A run in with the Gardai....

mattym

I am looking for opinions on whether i was in the right this morning when i was told off by a passing squad car. I was cycling on a road with 2 lanes, the left with an arrow painted on the road for turning left and the right lane with an arrow for going straight. I was going straight so i was on the left hand sided of the right hand lane if that makes sense! A squad car drove up on my right hand side and told me to move over into the left lane to which i replied that i couldn't as i was going straight on. He continued to tell me that i was in the way and to get into the left lane which i did not do. At the junction just up the road the lights were red so i knocked on his window and he eventually opened it. I asked him where i should be and all he could say was that i was taking up the whole road and that i shouldn't be in the outside lane. I argued my point again until the lights went green and he said "well go and get yourself killed so".

Can someone tell me was i in the wrong in doing what i did please?

onmebike

I think that you were doing the correct thing. By the Garda's description, you were either meant to be at the left of a left-turn lane and go straight or take up the whole left-turn lane. Neither of these, in my opinion, are the right places to be.

JR6

Sounds fine to me what you were doing. He sounds like a dick.

Zulu

You were in the wrong for not doing as they suggested.

ThisRegard

From initial reading, nothing.

Not sure if anyone heard the Last Word last night but they had another of those cycling pieces on about what cyclist groups would like, and they had the usual dissenting voice from some councillor who spouted all the usual clichés. One point was to do about gardai and the councillor went off on one saying that the gardai are great, they don't need any sort of training.

First thing I thought of was all the posts from people who've been directed by gardai to use the cycle lanes since this requirement was abolished.

mattym

Can you explain Zulu??

Milly33

It sounds like maybe the guard did not know the layout out the lanes, But as such if you were the first bike in the lane you should have been in the middle of the right hand lane not to one of the sides just like a car would be

mattym

Thanks Milly33, i have been searching the internet for some facts which will state that i am in the right. Any idea where i might get some? I got the registration number and i intend to report the incident. I am well used to cycling on busy roads for years and i feel this clear attempt at intimidation this morning would turn a lot of lesser experienced cyclist away from their bike.

Orion

I was in a car once in Terenure turning right from a side road on to the Kimmage Road. A Garda knocked on my window and asked me why I was turning right. I told her that that was the way I need to go and she pointed out the no right turn sign that I'd just passed. When I pointed out that there was a part of that sign that indicated the times it applied (4-7pm M-F) and it was Saturday at 8pm she didn't apologise or anything like that - just "don't do it again" and walked away. So the attitude is not unique to cyclists from them.

Orion

mattym wrote: »

Thanks Milly33, i have been searching the internet for some facts which will state that i am in the right. A

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/traffic-signs-road-markings/index.html

Milly33

MMM where to get them I went on a safety class for cycling on the main road in Cork so that's why id know the bits and pieces.. Have you tried the RSA website to see if they have anything.

knucklehead6

Orion wrote: »

I was in a car once in Terenure turning right from a side road on to the Kimmage Road. A Garda knocked on my window and asked me why I was turning right. I told her that that was the way I need to go and she pointed out the no right turn sign that I'd just passed. When I pointed out that there was a part of that sign that indicated the times it applied (4-7pm M-F) and it was Saturday at 8pm she didn't apologise or anything like that - just "don't do it again" and walked away. So the attitude is not unique to cyclists from them.

[not a cyclist, but related to your post]
I had a similar-ish situation once while driving in a bus lane at 6:45am when the bus lane only became active at 7:00am.
It was a squad car that pulled me, blues and twos, the whole nine yards. I mentioned to the Garda about the bus lane times and his exact words were, "you know what, you're right, sorry about that." I said to him (jokingly) that the rules of the road state to keep left so all the traffic in the right hand lane was in the wrong and he could fill his monthly quota there and then. He smiled, winked and said I don't have enough tickets left this month, and said to take it handy coming out of the lane that someone might be narky about me driving up the inside of them.

So not all Gardai are rude, some are quite sound.

[/not a cuclist]

TonyStark

mattym wrote: »

I am looking for opinions on whether i was in the right this morning when i was told off by a passing squad car. I was cycling on a road with 2 lanes, the left with an arrow painted on the road for turning left and the right lane with an arrow for going straight. I was going straight so i was on the left hand sided of the right hand lane if that makes sense! A squad car drove up on my right hand side and told me to move over into the left lane to which i replied that i couldn't as i was going straight on. He continued to tell me that i was in the way and to get into the left lane which i did not do. At the junction just up the road the lights were red so i knocked on his window and he eventually opened it. I asked him where i should be and all he could say was that i was taking up the whole road and that i shouldn't be in the outside lane. I argued my point again until the lights went green and he said "well go and get yourself killed so".

