Vegans who own carnivores

TG1

MileyReilly wrote: »

What do you think the consequences of not eating meat would be? For you a human.

The consequences for me were a diet induced medical condition which had to be managed through supplements. That was back when food was a way of surviving rather than something to be enjoyed and I knew less about nutrtion so it was not an unavoidable consequence for a human, I know that, but that's for an omnivore well able to manage the diet, which is why I never would have dreamed of forcing it on pets!

stillalive88

TG1 wrote: »

The consequences for me were a diet induced medical condition which had to be managed through supplements. That was back when food was a way of surviving rather than something to be enjoyed and I knew less about nutrtion so it was not an unavoidable consequence for a human, I know that, but that's for an omnivore well able to manage the diet, which is why I never would have dreamed of forcing it on pets!

I'm sorry to hear that. Any diet should be approached with some research but I am surprised you developed a medical condition. I have never encountered a case of this before in person nor online so far.
Could I ask what kind of diet it was exactly, or what medical condition if I may? And what pointed to the diet being the cause of it? Sometimes doctors have a tendency to immediately blame it on the diet and don't check for other factors, I have seen this before.

Was just talking the other day with another vegan that I didn't know had cats, found out she has 5, of which 4 vegan now, for 3 months.
They live in an apartment and have no access to hunting, so that's interesting. She can't convince the 5th cat as she's a very fat cat and very picky about food and just goes on hunger strike if anything in her routine is changed. The other cats enjoy the new food, but this one has to be fed meat as the hunger strikes, on a cat that is overweight, put her at medical risk (i believe it was something called fatty liver?). "Owner" simply prepares varied meals and adds a supplement for the key nutrients and keeps bloods and urines under constant check. She said she's going back to meat at the first sign of any tiny thing going wrong. But so far completely smooth sailing. Will keep you guys updated on progress in the next months

Replying again to others that said before that "a group of vegan having cats would prefer to hide the cats dying to support their own ideology", I really have to respond to this again just cause my response was only ironic and I didn't elaborate. The whole idea is to respect animals as individuals, giving them basically the same basic rights a human would normally have (freedom, nonviolence), so it would be of the worst level of spirit for us to just force our ideology on them. If it can be done ok, if it can't, we'll leave it. Any vegan cat owner having problems is going to report it and might I add, it would probably happen in a very alarmed and shocked tone. I know I'm not an "elected representant" for veganism but it's something intrinsic to the ideology and it's very easy to check on the truthfulness of this statement.

Senna

stillalive88 wrote: »

it would be of the worst level of spirit for us to just force our ideology on them

I know I'm only quoting a small bit of your text, but what you wrote here sums up everyone else's opinion, you can justify it anyway you want, but this is a pet forum where people have the best interest of the pet at heart, it's not vegan bashing for the sake of it, it's educated people (most more than me) who are able to draw conclusions from a wealth of personal experience, research and professional expertise on a topic that really isn't a gray area that needs huge amounts of new research.
Cats are by nature carnivorous, plant based diets are not natural, and as an animal owner, I wouldn't dream of experimenting on my pet, their life's are precious and even though maybe a different diet wouldn't kill it, I would worry every day that it's not getting what it needs to live the longest and happiest life possible.

Only last week I had to post on here after changing dog food and worrying that it might not be good enough for them.

MileyReilly

stillalive88 wrote: »

I have been vegetarian 3 years and vegan for 1.
Didn't switch before just because I never met any vegetarian before then and I was firmly convinced you couldn't survive without the meat. Then I met the first vegetarian on my path and switched in a week, never went back.

Consequences for now are better mood, leaner phisique, increase in strength, better sleep quality and increased memory (I used to forget everything) but I think that is just a consequence of better sleep.
During the switch to vegan my digestion was weird for a few weeks, then it went back to normal.
Also I discovered a lot of foods I didn't know existed and have a much more varied diet. I'm eating stuff that is sooo much tastier now, you'd never believe me. Oh and about the tofu, I never tried it.

