Moving back to Ireland - Genius or Eejit?

ubermick

So like many in the mid 90s, I took a look around and saw a land of little hope and few opportunities. My parents had just died, I was single and unemployed, so I decided to take the leap and head to America. Lived in Washington DC for a good while, met the woman who'd become my wife, and moved to her patch, San Francisco(ish) and have been here ever since.

The past 20 years, America's been good to me. My wife is amazing, and I love her to bits. I've a great job (which never seemed on the cards at home) making not outrageous but good money, a nice house, a nice car, the motorbike I always wanted, blah blah. Bars and restaurants as far as the eye can see, and a fantastic social life.

But it all went wobbly last year when we had our daughter. Suddenly all the things that used to matter - the cars and toys, the nightlife, and all that - mattered a whole lot less. And the things that didn't bother me, or I willfully turned a blind eye to - onscene healthcare system, cost of college, idiots with guns and all that - became important.

Her mam and dad are here, as well as her brother, but they're feck all help with the baby. (Her parents made it fairly clear that while they're happy to spoil our daughter rotten with presents, and play with her when they've the time to visit, they're not available for babysitting, and any time she needs a nappy changed or starts crying, she's handed right back. Meanwhile her brother and his lot probably haven't realised we've a kid yet). We go back once a year in the Autumn usually, and the wife loves it there - my lot love her to bits (as mentioned, my mam and dad passed years ago, but still have siblings and loads of nieces and nephews). Went back with the baby for her naming ceremony in September, and of course she was welcomed with open arms as well, and I had sister in laws and nieces almost fighting to see who could babysit so we could have a few nights to herself. (Her mam and her brother came over with us, never once offered.)

So now I'm back in the States, and feeling the pull home. Every time I turn on the news, there's another massacre at a school. Or a child snatched off the street. Or a random shooting where a passerby was hit. Drugs are rampant here, and not the occasional spliff. Especially here in the affluent Bay Area, kids are happily swiping their parents Oxycontin, passing them around like sweets. Kids in schools here are straight out of the films, going to school with designer clothes and Prada handbags. All the while a ballsack of a reality star is leading the polls to be the next president. Kids are finishing college with tens of thousands (or more) of student loan debt.

Can't say as I want ANY of that for my daughter.

Now I know I'm suffering from grass is always greener syndrome. I'm not kidding myself into thinking that Ireland is some utopia where all of these things won't exist. But feck sake, they have to be better than this alternative. I've spoken to my friends and family about this, and they're not much help, being a bit biased. "Ah yeah, Ireland's a bit mad, but nowhere near as mad as over there, come back sure you'll be grand." (would probably change their tunes once they've been around me more than a holiday, though!) I posed the question on another message board I'm a part of, and even the majority of Americans say that the country here is circling the drain, and I should get out while I can.

But what do ye - Irish people I'm not related to or friends with - think? Am I mad to be thinking this way? Would I just be swapping one set of potential problems for another set I'm not thinking of? Citizenship wouldn't be an issue since myself and the daughter already are, and the consulate assures me it'd be just a formality for my wife. We'd be coming back with a reasonable chunk, as we'd stand to do well on the sale of our place here. Thing that worries me would be work, but there's a more than good chance of being able to keep my job here and work from home, since I already work from home 3 time zones away. (Would have to switch to being a contractor or something), and the pay there is very good.

retalivity

I lived in canada for a few yrs and moved back to ireland 2.5 yrs ago, i had enough of that side of the atlantic and decided i would never stay there and raise a family.

Its fine here... dublin can be expensive (maybe not relative to san fran), if you can telework then you could practically live wherever you want in the country. College is not free but certainly not as expensive as the states, ditto healthcare. Look into what kind of life (urban, rural),amenities, activities you and your family want before deciding to go... while the wife enjoys visiting, living here and day to day activity is very differen - my wife had issue s with this, and nearly 3 years on still hasnt really settled.

ubermick

retalivity wrote: »

Look into what kind of life (urban, rural),amenities, activities you and your family want before deciding to go... while the wife enjoys visiting, living here and day to day activity is very differen - my wife had issue s with this, and nearly 3 years on still hasnt really settled.

Cheers for that, retalvity. Have to admit, my wife settling is the thing that worries me the most. She's lived abroad before, spent a year each during college year in Madrid and Perugia, as well as some time in Chile, but it's one thing when you're in your early 20s and in Uni, another altogether when you're a mother and living your life. She's not your typical Yank, but the issue's definitely in the back of my mind. Are there things in particular your wife is struggling to get used to?

Wouldn't do Dublin, and we like the idea of the country, but not the *country* country. We'd be going back to Cork, so likely close enough to the city that it's accessible, but not so far out we'd be tempted to invest in a tractor. She has a thing for Blarney, although I think I'd blow my brains out after a few months of dealing with busloads of American tourists, hah.