Can someone tell me was i in the wrong in doing what i did please?

I think what you done by maintaining primary position is commendable and ordinarily is the right thing to do.

But "...when there is traffic congestion or a fire, flood or similar occurrence.", the law does state:

A person who contravenes a direction given by a member of the Garda Síochána under this section shall be guilty of an offence.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/section/91/enacted/en/html

Was there traffic congestion? a flood? a fire?

Effects

What's your option? Stay in the left lane and risk a car turning left as you continue straight through? I'd know I would be in the right hand lane myself.

mattym

TonyStark wrote: »

I think what you done by maintaining primary position is commendable and ordinarily is the right thing to do.

But "...when there is traffic congestion or a fire, flood or similar occurrence.", the law does state:

A person who contravenes a direction given by a member of the Garda Síochána under this section shall be guilty of an offence.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/section/91/enacted/en/html

Was there traffic congestion? a flood? a fire?

There was non of the above Tony, we were the only 2 stopped at the lights till one more car pulled up behind then the lights were almost about to go green. I feel it is the most vulnerable situation for a cyclist when there are potentially cars coming past you on both the left and right hand sides. I think he was just annoyed that i was as he said "in my way"....

wrmwit

mattym wrote: »

I was going straight so i was on the left hand sided of the right hand lane if that makes sense!

I cycle a lot and I would have done the same thing. I keep to the left of the right hand lane for drivers to overtake me if it's safe to do. I wouldn't cycle on the middle of the lane cos that could p1ss drivers off and could be more dangerous. It sounds like you just came across a d1ck of a guard.

Milly33

defo not if you are the first person car/bike in the lane you should be positioned in the middle. It is safer for all you and the car if you do so this way... same if it was a motorbike..If you are at the side and lets say the person in the car is not paying attention (they should be but if they are not) they could slam into you or knock you over.You would not be visable to them

wrmwit

Orion wrote: »

I was in a car once in Terenure turning right from a side road on to the Kimmage Road. A Garda knocked on my window and asked me why I was turning right. I told her that that was the way I need to go and she pointed out the no right turn sign that I'd just passed. When I pointed out that there was a part of that sign that indicated the times it applied (4-7pm M-F) and it was Saturday at 8pm she didn't apologise or anything like that - just "don't do it again" and walked away. So the attitude is not unique to cyclists from them.

Something similar happened to me a couple of years ago when driving in the bus lane in Harolds Cross. I was pulled over by a guard who was going to fine me. I pointed out that the sign indicated I could drive between 10am to 12pm. For a few seconds he didn't know what to do. He just put his pad and walked away. I asked him for an apology and all I got was "don't push your luck" and drove away.

Deagol

Gardai often seem to have a very poor understanding of the rules of the road in my experience.

I once was pulled over for overtaking a car on my motorcycle where there was a solid white line. When I pointed out to the two gardai who stopped me that I at no time crossed the solid line (it was a very wide road and the driver I overtook had moved over to let me through) they had a five minute discussion with each other as to whether I was correct or not!

In my opinion, what you did was absolutely correct. Cycling in the left turn only lane and carrying straight on is very dangerous as it is an ambiguous 'signal' to drivers behind you.

Dawn Rider

Effects wrote: »

What's your option? Stay in the left lane and risk a car turning left as you continue straight through? I'd know I would be in the right hand lane myself.

Exactly. Also, a lot of junctions are designed in suy a way to make it very dangerous to to enter in the left turn only lane and ride straight forward.
Even if you can do, another cop could do you for it..!

The cops here are well trained but how much soaks in and is retained is up to the individual.

I believe it's up to every road user to know the law so they can calmly and confidently say to the Gaurd why they did a particular manoeuvre. You can say it nicely and give them a way out without embarrassing themselves too much.

There are two things.

Cars have to allow an amount of space when they over take cyclists, so when you use the leftest edge of the right side lane you effect traffic in two lanes. You would be better in middle of right lane.

Police can also be mistaken with good intention

seamus

mattym wrote: »

Can you explain Zulu??

Based on the rule that you must obey directions given to you by a Garda.

However there's a qualifer there in that the directions must be lawful - so telling you to follow an alternative route where a road is closed. If the Garda told you to cycle against oncoming traffic on the far side of that road, that is not a lawful direction and does not need to be obeyed.

Likewise I would argue that being told to cycle straight in a left-only lane is not lawful and does not have to be obeyed. Unless that lane doubles as a bus lane.

