Carolina = GOAT?

Augme

If they win, will the Panthers be one of the greatest teams of all time? Obviously the 16-0 Dolphins will be in contention, but who else is there? I'm sure there are teams from the past who I don't know about but in my 15 odds years of watching the NFL I can't really think of a team who've been as good as the Panthers. A great regular season record and they've decimated two very good teams in the play-offs.

adrian522

Greatest of all time of the last 15 years then?

Augme

adrian522 wrote: »

Greatest of all time of the last 15 years then?

Or maybe of all time?

adrian522

Well maybe not, you have teams that went unbeaten through the regular season, you have teams that won back to back superbowls, you have teams that won multiple superbowls in a short time span, you have teams full of hall of fame players.

If the Panthers win they'll be the greatest team of the 2015 season and nothing more than that in my opinion.

adrian522

Well maybe not, you have teams that went unbeaten through the regular season, you have teams that won back to back superbowls, you have teams that won multiple superbowls in a short time span, you have teams full of hall of fame players.

If the Panthers win they'll be the greatest team of the 2015 season and nothing more than that in my opinion.

lbj666

No such thing in the era of free agency as the greatest of all time. 2007 Pats came the closest.

Knex*

Petition to ban the term GOAT, and the discussions surrounding it, in all its formats, please.

golfball37

If they win in a fortnights time they'll be as good as Green Bay 2010 and still behind Seattle 2013 imo.

Thats this decade. If they win multiples then they'll be re-evaluated.

golfball37

If they win in a fortnights time they'll be as good as Green Bay 2010 and still behind Seattle 2013 imo.

Thats this decade. If they win multiples then they'll be re-evaluated.

Richard Hillman

If they smash Denver they are definitely in the conversation. There is an untouchable feel of domination about them.

Augme

adrian522 wrote: »

Well maybe not, you have teams that went unbeaten through the regular season, you have teams that won back to back superbowls, you have teams that won multiple superbowls in a short time span, you have teams full of hall of fame players.

If the Panthers win they'll be the greatest team of the 2015 season and nothing more than that in my opinion.

golfball37 wrote: »

If they win in a fortnights time they'll be as good as Green Bay 2010 and still behind Seattle 2013 imo.

Thats this decade. If they win multiples then they'll be re-evaluated.

Going unbeaten in the regular season means nothing if you don't win it all. As for winning multiple superbowls, does that make you the best or just consistent?

As for the 2010 packers - I just can't accept a 10-6 regular team being thought of that highly.

lbj666 wrote: »

No such thing in the era of free agency as the greatest of all time. 2007 Pats came the closest.

The 2007 failed though. If you don't win it all you don't deserve to be even mentioned imo.

Magico Gonzalez

Their regular season is full of average sides and a win against a seahawks team completely on their knees. They could so very nearly have blown a big lead against the seahawks in the playoff game.

Good side, not an all time great. Not in the conversation.

lbj666

Augme wrote: »

Going unbeaten in the regular season means nothing if you don't win it all. As for winning multiple superbowls, does that make you the best or just the most consistent?

As for the 2010 packers - I just can't accept a 10-6 regular team being thought of that highly.



The 2007 failed though. If you don't win it all you don't deserve to be even mentioned imo.

Yep but they were one drive away from being arguably the best , since they lost the don't come into the equation.

lbj666

Augme wrote: »

Going unbeaten in the regular season means nothing if you don't win it all. As for winning multiple superbowls, does that make you the best or just the most consistent?

As for the 2010 packers - I just can't accept a 10-6 regular team being thought of that highly.



The 2007 failed though. If you don't win it all you don't deserve to be even mentioned imo.

Yep but they were one drive away from being arguably the best , since they lost they don't come into the equation.

golfball37

Augme wrote: »

Going unbeaten in the regular season means nothing if you don't win it all. As for winning multiple superbowls, does that make you the best or just the most consistent?

As for the 2010 packers - I just can't accept a 10-6 regular team being thought of that highly.



The 2007 failed though. If you don't win it all you don't deserve to be even mentioned imo.

The Pack went to Atlanta in the play offs that year and didn't punt once, they were an awesome outfit when on form. They won their first 12 games of the following season also, a super super team- especially on offence.

adrian522

Augme wrote: »

Going unbeaten in the regular season means nothing if you don't win it all. As for winning multiple superbowls, does that make you the best or just consistent?

Well it makes you better than winning 1 superbowl, or none in the case of Carloina so far.

