Irish rail fine appeal- help?

Elemonator

Hi guys,

Wondering if I can get some advice here on appealing Irish Rail fines. I was fined last night after I forgot to tag on the leap card (the gates were already open so it didn't cross my mind, thats usually my mental trigger). I do understand I'm in the wrong by the way. I'm sure you can appreciate how this happened. I would think this happens everyday actually with a lot of people. It was only after I saw the ticket inspectors that I realised and I approached a ticket inspector told him what had happened. I am a genuine traveller so rather than let him catch me out, I approached him. He issued me with €105.90 fine. However, he said he appreciated my honestly and understood how the situation can happen as he has seen it before. He said he was corroborate my side of the story (me approaching him) if I was to appeal it. My leapcard was also seized also which I need for exams Monday! I have never been issued with a fine before, as they will see on their records. I have used my leapcard religiously since I acquired it. I've had to commute by train to school for the past 6 years and now DCU on the bus so its used very regularly.

I probably deserve the fine for being such a g**s**** but you know, genuine mistake.


Thank you

devnull

Personally even if your story is honest there is no way for the inspector to tell if you are not trying it on, they can't just take your word for it. He may suspect that you are trying one of the forms of "protected fare evasion" that is becoming more common around Europe, where evaders make sure they have a leap card, but have no intention of actually using it, but feel that it will come in helpful if they were to get caught.

It allows them to carry out one of the following:

Conditional Validation Evasion.
This is where someone avoids tagging on in the departure station, upon arriving at their destination, they will also avoid tagging off in the knowledge that they will not have to pay. If however, the gates are closed and staff are present, said person will tag off, and the card will automatically deduct €4.90 thus protecting them from the much more expensive fine. If there are no staff they walk through and pay nothing.

Gates Open Excuse
This is where someone claims that the gates were open and therefore they felt that they did not need to tag on so then they didn't need to tag on and the same for their destination station, this is despite the fact the machines when the gates are open always state that they can accept tagging on and tagging off.

Personally my view in your case is that by going to the ticket inspector you may not have actually helped yourself. Why? Because by going to the inspector you are saying that you know that you evaded, which straight away means that you cannot plead ignorance to the rules in your defence because if you were not aware that you broke the rules regarding having a valid ticket, why would you go up to the ticket inspector int he first place? The company will see this as an admission of guilt and that you going up to the inspector was trying to prevent yourself from getting a fine which you deserved.

The only thing that can possibly help you and I think it's a really slim chance, is if you can show patterns that you travel same time of day for a prolonged period of time and there is a clear tag-on and tag-off pattern for the same time that you forgot to tag on going back weeks or months. However they can also check if the gates were open at a specific time, and if they find that the gates were open every day at the same time and on other days you tagged on despite this, you have no chance, but if it was a one off they were open, maybe this will help you.

Elemonator

devnull wrote: »

Personally even if your story is honest there is no way for the inspector to tell if you are not trying it on, they can't just take your word for it. He may suspect that you are trying one of the forms of "protected fare evasion" that is becoming more common around Europe, where evaders make sure they have a leap card, but have no intention of actually using it, but feel that it will come in helpful if they were to get caught.

It allows them to carry out one of the following:

Conditional Validation Evasion.
This is where someone avoids tagging on in the departure station, upon arriving at their destination, they will also avoid tagging off in the knowledge that they will not have to pay. If however, the gates are closed and staff are present, said person will tag off, and the card will automatically deduct €4.90 thus protecting them from the much more expensive fine. If there are no staff they walk through and pay nothing.

Gates Open Excuse
This is where someone claims that the gates were open and therefore they felt that they did not need to tag on so then they didn't need to tag on and the same for their destination station, this is despite the fact the machines when the gates are open always state that they can accept tagging on and tagging off.

Personally my view in your case is that by going to the ticket inspector you may not have actually helped yourself. Why? Because by going to the inspector you are saying that you know that you evaded, which straight away means that you cannot plead ignorance to the rules in your defence because if you were not aware that you broke the rules regarding having a valid ticket, why would you go up to the ticket inspector int he first place? The company will see this as an admission of guilt and that you going up to the inspector was trying to prevent yourself from getting a fine which you deserved.

The only thing that can possibly help you and I think it's a really slim chance, is if you can show patterns that you travel same time of day for a prolonged period of time and there is a clear tag-on and tag-off pattern for the same time that you forgot to tag on going back weeks or months. However they can also check if the gates were open at a specific time, and if they find that the gates were open every day at the same time and on other days you tagged on despite this, you have no chance, but if it was a one off they were open, maybe this will help you.