Work is the wild card - I already telework, since the office is in DC and I'm in SF, so had somewhat assumed it wouldn't be an issue me doing my job from 3,000 miles east as opposed to 3,000 miles west. Her initial reaction was no, but after a talk she softened a bit. Sent her a proposal last week in an effort to ease her concerns (she's worried about the time difference as well as the cost of me coming into the office 1-2 times a year) and promised to read it with an open mind. I think we're at the point that if work says ok, we'd do it but...

I dunno.

We already talk like our minds are made up, and we're going next year, decision made. But there's still a little voice telling me I'm absolutely MAD to give up a life in sunny California, where we have more or less everything going for us, and rolling the dice on a move back.

bee06

Is moving back for a trial period an option? Could you rent out the house in California and rent in Cork for maybe 6 months and at least if you both think its not for you, you still have the option to go back.

ubermick

Not a chance on that unfortunately. Housing prices around here are what most people would refer to as "@#$@# WHAT?!?!?!?" If we were to rent the place out, we'd be barely able to get enough to cover the cost of our mortgage, and our property taxes here are almost $1,000... a month. So we'd be losing money hand over fist - and would need to sell up here in order to be able to afford a down payment on a house there anyways.

Ursus Horribilis

If you come to realise that Ireland's not the solution, would you be prepared to move to somewhere else in the USA?

Merkin

I don't think anyone can definitively tell you what will be best for you or how to really assuage your fears, there are so many what ifs.

I've lived all over the place and after having our child we decided to relocate back to Ireland. I'm family oriented and I wanted baby Merkin to grow up close to family and my husband was offered a directorship with a great company so we struck lucky. In some respects we had a better quality of life before and I'd certainly say it took some resettling (and I never thought I'd say that about Dublin) but it has been a great decision and it's good to be home. My husband is British and it took him a little longer (he's really outdoorsy and loves surfing and sailing and fishing so the sea is not as accessible as it was where we lived) but we made the decision jointly and are really glad we did. It's so nice to have that familial support.

You BOTH have to be on the same page if you do decide to go and settling in to a new life, in a new place (because it's a completely different Ireland to the one you left) does take time. I would however try and get a job in situ in Ireland simply because having one foot in both places could impede on you settling in fully.

If I were you I'd get down to brass tacks and write out a really comprehensive pros and cons list.

ubermick

Odus fell down wrote: »

If you come to realise that Ireland's not the solution, would you be prepared to move to somewhere else in the USA?

Dunno. I've lived in the midwest, the east coast, and the west coast, and have to say here is the best by far. The weather is perfect 9 months out of the year, but it's massively expensive. My issues though are with America as a whole, not the Bay Area.

Merkin wrote: »

If I were you I'd get down to brass tacks and write out a really comprehensive pros and cons list.

A few months ago we sat down to do a pros and cons list, and here are the reasons we're thinking of moving:

- Support network. Right now, the only people here we can rely on are my wife's parents. Given their own situation, they're unable to pitch in with giving us time to ourselves, and are only able to see her as their schedule and situation allows. Meanwhile in Ireland, my daughter would have a ton of cousins, aunts and uncles, as well as my "adopted" family all ready to smother her with love, as they did when we were back there for 3 weeks in September. This would mean we could actually go out and have time together, while our daughter spends time with capable people who love her as opposed to us having to pay $150+ a night ($25 an hour!!! Plus tip!!!) for a babysitter.

- Primary and Secondary Education. Ireland is currently one of the top nations in the world in terms of levels of education, comfortably ahead of America. It's estimated that maths and science especially are about 2 years ahead of US levels (meaning a 10 year old child in Ireland is learning the same stuff that a 12 year old in America is learning.)

- Cost of University. Three years ago The association I work for published a study which predicts that by the time a child born in 2012 is old enough to go to University, the cost involved will be $160,000 over four years. The follow up study is slated for later this year, and the early models are suggesting that is going to jump to over $200,000 for a child born in 2016. Bear in mind now, that's just the cost of admittance and books, not housing, food, spending money etc. So college for my daughter will be somewhere between the two, closer to the higher number. Which is a number we can't afford (and frankly I don't know how any family can afford that), so she would likely be graduating from University in massive debt. No way for a young person to start a life.

- Housing: I know things back home aren't cheap by any means. But housing costs are about 40% of what they are here.

- Healthcare: At the moment, health insurance for my family is over $20,000 a year. I know the HSE is a mess, but it's as bad here. I can't see a doctor because I have east coast health insurance, and the locals don't want to deal with it. So if I make a trip to the doctor, I have to pay upfront, and HOPE my insurance company reimburses me. Last time I had my annual checkup, it cost me $400. (Despite us paying that $20k a month!) Anyways, adding private insurance back there would set me back... €1,500 a year?

- Travel and Culture: One of the things I love about Europe in general is that access is available to dozens of other nations, and their history and culture. A two hour flight from here will take me to places like Disneyland and... Las Vegas? (I know there are other cities, but...) The same two hour flight from Cork could have us in London, Madrid, Paris, Rome, Berlin, Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Vienna, Prague, or many other cities - along with the history and culture they bring.

