Pressure needs to be put on India to end its backward caste system

steddyeddy

Did you know Europe, France and Spain mainly used to have a caste system? Well not so much a system as a separate caste. There used to exist a peoples called the Cagots who couldn't enter the same trades as the rest of the peoples of the time. Their religion was no different to that of the rest of the populace nor did they look different. The reason for their discrimination is lost in the sands of time. In Europe this system died out hundreds of years ago but in India it's a reality for millions.

Last week Rohith Vemula, a member of the DALIT (once called untouchables) was protesting his suspension from Hyderabad Center University in southern India.The next day, the 26-year-old PhD student hanged himself, leaving behind a suicide note that read, “My birth is my fatal accident.

Now the caste is largely divided by circumstances of birth (Wealth) and children of different levels of wealth attend different schools ect, other factors like the tone of their skin allegedly mark them out. I think this is something the UN should put pressure on India to change. There is no real caste in Inida, it's a system designed and believed by idiots. Article from the Latimes.

The next day, the 26-year-old PhD student hanged himself, leaving behind a suicide note that read, “My birth is my fatal accident.”
Vemula’s death Sunday has sparked an outcry and renewed a nationwide debate over the treatment of Dalits, the lowliest members of India’s ancient, stratified caste system, at the country’s institutions of higher education.
Vemula and other Dalit student activists at the publicly funded university had clashed for months with a rival group, the student wing of India’s conservative Hindu governing party, the Bharatiya Janata Party, or BJP.
The Dalit students had held events promoting social liberalism and opposing the death penalty for a convicted terrorist. Word reached some BJP government officials, one of whom complained to the federal education ministry that the campus had turned into “a den of casteist, extremist and anti-national politics.”
See the most-read stories this hour >>

In September, following the letter, administrators suspended Vemula and four other Dalit students. Last month, after the suspension was upheld, the students were kicked out of their dormitory and launched a hunger strike. Vemula wrote to the university vice chancellor, asking to be reinstated, but in vain.
“Rohith and four other scholars were sleeping and bathing in the open, like outcasts,” said Kolagani Ashok Kumar, Vemula’s roommate. The university on Thursday canceled the suspensions of the other four students.
Although caste lines are slowly fading in modern India, Dalits – who were once so looked down upon they were known as “untouchables” – say they continue to face discrimination and abuse at Indian universities


A survey of first-year students at the Mumbai campus of the prestigious Indian Institute of Technology in 2014 found that 56% felt discriminated against in some manner. While official statistics are not kept, students say at least 20 Dalit students at top-flight universities have committed suicide over the past decade, often following complaints of mistreatment.
At the Tata Institute of Social Sciences in Mumbai, where 300 students boycotted classes following Vemula’s death, student Yashwant Zagade, who is of a lower caste, said he and others are “looked down upon” and verbally hazed by classmates.
“Even teachers taunt us,” he said.
Most Dalit students come from poor families with little educational background, many having been taught in vernacular languages. A complex quota system has dramatically improved the chances of the best students to gain enrollment in universities, although they often struggle in English-language classes.
There is “no effort to make them feel comfortable in our educational institutions,” Zagade said. When Dalit activists demand their rights, they are branded as subversive, he said.
Indian universities tend to be bastions of the establishment, with public institutions often falling under the sway of political appointees. Last year, students at the country’s most venerable cinema school held a months-long strike to protest the selection of right-wingers with dubious filmmaking credentials to head the school’s governing body.
Friends of Vemula, a second-year PhD student in life sciences, said that last July, following complaints over his activism by the BJP-aligned student group, the university stopped paying his monthly stipend of roughly $400, his main source of income. The school blamed administrative delays.
The clash escalated following the letter by a BJP government minister, Bandaru Dattatraya, who objected in particular to Vemula’s stand against the hanging of Yakub Memon, who was convicted in a series of deadly bomb blasts in Mumbai in 1993.
Education Minister Smriti Irani said this week that Vemula’s death was not a caste issue. But opponents have questioned why BJP leaders had gotten involved in student politics at a relatively obscure university.
After administrators opened an inquiry against Vemula and four other Dalit student activists for allegedly assaulting a member of the BJP student wing in August, senior government officials in New Delhi made multiple inquiries over months to demand the university punish them, according to media reports.
Kancha Ilaiah, an author and Dalit activist, said caste-based discrimination persists because many upper-caste Indians cannot accept a Dalit as a scholar. He added that the system of political leaders appointing university administrators makes it less likely that student complaints are given a proper hearing.
“How can the vice chancellor work autonomously when the ruling party has made him in charge of the university?” Ilaiah said.
In the dorm room where Vemula hanged himself, police found a long, lofty and sometimes confusing suicide note that hinted at deep psychological torment.
“I am not hurt at this moment,” the note read. “I am not sad. I am just empty. Unconcerned about myself. That’s pathetic. And that’s why I am doing this.”