Off the top of my head, Green Bay under Lombardi, early 70's Dolphins, mid to late 70's Steelers, 49ers in the 80's, Cowboys in the early 90's, Patriots in the 2000's all have a better claim to that title than the Panthers.

Dodge

Magico Gonzalez wrote: »

Their regular season is full of average sides

That applies to practically every team in history. There's very of "14 wins and above" teams that get tough rides. Panthers ar getting underrated because no one saw it coming. Remember back to week 7/8 and all the talk was Broncos, Pats and even the fecking Falcons at one stage.

All year power ranks have has the Cardinals and Seahawks ranked above them and the Panthers smashed them both (they'd have kept going v Seattle if they needed to).

Some of the great Patriot teams are a pretty good comp for these Panthers. ****e WRs but great o-line play, great d-line and line backers, an outstanding DB and a QB that looks like he can do no wrong. Oh and a coach that isn't afraid to go try win a game

Knex*

golfball37 wrote: »

The Pack went to Atlanta in the play offs that year and didn't punt once, they were an awesome outfit when on form. They won their first 12 games of the following season also, a super super team- especially on offence.

Giants went there the year after, en route to a 2nd Super Bowl in four years, and shut them out on defense. Atlanta's only score was a safety.

Neither team came close to Patriots achievement in the regular season in 07, however.

Prior to this year, Panthers weren't remotely fancied. Yeah, they had an easy schedule, but nobody expected this from Cam and that offense. Lets see how they fair over the next few years, before we start rating them as a team. (even then, the constant need to pencil in a "GOAT" is infuriating to me)

Hell, the Bills reaching 4 Super Bowls in a row should put them up there with some of the greatest teams assembled. Just because they didn't win one, especially when you look at the games, doesn't mean you can just rule them out. That is probably even more infuriating than those who disregard Dan Marino from the elite QB conversation.

golfball37

Knex. wrote: »

Giants went there the year after, en route to a 2nd Super Bowl in four years, and shut them out on defense. Atlanta's only score was a safety.

Neither team came close to Patriots achievement in the regular season in 07, however.

Prior to this year, Panthers weren't remotely fancied. Yeah, they had an easy schedule, but nobody expected this from Cam and that offense. Lets see how they fair over the next few years, before we start rating them as a team. (even then, the constant need to pencil in a "GOAT" is infuriating to me)

Hell, the Bills reaching 4 Super Bowls in a row should put them up there with some of the greatest teams assembled. Just because they didn't win one, especially when you look at the games, doesn't mean you can just rule them out. That is probably even more infuriating than those who disregard Dan Marino from the elite QB conversation.

Good points- Ask any Dolphin fan of lore and they'll say the 74 team was better than the 73 unbeaten team. The narrow minded view however is that they simply can't be.

Augme

Some good points about the 07 Patriots alright.

I hate to say it, but the Bears in 85 were pretty incredible.

golfball37

Deleted User wrote: »

I hate to say it, but the Bears in 85 were pretty incredible.

The current Panthers coach wouldn't disagree with you on that one.:)

adrian522

Deleted User wrote: »

I hate to say it, but the Bears in 85 were pretty incredible.

There's an ESPN 30 for 30 about to be released in the US on the 85 bears, should be really interesting, getting good reviews from those who have seen a preview screening.

Knex*

Man, I love watching clips of defense from back then. Obviously as a Giants fan, seeing the Big Blue Wrecking Crew, and Lawrence Taylor, absolutely man handle offenses, is great fun.

That Bears unit was something else, though.

Seeing Broncos v Pats, and having the Hawks defense in recent years, and even Panthers this year, is something I really enjoy, but part of me wishes I had been around to see football before they went all over sensitive and pass happy.

Knex*

Man, I love watching clips of defense from back then. Obviously as a Giants fan, seeing the Big Blue Wrecking Crew, and Lawrence Taylor, absolutely man handle offenses, is great fun.

That Bears unit was something else, though.

Seeing Broncos v Pats, and having the Hawks defense in recent years, and even Panthers this year, is something I really enjoy, but part of me wishes I had been around to see football before they went all over sensitive and pass happy.

It's very hard to compare different teams with different achievements over different decades. But I think it's easy enough to say that Bears team was the greatest to only win one Superbowl during their domination. Now how that matches up sides that won a few, Lombardis Packers, Steelers in 70s, 49ers, Cowboys, Pats etc. is hard to say.

poldebruin

The greatest team in any single year that I have actually watched, were the 1989 San Francisco 49ers, culminating in them demolish Denver 55-10 in the Superbowl. I know a lot of people mention the 1994 version led by Steve Young beating San Diego in the Super Bowl, but I just don't remember them being as dominant and unstoppable.