- Better work/life balance: When my wife gave birth to our daughter, she took time off. Most people were AMAZED that her job let her do that. Even so, she had to use her vacation time for this, and when she went through that, she would be on unpaid leave. In Ireland, women are entitled to SIX months of maternity leave after giving birth. Beyond things like that, it's quite common in America to work 50-60 hours a week. (My wife did before we had the baby). That happens in Ireland too, but it's rare. There is more emphasis on spending time away from the office to be with your family - which makes you more productive when you're at your desk.

- Safety: No place on earth is safe. We tragically saw that in Paris. But in America, over almost 12,000 murders each year. Almost 3,000 of them are children and teens. I know that people can say that "Well, America is a massive country, so the chances of it happening to you are still small" but they're a hell of a lot bigger here than they would be in Ireland.

Those were the pros. There were a load more, but we discarded them as being trivial. (Access to batterburgers!) In terms of the cons, we came up with "afraid of the unknown, the weather, and leaving my wife's parents."

LegacyUser

I have an 18 month old daughter (Irish and in Ireland). While I haven't lived in the States, I have spend a good bit of time there, East and West coast, and have several friends who now find themselves in the position that you're in - I know the Bay area fairly well.

Firstly I'm going to say that I personally always felt that I would never want to bring a child up in the States. So that's going to colour my opinion a bit.

Secondly - you're neither a genius nor an idiot, nor do you have to be one or the other. You're just someone in the middle trying to do the best they can, same as everyone else. Thought I should clear that up for you

I'll weigh in for what it's worth with my opinion as the parent of a small child in Ireland.

Firstly the maternity leave - I took 6 months paid leave +10 weeks unpaid leave + 3 weeks holiday leave after my first. She went to a childminder around 8.5 months. We are due our second shortly, and I would hope to take at least the same amount of time. The company I am with now allow you to take 6 months + 16 weeks statutory unpaid + a further 10 weeks unpaid leave. Depends what you can afford, but it's nice to have the option. Honestly - I can't imagine leaving my child after what - 12 weeks? Is that what you get there?

Secondly - we moan a lot about the education system here. A LOT. But yeah, you're right - it does beat the American system hands down. The only thing might be - the religious aspect. Depending on where you live, you may have to look at getting your child baptised (you mentioned a naming ceremony, I'm assuming you're not religious). I don't know how big an issue that is for you. Also we currently have 2 years of "free" preschool education here, a certain number of hours a week free in a playschool or montessori before they start primary school.

University - we moan a lot about that too. But at the end of the day, it's open to everyone to attend. There are fees, about 2500k a year right now depending on the college. No comparison, really. I can't imagine that any changes that might happen down the road under future governments will make things as expensive as the US.

Housing - no brainer. We haven't a patch on the Bay area when it comes to prices. Don't expect to rent easily though. Although I'm in Dublin myself, things might be better in Cork.

Healthcare - our daughter had her vaccinations through the HSE for free for the first 14 months. Currently there's a free GP scheme for under sixes in place, so she gets free doctor visits. We do have health insurance, it's about 200eur a month to cover all 3 of us for very reasonable cover (semi-private in public hospital cover). The HSE is a bloody mess and they will charge you 100eur up front if you find yourself making a dash to Temple St hospital at midnight on a Saturday (or any other time, for that matter!). But - really - at least we're not worried about bankrupting us everytime one of us is sick. There's a lot to be said for that. My maternity is also covered for free by the way - combined care with scans and appointments through the public system (though we've chosen to go private in a public hospital, just because we do have insurance to a certain level), and 6 free GP appointments, 2 after the baby is born.

Support network and childcare - this is a biggie. A support network is totally necessary when the child starts to get bigger. This is the reason friends of ours have recently taken the plunge and returned here with two kids in tow, and why another couple are working their way back after their first. The stupid things like having someone to call when you're really stuck; if the child is sick in daycare, someone to call if you really can't leave work - all that good stuff. Things that you can't even imagine, it's fantastic to have someone to call. The downside - childcare is expensive.Our little one is 5 days a week with a childminder and it's 150eur a week - and that is very very good. Two will probably bankrupt us, but hey, it's just for a few years (that's my attitude anyway). Childcare is a big problem in this country, but I'm not sure that it's any better in the States.

I'm not trying to paint Ireland as a utopia, but those are my thoughts on some of your points, coming from a similar time in life as you are now. If I were you, the big worries would be your wife and how she would manage here (there's nothing so depressing as waking up in the morning, hearing the bucketing rain and knowing you're stuck in with a toddler all day long). If she's going to be a stay at home mother, it could be quite isolating for her and she would probably find that she has to put a lot of effort into getting out and about to meet others, especially others with kids. You would probably want to aim to live near somewhere fairly large with decent facilities, because out in the country could be very lonely for her. As for her leaving her parents, that's a personal thing for her to figure out for herself I guess. And if I were you I'd try and have the job situation sorted before you come here.