Azalea

I read that the real reason a big deal was made about that unspeakable attack on (and ultimate killing of) the young woman on the bus was because she was from a high caste.

Nodin

In theory its illegal. Unfortunately the theory doesn't meet the reality often enough.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

India is one country towards which I will not support any charities until they sort themselves out. A huge divide between rich and poor, a nuclear arsenal and a space programme and yet we need to send them aid? No thanks.

Nodin

Azalea wrote: »

I read that the real reason a big deal was made about that unspeakable attack on (and ultimate killing of) the young woman on the bus was because she was from a high caste.

To an extent. Attacks on lower caste women by higher caste men are common, sometimes organised as an attack on a community for refusing its caste obligations.

Azalea

Pierce Broad Troop wrote: »

India is one country towards which I will not support any charities until they sort themselves out. A huge divide between rich and poor, a nuclear arsenal and a space programme and yet we need to send them aid? No thanks.

That's exactly why I send charity to the poor of India - letting them sort themselves (that "them" does not include the powerless poor) doesn't change the circumstances of the impoverished.

Mena

Pierce Broad Troop wrote: »

India is one country towards which I will not support any charities until they sort themselves out. A huge divide between rich and poor, a nuclear arsenal and a space programme and yet we need to send them aid? No thanks.

That's a curious stance. Punish the weak because of the government? Really? Or do you mean specifically government run charities?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Caste sprung up out of racism towards conquered ethnic groups in India many centuries ago and has no place in a country trying to position itself among the developed nations of the world.

lazybones32

Does anyone really think an Irish delegation or recommendation is going to change someone's mind in India?

Pick a realistic cause.

lazybones32

Does anyone really think an Irish delegation or recommendation is going to change someone's mind in India?

Pick a realistic cause.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Azalea wrote: »

That's exactly why I send charity to the poor of India - letting them sort themselves (that "them" does not include the powerless poor) doesn't change the circumstances of the impoverished.

Oh I get where you're coming from but we are not helping by supporting the system. Fundamental change will not be brought about by aid. Governments need to act. Both the Indian government and all other states. Foreign governments need to suspend aid until the Indian government acts. Do you think the poor of this country should be left to the mercy of charities or does the government have a duty to enhance their lives? Would be abide the caste system here and turn a blind eye by giving a few bob to charities to care for these people?

Victor

Pierce Broad Troop wrote: »

India is one country towards which I will not support any charities until they sort themselves out. A huge divide between rich and poor, a nuclear arsenal and a space programme and yet we need to send them aid? No thanks.

So you are supporting the status quo?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Victor wrote: »

So you are supporting the status quo?

No, I have over many years, actively petitioned NGOs and state departments to put pressure on the Indian government to act on this issue. Don't put words on my mouth please. In no way would I support the caste system. Charity does not get people out of the black hole of the system.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

lazybones32 wrote: »

Does anyone really think an Irish delegation or recommendation is going to change someone's mind in India?

Pick a realistic cause.

