Acceptable amount of noise in the mornings

Snatchy

Hi guys,

I would really appreciate some views on the following.

My girlfriend and I live with another couple - let's call them Jack and Gill.

We have very early starts and leave the flat at 0615.

To get to the door of our apartment we need to walk down the hallway, put on our shoes and leave. Jack and Gill's room is located near the exit door and the shoe-rack.

We were never noisy to begin with because (a) we have an en-suite room so brush our teeth there (we don't shower in the mornings) and (b) do not have breakfasts in the morning - my gf blends her smoothies in the evenings and leaves them in the fridge to pick up on her way out. I eat at work.

In total we are in the "common spaces" in the flat for no more than 5 minutes on any given morning. We are conscious that there are people sleeping and because of previous requests, keep our voices and communication to a minimum (not that we would be having extensive chats at that forsaken hour as we are trying to get out of the flat on time!).

Yesterday evening Jack approached me and asked that we keep the noise down in the mornings (for approximately the third time since we've been living together for the past 5 months). He said that he heard me calling out to my gf with a raised voice that morning - what actually happened was that I walked back into our room and asked her in my normal conversation volume/voice to get a move on as we would miss the train. He also said that we wake him up approximately 3 three time a week.

To give you more context, Jack has amongst various other things (a) asked me to leave the milk in the side of the fridge and not inside as it may spill and (b) last week he asked us not to use our current clothes horse which we use in the spare bedroom because it is big and bulky and he tripped over it and hurt his elbow on a chest of drawers. He suggested that we purchase a new clothes horse like the one Jack and Gill have. I could write a very long list of similar requests that we have had from him. Neither my gf or myself have asked anything of Jack or Gill - we are quite relaxed and reasonable people - always pay our rent and bills, clean after ourselves etc.

I have held off having a conversation with him about these things because I know Jack well and there would be a strong chance that he would say something inflammatory and I would lose my temper and there would be a massive falling out. We don't need this right now because my gf has enough on her plate with a 60hr a week a job and a masters with essay submissions to boot and a falling out will just escalate her (and my!) stress levels!

I also don't want to fall out with Jack because we have been reasonably good friends since the age of 10 (we are now 28).

My gf and I don't want to live there anymore and would much rather live by ourselves - our lease ends in August and we can well afford to live by ourselves (much more so than Jack and Gill). If we were to leave before the lease ends, it would cause conflict - I would say that at least 66% of the items in the flat that make it a home belong to my gf and me. They would struggle and it would cause them serious inconveniences.

Can somebody please tell me how all this sounds to an objective person?

Many thanks.

S

MarkAnthony

Only have your side of it but Jack sounds like he's a light sleeper and a bit of a pedant.

Time to move tbh.

Arbiter of Good Taste

Jack sounds like a nightmare. Move out. Take your stuff. It's not your problem if they are inconvenienced as long as you act decently about it.

Assuming your side of the story reflects the reality, they will get a rude awakening when new people move in

o1s1n

If you stay there are going to be more issues in the long run than if you move out I'd imagine.

I was in a similar situation before living with an extremely pedantic couple. We decided to stick it out. Ended in a blazing row and huge amounts of conflict. Should have just moved out once we saw how utterly irritating they were to live with.

sKeith

5 months gone, 7 to go. with only 3 complaints in 5 months, that sounds very acceptable. Don't take his snipes to heart. Instead, think of them as conversation openers. Convince yourself that maybe he had nothing else to say and used that as way to break the ice. Have your girlfriend forget to make smoothie the night before at least once a month, to insure he knows what real noise in the morning sounds like.

intheclouds

Snatchy wrote: »

I have held off having a conversation with him about these things because I know Jack well and there would be a strong chance that he would say something inflammatory and I would lose my temper and there would be a massive falling out.

This bit struck me. Are you seriously saying that your conflict resolution skills are so poor that you will lose your temper if you speak to him about it? You cant live with people you cant have a reasonable conversation about minor conflicts with!