Thanks for replying. Seems I shot myself in the foot then last night. I actually thought it'll be worse if I say nothing but looking back now I was going to get that fine anyway. The inspector actually did mention they could check my pattern of travel and I did mention that in my email. I hope they can go back far enough to see that I'm telling the truth however, I haven't been in college since November owing to exams.

devnull

It depends on the person really, some people might look at it that you were being honest and made a genuine mistake but the being honest and going up to the inspector can also be seen as proof that you knew exactly what you were doing.

I don't know how far they can look back, so someone else is better at answering that question than me, but I'd say the more recent the pattern, the better for sure.

jimmycrackcorm

Your appeal against the gone might be warranted if this was a one off. I.e. If your leap card shows a pattern of commuting to and from college 5 days a week for the previous weeks (discarding xmas). Any non regular gaps will raise suspicions

Elemonator

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Your appeal against the gone might be warranted if this was a one off. I.e. If your leap card shows a pattern of commuting to and from college 5 days a week for the previous weeks (discarding xmas). Any non regular gaps will raise suspicions

Aye that's the killer here. I'm a law student in first year so I don't actually be in much (about 8 hours a week). Before Xmas I was on study leave so I just hope that they can see a good bit back.

magicbastarder

what's the rationale for seizing the card?

Elemonator

magicbastarder wrote: »

what's the rationale for seizing the card?

Yeah actually I'm not sure about that. I didn't think they would be allowed. He said I'd get it back.

devnull

What colour was the card?

Elemonator

devnull wrote: »

What colour was the card?

It was a standard personalised red student leap card.

devnull

magicbastarder wrote: »

what's the rationale for seizing the card?

http://www.studentleapcard.ie/tcs/

Elemonator

devnull wrote: »

http://www.studentleapcard.ie/tcs/

The language of that makes me sound like a hardened criminal thanks fellas, v much appreciated.

Elemonator

Just noticed this. The fine says they are acting under the 2005 Act. To quote the act:

"132.—(1) Every passenger of a railway undertaking shall, on re- quest by an officer or employee of a railway undertaking, produce, and if so requested, deliver up to the officer or employee a ticket showing that his or her fare is paid and, if the fare has not been paid, shall upon request—
(a) pay, to the officer or employee—
(i) his or her fare from the place where he or she started
the journey by railway, or
(ii) such other fare for non-payment of a fare as fixed by the undertaking,
as the officer or employee decides, or
(b) give the officer or employee his or her name and address.
(2) A passenger who fails—
(a) to comply with a request under subsection (1) to deliver up a ticket,
(b) to pay the fare required under subsection (1)(a), or
(c) to give his or her name and address, if requested under
subsection (1)(b),
97
Pt.14 S.130"

When I asked could I pay the inspector, he refused. Could this be a loophole?

Elemonator

Just noticed this. The fine says they are acting under the 2005 Act. To quote the act:

"132.—(1) Every passenger of a railway undertaking shall, on re- quest by an officer or employee of a railway undertaking, produce, and if so requested, deliver up to the officer or employee a ticket showing that his or her fare is paid and, if the fare has not been paid, shall upon request—
(a) pay, to the officer or employee—
(i) his or her fare from the place where he or she started
the journey by railway, or
(ii) such other fare for non-payment of a fare as fixed by the undertaking,
as the officer or employee decides, or
(b) give the officer or employee his or her name and address.
(2) A passenger who fails—
(a) to comply with a request under subsection (1) to deliver up a ticket,
(b) to pay the fare required under subsection (1)(a), or
(c) to give his or her name and address, if requested under
subsection (1)(b),
97
Pt.14 S.130"

When I asked could I pay the inspector, he refused. Could this be a loophole?

magicbastarder

devnull wrote: »

http://www.studentleapcard.ie/tcs/

"you will not receive a refund of any remaining Travel Credit"

is that legal?

Elemonator

magicbastarder wrote: »

"you will not receive a refund of any remaining Travel Credit"

is that legal?