There's no right or wrong answer I'm afraid, and although I haven't lived there long term, I've spent enough time in the US to absolutely love the Bay area and the west coast of the States. It has a huge amount going for it. But I just think myself that, socially, the disadvantages of the US are too great in comparison to Europe and as I said I personally wouldn't want to bring a child up there if I had the option of going elsewhere. Your priorities get totally upended when you have kids (even in Ireland!!) and your whole outlook changes, so you're not mad to be thinking like this. But for your wife, it is probably kind of a bigger thing, so you would want to make sure that you're both on the same page as regards giving it a go.

jimmycrackcorm

What might sway your decision more to move is if you're planning to have more children. In that case your own arguments stack up very significantly when it comes to bringing up a family.

Permabear

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ubermick

Thanks a million for that, Permabear. Food for thought for sure.

I will say one thing about the shootings and drugs though, it's closer to home than you think. A good buddy of mine from the East Coast moved back up to his home town when he met his now wife in Connecticut. Tried to enroll his son in the local elementary school, but didn't get the one he wanted, instead getting one a bit further away since it was full. Lucky, too. The school he tried to get his son into was Sandy Hook Elementary, and about six months after they moved there, the mass shooting happened where 20 little kids were shot. One of the kids lived next door to him, and was his son's best friend, and quite a few of the parents who lost kids were in their parenting group. Within a year, they'd moved to Toronto.

As to the drugs, my niece here in Marin County - one of the most affluent counties in America - has been offered oxycontin and crystal meth at school. She's 9. Her parents were telling us at Christmas that she's having a hard time in school with other kids making fun of her - "because she only has an iphone 5s."

Telling ya, it's those stories that scare the bejesus out of me.

My daughter at the moment doesn't have to face any of that since she's only just turned one, but my wife feels strongly that if we move, we do it before she starts school so she doesn't have to go through too much disruption. Definitely see where you're coming from with the standard of Universities though, and that's something I hadn't considered. Mind you, I doubt very much we'll be in a position to come up with the near quarter of a million dollars it'd take to send her to one of those!

Permabear

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ubermick

Funny you should mention that Perma, I actually work in financial aid - well, at least a financial aid association. Gave up working at for profit companies when I realized my 60 hours a week served no purpose other than to put my boss in a nicer BMW, so walked away end ended up at a non-profit.

Anyways, I had work run the numbers for my daughter last year, and on a 529 program we need to start stuffing away $400 a month to cover her projected college costs. (My wife's school, UC Davis, is projected at being about $300k for in-state, when cost of living is included.) Which we can swing - we're doing quite well here, but the issue is going to be my wife wanting to dial her career back. She's the primary bread winner at the moment, and doing the 55 hours a week thing, but is fast approaching burnout, and has already told her boss she's not going to last too much longer at it.

I had the same issue with the taxes as well. The wife works in finance, and she ran the numbers on my salary. Based on what she found, my income would only change marginally if I kept the same income and lived in Ireland. While you're on the nose about the 28% bracket, on top of that we have 9.3% state income tax, and another ~8% for medicare, social security, and the like. So while the marginal rate of 53.5% is loopy back home, it's about 45.5% here. Better for sure, but then there's additional taxation we have to go through. Ludicrous property tax, for example, and a 10% sales tax on everything. While Ireland has the 21% VAT, it's at least included in the prices of things. Food and daily items here are about the same price in California, and there's the 10% whacked on top. After we did the pros and cons list, and found ourselves basically deciding to move, she did a cost/benefit analysis of California v Ireland, and saw that our cost of living in Ireland - with the same bills and amenities we have here like mobiles, cars, utilities, satellite telly, broadband, etc., along with a similarly sized house in a nice area of Cork - was cut in half, when we take into consideration what we'd have to start stuffing away for her college. So she's over the moon - if we move and I keep my job, she basically just has to get a part time job for us to maintain the same level of disposable income as we have here.

Nice for some!

Mind you though, I'm very much aware that we're comparing Cork to one of the most expensive places on the planet. The subject of moving elsewhere in the country was raised, and my wife immediately shot it down. If we move, she wants to have family in the vicinity so our daughter can grow up with that (she has a tiny family, and is envious of friends who had aunts, uncles, cousins, etc.) so it's either the Bay Area or Ireland.

That aside, the money doesn't bother me as much though, I'm really not financially driven. I'm grand as long as bills are paid, there's a few quid in the bank for a rainy day, and everyone is content. I have the fancy car and the like because we have the means for it, but frankly if I had to swap my shiny new S4 for an old Volkswagen, it wouldn't bother me.

For me, I think it's more defaulting to wanting my daughter to have a similar childhood than I did, probably so I can relate to it better. Think that's the Bay Area, though. But have to admit, absolutely hated living on the East coast. (Ironically am much happier here than I was anywhere else in my time in America!) Do get that mass shootings are statistically unlikely to happen to her, and am far less worried about some yahoo in school showing up with their dad's glock that I am her just being the victim of something completely random. Or the far more prevalent drug problem there is here.