You know you're right. What can anybody do? Let's just give up and let things roll as they will. :rolleyes:

steddyeddy

I think the point about charities is that the Indian government have a space program but lack a sewage system in many areas. It might be more effective to petition the government ect.

lazybones32

Pierce Broad Troop wrote: »

You know you're right. What can anybody do? Let's just give up and let things roll as they will. :rolleyes:

Yes. Let the Indian's reform their Society as they see fit and not have some internet warrior in Ireland try solve their problems by nagging them.
What's next: A campaign to pressure the USA to bring down its murder rates and make sure Black people get awarded Oscars?

steddyeddy

lazybones32 wrote: »

Yes. Let the Indian's reform their Society as they see fit and not have some internet warrior in Ireland try solve their problems by nagging them.
What's next: A campaign to pressure the USA to bring down its murder rates and make sure Black people get awarded Oscars?

If the world let South Africa reform as they see fit they might not have democracy today.

On another note I think you're confusing discussion with campaign. This thread is an example of the former and not the latter.

mynameis905

steddyeddy wrote: »

If the world let South Africa reform as they see fit they might not have democracy today.

On another note I think you're confusing discussion with campaign. This thread is an example of the former and not the latter.

The world probably should have let South Africa reform by itself rather than supporting Mandela. That country has gone to hell in a handbasket since 1994.

lazybones32

Steddyeddy: the thread title doesn't say anything about discussion... "pressure needs to be put on India..." is how it starts.

If you want to spend your Saturday's theoretically changing the World into a better place, have at it, but by tonight no positive difference will be made and the day will be wasted.

steddyeddy

mynameis905 wrote: »

The world probably should have let South Africa reform by itself rather than supporting Mandela. That country has gone to hell in a handbasket since 1994.

Correlation or causation?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

lazybones32 wrote: »

Yes. Let the Indian's reform their Society as they see fit and not have some internet warrior in Ireland try solve their problems by nagging them.
What's next: A campaign to pressure the USA to bring down its murder rates and make sure Black people get awarded Oscars?

Smart! Have you been out there? I have. Have you actually tried to improve thing? I have. Internet warrior? Oh come on, you must try harder.

I have no interest on talking to Mr. Obama, nor the Oscars, and it's a spurious comparison.

Who said to let the Indian government do as they see fit? Quite the opposite. Perhaps read the thread again.

.45auto

How about we the west start minding our own business and stop meddling in other countries affairs

mohawk

steddyeddy wrote: »

I think the point about charities is that the Indian government have a space program but lack a sewage system in many areas. It might be more effective to petition the government ect.

Similar situation in some African countries. Government has plenty money to buy weapons and yet charities are on the ground trying their best to make lives bearable for the poorest people. Why build schools and hospitals when some charity can do that for you? I think that if charities stopped doing their work the unfortunate truth is some governments would continue to neglect their poor.

For the most part any change in India needs to come from the Indian people. Other governments can try to put pressure on the Indian government, but there are plenty of people in Indian society who don't want change and will resist it. It's a very tricky business trying to effect change in other countries.

steddyeddy

.45auto wrote: »

How about we the west start minding our own business and stop meddling in other countries affairs

I think people take preeminence over countries frankly. So I don't care about political boundaries when people are being mistreated.

Eugene Norman

Cultural systems are hard to change. This guy was after all a PHD student so India, a fairly respectable democracy is trying to change.

steddyeddy

mohawk wrote: »

Similar situation in some African countries. Government has plenty money to buy weapons and yet charities are on the ground trying their best to make lives bearable for the poorest people. Why build schools and hospitals when some charity can do that for you? I think that if charities stopped doing their work the unfortunate truth is some governments would continue to neglect their poor.

For the most part any change in India needs to come from the Indian people. Other governments can try to put pressure on the Indian government, but there are plenty of people in Indian society who don't want change and will resist it. It's a very tricky business trying to effect change in other countries.

I used to live in Tanzania and Kenya and seen exactly that. NGOs failing because they were pushing against the tide of government policy.

Ultimately these charities fail and sometimes the result of that is more attention being brought to government inefficiencies.

I agree a lot of the time change comes from within a society but in Tanzania's case that change would be a lot more violent than people would like.

lazybones32

Pierce Broad Troop wrote: »

Smart! Have you been out there? I have. Have you actually tried to improve thing? I have. Internet warrior? Oh come on, you must try harder.