I had a similar run-in with a shickaloney who expressed exasperation as to why I would cycle in the middle of the bus lane and not up against the gutter on the basis that I was "causing grief for other people". Even though the road was clear.
It's worth remembering that vast majority of Gardai, even Traffic Corps, are far from experts and have little or no experience on a bike. And they all still have their own little biases and pet hates that may not be rooted in the law.

Jawgap

seamus wrote: »

Based on the rule that you must obey directions given to you by a Garda.

However there's a qualifer there in that the directions must be lawful - so telling you to follow an alternative route where a road is closed. If the Garda told you to cycle against oncoming traffic on the far side of that road, that is not a lawful direction and does not need to be obeyed.

......

Was once advised (in fairness it wasn't an instruction) by a Guard to cycle on the motorway!

When I express some incredulity at his suggestion he further advised me I'd be grand as the traffic was backed up and not moving anywhere!

blueband

Deleted User wrote: »

There are two things.

Cars have to allow an amount of space when they over take cyclists, so when you use the leftest edge of the right side lane you effect traffic in two lanes. You would be better in middle of right lane.

Police can also be mistaken with good intention

I would disagree, and quite strongly with the last point.

Firstly, you can safely cycle on the left hand side of the right lane without causing any disturbance or danger to traffic in the left lane, and without unduly causing disruption to traffic in the right hand lane.

As to police being mistaken, they are there to enforce the law, if they don't know or understand the law they have no business being in the job they're in.

There are a lot of good decent guards in this country, but there's an awful lot of idiots on power trips, and I think the OP came across one of them.

LpPepper

If it were me I'd be taking the right lane to go straight ahead, at least then drivers are aware of you. If the left lane is for left and you want to go straight, how is a car approaching from behind supposed to know? Although I see it all time...

yop

Id have followed what you were doing. YOu could have got wrote off if you stayed left and tried to cross over on coming traffic.

BKWDR

If im cycling in a situation similar to the OP (coming to a junction where both left hand turn and straight are on green) i actually tend to move out a bit in the left hand lane in advance of the turn and try indicate to any car that is behind me that i am continuing straight. If it's busy i would tend not to want to have to slow down to try get across a lane into another lane just for the sake of continuing.

I am only really in the way of traffic in the left hand lane that should be slowing anyway to make the turn.

BKWDR

If im cycling in a situation similar to the OP (coming to a junction where both left hand turn and straight are on green) i actually tend to move out a bit in the left hand lane in advance of the turn and try indicate to any car that is behind me that i am continuing straight. If it's busy i would tend not to want to have to slow down to try get across a lane into another lane just for the sake of continuing.

I am only really in the way of traffic in the left hand lane that should be slowing anyway to make the turn.

Nekarsulm

As they say around here, you should "Hould your ground" in the centre of the right lane. Otherwise you'll have lads with large vans and jeeps and trailers trying to squeeze by you, and giving no consideration as to how close they get to you.

macnab

@OP, I would bet that if you had actually been in the left lane and the Garda car was turning left, he would have given out to you also.
Just another case of the other road user presuming that they have more right to the road than you, or that their journey is more important to yours.

BTW i think you were 100% in the right.

Zulu

mattym wrote: »

Can you explain Zulu??

Well, the OP was asked to do something. There response was to argue. They were most probably "legally" right, but you know, sometimes its nice to be nice.

If someone asked me to pull in cause I was causing an obstruction, more than likely my first reaction would be to apologise. But that's me.

If a member of the emergency services asked me to do something, more than likely my first reaction would be to do it. You know, just in case there was something else up.

So, do I think (s)he was wrong? Yes.

ThisRegard

Zulu wrote: »

Well, the OP was asked to do something. There response was to argue. They were most probably "legally" right, but you know, sometimes its nice to be nice.

If someone asked me to pull in cause I was causing an obstruction, more than likely my first reaction would be to apologise. But that's me.

If a member of the emergency services asked me to do something, more than likely my first reaction would be to do it. You know, just in case there was something else up.

So, do I think (s)he was wrong? Yes.

Well there's being nice, respectful to authority, and then there's being subservient.

Orion

Zulu wrote: »

Well, the OP was asked to do something. There response was to argue. They were most probably "legally" right, but you know, sometimes its nice to be nice.

If someone asked me to pull in cause I was causing an obstruction, more than likely my first reaction would be to apologise. But that's me.

If a member of the emergency services asked me to do something, more than likely my first reaction would be to do it. You know, just in case there was something else up.

So, do I think (s)he was wrong? Yes.

If by obeying the instruction (which was wrong in the first place) I place myself in a vulnerable and unsafe position then I would politely refuse. So the OP was 100% correct to refuse to act against traffic laws and to put himself in an unsafe and illegal road position.

