difficult to understand what went wrong. She also said in another post that she had left out some "important details to preserve anonymity" about some things that happened that she felt were disrespectful towards her.

If you read what she really is saying, you see that she said, "I'm at a bit of a loss now in terms of how to confidently move forward, so I'm kinda looking to hear there are guys out there who think in the long term". I don't believe that she is in "cloud la la" or that she was saying "ALL men" are misogynist. She just formed some incorrect conclusions based on her few bad experiences probably partially her fault also. Her op is looking and asking for people to prove those conclusions wrong and stir her in the right direction, that is why she is asking for advice.

I think she was just trying to find a way to understand her own experiences and why they are reoccurring. You said yourself there are "plenty of weirdos to filter out" and I'm with you on that meaning men and women. I think op might just be learning to "filter out" those people, that's all. She has acknowledged this and said that she is going to be a bit more careful with who she dates in the future.

A huge part of the ops problem is herself- she chooses these men, she accepts their behavior then complains when the drop her.

Plus she clearly doesn't know what she wants- if it's just sex why does she also want chats and texts and attention? And if it's a relationship why is she mis representing herself as wanting a fwb?
It sounds to me like op wants to have the best of both worlds which is fine....but she can't complain about others doing the same.

Also the previous poster was correct that the op is ignoring any comment that doesn't agree with her- I asked her why she's making a big deal about texts if she wants a no-strings fling and was ignored.
Every single one of ops posts depict her as the victim "within 5 mins he was kissing me and I couldn't wait for another date" or words to that effect. She's passing blame for her actions to someone else and only interested in replies that reinforce that. Unfortunately until she starts to accept her own responsibility (Including being honest about her intentions) the trend will continue.

Whitewinged

Yea I understand where your coming from notjustsweet and i agree but if previous events have reinforced the idea to her that men just want one thing and then disappear then maybe she is scared to say that she does want a long term relationship at the beginning (it seems that is what she is looking for) but she might feel that it comes across as too intense. Then as the interaction goes on and the guy is telling her things which imply that they are going to lead to something more serious, she could get caught up in that and then feel disheartened and let down. But yeah it is a vicious cycle with both parties contributing and op can only change her own approach.

silverharp

gothic_doll wrote: »

So this is on the topic of the dating scene in 2016 and is connected to several both long-running and short-term incidents that I've experienced. For background, I've dated on and off, mostly not serious for the last 5 years. I've had a few things that lasted a few months and a few occasional fwb as well. As for now, I've taken a couple years out recently, as I have other priorities, and also suspected that things have got worse in terms of the male attitude towards women, rather than better. Despite going to great efforts to avoid it, I was proven right last week by a charm-charm-charm-lies-drop incident. He even got annoyed (or denied it) when I made several predictive jokes as to the inevitable drop. I think he truly believes his own narrative, which make for the best liars of course...

My feeling is, women have become more 'disposable.'.
I'm an Irish/English girl who is slim, friendly and attractive (self-reported, haha) and 28. I love, admire and respect men and would love to have a guy as part of my life, as a friend & more. I don't have any commitments, demands, worries, pressures, problems etc that might cause a problem in this and am very easy-going and agreeable.

I'm at a bit of a loss in terms of how to confidently move forward, so I'm kinda looking to hear that there are guys out there who think in the long term, and don't consider women to be commodities. And think of us as equal human beings rather than prizes, or fantasy ideals.

.....

So my question for you guys is- do you have any advice on avoiding misogynistic behaviour when dating? Do you have any happy tales to help me regain my confidence? Or experiences of similar to share with me? What is your opinion on the current scene/male attitude? Do you feel dismissed, or like a commodity?

chances are you are looking in the wrong place or are making bad choices and selecting guys who are likely to be "players". if you are 28 I assume you are looking for guys that are 30ish. Most guys by 30 that are thinking long term are already in serious relationships so your pool of 30 year olds are going to be a mixed bag. So it is a bit unfair to label men in general as misogynists.

gothic_doll

Notjustsweet: I apologise for not replying, I didn't want to go over that again but I'll tell you the story about the chats. It's pretty embarrassing truth be told, hence holding back.

I dislike chatting online (I don't use Whatsapp or anything else, I don't have a FB app).

I kept the chat to the dating site for the first..oh god...904 messages. (yes, really, half each). One of the days I didn't reply from 10am-7pm and I come back and he's feeling sorry for himself, and calling it an 'unexplained silence.' I was trying to avoid chatting so much.