I think I recall that statistically the 1991 Washington team (Mark Rypen QBing), which beat Buffalo in the SB that year are amongst the best, which strikes me as odd, as they are rarely mentioned in any of these type of discussions.

Carolina have had a great year (and an amzing second half to the year) but in the era of free agency, even a team with a 15-1 record will not compare to any of the dominant teams of the 70/80s. The top teams in those eras had stacked rosters (and could hold them together for years at a time) - impossible in the modern era

Dodge

Football outsiders rank the 1991 Redskins as the best in their DVOA ranks

They have the 2007 Patriots as 2nd

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/dvoa-ratings/2014/historical-dvoa-estimates

Dodge

Football outsiders rank the 1991 Redskins as the best in their DVOA ranks

They have the 2007 Patriots as 2nd

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/dvoa-ratings/2014/historical-dvoa-estimates

golfball37

Knex. wrote: »

Man, I love watching clips of defense from back then. Obviously as a Giants fan, seeing the Big Blue Wrecking Crew, and Lawrence Taylor, absolutely man handle offenses, is great fun.

That Bears unit was something else, though.

Seeing Broncos v Pats, and having the Hawks defense in recent years, and even Panthers this year, is something I really enjoy, but part of me wishes I had been around to see football before they went all over sensitive and pass happy.

Singletary's hit on Eric Dickerson in the 85 play offs is the stuff of legends. Richard Dent was my favourite of all them all.

Realt Dearg Sec

Talking about when the Bears were good makes me sad. 30 years ago this week.

Worth remembering that for all the dominance of that D, they did also have one of the greatest RBs of all time as well.

But I'm fully convinced that half the reason they were so popular in Ireland (because when you mention the Bears to non football fans it's STILL often the only thing they know about the team) was...the fridge.

HigginsJ

Knex. wrote: »

Man, I love watching clips of defense from back then. Obviously as a Giants fan, seeing the Big Blue Wrecking Crew, and Lawrence Taylor, absolutely man handle offenses, is great fun.

That Bears unit was something else, though.

Seeing Broncos v Pats, and having the Hawks defense in recent years, and even Panthers this year, is something I really enjoy, but part of me wishes I had been around to see football before they went all over sensitive and pass happy.

I'm with you on that one, great D is always something I enjoy more.

eagle eye

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Talking about when the Bears were good makes me sad. 30 years ago this week.

Worth remembering that for all the dominance of that D, they did also have one of the greatest RBs of all time as well.

But I'm fully convinced that half the reason they were so popular in Ireland (because when you mention the Bears to non football fans it's STILL often the only thing they know about the team) was...the fridge.

The Refrigerator Perry certainly did catch on over here. Everybody was talking about him, not just about how big he was but how athletic he was for a guy so big.
I heard his name mentioned by people every year, in fact I think I still hear it every year when I come across some guy of a similar age to me or slightly older who doesn't watch the game but he still remembers Perry.

You could be right about that. At the very least he was the reason a lot of people started supporting the Bears. Timing is everything isn't it!?

Dodge

I'd go so far as to say that for a period in the 80s he was the only NFLer that most people in Ireland could name

eagle eye

Dodge wrote: »

I'd go so far as to say that for a period in the 80s he was the only NFLer that most people in Ireland could name

Montana was at least as well known as him.

It's hard to put them up there even if they win to be honest even in the last few years the 16-0 pats where more dominant a team than iv seen in my time watching the nfl and that's before you go back to the 85 bears or the Bill Walsh 9ers or the 90s Cowboys. As of now they are probably not as all time great a team as the current Seahawks

Augme

Augme wrote: »

Going unbeaten in the regular season means nothing if you don't win it all. As for winning multiple superbowls, does that make you the best or just consistent?

As for the 2010 packers - I just can't accept a 10-6 regular team being thought of that highly.



The 2007 failed though. If you don't win it all you don't deserve to be even mentioned imo.

That's nonsense any team can lose a game that team lost one all year that's insane (and they where massively unlucky in even loading that) that pats team was incredible and they are in the convo with any team in history

Dodge

eagle eye wrote: »

Montana was at least as well known as him.

Not among the general population. My dad could name "The Fridge". I don't think he could name you one other player before or since

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman

lbj666 wrote: »

Yep but they were one drive away from being arguably the best , since they lost the don't come into the equation.

Great team, unfortunately they'll never be remembered as such because they lost.