I think the bigger worry though is that I'm letting my own homesickness cloud my judgment, so am trying to rein it back - hence starting threads on random message boards in the hopes that others can speak objectively and talk sense into me. Which you're doing a bloody good job of. (Mind you, if Trump wins, discussion over, I'm gone!)

gothic_doll

Hi to the OP

My family moved from Australia to the UK when I was around 3 for similar reasons you are considering- free University was being withdrawn, (so costs would be high in future), and concerns about guncrime. Soon after they left there was a mass shooting near where they lived. Plus, like you, there was no help in terms of childcare offered by their parents (due to location, and personal choices)

To have a network of family in Ireland to support you sounds absolutely wonderful to me.

I think follow your instincts on this. For me, the reasons you've given - a friend who was a victim of the Sandy Hook shootings, hearing of 9 year old's offered meth and other drugs at school, and teased for not having an iphone 5s...

It all speaks volumes to me. Best of luck with your decisions OP.

Shelga

It's a tough one OP, but it sounds like you've done a lot of research, and your instinct is telling you to go home.

I heard an interesting viewpoint the other day- after your mid/late 20s, the big life decisions you make are always 50/50 and there is no one choice you can make that will result in 100% happiness and fulfillment. All you can do is accept that you made a decision at a point in time based upon the data available combined with gut instinct, and roll with the punches. Keep looking forward.

As with anything in life, it will be what you make of it, although after 20 years away, brace yourself to have a few bumpy moments and culture shocks, no matter how prepared you think you are or how often you visit home. It's not the same as living there. There'll almost definitely be a time when you're standing in the pouring rain in a bad mood, wondering if you made the right decision, but if you're ready for those moments they'll be a lot easier.

Sounds like your main consideration is your wife settling in- but if you say she has visited Ireland a lot with you and you've had long discussions about all the pros and cons, you have to let her just jump. I imagine it would take around 12-18 months for her to feel settled, so don't expect things to be smooth sailing from day 1.

I'd be like you in that beyond a reasonable standard of living and disposable income, money doesn't matter all that much. I work hard, but the life I have outside work is my real priority. Trying myself to find a place/job that offers the best balance of all key considerations is indeed tricky!

You can't put a price on your daughter growing up around such an extended family network, and the fact that you are aiming to live outside Dublin makes things so much easier financially. Sounds like you're 75% decided and you just need more time to think through absolutely everything, which is totally understandable for such a massive decision! Best of luck.

now online

Hi
I'm a mom of 2, I've never lived in the states so can't compare but what I will say is this.

My kids are growing up surrounded by cousins Aunts, Uncles and grandparents. Believe me when I say I know how lucky we are!

I have babysitters on tap ( not that we go out that often) and people around us that we can rely on. To me that's priceless.

If you both want to do it then do! Seize the chance and go for it!

Permabear

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Wesser

I think you need to think through each step very carefully
How much money would you be making and how much net pay?
What size is an affordable house in cork? Irish houses are much smaller than American. What is the neighbourhood like? Walk around it. How much are your other expenses? Car? Insurance? Groceries? ? Internet? Electricity? Gas? How much will you have left over for treats? How far away is the school? How far away are relatives?

I appreciate what you are saying about things being more real
In Ireland but things are not perfect here either..... Some of the things you mention happen in Ireland too.

Best of luck.

cactusgal

Hi Op, it's a very hard decision. Without going into too much about my own life, I'm American, but have been living in Ireland since my mid 20s, been here nearly 12 years now. Did BA degree in the USA, MA in Ireland. Father is American, mother Irish.
After having lived in both countries, I think the USA is a better place to grow up. Better weather, more scope for extracurricular activities, more opportunities in school and universities. I went to excellent public schools and universities in the USA that were completely free, due to the in-state scholarship system. Great experience, for which I am very thankful. While I enjoyed my MA degree here, the university system in Ireland is much less rigorous, in my experience.
It may be very hard for your wife to settle here. She will miss Thanksgiving, the different seasons, sunshine, friends, family, home culture, etc (assumptions I'm making on my own experience, of course!) It is hard, very hard, and I'm half Irish and have lived here for a long time.
Just my 2 cents!! (I grew up in the southeast, much more chilled out than the Bay Area, so my thoughts are based on this).
I'm also very sorry for the loss of your parents, op. You can really feel a bit rootless when your folks have passed, and it makes it easy to drift, and hard to set down roots.
Good luck with your decision, it's not easy.