That's great, I thought by "consequence" you meant that vegan would be oh so bad for a human. I'm 11 months vegan now, couldn't be happier. I don't know myself with weight loss, energy gain, better sleep, better memory, more money etc etc. Sold my car and now cycle everywhere (I live in a town and would drive to the shop across the road) . I could never go back 😊

TG1

stillalive88 wrote: »

I'm sorry to hear that. Any diet should be approached with some research but I am surprised you developed a medical condition. I have never encountered a case of this before in person nor online so far.
Could I ask what kind of diet it was exactly, or what medical condition if I may? And what pointed to the diet being the cause of it? Sometimes doctors have a tendency to immediately blame it on the diet and don't check for other factors, I have seen this before.

I developed anaemia and a vitamin D deficiancy, it was diet related, not vegetarian diet, but my specific diet because I didn't do enough research and lacked understanding before switching.

Which is why at this stage in the animal research the thought of forcing a diet on a pet gives me the shivers. I personally wouldn't do it.

I have nothing against vegitarians or vegans and at this stage in my life nearly am again, not through a conscious decision but through general eating habits. But I wouldn't force a diet I felt was poorly understood in animals on one of my pets.

hardCopy

Senna wrote: »

So the people who post on that Facebook page are vegan, they are proud of it and just a wild stab in the dark here but if one of their cats were sick or sick looking, do you think they would put up pictures of their sick vegan cat? Not a chance in hell.

Anybody posting pictures of a sick cat would probably be banned as a troll.

stillalive88

TG1 wrote: »

I developed anaemia and a vitamin D deficiancy, it was diet related, not vegetarian diet, but my specific diet because I didn't do enough research and lacked understanding before switching.

Which is why at this stage in the animal research the thought of forcing a diet on a pet gives me the shivers. I personally wouldn't do it.

I have nothing against vegitarians or vegans and at this stage in my life nearly am again, not through a conscious decision but through general eating habits. But I wouldn't force a diet I felt was poorly understood in animals on one of my pets.

Mmhh yes I understand you guys' position, I don't know what to say. I only know no animal was harmed and it never shall be and I truly believe it when I say that. Except that article on the kitten raised on a random diet of potatoes and rice, poor thing. I'm sure cats have died from malnutrition on canned food as well though.
But if we harmed animals, what vegans would we be? Some choose to try, others don't cause they think "it just cannot be done cause they're obligate carnivores". I wanted to be present in this topic to give a voice to those that actually did the switch and can document that a vegan diet for cats not only competes with commercial foods but in most cases yielded an increase in health.

Of course don't force it, if it doesn't work it doesn't work. But I also said before that canned food is already forcing your cat to a completely unnatural diet, doesn't matter if "it has meat". They wouldn't eat beef in nature, they wouldn't eat tuna and they wouldn't eat cereal so there is nothing more natural in the canned food diet than in the vegan one. So that's the only point I can do about that argumentation there.

@hardCopy you are painting vegans as fundamentalist extremists, which is not what we are. Vegan is a peaceful movement that is about not doing violence on any animal or human. Is total pacifism, it's the least extremists, most tolerant and humane movement that was ever thought of at its core. Respect to all creatures. Can you get any more tolerant than that? And they paint us as "militarist" ):

muddypaws

stillalive88 wrote: »

Mmhh yes I understand you guys' position, I don't know what to say. I only know no animal was harmed and it never shall be and I truly believe it when I say that. Except that article on the kitten raised on a random diet of potatoes and rice, poor thing. I'm sure cats have died from malnutrition on canned food as well though.
But if we harmed animals, what vegans would we be? Some choose to try, others don't cause they think "it just cannot be done cause they're obligate carnivores". I wanted to be present in this topic to give a voice to those that actually did the switch and can document that a vegan diet for cats not only competes with commercial foods but in most cases yielded an increase in health.