I don't think so. While it may or may not say on the back of the card that the card remains property of the issuer, the money on the card is mine.

flyingsnail

Elemonator wrote: »

Just noticed this. The fine says they are acting under the 2005 Act. To quote the act:

"132.—(1) Every passenger of a railway undertaking shall, on re- quest by an officer or employee of a railway undertaking, produce, and if so requested, deliver up to the officer or employee a ticket showing that his or her fare is paid and, if the fare has not been paid, shall upon request—

(a) pay, to the officer or employee—
(i) his or her fare from the place where he or she started
the journey by railway, or
(ii) such other fare for non-payment of a fare as fixed by the undertaking,
as the officer or employee decides, or

(b) give the officer or employee his or her name and address.
(2) A passenger who fails—
(a) to comply with a request under subsection (1) to deliver up a ticket,
(b) to pay the fare required under subsection (1)(a), or
(c) to give his or her name and address, if requested under
subsection (1)(b),
97
Pt.14 S.130"

When I asked could I pay the inspector, he refused. Could this be a loophole?

dont think there there is any loophole there, see the bold part

Elemonator

flyingsnail wrote: »

dont think there there is any loophole there, see the bold part

That's madness. He didn't even catch me out, I approached him and explained the situation in a very apologetic way.

Vic_08

So now we have gone from you being in the wrong to them being unreasonable and illegal and loopholes and how dare they, etc.

The fact is that you applied to use student discounted Leap card PAYG. By doing that you accepted the T/C of the product. One of the main terms is that you MUST tag on/off for every journey or you are liable to fine/prosecution for fare evasion.

That you approached the inspector straight off rather than him finding out as you passed by is irrelevant, had he not been there at all you would have walked out without paying for the journey.

None of it is illegal or unfair or unwarranted, you travelled without paying.

Pay the fine.

Vic_08

So now we have gone from you being in the wrong to them being unreasonable and illegal and loopholes and how dare they, etc.

The fact is that you applied to use student discounted Leap card PAYG. By doing that you accepted the T/C of the product. One of the main terms is that you MUST tag on/off for every journey or you are liable to fine/prosecution for fare evasion.

That you approached the inspector straight off rather than him finding out as you passed by is irrelevant, had he not been there at all you would have walked out without paying for the journey.

None of it is illegal or unfair or unwarranted, you travelled without paying.

Pay the fine.

jathclare

Just ask for your card back, they'll give it to you. Its unlikely you will be stung with a petty jobsworth twice.

Elemonator

Vic_08 wrote: »

So now we have gone from you being in the wrong to them being unreasonable and illegal and loopholes and how dare they, etc.

The fact is that you applied to use student discounted Leap card PAYG. By doing that you accepted the T/C of the product. One of the main terms is that you MUST tag on/off for every journey or you are liable to fine/prosecution for fare evasion.

That you approached the inspector straight off rather than him finding out as you passed by is irrelevant, had he not been there at all you would have walked out without paying for the journey.

None of it is illegal or unfair or unwarranted, you travelled without paying.

Pay the fine.

I never said anything like that if you care to read back. I know for a fact if you were slapped with a fine, you would be digging out any ammo you have and don't deny it. The fact of the matter is I genuinely forgot to tag on. It isn't illegal to make a mistake. I also have an immaculate record, having used the Smart card and the Leap Card for most days since 2009. Their records will show that.

Elemonator

jathclare wrote: »

Just ask for your card back, they'll give it to you. Its unlikely you will be stung with a petty jobsworth twice.

Already did Clare! They said I'll either have to pay up or wait pending the outcome of the appeal.

schemingbohemia

Interesting approach from a law student. You say you forgot to tag on, IE have no way of proving that you have an immaculate record, you could have forgotten to tag on on many other occasions, no one can prove that.
I think you'll just have to accept that your forgetfulness has cost you the fine if you wish to get your card back with the credit still on it.

schemingbohemia

Interesting approach from a law student. You say you forgot to tag on, IE have no way of proving that you have an immaculate record, you could have forgotten to tag on on many other occasions, no one can prove that.
I think you'll just have to accept that your forgetfulness has cost you the fine if you wish to get your card back with the credit still on it.

Hilly Bill

Elemonator wrote: »

Hi guys,

Wondering if I can get some advice here on appealing Irish Rail fines. I was fined last night after I forgot to tag on the leap card (the gates were already open so it didn't cross my mind, thats usually my mental trigger). I do understand I'm in the wrong by the way. I'm sure you can appreciate how this happened. I would think this happens everyday actually with a lot of people. It was only after I saw the ticket inspectors that I realised and I approached a ticket inspector told him what had happened. I am a genuine traveller so rather than let him catch me out, I approached him. He issued me with €105.90 fine. However, he said he appreciated my honestly and understood how the situation can happen as he has seen it before. He said he was corroborate my side of the story (me approaching him) if I was to appeal it. My leapcard was also seized also which I need for exams Monday! I have never been issued with a fine before, as they will see on their records. I have used my leapcard religiously since I acquired it. I've had to commute by train to school for the past 6 years and now DCU on the bus so its used very regularly.