LegacyUser

Op, I am Irish and, after living in Australia for 12 years, came back to live here for a couple of years...we had kids and Australian wife was pregnant when we arrived.
Some thoughts I had on the move,
Salaries are much less here and tax is way more so your disposable income is way down, fixed costs like car tax, petrol and insurance are way more so the income that is left is eaten up by that, after being able to spend freely we have to budget tightly to make things stretch, eating out with kids is more expensive and a pain as not many places have play areas etc. Big shock after all the options in oz you have!
Things are so much harder to set up here such as bank accounts, mobile phone bill, electricity... There seems to be a suspicion if you are setting these things up for new, for instance the electricity wanted 300 euro deposit to set up an account, getting my wife on a bank account took a few months with the need for documentation...and no bank account, no phone account
I had forgotten the long winters and wash out Summers that really drain you!
After being back on holidays we don't see as much of the family as we would like as everybody is so busy working...family we thought we would see more weren't really interested in us...my parents are having a ball with the grand kids which makes it all worthwhile really!
The health system is awful, truly awful, I was ashamed to be Irish when my parents in law came to the maternity hospital, run down, understaffed with nurses(not with people going round with clip boards noting everything though)
We live in a rural area and it is very isolating and broadband is crap and expensive, keeping 2 cars in the road eats income but you need it if you live rural.
On the other side being near parents and family is great though(apart from a few) and enjoying the sports and general craic here.Work is more relaxed and less corporate which I like. Would I come back to live permanently? No way, the opportunities in oz that kids would get are a million miles away from here, I can actually save for retirement there and enjoy holidays, the weather is predictable and exercise is easier.
I'm glad to be here for a few years but would not stick it if it was a permanent move.

ubermick

Wesser wrote: »

I think you need to think through each step very carefully
How much money would you be making and how much net pay?
What size is an affordable house in cork? Irish houses are much smaller than American. What is the neighbourhood like? Walk around it. How much are your other expenses? Car? Insurance? Groceries? ? Internet? Electricity? Gas? How much will you have left over for treats? How far away is the school? How far away are relatives?

I appreciate what you are saying about things being more real
In Ireland but things are not perfect here either..... Some of the things you mention happen in Ireland too.

Best of luck.

Therein lies the rub, though.

So my wife is a complete workaholic. Love her to bits, but she gets devoted to her job, whatever that might be. Average workweek for her is 50 hours, and often brings work home with her. Since the baby arrived, she's had a rethink on all of that, and a shifting of her priorities. Now she wants to be in a job where she leaves early enough to collect the baby from the creche, and have time to spend with her when they get home. Her current boss has taken note of this, and has suggested transferring her to a department where she'd be working less, but also working less.

Any more to Ireland would need that to continue. She doesn't want to be the gogetter any more, and she's realized that she's been trained that way by her family and by American culture from day one. She'll still want to work, but has decided it's a strict 9-5 and no more for her from now on. It's part of the reason we want to move, so our daughter doesn't grow up with that. (No, I don't mean we want her growing up being a dosser, but we don't want her growing up thinking a 50 hour work week and slaving your fingers to the bone in pursuit of status and dollars is the way to go).

So I need to be the primary bread winner. Which I would be if we move and I keep my job. If work, however, say that there's no way they can live with me continuing to work from home albeit in Ireland as opposed to the US, then it would mean she would need to continue in career mode, either here or there.

So all hinges on the decision of my boss. If she says yes, then the move is 80% on. If she says no, then we're fcucked.

CaraMay

Fingers crossed for you. I moved home from Europe years ago (single) and did find it hard to settle for a while but now that I've a child, I find it fantastic. Of course there are issues but there are issues everywhere and it doesn't all come down to money.

The gun culture in the states would put me off too. If you refuse to let your child go on play dates to houses where they have guns, would she go on any play dates at all?

There is great (for us) comfort in having family and friends around and I've found that the weather is the main drawback.

Best of luck op

CaraMay

Fingers crossed for you. I moved home from Europe years ago (single) and did find it hard to settle for a while but now that I've a child, I find it fantastic. Of course there are issues but there are issues everywhere and it doesn't all come down to money.

The gun culture in the states would put me off too. If you refuse to let your child go on play dates to houses where they have guns, would she go on any play dates at all?

There is great (for us) comfort in having family and friends around and I've found that the weather is the main drawback.

Best of luck op

IvoryTower

If your boss says no do you not think you could get a job in ireland anyway? Sorry if I missed it!

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

iguana

Have you looked into the schools issue. As you describe having a naming ceremony I'm presuming that your daughter isn't baptised. In that case you may find it very, very hard to get her a place in a primary school as schools are allowed to prioritise children who are baptised ahead of those who aren't, so if the schools in the area you want to move to are over-subscribed she will not get a place there. There are Educate Together schools, which are multi-denominational, but they are usually massively over-subscribed and if they operate on a 'first come, first served' basis, you pretty much need to apply as soon as your child is born to have much hope of getting a place. If they operate a lottery system you could still possibly get your daughter a place but a lot of schools will literally have thousands of applicants for 28 places.

LegacyUser

Op, just a quick word on the settling in issue.

I worked in Dublin with an american guy. Wife was Irish, they lived in California and after their kids were born she was desperate to come home. He got a great job in one of the internetty companies, happy days.

Except he could not believe how awful the weather was and how it affected the families activities. He was bored to tears at the weekends. It was always pissing down ans there was nothing to do. His wife didnt see the problem. He used to moan about how her only answer was "sure we'll go into town!"