BKWDR

Yeah i can't help but think the whole knocking on the guards window really might not have been the right approach even if right or wrong, it can be interpretd as an agressive move (by a guard). Even saying that he 'eventually' opened the window, seems off.

I've been cut off twice (badly) in my minimum time cycling. Both times i was furious but once the driver opened their window and shouted "sorry , my bad" and then was instantly a better driver, indicating around lamposts etc.

Once you get from A to B safely , that's all that counts. I sometimes feel when i hear cyclists on the radio or during debates, they don't put themselves in a good light as they are constantly not willing to accept off other opinions. If i had a serious incident of road rage while driving in my car and someone stopped their car, got out and knocked on my window shouting, id be terrified and it completely nullifies any point they would be trying to make about the rules of the road.

Seaswimmer

I think it depends on the particular junction. I come across a junction with a straight ahead lane and a left turning lane on my commute. However I always signal and pull out into the centre of the left turning lane when approaching the junction and continue straight on or stop in a similar position to the OP if straightahead lights are red.
I find with some junctions if you hold a position to the left of the straight ahead lane then traffic is passing you closely on both sides and it can be unnerving.

Man11

From what I can tell you should of been in center of going straight lane not to left of it . Cars behind you have to let you move off first .thats why at some traffic lights/junctions there is room for cyclists to move in front . So id reckon its best to be in middle for safety and use your hand signals properly . So if you use your hand signals properly , for example going straight , turning left / right . Slowing down , stopping etc . There in the rules of the road . Cyclists have to use them too , as well as drivers when there indicators are not working . You cant read peoples minds so he could of thought you were going left . But if you don't use hand signals you would be at fault I'd say but still no excuse for the Garda for being rude !

Wishbone Ash

seamus wrote: »

Based on the rule that you must obey directions given to you by a Garda.

However there's a qualifer there in that the directions must be lawful....

I'm open to correction but if directed to do something (traffic related) by a Garda, then surely it must be lawful by virtue of it being a Garda directive (even if it would normally be illegal).

Orion

Nope - it must be a lawful direction. It being issued by a Garda does not in itself make it lawful. The example given by seamus is valid - if a Garda told you to cycle on the wrong side of the road into oncoming traffic that would not be lawful despite it coming from a Garda.

Explosive_Cornflake

I don't like posting in these big threads, but the direction from the Guard is just awful.
Here's an example where I believe cyclists have been killed for being in the wrong lane.

You absolutely want to be in the middle lane approaching this as the left lane is left turn only and it's a massive pinch point for cyclist who are in the left lane and want to keep going straight down the quays.

Carawaystick

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I'm open to correction but if directed to do something (traffic related) by a Garda, then surely it must be lawful by virtue of it being a Garda directive (even if it would normally be illegal).

I'd say this is more the Gardaí couldn't successfully prosecute you for following their direction, rather than it being legal. It's a form of entrapment.

Jawgap

Zulu wrote: »

Well, the OP was asked to do something. There response was to argue. They were most probably "legally" right, but you know, sometimes its nice to be nice.

If someone asked me to pull in cause I was causing an obstruction, more than likely my first reaction would be to apologise. But that's me.

If a member of the emergency services asked me to do something, more than likely my first reaction would be to do it. You know, just in case there was something else up.

So, do I think (s)he was wrong? Yes.

It sounds more like he was asked to do something he regarded as hazardous to his personal safety for the convenience of others.

I'm not sure how the convenience of one road user trumps the safety of another, but that's me.

It'd been better if the Guards had pulled up slightly behind him and made sure no muppets crowded him as he set off - in other words it would have been better if they'd engaged the 'road safety' part of their brain, instead of the 'traffic' part of their brain.

mattym

Zulu wrote: »

Well, the OP was asked to do something. There response was to argue. They were most probably "legally" right, but you know, sometimes its nice to be nice.

If someone asked me to pull in cause I was causing an obstruction, more than likely my first reaction would be to apologise. But that's me.

If a member of the emergency services asked me to do something, more than likely my first reaction would be to do it. You know, just in case there was something else up.

So, do I think (s)he was wrong? Yes.

Zulu my response was not to argue but to tell the garda i believed i was legally in the right place. I was at all times as you put it "nice". While this was going on the car which he was in was not at a safe distance away from me, which was quiet intimidating also. You mention causing an obstruction, is anyone or anything in front of you going slower than you are considered an obstruction? I was not going into the left hand lane as i would have been putting myself in damage of being hit by a car turning right. Maybe you are just a much nicer guy than i am!!

mattym

BKWDR wrote: »

Yeah i can't help but think the whole knocking on the guards window really might not have been the right approach even if right or wrong, it can be interpretd as an agressive move (by a guard). Even saying that he 'eventually' opened the window, seems off.