In saying that, I wouldnt be arsed living with people like them myself (eh, earplugs Jack?) and if the above is all true then Jack and Gill are going to have complete meltdowns when new people move in - but unfortunately for Jack - you cant have it every way. Had he not needled you over insignificant nonsense so often you wouldnt have moved out - and Id be telling him that categorically.

McGrath5

If your side of the story is indeed representing the reality of it, jack sounds like a right pain to live with.

OP I know it is a bit late now, but living with friends can be become a bit of a nightmare sometimes, as you really do not know somebody proper until you live with them.

Gatling

One of the many unwritten rules of renting never live with friends or relatives it's just not worth the hassle ,
Did you take out the lease together or did one move in later

Snatchy

Thanks for the responses so far. I am confident in saying that my side is accurate. We have not said a single thing to him about his needling.

I've known him for 18 years but my gf has known him for just over a year - she's really upset by it because she's not at all used to this kind of atmosphere; one of the more serious "requests" has lead her to tears. It's pretty much unbearable atm.

Both my gf and I have had many flat-shares with friends in the past and have never had these issues.

All four names are on the lease unfortunately.

magicmushroom

Start planning to move out in August.

Let Jack and Gill know of your plans as soon as you feel appropriate, so they can arrange for someone else to move in and also to replace the furniture that you will be taking with you.

If they ask why you are moving out, just say that you feel uncomfortable with the requests that have been made and you feel it would be easier to maintain the friendship whilst living separately.

intheclouds

Snatchy wrote: »

Thanks for the responses so far. I am confident in saying that my side is accurate. We have not said a single thing to him about his needling.

I've known him for 18 years but my gf has known him for just over a year - she's really upset by it because she's not at all used to this kind of atmosphere; one of the more serious "requests" has lead her to tears. It's pretty much unbearable atm.

Both my gf and I have had many flat-shares with friends in the past and have never had these issues.

All four names are on the lease unfortunately.

Sub-let.

Larbre34

Source yourselves some alternative accommodation in time for the end of the lease, then move into it.

Their financial pressure or inconvenience by not having access to your property, is not your problem.

Your relationship with your girlfriend and both of your contentment are the only priorities here.

Happy moving day.

browne_rob5

Maybe you could approach him and say that you don't think that you and your gf can be any quieter in the morning and with that being the case it may be better for all parties if you found somewhere else to live.

timmy880

If ye can comfortably afford your own place it has to be the way to go. Sounds like he is being very unreasonable.

the_pen_turner

I think your room mate is being a total tool.
by the sounds of it you are trying not to make noise.
you cant control the hours because you need to go to work. . what does he expect you to do.
you are entitled to use the space a lot more than you do.


plan to move in august
if most of the contents are yours I would make a list when they are not there so that you can make sure you get everything.

just to prove your point I would "accidentally" make some noise on one morning just to show what noise is. maybe get your gf to ring your phone . leave it upstairs or in your room while your in the kitchen or loo. a few rings and vibrations will make a big rackuette just for effect give out to the person on the phone for ringing at that hour and waking up your poor room mate

intheclouds

Start making the smoothies and taking showers in the morning.

Milly33

Sounds like your flat mate/friend is being an ass.. You shouldn't live with friends as such they are fine but like you never know what they are going to be like living with them.. Everyone has their thing but in fairness it sounds a bit much like he wants to rule the roost..

I would give my notice and tell him ye are moving out

Snatchy

Snatchy wrote: »

Hi guys,



To get to the door of our apartment we need to walk down the hallway, put on our shoes and leave. Jack and Gill's room is located near the exit door and the shoe-rack.



S

Can you exchange rooms until you move out?

Wesser

Do you remember that ad i think it was for bank if Ireland mortgages where your man comes home after work and there is another guy on the couch with his really annoying girlfriend.

Your description makes me think you are in that ad!!!

Mrs OBumble

If Jack and Gill are going to struggle when you leave, then they will struggle no matter whether that's in August or sooner.

Have a man-to-man with Jack. Tell him what's p*ssing you off, and say you want him and Gill to move out earlier, or to change his behaviour.

If you really are friends, then he will accept this.