I have no interest on talking to Mr. Obama, nor the Oscars, and it's a spurious comparison.

Who said to let the Indian government do as they see fit? Quite the opposite. Perhaps read the thread again.

I don't care where you've been. Unless you have influence over a substantial amount of Indian people, or policy-makers turn to you for advice, your little crusade will peter out. I doubt the influential people of Indian society are regulars on Boards but carry on as if your ideas are going to change something. I have better things to do.

Boskowski

Does it really though? I know that kind of stuff is not in line with the standards of our western society and it seems unjust and backwards to us and a lot of it objectively is. But the things its not our society and our culture.
Why do we feel the need to impose our own standards on everyone else? Why can't we let other cultures and societies get on with their thing and make their progress in their own time? Because ultimately pressure will most of the time just create resentment and counter pressure and is likely to achieve the exact opposite. Just look at the middle east. I dare say our approach of hegemony and constant meddling contributed largely to the radicalisation of that place.
And in fairness our super duper society is hardly without fault anyway. Most of the time we intervene in the name of progress and democracy that's just a facade and all we really care about is bringing them in line for better exploitation of their resources and workforce. Wall Street ueber alles kind of thing.

The kinda news the OP is referring to doesn't make for nice hearing, but tbh I'm in two minds about it.

.

The caste system in India has been diminishing at an ever increasing rate since the 90's and it's this change that ironically brings about the increase in hate crimes against Dalit people. Changing the status quo in any country can result in decades of disimprovement for the majority while a minority do well in education or politics and change the system from within by their very presence.

Don't forget that Mayawati was the Chief minister of Uttar Pradesh in the 90's and served four terms. She is a revered figure among Dalit people, an unthinkable event 100 years ago and the kind of role model needed to encourage people to strive beyond their allotted place in life. It'll change, and it is changing, but the pace is slow and is culturally unlikely to respond well to efforts to speed it up.

India is not an homogeneous culture, the situation varies within States, and from State to State. I would not withdraw charity that targets the poorest of any country, especially not on the basis of what the Government considers a priority.

.45auto

steddyeddy wrote: »

I think people take preeminence over countries frankly. So I don't care about political boundaries when people are being mistreated.

Dont see you do much about it other than moaning on boards

steddyeddy

Boskowski wrote: »

Does it really though? I know that kind of stuff is not in line with the standards of our western society and it seems unjust and backwards to us and a lot of it objectively is. But the things its not our society and our culture.
Why do we feel the need to impose our own standards on everyone else? Why can't we let other cultures and societies get on with their thing and make their progress in their own time? Because ultimately pressure will most of the time just create resentment and counter pressure and is likely to achieve the exact opposite. Just look at the middle east. I dare say our approach of hegemony and constant meddling contributed largely to the radicalisation of that place.
And in fairness our super duper society is hardly without fault anyway. Most of the time we intervene in the name of progress and democracy that's just a facade and all we really care about is bringing them in line for better exploitation of their resources and workforce. Wall Street ueber alles kind of thing.

The kinda news the OP is referring to doesn't make for nice hearing, but tbh I'm in two minds about it.

Well for me it's the fact that I put people above countries and political boundaries. To me they're not Indians or Dalit or whatever caste they think they are. They're people.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

.45auto wrote: »

Dont see you do much about it other than moaning on boards

And you have done....?

I love this assumption that, because someone posts about something, it doesn't exist for them in 'real life' or that that they obviously don't feel strongly enough about it to have taken any other action than to post.

What is the basis for your assertions?

steddyeddy

.45auto wrote: »

Dont see you do much about it other than moaning on boards

How do you know dude? A bit of a stupid assumption no? I don't see you going about your everyday life but I assume you have one.

Azalea

lazybones32 wrote: »

Yes. Let the Indian's reform their Society as they see fit and not have some internet warrior in Ireland try solve their problems by nagging them.

Nobody here is nagging Indian society - and nobody here can anyway. The original poster said it was his opinion the UN should put pressure on the Indian government.

mynameis905 wrote: »

The world probably should have let South Africa reform by itself rather than supporting Mandela. That country has gone to hell in a handbasket since 1994.