Of course don't force it, if it doesn't work it doesn't work. But I also said before that canned food is already forcing your cat to a completely unnatural diet, doesn't matter if "it has meat". They wouldn't eat beef in nature, they wouldn't eat tuna and they wouldn't eat cereal so there is nothing more natural in the canned food diet than in the vegan one. So that's the only point I can do about that argumentation there.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with commercial cat food, but pouches have been more popular than canned food for a while now, yet you seem to think it is only canned food that people use. Dry, complete food also sells better than cans. Raw feeding is also increasing within the cat owning population.

ganmo

stillalive88 wrote: »

@hardCopy you are painting vegans as fundamentalist extremists, which is not what we are. Vegan is a peaceful movement that is about not doing violence on any animal or human. Is total pacifism, it's the least extremists, most tolerant and humane movement that was ever thought of at its core. Respect to all creatures. Can you get any more tolerant than that? And they paint us as "militarist" ):

I think you're a bit generalising there too. I know most vegans are nice and grand but there are individuals that have been described to me as militant vegans.

stillalive88

The relevant question is not whether all of the diet can be of non-animal origin but rather whether any can be. Either your cat's GI tract and associated organs can digest, absorb, and utilize nutrients of non-animal origin or it cannot. As Antares points out, traditional kibble including veterinary mainstays such as Hill's foods contain significant volume by weight of non-animal fat, carb, and protein nutrient sources. These components are not fillers. They are there because plant-based nutrients, properly processed, are excellent nutrient sources for cats. My non-vegan Dr. (DVM) surprised a client recently who had switched to a no-grain dog food by telling that as it appears in kibble form, corn is a *more* digestible nutrient than beef and chicken.

Just an interesting extract randomly found on the group today, about the corn thing... I'll have to look it up again. It's nice to get to know these things.

I have never met anyone giving pets anything else than canned food, and I don't know militant vegans except for a youtuber, also @Ganmo I was replying to the generalisation that "ANYONE posting pictures of a sick cat would probably be banned as a troll".

It is common though that, by living in a world so devoid of empathy towards animals, "newborn" vegans can feel angry, disappointed, let down by the world around them. Even more so when, after they looked into slaughterhouses and the actual farming process, people respond them "Mmmm bacon" or "a cow would gladly eat you, you know". I can understand how some can become angry and then be perceived as "militarist". It is like trying to stop someone who is beating a dog in the middle of the street and being told off by everyone else in the same street because you weren't friendly enough in your request. Makes your brain explode. It takes real balls to be a peaceful vegan in front of most of the responses we get, and I really respect all the other vegans I met because they are like that.

I used to be way worse but am improved considerably. Still a way to go. I see that keeping positive is always so much better.

My wife is vegan and a vetinary nurse.

We run a small cat rescue and also currently have rescued dogs, snakes and chickens within our household.

Cats are pure carnivores you cannot feed them a vegan or vegetarian diet. There are some companies promoting such diets with syntetic supliments added, but the limited research shows that within Y packets of such food, X packets do not have the required levels of the supliments for the cat's health to be maintained.

Studies are limited because the small size of the companies producing these foods, so the only option would be to actually experiment on your cat by buying such foods, which as a vegan is not something she would condone or consider.
Basically it would be like feeding steak to a horse or cow and we all know what happens when this is done.

Dogs on the other hand can have a vegetarian diet and such foods are readily available if a little expensive, with the cost being prohibitive for most if not all small rescues.

Does she feel bad feeding meat or meat based dry food to the cats, yes and no. Obviously she is completely against animal suffering, but given that most pet food is a by product of human food preparation and the dietary requirements of felines there is no alternative.
It's the same when it comes to feeding our snakes there is no alternative but to feed them mice or rats bought frozen from a pet store, the real solution in this case would be to ban the sale of exotic pets such as snakes and reptiles in Ireland.