Drove him mad. He didnt want to go into town! He wanted to be biking and hiking and all sorts of west coast things. He was horrified by the cost of clubs - it was just impossible.

So all these visions he saw of work/life balance just seemed a bit naive. He was home at 6 but it was already dark in the winter, or invariably lashing in the summer, and there was nothing to do but watch telly!

There was a bad winter and it kinda broke him. Last I heard he was having a lot of rows with the wife as he wanted to move back and she was happy as larry here. Dont know what happened as I left the place.

Food for thought!

Charles Babbage

There is the general and specific. The US is a large place, crime rates vary, schools vary, as Permabear said. If money is your main driver in life is money than the US is the place where the buck is important, if you want to live in Europe it is for other reasons., Universities in Ireland are not as ranked as highly as the the top ones in the US, but are decent, say between University of California and California State University levels. The cost of going to UC or CSU is based on their fees and scholarships in particular, not the general average for the US. If you want to go to Harvard, then you are as near in Ireland as in California, but this is only for a minority.

Permabear notes that it's important for children to grow up around a healthy work ethic, but this comes from your family more than anyone. There are many workshy people in Ireland, but they have little real influence on families where people have a work ethic.
As noted the in previous post, the spouse's ability to adjust is the main issue in many cases.

Charles Babbage

There is the general and specific. The US is a large place, crime rates vary, schools vary, as Permabear said. If money is your main driver in life is money than the US is the place where the buck is important, if you want to live in Europe it is for other reasons., Universities in Ireland are not as ranked as highly as the the top ones in the US, but are decent, say between University of California and California State University levels. The cost of going to UC or CSU is based on their fees and scholarships in particular, not the general average for the US. If you want to go to Harvard, then you are as near in Ireland as in California, but this is only for a minority.

Permabear notes that it's important for children to grow up around a healthy work ethic, but this comes from your family more than anyone. There are many workshy people in Ireland, but they have little real influence on families where people have a work ethic. Broader families too can instil other values.
As noted the in previous post, the spouse's ability to adjust is the main issue in many cases.

deisemum

I spent almost 12.5 years in London and moved back to my husband's home place 19 years ago. It took me the guts of 18 months to settle here and I used to be regularly moan to him about moving back to London before I settled as we still had our home in London but had it leased for 2 years.

I'm so glad we moved back as our children have a much better quality of life than they would have had if we'd stayed in London. Our older lad was born in London and was 16 months when we moved back.

If you do move back you've got to be realistic and allow a decent amount of time to settle.

LegacyUser

Morning OP

I notice that you mention that your wife is interested in the idea of living in Blarney.

I am from the area, lived in Dublin & London for a decade or two & then came "home" a few years ago. So I feel I can give you some practical advise on living in Blarney.

Firstly, housing is very expensive here & that is if something comes up for sale. As the village & surrounding areas/tiny villages of Tower & Cloghroe are perfectly positioned for EMC, Apple & CUH it is very popular with workers.

There are some great primary schools - the mixed national school in Blarney & the gaelschoil & then there is the national school in Cloghroe which is very good. The secondary schools are more based in the city, although there is one in Blarney & two excellent ones in Ballingcollig which is about a 15/20 mins drive. And then there is UCC & CIT for 3rd level education.

There is a decent enough bus service, every 25 mins during the day into Cork city. Driving into Cork takes only about 15/20 mins but parking is a pain & can be more expensive than Dublin. The train from Cork to Dublin is excellent (2hrs & 10 mins non-stop) & you are relatively close to the airport.

Blarney village itself is very pretty but you can take it from me that you wouldn't see an American tourist from one end of the week to the next - they mostly stay put in the Woollen Mills for shopping and then visit the Castle.

There is an annual pass for the Castle & grounds - think it is about €50/60 & it is great value. The grounds are magnificent to walk through at any season & then of course there is the castle. My daughter loves stalking through the fairy glen trying to spot Tinkerbell!

There are plenty of yoga/pilates classes, crochet groups, mother & baby groups, historical groups, fitness classes, toastmasters groups on the go if you wanted to get involved.

The weather is shocking though - I don't think I have seen a sky, let alone a blue sky, since last October.

I don't envy your decision & wish you luck - the hard past is making the decision & once you decide, whichever way it is, then don't second guess yourself!

Good luck.

LegacyUser

One thing I notice no one else here has mentioned; just because your extended family oohh and aahh over your baby and line up to babysit while you are in Ireland for a couple of weeks a year, doesn't mean they will be queuing up to help if you live here permanently.

Speaking from personal experience, my husband, kids and I moved back from Australia 2 years ago after many years there. We found that a lot of the promises made to us by family ("Any time ye want to go out for a meal or drinks as a couple, we'll take the kids", "We can collect the kids from school if you get stuck in work late") weren't necessarily true when we became a permanent fixture in Ireland.

When we visited for 3 - 4 weeks each year, we were a novelty around the place and everyone wanted to spend time with us, the schedule was hectic with dinners and drinks and meetups with cousins etc. Since moving back permanently, I can count the number of times this happens per year on one hand, and it's always arranged by me when it does happen.