Yeah apartheid, great craic

.45auto wrote: »

How about we the west start minding our own business and stop meddling in other countries affairs

Expressing objection to people being treated terribly - down with that sort of thing.

Boskowski

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well for me it's the fact that I put people above countries and political boundaries. To me they're not Indians or Dalit or whatever caste they think they are. They're people.

Well I agree with you in one way, but what about the rest of my post? Especially the bits that come right after what you highlighted? Don't you agree that outside pressure often achieves the exact opposite? And of course there is also the question of what actually makes us believe we have the right to interfere in the first place?

steddyeddy

Boskowski wrote: »

Well I agree with you in one way, but what about the rest of my post? Especially the bits that come right after what you highlighted? Don't you agree that outside pressure often achieves the exact opposite? And of course there is also the question of what actually makes us believe we have the right to interfere in the first place?

Well I believe I have more of a right to be concerned about these people than the perpetrators have to mistreat them whatever country they're in.

Outside pressures have helped in relation to Northern Ireland and South Africa to name a few places. Some times it makes it worse but sometimes it helps.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

lazybones32 wrote: »

I don't care where you've been. Unless you have influence over a substantial amount of Indian people, or policy-makers turn to you for advice, your little crusade will peter out. I doubt the influential people of Indian society are regulars on Boards but carry on as if your ideas are going to change something. I have better things to do.

You really would be better employed in taking a few minutes to read what was actually posted. Who said anybody on Indian reads Boards? Pathetic uninformed replies. You have no idea at what level I and others have discussed this. I have no crusade. This subject doesn't consume me. I have an opinion and have tried at least to effect change. End of.

Azalea

Nobody should ever discuss any issue again unless it is directly helping the people affected, or, because it is the same as meddling, even though it is just a discussion among people thousands of miles away! :mad:

lazybones32

lazybones32 wrote: »

I don't care where you've been. Unless you have influence over a substantial amount of Indian people, or policy-makers turn to you for advice, your little crusade will peter out. I doubt the influential people of Indian society are regulars on Boards but carry on as if your ideas are going to change something. I have better things to do.

Yes, it's so much cooler to do nothing, care nothing, and to despise those who do.

My own mother effected change in a very significant way in one corner of India, twenty years ago. She made a lasting change for the better for the lives of some of the most marginalised of the most marginialised. She would never have been able to do that if she had your attitude.

Azalea

Candie wrote: »

Yes, it's so much cooler to do nothing, care nothing, and to despise those who do.

Thats what it boils down to - looking "cooler than thou". Its fashionable to show a lack of compassion.

steddyeddy

Candie wrote: »

Yes, it's so much cooler to do nothing, care nothing, and to despise those who do.

My own mother effected change in a very significant way in one corner of India, twenty years ago. She made a lasting change for the better for the lives of some of the most marginalised of the most marginialised. She would never have been able to do that if she had your attitude.

Very well done to her Candie. You should be proud of her!

Azalea

Azalea wrote: »

Thats what it boils down to - looking "cooler than thou". Its fashionable to show a lack of compassion.

Of all the things I don't understand about people, apathy is one of the biggest.

And the only thing worse than apathy is the self-congratulatory contempt of anyone who tries to do anything for others, as I'm convinced it's a trait only the most selfish of people have. It's not cool, but it is telling.

steddyeddy

steddyeddy wrote: »

Very well done to her Candie. You should be proud of her!

It's only one of her many achievements, and I am very proud of my parents.:)

lazybones32

Azalea wrote: »

Nobody here is nagging Indian society - and nobody here can anyway. The original poster said it was his opinion the UN should put pressure on the Indian government.

And it is my opinion that real change only comes from within: let the Indian people reform their culture from within, at their own pace and not at the behest of the UN (or its Irish branch, Steadyeddy + Pierce Broad Troop - who by next week may probably have cooled off on the desire for justice for the suffering people of India)

Pierce Broad Troop wrote: »

You really would be better employed in taking a few minutes to read what was actually posted. Who said anybody on Indian reads Boards? Pathetic uninformed replies.