If he does takes it like a teenager and says inflammatory stuff, then he's not worth having as a friend and you'd be better off to cut your losses and make a new friend. (They're easier to find than new gf or even new apartments!)

esforum

how long os a piece of string? For years I rented a room in my house, first when I was single then after I married initially. We had singles and couples share with us including a single mother and baby. In all that time I never had an issue with noise even though I work shifts so could be sleeping during the day, etc. I also always shower before going to work so sometimes that could be 5 or 6am and again, not a songle person every said I woke them.

My sister on the other hand is an incredible light sleeper, every tenent she has is according to her, very noisy in the morning and on the occasions I stayed with her, was also accused of being unreasonable noisy.

My point is, if you have to tip toe out the door then your living with someone who would hear a pin drop and that wont change. Could you swap rooms so you are closer to the kitchen and door in the morning?

Wabbit Ears

Dont take it to heart. Suggest putting in draught excluder's under the door (in my experience they do reduce noise). This is a positive statement and shows that you've heard his complaint and are actively working with him to improve the situation.

http://www.lidl.ie/en/Offers.htm?action=showDetail&id=34882

If he continues to be unreasonable then just explain its not working out.

So, acknowledge complaint, try to resolve, then tell to fcuk off.

keane2097

Also, ear plugs

Wanderer78

keane2097 wrote: »

Also, ear plugs

even though they work, theyre feckin annoying to sleep with

the_syco

Snatchy wrote: »

We have very early starts and leave the flat at 0615.

To get to the door of our apartment we need to walk down the hallway, put on our shoes and leave. Jack and Gill's room is located near the exit door and the shoe-rack.

Consider swapping rooms.

Snatchy wrote: »

We are conscious that there are people sleeping and because of previous requests, keep our voices and communication to a minimum

Respect works both ways; are they quiet as a mouse in the evenings?

Snatchy wrote: »

He said that he heard me calling out to my gf with a raised voice that morning - what actually happened was that I walked back into our room and asked her in my normal conversation volume/voice to get a move on as we would miss the train.

Tell him to get earplugs.

Snatchy wrote: »

To give you more context, Jack has amongst various other things (a) asked me to leave the milk in the side of the fridge and not inside as it may spill and (b) last week he asked us not to use our current clothes horse which we use in the spare bedroom because it is big and bulky and he tripped over it and hurt his elbow on a chest of drawers.

The poor baby. Tell him to make sure the light is on next time he goes into the room.

Snatchy wrote: »

Neither my gf or myself have asked anything of Jack or Gill - we are quite relaxed and reasonable people - always pay our rent and bills, clean after ourselves etc.

.... and it sounds like they are tightly strung.

Snatchy wrote: »

We don't need this right now because my gf has enough on her plate with a 60hr a week a job and a masters with essay submissions to boot and a falling out will just escalate her (and my!) stress levels!

Snatchy wrote: »

I've known him for 18 years but my gf has known him for just over a year - she's really upset by it because she's not at all used to this kind of atmosphere; one of the more serious "requests" has lead her to tears. It's pretty much unbearable atm.

It sounds like she'll have a lot less stress if you didn't live with them, if you could talk in the morning, and not have to creep around like mice.

Snatchy wrote: »

I also don't want to fall out with Jack because we have been reasonably good friends since the age of 10 (we are now 28).

You'll fall out the moment he gets new people to share with, as he sounds the sort who'll blame you for the new peoples noise, as you moved out, tbh.

Snatchy wrote: »

They would struggle and it would cause them serious inconveniences.

Tough sh|t; if he wants peace and quite, he can pay for it.

Charles Babbage

Tramping about a house yakking at 06:30 is pretty offensive behaviour, the owner of the house would do better with more responsible tenants who get up a reasonable hour.

gothic_doll

Jack is a light sleeper.
He might have a nice surprise when he gets new tenants as everyone has their own level of consideration for others, and to be fair you both sound very considerate.

Kettles, microwaves, showers, hairdryers, chats, music or tv going- all typical morning things for most.

SeantheMan

I am Jack's overly sensitive ears

HeidiHeidi

Jack and Gill sound like people that really should be living on their own!

Life is far too short to be tiptoeing around in the mornings, using hand signals and afraid to turn on a tap.