You will always get extremist views in this or any other subject, and not everyone who claims to work in animal rescue are doing so for the best of the animals in question, some jest do it for the glory, with the large state funded rescues being the worst, but most people are in our experience trying to do their best. But to my wife's mind if you love animals and share your home with them they must be fed the correct diet, otherwise you are harming the animal out of stupidity or a false sense of righteousness.

muddypaws

stillalive88 wrote: »

I have never met anyone giving pets anything else than canned food, and I don't know militant vegans except for a youtuber, also @Ganmo I was replying to the generalisation that "ANYONE posting pictures of a sick cat would probably be banned as a troll".

This is the whole problem, you are basing your argument on what you or some random facebookers know, what you/they have seen, rather than on evidence. You don't have to go to a pet shop if that would be distressing for you, just look in the pet food aisle of a supermarket at all of the pouches/trays and bags of dry food available. Do you live in Ireland? Because if you do, you have met plenty of people who feed their pets other than canned food, maybe you haven't asked them what they feed, but to say "I have never met anyone" is wrong.

TG1

I currently own a horse. I feed the horse a grain and roughage diet, all plant based.

She would not be eating that exact diet "in the wild", she wouldn't have access to oats/barley and proccessing the grain aids digestion, she couldn't eat barley without it being rolled/crushed/bruised. But it is still adhering to the fundamentals of her natural diet.

I wouldn't dream of changing the fundamentals of her diet because I don't think her digestive system has evolved to cope. I would never feed the horse a burger, and hope no one on here would try, so why would you try to feed a cat a vegitarian diet? That's my objection, that it goes against what the animal has evolved to eat.

stillalive88

muddypaws wrote: »

This is the whole problem, you are basing your argument on what you or some random facebookers know, what you/they have seen, rather than on evidence. You don't have to go to a pet shop if that would be distressing for you, just look in the pet food aisle of a supermarket at all of the pouches/trays and bags of dry food available. Do you live in Ireland? Because if you do, you have met plenty of people who feed their pets other than canned food, maybe you haven't asked them what they feed, but to say "I have never met anyone" is wrong.

I really keep not understanding this argument that a cat, since the "owner" is on facebook, ceases to be a real cat therefore the proof is not proof and all cats will die in the exact instant they touch a broccoli.

All the objections so far have only been based on the facts that:
- It is obvious and unnatural
- Obligate carnivore, which is basically saying that the demonstration that an animal is an obligate carnivore is saying so.
- Research (3 papers from 5-10 years ago with an approximate total sample of 40 cats, fed on piss poor diets, with 2 other "counter"-papers saying that it can be done no problem, that's all we have to work on)

The cats are there, they are alive and they are healthy, which means the "obligate carnivore" concept is no more than an old stereotype and fruit of the old school research which is non existant.

Otherwise how would they survive at all? If the obligate carnivore theory was true that would mean a vegan cat would be dead in 1 or 2 days. The time to exhaust all the nutrients from the meat. We know it's not the case so let's please drop this false idea?

YES I know there are vegans which do not want to try the vegan diet on their companions or sheltered pets and I'll say it again that I understand. But stop saying "it's impossible" when it is proven that it is possible. "But there are no scientific papers" - does that change things in any way beside proving the ignorance of the scientific community on this matter at the current moment? Because they will eventually get on it.

The reality of it is that it's extremely possible and it might lead to problems in some case so one should stay careful. The obligate carnivore doesn't hold up anymore.

I live in Ireland and previously was in another country. I have never met anyone giving pets anything different than canned food and I just stated my personal experience as it is. I know somebody that MIXES and sometimes gives "real food", now and than, but that's it. In any case you miss the point, WHATEVER you give the cat, you are bringing out of its natural order of hunting. That was always my point. The moment man is in the picture, the diet will be artificial. So might as well make it a cruelty free one, if one wishes so.