So I concede to chatting more often as it's what he wants.
He gets me to install Whatsapp and chats to me for 9-12 hours a day (this was last week), replying within minutes.
I uninstalled it after it went tits-up, and then reinstalled it, and I comes up 'restore backup?'. I tap yes. 965 messages, again half-half. So 1,869 messages all in, this was in the space of ten days.

After we meet, (great sex, cuddling in bed, I suggest leaving in the morning and try and make moves to leave earlier, and he puts his arms around me and keeps me in the bed)
At home I send him a brief message (nothing serious, just about something I said) and he doesn't reply for a few hours, comes back with some serious stuff about relationships, and then backs out of the conversation.

I'm happy to get one message a week from someone I know if I'm honest, frequency really doesn't bother me.
I was conceding to his (admittedly crazy) behaviour, and then the behaviour changed post-meet. I am a difficult woman to convince around- I guess he enjoyed the challenge.

Edited to add: I mean challenge in that I wasn't receptive to meet him until towards the end of the chats. Also judging someone for hopping into bed = nope. If I'm attracted to someone I'm not gonna push them away.

njs030

Do you really think you posed a challenge? You reciprocated 900+ messages in 10 days. Was kissing him within mins and happily hopped into bed with him on first meeting.

You're not a challenge op- it's really strange you would think you are tbh. It's almost painfully obvious that he was going to drop you-and it's not like it's the first time it's happened to you so why did you let it happen?

I'm really sorry and I hope you understand there's no malice intended but honestly your attitude and actions are totally in conflict with one another! I think you should think about spending some time alone and work out what you do want, there's nothing wrong with wanting a relationship and at your age it's not too hard to meet someone.

Next time if someone is bombarding you with texts and over the top attention just cut contact- and for god's sake don't sleep with him!

gothic_doll

notjustsweet wrote: »

.

Next time if someone is bombarding you with texts and over the top attention just cut contact- and for god's sake don't sleep with him!

Why not sleep with them? I had a great time. No regrets at all. I also really enjoyed the chatting.

I really don't want a relationship, so I'm not sure why you think I do notjustsweet. I predicted he was going to drop me so no need to point out how obvious it was (see my OP where I was joking about him doing so.)

My takeaway, and my reason for posting my OP, was that it was going to happen again, and I am looking for advice on how to avoid it. (Since I am patently bad at doing so.)

The good people of Boards have given some great advice and information in this thread, and I'll try to have my head screwed on a little tighter next time.

njs030

gothic_doll wrote: »

Why not sleep with them? I had a great time. No regrets at all. I also really enjoyed the chatting.

I really don't want a relationship, so I'm not sure why you think I do notjustsweet. I predicted he was going to drop me so no need to point out how obvious it was (see my OP where I was joking about him doing so.)

My takeaway, and my reason for posting my OP, was that it was going to happen again, and I am looking for advice on how to avoid it. (Since I am patently bad at doing so.)

The good people of Boards have given some great advice and information in this thread, and I'll try to have my head screwed on a little tighter next time.

I'm actually sitting here completely baffled by you at this stage op.
Don't sleep with him because you don't like being treated that way. By not sleeping with him you avoid this situation.

You knew he was going to drop you, yet you continued the same old behavior and now you're on boards asking how to avoid it.....but when you are told how to avoid it you disagree.

I'm out.

Penny Tration

gothic_doll wrote: »

Why not sleep with them? I had a great time. No regrets at all. I also really enjoyed the chatting.

I really don't want a relationship, so I'm not sure why you think I do notjustsweet. I predicted he was going to drop me so no need to point out how obvious it was (see my OP where I was joking about him doing so.)

My takeaway, and my reason for posting my OP, was that it was going to happen again, and I am looking for advice on how to avoid it. (Since I am patently bad at doing so).

What advice are you looking for?

You enjoyed casual sex and you don't want a relationship. But you're asking for advice because you got exactly what you wanted - casual sex and no relationship?

I fail to see the problem.

Also, given how disdainful of men having casual sex you appear to be, have you considered that maybe they are misogynistic but you may be misandric?

gothic_doll

Penny Tration: Aha..

Well, reading my posts above back to myself, my problems are thus:

1. Choosing unsuitable guys, thinking I can change them somehow.
2. Not being able to resist the sex/attention, even though I've seen it all before.
3. Believing what they say, even though I've heard it before.
4. Probably also a pushover (the idea of saying no wouldn't cross my mind.)