If you can stick it out till August, well done you. But I'd be making plans to get out of there ASAP.

In the meantime, I'd certainly be having a conversation about it - and just keep your temper, ffs. You're all adults. Sounds like you're doing all that's humanly possible to be quiet in the mornings - make sure he knows that. (IMO you're going above and beyond, but maybe that's why I live on my own )

How Jack and Gill react to you leaving is really their problem (one of).

Graces7

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Tramping about a house yakking at 06:30 is pretty offensive behaviour, the owner of the house would do better with more responsible tenants who get up a reasonable hour.

Best part of the day and a reasonable time to be up and about.

Graces7

Graces7 wrote: »

Best part of the day and a reasonable time to be up and about.

Horrible part of the day that no one should have experience imo and most people are not up that early.

In fairness to the op I think he is really making an effort and there isn't much more he can do, I am regularly woken at between 6 and 7am by my housemate and he makes no such effort even with ear plugs he wakes me up at times and that taking into account he doesn't even use the shower in the morning just making noise around the house in general. It drives me insane I don't get up until 8:30 at the earliest and its seriously disturbing my sleep being woken up 2.5 hours earlier than I should. Imo before 8am people should treat it like 1am on the other side of the spectrum (again which the op is doing), I'm often still up at this time and would be really making an effort to keep noise to a minimum (well I've stopped caring as much now as I'm getting woken early so tough luck on my house mate why should I keep so quiet when he doesn't in the mornings).

Butters1979

Graces7 wrote: »

Best part of the day and a reasonable time to be up and about.

It really is a horrible part of the day, especially this time of year. It's freezing cold and pitch black.

The point is though if that is what time you have to be up for work you can't really do much about it. It's difficult not to make any noise and if your friend is a light sleeper you can't do much.

I'd find it strange that you know him so long but can't discuss this with him without an argument. the fact it has upset your girlfriend and he tells you were to put the milk makes it sound like this guy is just a really fussy drama queen.

You can't worry about his financial position if you move out, it's not your job to subsides his life so he can live in a house, especially if he makes living there so difficult.

If you can afford a place on your own then move out. If you haven't lived with just yourself (and your partner) before you will find it is so much easier and you both will be much happier.

M5

I'm was a chronically light sleeper. Someone putting a key in the front door would often wake me. I bought a desk fan to drown out the little noises like that. I slept better and pissed my flatmates off less. Win win.

Arbiter of Good Taste

You know that putting heavy items in the refrigerator door (such as milk) can damage it with all the opening and closing.

sKeith

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

You know that putting heavy items in the refrigerator door (such as milk) can damage it with all the opening and closing.

I'd like to call BullSh1t on that.

Arbiter of Good Taste

sKeith wrote: »

I'd like to call BullSh1t on that.

Charming

Graces7

Nickolas Agreeable Steam wrote: »

Horrible part of the day that no one should have experience imo and most people are not up that early.

In fairness to the op I think he is really making an effort and there isn't much more he can do, I am regularly woken at between 6 and 7am by my housemate and he makes no such effort even with ear plugs he wakes me up at times and that taking into account he doesn't even use the shower in the morning just making noise around the house in general. It drives me insane I don't get up until 8:30 at the earliest and its seriously disturbing my sleep being woken up 2.5 hours earlier than I should. Imo before 8am people should treat it like 1am on the other side of the spectrum (again which the op is doing), I'm often still up at this time and would be really making an effort to keep noise to a minimum (well I've stopped caring as much now as I'm getting woken early so tough luck on my house mate why should I keep so quiet when he doesn't in the mornings).

I am up at 4 am or earlier to make contact with family in Canada. No different than being up at night when it is cold and dark. I go to bed very early of course.. Just is adapting and I love the fresh early hours.If Jack and Gill are so intolerant they need to live alone.

sKeith

I too don't see why somebody should be telling another housemate to make sure to store the milk in the door, but saying that storing milk in the door is somehow bad for a fridge and will damage it is not a good defense imho

Mrs OBumble

Nickolas Agreeable Steam wrote: »

most people are not up that early.