Too early to evaluate any team's potential claim to GOAT considering they have won nothing yet. Denver wont roll over, Cam has to protect that ball better in tight situations against this Denver defence.

Funny thing is if Denver win this will enhance Peyton's legacy but they will only be winning because of their defence. Funny how football works sometimes

eagle eye

I'd say the 2004 Patriots were one of the greatest. They didn't get the top seed with a 14-2 record but destroyed the Colts in the divisional round and went to Pittsburgh and put them to the sword in the AFCCG before beating the Eagles in the Superbowl.

LuckyLloyd

The reality is that the 2007 Patriots were probably the greatest of all time. A lucky catch from Tyree obfuscates that, but ideally the debate would be mature enough to understand it.

Dodge

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The reality is that the 2007 Patriots were probably the greatest of all time. A lucky catch from Tyree obfuscates that, but ideally the debate would be mature enough to understand it.

I love this line of thinking. Any one who doesn't agree with me is clearly immature

Patriots got lucky several times in the regular season that year (Ravens, Eagles) and could even have lost to the Giants in Week 17.

They sure would have been a great champion but they were beaten by a better team on the day. If Tyree doesn't make that catch, I'd bet Eli converts on the 4th and 5 play on the next down and they win anyway. My claim is as valid as any "lucky" claims

LuckyLloyd

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The reality is that the 2007 Patriots were probably the greatest of all time. A lucky catch from Tyree obfuscates that, but ideally the debate would be mature enough to understand it.

That's not the reality at all but it's a valid argument.

There is no reality just possibilitys

LuckyLloyd

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The reality is that the 2007 Patriots were probably the greatest of all time. A lucky catch from Tyree obfuscates that, but ideally the debate would be mature enough to understand it.

Oh yeah?

The fact that the scores were so close that one lucky catch made all the difference says something.

Check out when the Pats scored their late TD v the 85 Bears in Super Bowl XX. It didn't make any difference at all...the Bears were up 44-3. They won 2 post season ties with shut outs. They didn't leave games close enough for luck to matter, they crushed their rivals.

Jolly Red Giant

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman wrote: »

Funny thing is if Denver win this will enhance Peyton's legacy but they will only be winning because of their defence. Funny how football works sometimes

And the person most likely to lose the game for the Broncos is Manning by making mistakes. If Manning doesn't make mistakes the Broncos have a good chance. Few would have expected to say that a couple of years ago.

Jolly Red Giant

Deleted User wrote: »

Check out when the Pats scored their late TD v the 85 Bears in Super Bowl XX. It didn't make any difference at all...the Bears were up 44-3. They won 2 post season ties with shut outs. They didn't leave games close enough for luck to matter, they crushed their rivals.

The 85 Bears were seriously good - and it was a great defence to watch play the game.

The modern defences have a tougher time because of the rules - you can't touch a receiver anymore.

golfball37

I think the pats team of 03/04 vintage won more than 17 consecutive games and two v mans to boot. This is imo the best Patriot outfit ever.
As Carolina showed this year though that 07 team did some job even getting to one great catch away from perfect. Should have lost a few of their later games, the giants sent out a warning with their show against them. San Diego had them in trouble too I think.

D9Male

eagle eye wrote: »

Montana was at least as well known as him.

When I was a kid in the 80's we used to play American football. This basically consisted of rolling around the garden kicking the sh1t out of one another. We all wanted to be "The Refrigerator".

I wouldn't have had a clue who Joe Montana was.

poldebruin

I think to lay a claim to being the greatest single season team, you have to have at least won that years superbowl at a minimum. Very hard to make a case for being the greatest without the ring.

Maybe we are talking about a great team, but certainly not in the conversation for greatest without the trophy.

poldebruin

poldebruin wrote: »

I think to lay a claim to being the greatest single season team, you have to have at least won that years superbowl at a minimum. Very hard to make a case for being the greatest without the ring.

Maybe we are talking about a great team, but certainly not in the conversation for greatest without the trophy.

But bar the Dolphins (who nobody really believes are the greatest bar themselves) every team has lost games just because that pats team one loss was in the Super Bowl (against a team that they had already beaten) is irrelevant

Itssoeasy

adrian522 wrote: »

Well it makes you better than winning 1 superbowl, or none in the case of Carloina so far.

Off the top of my head, Green Bay under Lombardi, early 70's Dolphins, mid to late 70's Steelers, 49ers in the 80's, Cowboys in the early 90's, Patriots in the 2000's all have a better claim to that title than the Panthers.

One word DYNASTIES.