I've been cut off twice (badly) in my minimum time cycling. Both times i was furious but once the driver opened their window and shouted "sorry , my bad" and then was instantly a better driver, indicating around lamposts etc.

Once you get from A to B safely , that's all that counts. I sometimes feel when i hear cyclists on the radio or during debates, they don't put themselves in a good light as they are constantly not willing to accept off other opinions. If i had a serious incident of road rage while driving in my car and someone stopped their car, got out and knocked on my window shouting, id be terrified and it completely nullifies any point they would be trying to make about the rules of the road.

And rolling down the window and shouting out at a cyclist is not aggressive? I agree with you that it is all about getting from A to B safely and all i'd like to know is this guard aware of the rules of the road. Maybe by highlighting this to him he might be a little more courteous in the future to his fellow road users.

BKWDR

mattym wrote: »

And rolling down the window and shouting out at a cyclist is not aggressive? I agree with you that it is all about getting from A to B safely and all i'd like to know is this guard aware of the rules of the road. Maybe by highlighting this to him he might be a little more courteous in the future to his fellow road users.

I suppose i wasn't there and was just going on your OP, it didnt seem (from your post) that he shouted at you or that it was agressive but sure you were there in the moment.

Maybe he was just looking out for your safety, yes he could have done it 101 other ways, maybe he was wrong maybe he was right. But even on the few responses you have received there seems to be a difference of opinion, ya know.

I tend to not let any 'rage' (or otherwise) get to me, whether driving or cycling as i know the second that i stop thinking about what i am doing, that's when something will happen. We have all seen the 'karma' videos of someone so preoccupied by pointing out someone is wrong and then they snot themselves!

tomasrojo

I do sometimes go straight ahead using the middle of the left-turn lane. I think it's mentioned as an option in Cyclecraft.

Seaswimmer

Explosive_Cornflake wrote: »

I don't like posting in these big threads, but the direction from the Guard is just awful.
Here's an example where I believe cyclists have been killed for being in the wrong lane.

You absolutely want to be in the middle lane approaching this as the left lane is left turn only and it's a massive pinch point for cyclist who are in the left lane and want to keep going straight down the quays.

Or you could be in the middle of the left turning lane?? Possibly safer as you will only be passed by cars on the right who will be in theory within their lane.
Left turning cars will be behind you until you clear the junction.

Although possibly I see your point if you end up tight against the footpath on the other side of the junction??

L'Enfer du Nord

Well I've been given out to by a Guard for doing the opposite, i.e. Staying in the left turning lane while going straight on. The only reason I did this because the cop was directing traffic because of road closures for the mini-Marathon. Seeing the cop there instead of the usually traffic lights I was a bit distracted and forgot to move out. There was also no other traffic about.

Wishbone Ash

L'Enfer du Nord wrote: »

Well I've been given out to by a Guard for doing the opposite, i.e. Staying in the left turning lane while going straight on....

The same happened thing happened a fellow club member even though the dedicated left lane was also a bus lane for buses going straight on. The Garda also reprimanded him for stopping forward of the stop line (even though this is often safer).

Yakuza

Coming from Westland Row onto Merrion St. Lower is another place this happens; you have a cycle lane, then a left-only lane, then two lanes going straight and one looping back onto Clare St. Normally by the time I get there the light is red for me so it's not an issue, but I have seen a few close calls (and experienced one first hand) where a car attempts to go around a cyclist going straight. Why they couldn't slow down defeats me, but that's life. When I get there and the light is green for me, I tend to keep out of the cycle lane, in the middle of the left turning lane (and edging to the right of this lane by the time I cross the light). When traffic is stopped, I just weave up to the front of the traffic, between the left-only and straight on lanes.

Unknown Soldier

You were very much in the right OP. I'd cycle the same way.

It does very much depend on the junction though. I don't just get in the Straight ahead lane as soon as my lane shows a Left only arrow. It's very junction/traffic dependent but you definitely want to be in the right lane, at the right time.

If a left only lane was fairly long, I'd probably stay in it for most of the way until it was safe to cross over to the lane I needed to be in. I'm not great with having traffic on my right AND my left!

TheQuietFella

You were in the wrong lane!

I understand your reasoning behind it but again, the wrong lane!

What would have happened if a car had turned left, thinking that you

also were turning left? They're not there to cause anyone grievance.

I also got a little slap on the wrist whilst driving in Dublin recently.

Nod your head, apologise and move on, don't argue over something minor!