If you did a survey among all workers (not students!) then you might get a big surprise! Most office workers are due in at 8:30 or perhaps 9. Sleeping until 8:30 is for weekends only.

Graces7

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

Charming

Just choked on my food reading your post!Well put!:D

intheclouds

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

If you did a survey among all workers (not students!) then you might get a big surprise! Most office workers are due in at 8:30 or perhaps 9. Sleeping until 8:30 is for weekends only.

Too right!!

I get up at 6.30am, am on the M50 by 7am and get a workout in before being at my desk at 9am.

The M50 is pretty packed at 7am!!

Butters1979

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

You know that putting heavy items in the refrigerator door (such as milk) can damage it with all the opening and closing.

I have yet to see a fridge door fall off because of milk. Also, when you say heavy, do you buy your milk by the drum?

Alf Veedersane

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Tramping about a house yakking at 06:30 is pretty offensive behaviour, the owner of the house would do better with more responsible tenants who get up a reasonable hour.

The owner should get in touch with the OP's unreasonable boss and the unreasonable physicists who haven't mastered quantum teleportation

dollyk

The plastic storage on the inside of the fridge does break from putting 2
litres of milk in that part, well my kids have broke it off so many times
that it is now glued on. Milk and juices can be very heavy, with the kids
slamming it several times a day

Snatchy

OP here.

Thanks for all the responses to date (some of which are very amusing and others just good advice). I found out yesterday that J & J also want to leave the flat at the end of the lease and I think we are all clear that both couples will be living separately (I told J & J yesterday that my gf and I have plans to buy within 12 months and want to live alone before then as a "trial-run" etc.) from August onwards.

I was hoping that they would tell me that they'd be looking to stay in the flat in which case I would have made a suggestion that my gf and I want to move out for personal reasons asap and that given that they'll need to find new flatmates in August, they might as well start looking now.

However, this leaves myself and my gf in a bit of a predicament: we haven't had a conflict with J & J yet but if we move out with only 6 months left in the lease (now knowing that they will also be leaving the flat after the lease), that's not really fair on J & J either and would lead to a conflict which would likely result in me losing a very old friend (as I've said before the majority of the "stuff" in the flat that makes it a home belongs to me and I would be taking it with me if we left). My gf and I don't have time to be looking for someone to sublet to and J & J would need to be happy with a new co-tenant. Is it all worth it over a couple of months of putting up with them?

It seems that the only sensible solution here is just to have a calm conversation with Jack next time he brings up something annoying. The reason I have not done this to date is because his is a man who has exceedingly firm convictions in the truth and accuracy behind everything he says and so a person like that isn't really going to think he is being unreasonable with some of his requests. For example: the day before yesterday, he was at the sink and had asked if I had been washing the dishes. After I answered in the affirmative, he said "can you make sure you leave the food catcher back inside the sink-hole because sometimes food gets caught and there is a rotten smell from the sink". My response was: "Jack, I had removed to make sure the sink-hole was clean and I don't think there is any smell in any event". His response was (in a semi-jokey but semi-serious tone): "It's basic hygiene FFS"!

"It's a bloody food-catcher in a sink - SO WHAT IF IT'S NOT IN THE SINK HOLE FROM TIME TO TIME?!!!". He then walked off in a sulk.

You're not going to convince a person who says these sorts of things, that he's wrong. In fact, I'm certain that he thinks that I'm being unreasonable.

Guys - my gf and I work like crazy people and are hardly ever home anyway; we just don't have the time and patience for this nonsense.

Having said all that, next time he says something along these lines I think I'll just need to try to explain to him the best I can that his requests are making life very difficult for my gf and I.

The good news is that come May, Jill will be away for 6 weeks and Jack will then be joining her for a 2-3 week holiday. So really, my gf and I only have to survive until May.

We'll look for a new apartment in June and move into it in July.