I generally don't enjoy casual sex, (there's an element of the unknown which is unsettling for me, plus sexual health is important for me) it's more I keep getting 'tricked' by all the points above, due to my own previous inability to spot what other posters have pointed out are obvious warning signs...

What I would like is a FWB/ long-term casual situation for now.
As I wrote in my OP, I've done this before, and I was very happy with it.
My issue was I was seeking a long-term casual thing with guys who were obviously only seeking short -term casual. It seemed like an easy progression to me, but I realise now I was never going to convince that kind of man to change.
And of course they are experts at convincing girls around, regardless of our instincts and gut feelings...

However, I've now changed my dating profile to say (in some detail) that I would like a long-term casual thing, and the responses are good so far. Honesty begets honesty perhaps.

Everything posted so far has been an immense help, so thank you to everyone.
And I hope it helps anyone going through similar.

From my OP:

gothic_doll wrote: »

So this is on the topic of the dating scene in 2016 and is connected to several both long-running and short-term incidents that I've experienced.


I've had a few things that lasted a few months and a few occasional fwb as well.


I love, admire and respect men and would love to have a guy as part of my life, as a friend & more. I don't have any commitments, demands, worries, pressures, problems etc that might cause a problem in this and am very easy-going and agreeable.

There have been other occasions where it was casual, fun, and nobody was messed with or lied to, but of course the negative experiences are the ones that get you thinking.

The Young Wan

I mur agree with OP in one instance, and it is that guys have come to associate online dating with "well, you're ok, but you're not perfect, and I can now literally fond thousands of people who are in seconds."

I shall explain. Last year I'd been seeing someone for a few weeks. One day he text me completely out of the blue "I don't think we should see each other anymore. Sometimes you eat and grind your jaw, and you know when you notice something and you can't stop?" He was having none of it.

gothic_doll

The Young Wan wrote: »

I mur agree with OP in one instance, and it is that guys have come to associate online dating with "well, you're ok, but you're not perfect, and I can now literally fond thousands of people who are in seconds."

I shall explain. Last year I'd been seeing someone for a few weeks. One day he text me completely out of the blue "I don't think we should see each other anymore. Sometimes you eat and grind your jaw, and you know when you notice something and you can't stop?" He was having none of it.

That is a ridiculous excuse alright. Especially in such early stages. I never thought I'd get a complaint that 'he didn't want to be double the size of anyone' in my life, but it happened (I'm 5'7, 8.5 stone, him 6ft and around 15 st I think)

The funny side for me at least, when they come out with excuses like your one (or mine), you know they don't have much to complain about...

I've only read the OP. I find this really interesting. I'm the same age as you. I've been with a few girls with your attitude. I can only speak about my personal experiences.

They have an idea built up in their head of what a man should be. When I inevitably don't fit this mold and they find a moment where I slip up according to their expectations, they tar me with the misogyny brush, "All men at the same, you only want one thing". Its really common. You will find misogyny if that is what you are looking for.

I feel like I can't win. It's incredibly off-putting when a girl makes jokes about:

He even got annoyed (or denied it) when I made several predictive jokes as to the inevitable drop.

Why would you do this? This is so insulting. It shows you have no faith in him. You're telling him from the start that you don't trust him. You are literally pushing him away with stuff like this. This is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

So my question for you guys is- do you have any advice on avoiding misogynistic behaviour when dating?

Get the idea out of your head that it exists. Each relationship is completely different. All men are not the same. If you are looking for misogyny, you will find it.

Do I have any happy tales to help you regain your confidence?

I've had two long term relationships that I can fondly think back on. Not many happy tales from me recently unfortunately. I am stuck on the other side of the fence of all this. I would feign some confidence if you don't have it; insecurity is not attractive. Or give dating a miss for a while until you feel less jaded. I think we all get too contrary and picky as we get older. Try and keep an open mind.

Or experiences of similar to share with me?

I had one girl sleep with a friend of mine after a few months of seeing each other then blame it on me. It was my fault as I wasn't showing her enough affection in the traditional sense because I wasn't taking her out on enough dates. "What do you expect?", is what she said. She had a few man-hating friends that had bad experiences poisoning her mind leading to this attitude. I talked to her at length afterwards and she realised how ridiculous she was being. We still tried to make things work but I couldn't get over it unfortunately.

What is your opinion on the current scene/male attitude? Do you feel dismissed, or like a commodity?

I feel sickened that all these bad guys out their are ruining it for me, or that anything I do is down to this narrative that I hate all women.