@TG1: What if I told you that the health of an animal on a certain diet is proof that the diet IS indeed covering the fundamentals? Wouldn't that be true?

@DubinMeath: Your wife seems like the prime example of somebody that should check out the group and ask a few questions. No harm can come out of it.

@DubinMeath

@DubinMeath: Your wife seems like the prime example of somebody that should check out the group and ask a few questions. No harm can come out of it.[/QUOTE]

She's done just that and also done extensive research into it. Because if there was a way she would do it.

Facebook groups and boards etc are not scientific research. The cat may appear healthy but be have dietary deficiencies that in the long term result in health problems, not something she is willing to test personally.

stillalive88

Yes but scientific research isn't there and we care so we need to do something. Not said as an imperative but just as how I and others feel.
Are you saying she must have done so or are you saying she might? Would be useful to hear her opinion on this. So far all the opinions of people that said "it can't be done" were of people that didn't try, so that doesn't count for much to me, especially when the people that tried were more "well, this seems to work quite well actually". I'm keeping an eye out for everyone mentions a roadblock in the gruop but it seems most of the time the just rearrange the diet according to each individual cat and it starts to work. Intruiguing anyway.

I have found a couple debates with different vets arguing pro and against this. One said she had never seen a healthy vegan cat, other two said they were healthier than normal. It's clear that even vets are split on this, while unfortunately the research just isn't there.

TG1

stillalive88 wrote: »

@TG1: What if I told you that the health of an animal on a certain diet is proof that the diet IS indeed covering the fundamentals? Wouldn't that be true?

It's kind of like saying look at my granny, she's 104 and smokes 20 a day and drinks 5 whiskey sours before going to bed so clearly we should all do that.

I know cigarettes and whiskey are not good for me so I'm not going to take one anecdotel case as the absoloute truth. I'll rely on the research that shows increased risk of cancer and liver disease.

Likewise I'll rely on the years of research that have gone into providing food that is providing my pets with what is currently believed to be the optimum diet for them.

stillalive88

stillalive88 wrote: »

Yes but scientific research isn't there and we care so we need to do something. Not said as an imperative but just as how I and others feel.
Are you saying she must have done so or are you saying she might? Would be useful to hear her opinion on this. So far all the opinions of people that said "it can't be done" were of people that didn't try, so that doesn't count for much to me, especially when the people that tried were more "well, this seems to work quite well actually". I'm keeping an eye out for everyone mentions a roadblock in the gruop but it seems most of the time the just rearrange the diet according to each individual cat and it starts to work. Intruiguing anyway.

I have found a couple debates with different vets arguing pro and against this. One said she had never seen a healthy vegan cat, other two said they were healthier than normal. It's clear that even vets are split on this, while unfortunately the research just isn't there.

We seriously looked into this due to both an ethical and financial view point, given we have 50 plus cats (some strays who feed at ours being the plus)

There has been research into this type of food which found it to be harmful due to a lack key nutrients and some in the US was found to be produced by some very shady characters.

If it were possible the larger food producers would jump on it as it would be more profitable to manufacture.

Given that humans and dogs are omnivores and the scientific research has been conducted we've no problems feeding a mainly vegitarian based diet to our four dogs one of whom is a 17 year old jack russell. But given cats are complete carnivors a vegitarian or vegan diet is not something which we would be willing to use them as a experiment base, given some of them are well into their 20's.

There are times when additional research is needed for example one of our cats has epilepsy and the vetinary licensed drug in Ireland was affecting his liver a known potential side affect and we were faced with the prospect of losing him.
My wife researched and found that Keppra had been used by some owners in the US, to treat their cats without the side affects to the liver and found some scientific research papers to show this also.

We took these to our vet and after his own research he agreed it should be tried. It's worked wonderfully for the last ten years, there maybe other side affects that may affect his longer term health but we don't know because the research isn't there.