I probably deserve the fine for being such a g**s**** but you know, genuine mistake.


Thank you

What advice are you looking for?

Elemonator

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Interesting approach from a law student. You say you forgot to tag on, IE have no way of proving that you have an immaculate record, you could have forgotten to tag on on many other occasions, no one can prove that.
I think you'll just have to accept that your forgetfulness has cost you the fine if you wish to get your card back with the credit still on it.

Actually they can view my transaction history, I've established that much with them.

gaz wac

The inspector was nice to you as he wanted you to go away! The last thing they want is to have a member of the public screaming at them and causing a scene. Rarely hear of people winning an appeal, especially as seen as you were in the wrong. They won't give you the ticket back until you pay fine. Save yourself a ton a hassle, pay the fine, get your ticket back and good luck with the exams.

Elemonator

gaz wac wrote: »

The inspector was nice to you as he wanted you to go away! The last thing they want is to have a member of the public screaming at them and causing a scene. Rarely hear of people winning an appeal, especially as seen as you were in the wrong. They won't give you the ticket back until you pay fine. Save yourself a ton a hassle, pay the fine, get your ticket back and good luck with the exams.

Yeah probably, I wasn't so much hoping to avoid the fine but maybe get it reduced. Thanks Gaz.

TheChrisD

ohai OP: https://www.reddit.com/r/Dublin/comments/4251le/appealing_irish_rail_fine_help/

lazza14

Elemonator wrote: »

Hi guys,

Wondering if I can get some advice here on appealing Irish Rail fines. I was fined last night after I forgot to tag on the leap card (the gates were already open so it didn't cross my mind, thats usually my mental trigger). I do understand I'm in the wrong by the way. I'm sure you can appreciate how this happened. I would think this happens everyday actually with a lot of people. It was only after I saw the ticket inspectors that I realised and I approached a ticket inspector told him what had happened. I am a genuine traveller so rather than let him catch me out, I approached him. He issued me with €105.90 fine. However, he said he appreciated my honestly and understood how the situation can happen as he has seen it before. He said he was corroborate my side of the story (me approaching him) if I was to appeal it. My leapcard was also seized also which I need for exams Monday! I have never been issued with a fine before, as they will see on their records. I have used my leapcard religiously since I acquired it. I've had to commute by train to school for the past 6 years and now DCU on the bus so its used very regularly.

I probably deserve the fine for being such a g**s**** but you know, genuine mistake.


Thank you

Seriously ?

You are being so honest they should rescind it, if they don't it's a joke and no wonder people don't pay fares.

When I go from Raheny to Ranaleigh the DART ticket is E2.55 (ONE WAY) - plus the LUAS is about 2E, Immoral prices for a one way journey of a few miles.

I dont bother my hole paying for the LUAS - never been caught.

Elemonator

TheChrisD wrote: »

ohai OP: https://www.reddit.com/r/Dublin/comments/4251le/appealing_irish_rail_fine_help/

All avenues being explored

Hilly Bill

lazza14 wrote: »

Seriously ?

You are being so honest they should rescind it, if they don't it's a joke and no wonder people don't pay fares.

When I go from Raheny to Ranaleigh the DART ticket is E2.55 (ONE WAY) - plus the LUAS is about 2E, Immoral prices for a one way journey of a few miles.

I dont bother my hole paying for the LUAS - never been caught.

And when you do you will start another help i got a fine thread.

GM228

Elemonator wrote: »

Yeah probably, I wasn't so much hoping to avoid the fine but maybe get it reduced. Thanks Gaz.

As pointed out there is no loopholes in the law which I think you accept, but there is also no way to reduce the €100 fine either as it is set at €100 by law, and they won't reduce the fare portion either as the fare would be still outstanding.

Elemonator wrote: »

Actually they can view my transaction history, I've established that much with them.

No they can't, that info is held and owned by the NTA, not the individual companies, you can however view it online and print it out to show them if you wish, however it only shows that you regularly tag on, it dosn't show if you take the chance the odd time and chance not tagging on, (not saying you don't) so it proves nothing.