I've read enough....you and eddy, in Ireland, want some people from other Countries (UN) to tell people in another Country (India) to change they way they are because you and eddy think it is wrong. I think that you and eddy should either move to India and work from within or shut up about how you think the world should be improved (especially if you are not going to move to India or join the UN and do something instead of yapping)

Pierce Broad Troop wrote: »

You have no idea at what level I and others have discussed this.

Something tells me that if you had discussed it at an important level, you wouldn't be posting on Boards about it...but hey, you could be bestest buds with kofi for all I know (or care).

lazybones32

Candie wrote: »

Yes, it's so much cooler to do nothing, care nothing, and to despise those who do.

There's always at least one who wades in late, doesn't read the posts (or reads them wrong and comes to the inevitable wrong conclusion) and then posts tripe that I correct.
My posts are derisive of those who want to start a thread on pressuring another Country and its people to change something - something which is their own responsibility. This is talking, not action and is not a realistic option for improving the situation of people. If no-one participating in this thread has access to policymakers in Indian Society or UN delegates, then this is not going to realistically change one iota of India's problems, is it? Maybe try reading what I wrote before talking out your a$$?

Candie wrote: »

My own mother effected change in a very significant way in one corner of India, twenty years ago. She made a lasting change for the better for the lives of some of the most marginalised of the most marginialised. She would never have been able to do that if she had your attitude.

Tell your mom I was asking for her.
I don't need to go to India to help people - there are many of them here in Ireland. When I see people who need help, I don't start threads about canvassing the UN to help them...

Irish Praetorian

Azalea wrote: »

Thats what it boils down to - looking "cooler than thou". Its fashionable to show a lack of compassion.

If I might offer a riposte, it's not so much that 'lack of compassion' is cool, it's that given how previous attempts at 'helping' the rest of the world like Afghanistan and Iraq have panned out, given how attempts at non-intervention like Syria have worked out and how attempts at middle line like Libya have turned out, it seems like the West is at fault whether it does something or does nothing, so much better to do nothing.

.45auto

steddyeddy wrote: »

How do you know dude? A bit of a stupid assumption no? I don't see you going about your everyday life but I assume you have one.

I obviously have no life if im arguing with you all day

Azalea

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

If I might offer a riposte, it's not so much that 'lack of compassion' is cool, it's that given how previous attempts at 'helping' the rest of the world like Afghanistan and Iraq have panned out, given how attempts at non-intervention like Syria have worked out and how attempts at middle line like Libya have turned out, it seems like the West is at fault whether it does something or does nothing, so much better to do nothing.

I do understand there is no point in saying "Someone should do something" - I agree that was a bit misguided by the OP.
But people are even having a go at just discussion of the topic here, and endorsing that people suffering should be left to suffer with the pretty weak reasoning that it's nothing to do with us. That could be said about any issue throughout history.

steddyeddy

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Cultural systems are hard to change. This guy was after all a PHD student so India, a fairly respectable democracy is trying to change.

He was a PhD student but it looks like he faced massive discrimination to get there. All castes should have access to the same schools and opportunities ect.

steddyeddy

lazybones32 wrote: »

There's always at least one who wades in late, doesn't read the posts (or reads them wrong and comes to the inevitable wrong conclusion) and then posts tripe that I correct.
My posts are derisive of those who want to start a thread on pressuring another Country and its people to change something - something which is their own responsibility. This is talking, not action and is not a realistic option for improving the situation of people. If no-one participating in this thread has access to policymakers in Indian Society or UN delegates, then this is not going to realistically change one iota of India's problems, is it? Maybe try reading what I wrote before talking out your a$$?


Tell your mom I was asking for her.
I don't need to go to India to help people - there are many of them here in Ireland. When I see people who need help, I don't start threads about canvassing the UN to help them...

When I was living in Ireland I actually spent a lot of my time trying to address educational discrimination against children from low income backgrounds regarding the type of school they attended ect. I certainly did my part.