The difference is that we would have lost him if we didn't do this experiment and kept him on the licenced drug, but we're not willing to experiment when the research shows such a diet doesn't work and there is only anecdotal evidence to say it is a complete healty diet

Now I'm not saying your right or wrong it's your cat and it's your decision and you have your animals interests at heart, but could you tell me what your vet said to you in relation to this diet when you discussed it with them?

muddypaws

stillalive88 wrote: »

I live in Ireland and previously was in another country. I have never met anyone giving pets anything different than canned food and I just stated my personal experience as it is. I know somebody that MIXES and sometimes gives "real food", now and than, but that's it. In any case you miss the point, WHATEVER you give the cat, you are bringing out of its natural order of hunting. That was always my point. The moment man is in the picture, the diet will be artificial. So might as well make it a cruelty free one, if one wishes so.

No, you are missing the point completely. You are saying that you have never met anyone giving pets anything different than canned food. Now unless you never leave your house, and never interact with anyone else, you cannot know that is true, but I can guarantee that its not. How do you know that the person who served you in a shop doesn't own a cat, and feeds it pouches? And that is what you are saying in this argument. Unless you truly do ask every single person that you meet "do you own a pet. What do you feed it". Is that what you are saying? You are not proving anything. Saying that you know something, and that some people on a FB group know something is pointless as an argument amongst grown ups.

Senna

This thread is all about cat owners who are vegans and vegans who are cat owners. There's a bit difference.

Senna

Senna wrote: »

This thread is all about cat owners who are vegans and vegans who are cat owners. There's a bit difference.

It's the cats that own us not the other way round :-)

We haven't had a holiday in ten years since we took in our epileptic guy. I even had to come home on the night of our wedding to give him his meds.

boomerang

stillalive88 wrote: »

I wanted to be present in this topic to give a voice to those that actually did the switch and can document that a vegan diet for cats not only competes with commercial foods but in most cases yielded an increase in health.

Other than the claims of the vegan pet food companies and anecdotal evidence from those who feed their cats a vegan diet, there is no credible evidence for this, anywhere. I've looked.

boomerang

stillalive88 wrote: »

It is common though that, by living in a world so devoid of empathy towards animals, "newborn" vegans can feel angry, disappointed, let down by the world around them.

Part of the problem is the propaganda put out by the likes of PETA and VIVA and taken as fact by the newly-vegan. Absolutely animals do suffer in the commercial food chain. But rather than rely on science-based evidence, these vegan organisations appeal to the nightmare emotions of naive people who have never stood foot on a farm or in a slaughterhouse so they're easily hoodwinked. Vegan organisations make claims for animal behaviour and against the food industry that aren't just wrong - they're outright ridiculous. That's why I think veganism as an ideology unfortunately has no credibility.

Cherry Blossom

Actually boomerang, shortly after my vegetarianism didn't work out I got an admin job in a meat factory for three months as I wanted to know more about where my food comes from. I grew up on a farm where we had beef cattle so I never had any issue with how Irish meat lives out it's life prior to slaughter as I saw it first hand. As for slaughter itself, while I am sure death is painful, our food gets a much less painful and much quicker end than any of us will ever have.

I don't understand this business at all of vegans allowing their cats to hunt. Cat's are ruthless, cruel hunters that slowly torture their prey to death. My dogs have killed rodents on occasion but at least with a dog the end is quick.

boomerang

boomerang wrote: »

Part of the problem is the propaganda put out by the likes of PETA and VIVA and taken as fact by the newly-vegan. Absolutely animals do suffer in the commercial food chain. But rather than rely on science-based evidence, these vegan organisations appeal to the nightmare emotions of naive people who have never stood foot on a farm or in a slaughterhouse so they're easily hoodwinked. Vegan organisations make claims for animal behaviour and against the food industry that aren't just wrong - they're outright ridiculous. That's why I think veganism as an ideology unfortunately has no credibility.