However, I am leaving for a two-week holiday with another friend tomorrow and am leaving my gf behind as she has too much work to do (including university essay submissions) and couldn't come with us. I feel terrible leaving her by herself - if (or more likely when...) Jack says something to her, she'll have nobody to talk to (I'll be in a 8+hr timezone so may not always be available). Poor gf. If this happens, I might just lose my cool with him...

nikkibikki

Just walk out of the room everytime he comes out with his ridiculousness!

intheclouds

Snatchy wrote: »

For example: the day before yesterday, he was at the sink and had asked if I had been washing the dishes. After I answered in the affirmative, he said "can you make sure you leave the food catcher back inside the sink-hole because sometimes food gets caught and there is a rotten smell from the sink". My response was: "Jack, I had removed to make sure the sink-hole was clean and I don't think there is any smell in any event". His response was (in a semi-jokey but semi-serious tone): "It's basic hygiene FFS"!

"It's a bloody food-catcher in a sink - SO WHAT IF IT'S NOT IN THE SINK HOLE FROM TIME TO TIME?!!!". He then walked off in a sulk.

Actually I think you do sound a bit unreasonable there.

You could have just said "OK" when he asked you to leave the thing back in the sink hole instead of being argumentative about it. Why not just leave the thing back in where its supposed to be? Its not an attack if someone asks you to do something so simple.

OK = Peaceful end to conversation, no one in a sulk, no argument.

keane2097

You both sound unreasonable tbh, you can just accede to a sensible request the odd time like.

edit: what intheclouds said

Snatchy

OP here.

Guys, just to put the food-catcher comment into context so you have full information:

- two days prior to the incident described in my last post, I was washing the dishes when Jack comes over and the following conversation ensues:

JACK: Oh actually, I have a question, is it you who takes the food-catcher out of the sink?

ME: I'm not really sure - don't pay too much attention to whether it's in or out. As you can see, it is in now. It's definitely not my gf as she normally uses the dishwasher for everything [aside: Jack had previously said to my gf on two occasions that she shouldn't put pans and pots in the dishwasher because they get ruined; keep in mind that they are my pots and pans]. I do make sure that the sink is clean after using it though.

JACK: It's just that there was a smell coming from the sink when I came home after the Christmas break so you should just leave it in at all times.

ME: well, my gf and I had been living here over the Christmas break and hadn't noticed a smell. Anyway, I don't think I take and leave it out of the sink-hole intentionally in any event.

JACK: well (jokingly) maybe I should install a camera to see who does it.

When he brought up the food-catcher issue for the second time in three days is when I got p*ssed off.

intheclouds

Again - you seem to go straight into defensive/argumentative mode when asked something simple.

Why argue back that you didnt notice a smell? If he did then he did and so what if you didnt?

You are only being asked to be mindful of leaving it back where its supposed to be.

From his perspective he had only talked to you about the thing 2 days earlier and then there it was, not where it was supposed to be again.

It could be that you are annoying to live with. Im not saying that Jack isnt pedantic, but given the 2 conversations you have posted, I think that you are not without fault either.

Snatchy

intheclouds wrote: »

Again - you seem to go straight into defensive/argumentative mode when asked something simple.

Why argue back that you didnt notice a smell? If he did then he did and so what if you didnt?

You are only being asked to be mindful of leaving it back where its supposed to be.

From his perspective he had only talked to you about the thing 2 days earlier and then there it was, not where it was supposed to be again.

It could be that you are annoying to live with. Im not saying that Jack isnt pedantic, but given the 2 conversations you have posted, I think that you are not without fault either.

Again, to give more context, the food-catcher point is on the tail end of numerous other requests; when those conversation were had, I had reached the stage when I just wanted to tell him to F-OFF and had been irritated for quite some time.

A food-catcher is not a big deal to me. I simply don't care where it is left. The sink is clean and in my opinion, it doesn't smell. It's very irritating to be "told" about a food-catcher by your peer, old friend and housemate two times in three days. It is not a big deal. Especially, when within the last two weeks: (i) he has complained to me behind my gf's back that she keeps her desk in our common study room untidy (note that this is her working/study desk; J&J have their own desk in the same room); (ii) has asked us not to use our clothes horse and to buy a new one and (iii) has again pointed out that we are too noisy in the mornings. It's too much. I have a reason to be irritated in my opinion.

Not difficult to live with - I have had seven different house/flat-shares in the past and have never had any issues.