I feel like I cannot give a girl compliments sometimes without its seeming like I'm only after one thing. If I want sex, I'm using her as a commodity. If I hold off, I'm spineless and too nice. You'd swear girls don't want sex either. This "guys are all the same" stuff is driving me up the wall. It's like I'm walking on a tight rope in between being too nice and being a pervert. It's difficult to get it right.

I, too, am fed up with a lot of things. You spend so much time getting to know someone and then you just aren't right for each other in the end. Its exhausting at times.

Try and remember relationships are a two way street. Your attitude is going to continue to ruin things for you imo.

CaraMay

Yeah I think it's important to be choosy. Too many people waste time wondering if they are into you when you should be spending time wondering if you are into them or if they are good enough for you. Simples.

Tigger99

Gothic girl your posts are confusing and contradictory.

What exactly do you mean by a long term casual thing?

gothic_doll

Partyjungle: Thank you for your very reasoned response from the male perspective.

As I worked through the thread, I realised a good 60% of the problem was me a) choosing the wrong guys b) missing obvious warning signs. I've never said 'misogyny' out loud to a guy- but thought it was a good simple thread title to explain what boards readers might find inside . I understand now what has been happening was a series of mistakes on both me and the guy's part (s)

To follow up from The Young Wan and Costosa, he said to me (online). 'You are a very attractive woman, funny, good company, but that doesn't matter we're perfect for each other.' (typo included, he meant 'mean'.)

The word perfect shouldn't even be in your vocabulary after one date Imo. And then went on to give the couple silly excuses. I think being open-minded and giving people a chance is completely vital, but people live fast these days, so it needs to be carefully done.

gothic_doll

Tigger99:

I would nearly link to my okc profile for you to see for yourself. My definition is something like( the short version anyway.)

-no talk of emotions/feelings/relationships
-no messing
-no daily chatting
-treat each other as friends, go out as friends occasionally
-meet up for nice sex and hang out
-keep doing this until one of you finds a proper partner/gets bored/emigrates

warpdrive

Was going to share these links for OP but honestly OP and her attitude confuses me...I'll link them anyway on the off chance someone else finds them interesting or useful.


http://www.thefemininewoman.com/2012/04/when-is-the-right-time-to-sleep-with-a-man/

http://www.thefemininewoman.com/2014/12/casual-sex-harmless/

gothic_doll wrote: »

Tigger99:

I would nearly link to my okc profile for you to see for yourself. My definition is something like( the short version anyway.)

-no talk of emotions/feelings/relationships
-no messing
-no daily chatting
-treat each other as friends, go out as friends occasionally
-meet up for nice sex and hang out
-keep doing this until one of you finds a proper partner/gets bored/emigrates

How long do you plan on being like this and doing this sort of thing? Because honestly, no offence meant here, you're 28 and you will eventually be past your prime and most men will already be in long term, committed relationships. I'm sure you've already noticed this anyway. Do you want to keep being like this for the rest of your life? It'll be harder and harder to find someone willing to commit to you as time goes on so you're really heading towards setting yourself up for a lonely road. Most women who carelessly engage in casual sex, thinking it's no big deal and wanting to be like their male counterparts (who are pathetic, by the way) don't consider these dangers.

Tigger99

Oh god that description of what you want makes you sound angry crazy and controlling. Christ if I saw a profile written like that I'd run a mile. And it sounds like you would have absolutely no respect for the other person. Your lack of self awareness is scary.

gothic_doll

Warpdrive: I love your username. Re: Past your prime- I'm from good stock, I look younger than I am, and look after my health, which seems to halt the ageing process somewhat. I did panic around 25 thinking I'd suddenly get old and haggard by 30, but it hasn't happened. My mother is very attractive for her age and gets hassled by men pretty often.

I'm not fussed about having children. If I met a guy I loved in the next ten years & want to make lil clones of him I would (I'd like a son in that case), but as it goes, having children is not in itself a goal for me..:D

So what I want now is as I said, this happy medium of casual long term stuff. If it makes me happy then it's the right thing to do.
I have other long-term goals with my career (which is quite niche) so setting that up is my priority right now. Once I'm settled in the career I can give dating some proper time and energy again. Though as partyjungle pointed out, it is exhausting.

gothic_doll

Tigger99: If you'd run a mile that's great, we wouldn't be a good match.
I've already got good responses (I wrote it up in a better way than those quick summations by the way.) and I know there are guys looking for the same.