Members of the public cannot gain access to a slaughter house, some would argue that it's because if they did everyone would be vegetarian/vegan, but they can see videos online and make their own minds up.

PETA are US based where welfare conditions and food standards are lower than Ireland and most people in animal rescue can't stand PETA. What some organisations and people spout online shouldn't be taken as Vegan ideology as there actually is no vegan ideology. Veganis a diet and it could be argued a lifestyle for some. It's just most vegans tend to be animal lovers and become vegan because of this. This is not to say they love their animals more than some one who isn't vegan that's just stupidity.

Beyonce for example is now portrayed as a vegan, but in no way follows what you would call its ideology due to her support/use of real fur etc.

Real animal lovers be they vegan, vegetarian or traditional meat eaters accept their animals for who they are and wouldn't introduce a diet that could harm their animals.

boomerang

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

As for slaughter itself, while I am sure death is painful, our food gets a much less painful and much quicker end than any of us will ever have.

While the end is humane AJ, there are aspects of the husbandry that upset me and are part of the reason I don't eat meat or dairy. I'm sure you're more than aware of them -

• Veal calves sent to Holland and Italy at a very young and vulnerable age
• Ailments such as tumours, abscesses sometimes going untreated
• Scour in newborn calves, salmonellosis, red water...
• Winter confinement causing minor conditions such as lice and pinkeye
• Chronic mastitis and lameness in dairy cows
• Downer cows being left too long before being euthanised
• Cows being sometimes painfully jacked while calving
• Calving cows in difficulty been made to wait too long for a caesarian
• Older calves being castrated
  

It goes on and I saw all of these things while on large animal rotation. Also sheep faming, pig farming, intensive chicken farms come with their own intrinsic suffering, no matter how good the husbandry. For me that's reason enough for veganism. But when you claim things like newborn calves scream for their mothers when separated within 24 hours of birth, you've lost me. There's no need for the propaganda. The facts speak for themselves.

adrenalinjunkie

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

I don't understand this business at all of vegans allowing their cats to hunt. Cat's are ruthless, cruel hunters that slowly torture their prey to death. My dogs have killed rodents on occasion but at least with a dog the end is quick.

Cats are hunters, but in no way cruel hunters, while we don't like it it's part of their make up.

Dogs have been domesticated longer than cats and retain less of their wild characteristics and normally stop playing with food after puppy hood. But my dad has seen his dogs play with rats as cats do.

Most cats that play with prey are in our experience

1 those taken to young from their mothers who would teach them to kill their prey quickly. Belive me a cat that plays with a full grown rat will require a trip to the vet.

2. Well fed house cats as they still retain their chase and catch instinct and continue as they aren't hungry. Feral cats in our experience never do this as they don't know when their next meal will be caught and hunting requires energy.

For me that's reason enough for veganism. But when you claim things like newborn calves scream for their mothers when separated within 24 hours of birth, you've lost me. There's no need for the propaganda. The facts speak for themselves.[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately they do and the mothers continue to call for their calves.

Cherry Blossom

I must admit that I have no experience with dairy cattle or any cattle giving birth. My dad only ever bought young bullocks for fattening and then sold them on. They were well looked after for the duration they where here but maybe all farmers don't do things as well. My dad stopped the cattle when I was about 13 or 14 due to his health and them being too labour intensive.

My granny kept a few chickens in a large barn but they were only kept for eggs. I only buy free range chicken or eggs myself, I don't eat pork at all and only occasionally eat beef. 90% of the protein I eat comes from fish though. I wish I could try a veggie diet again but I'm allergic to maize and I don't like tofu which makes it extremely difficult to eat a complete meat free diet.

boomerang

Unfortunately they do and the mothers continue to call for their calves.

There's calling, and then there's "screaming." That's deliberately emotional language, IMO and it's un-necessary. Likewise people saying that animals raised for meat are "tortured."