We were very close with our neighbours in Australia, with regular neighbourhood BBQs and pool parties, but other than a wave when we pass on the road, we have little contact with our Irish neighbours.

My cousins who were begging to take the kids for a few hours when we visited on vacation disappeared off the face of the earth, and never took me up on offers to babysit their kids. People have their set routines, and they're less likely to disrupt them for you when you are around all the time. I find this to be even more true when talking about cousins, and more distant relatives (i.e. non siblings).

I think it's important not to place too much emphasis on your extended family.

Reality of life living in Ireland again is VERY different from spending a few weeks per year here, particularly in regards to how you will be received by others.

And I have never taken advantage of anyone, and I always offer to return favours.

I think very few Irish people have ample free babysitters waiting to be called upon.

I believe the difference is when you only visit for a couple of weeks, family/friends know any offers of good will are one-offs, but lots of people fear getting 'caught into a routine' when you are a permanent resident.

Just my 2 cents.

Wompa1

I wouldn't move anywhere for family support being a big factor. The reality is, you can only get so much support. Granted, getting zero support from her family is rough. I just had my first child in Arizona. We haven't needed support yet because my fiance is on her pitiful 6 weeks of maternity leave right now but when we do, her mother is willing to help out and mind him during the day.

Now, our son was in the NICU for 2 days. We're seeing the bill coming in on her insurance...it's astronomical. It's looking like the eventual cost may end up being over $50k...her insurance will cover it. If we went through my insurance, it would have cost $12k. She wants to find a new job but she's torn because the insurance is so good....but her job is not safe. It's a terrible position to be in...feeling unsafe at work, hating your job but feeling inclined to stay in the job because of the terrible healthcare system here.

Her brother just back from active service...which he did for education benefits. That's the best route for affordable college and he's come back with a fascination with guns and is tightly wound.

For the people saying don't worry about the gun thing, it won't impact you. There's been multiple school evacuations in the area here and I'd bet it's the same where you are. Bomb threats, shootings near the schools. Here they do active shooter drills like they are fire drills....that's not the kind of environment I want my son to grow up in.

I might be extra paranoid than most because there was a workplace shooting at a company I previously worked for. I wasn't in that building at the time, I was in a different building. There was a love triangle between three employees...one guy went to the other guys apartment, shot and killed him in the stairwell then went to the office to confront the woman. Found her in the break room and blew his own brains out in front of a bunch of people.

I also worked for an insurance company and a hospital here...so, I have a unique perspective on the healthcare system from multiple angles. It's beyond corrupt and horrible for the majority of people.

I'm jaded and fed up. If my fiance would give the go ahead. I'd move back to Ireland in the morning. After his birth, she's changing her attitude too...she use to say we'll move in a fawning me off kind of way. Just getting me to shut up about it to now saying, she thinks it would be better for our son.

Wompa1

I feel compelled to discuss this even more because this is front and center in my thoughts too. I've been thinking about growing up in Ireland...how much fun it was as a kid. We're a bunch of begrudgers but I'd bet 95% of people who grew up in Ireland hold a lot of love for it and have fond memories.

I fondly remember the community games in our village. St. Patricks Day parades in small towns. The feeling of pride when Ireland did well in 1990 and 1994 in the world cup.

The weather was ****e but it didn't matter. We were out playing soccer or football in it. The buzz around the All Ireland final. Sundays actually feel like a different day of the week..small town businesses are closed.

Forbes said Ireland is one of the greatest countries to grow up in...that wasn't based on any of what I've said...that was based of quality of life measured with services, mortality etc. On top of that, we have an amazing life in Ireland. We're nice to each other for the most part. There's actual compassion and empathy for those who fall on hard times. Even in the down turn, we were one of the most giving nations in terms of charity.

Look at America...first off..Went from not that impressive on the charity giving front to nearing the top in recent years..why? A bunch of billionaires have started to put their money into their own charity foundations so they don't have to pay tax on it.

My fiance has been here for over 20 years. She says she doesn't feel anything for her community or area. Why? there's nothing to feel?...oh remember when we use to go to Flanagans sweet shop after school?...nope, here, it's remember we use to go to QuikTrip that later became a f'kin Pizza Hut and is now an Olive Garden. Nothing is preserved and things change rapidly.

Her parents bought a brand new home about 15 years ago. It was new, the area was new..everything was great. Now it's gone to hell. We drove there a few weekends ago and one of the neighbors was getting arrested in a raid. It's an urban sprawl...it's a cycle of sh1t. I know San Francisco is a little different but part still rings true...I went to the poor part where my great grandfather once lived and it's been regentrified into a plus complex. I went to visit two graves of poor migrant workers..they were in unkept, unmarked graves. I was told a plot in that graveyard today is about the same as a sports car....

Ireland is clearly better for a family. America is good for a young person who wants to achieve career goals and make money but when you've got a family, that's less and less important. How does your wife feel about her career plan now?