Elemonator wrote: »

I don't think so. While it may or may not say on the back of the card that the card remains property of the issuer, the money on the card is mine.

Incorrect, the money is not yours, it's Leaps, you paid it to them under those conditions, it's no longer yours. By making payment you accept the T&Cs.

It's the same as paying for any ticket and having it confiscated, you are not entitled to any refund of an unused portion.

roverrules

Elemonator wrote: »

Actually they can view my transaction history, I've established that much with them.

Only shows the journeys you've tagged on/off for, if you haven't tagged then the record is incomplete, conceivably you could have done journeys without tagging on or off and if not caught there is no record.

AlanG

Have you established why the took your card? The T & C's say they can take it if the card is misused - In your case it was not used so they really don't seem to have grounds to take it. The Misuse clause is really there in situations where you loan the card to a friend. How can they fine you for not using the card and then say it was misused. In reality the Leap card has noting to do with the situation you described.

Losty Dublin

AlanG wrote: »

Have you established why the took your card? The T & C's say they can take it if the card is misused - In your case it was not used so they really don't seem to have grounds to take it. The Misuse clause is really there in situations where you loan the card to a friend. How can they fine you for not using the card and then say it was misused. In reality the Leap card has noting to do with the situation you described.

The user needs to tag on before they board the train. Upon inspection it was found that they didn't tag on when they needed to use the card to do same. Therefore it was improperly used and they were entitled to hold onto it regardless if it had or hadn't credit on it.

goingnowhere

One of the reasons to tag on is thats the only way to update the card, also the only way to block the card if it has been reported lost/stolen

Ticket checkers can only check the card state, and it has to show a valid tag on

TheChizler

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The user needs to tag on before they board the train. Upon inspection it was found that they didn't tag on when they needed to use the card to do same. Therefore it was improperly used and they were entitled to hold onto it regardless if it had or hadn't credit on it.

There isn't a requirement to use the card every time though. You might have the option of using a regular non-student card or paying cash (or using nothing!), I don't see how they're saying the card has been misused in this case.

GM228

AlanG wrote: »

Have you established why the took your card? The T & C's say they can take it if the card is misused - In your case it was not used so they really don't seem to have grounds to take it. The Misuse clause is really there in situations where you loan the card to a friend. How can they fine you for not using the card and then say it was misused. In reality the Leap card has noting to do with the situation you described.

LIGHT RAILWAY (REGULATION OF TRAVEL AND USE) BYE-LAWS 2015 wrote:

Tickets
3. (1) A passenger shall not -
(a) travel or attempt to travel on a light rail vehicle without possession of a valid ticket,
(b) use or attempt to use a ticket other than under the terms and conditions under which it has been issued,
(c) use or attempt to use a ticket for more journeys than permitted by the ticket,
(d) forge, copy, deface or mutilate any ticket or use or attempt to use a ticket that has been forged, copied, defaced or mutilated,
(e) fail or refuse to produce a ticket to an authorised person for inspection when requested to do so,
(f) fail or refuse to produce a form of identification or other particular document to an authorised person for inspection when requested to do so where the validity of the ticket held by the passenger depends on the passenger being in possession of a form of identification or particular document,
(g) use or attempt to use a ticket without being in possession of a form of identification or other particular document where the validity of that ticket depends on the passenger using that ticket being in possession of a form of identification or particular document,
(h) transfer a ticket to any person where such ticket is not transferable,
(i) use or attempt to use a ticket that has issued to another person and is not transferable,
(j) where the validity of any ticket depends on the ticket being properly validated using a ticket validating machine, use or attempt to use a ticket which has not been so validated.
(2) An authorised person is entitled to retain any ticket or form of identification or other particular document required for use with that ticket.

Nothing there specifically saying it has to be misused.

TheChizler

GM228 wrote: »

Nothing there specifically saying it has to be misused.

But the key point is that no attempt was made to use that ticket. Unless the OP argued to the inspector that he was trying to use a ticket and just forgot to tag on, but they don't explicitly tell us that's what happened.

GM228

TheChizler wrote: »

But the key point is that no attempt was made to use that ticket. Unless the OP argued to the inspector that he was trying to use a ticket and just forgot to tag on, but they don't explicitly tell us that's what happened.

The OP said he didn't tag on the Leap card and he explained the situation to the inspector, not tagging on is misuse of the card as you are required to tag on.

pclive

Fine appeal threads along with threads on Dart Underground and Metro North should be banned!:)

All pointless