Threatened Luas Strike.

Losty Dublin

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/luas-staff-to-strike-in-bid-for-pay-increases-up-to-50-1.2489968

It's not a definite yet but there's a lot of ground to make up between both sides.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

Bunch of crooks with their transport monopoly

Privatize it all and get some real private operators in who will do the job properly for a cheaper rate who will run the service for its passengers and not the employees.



Wait a minute. ............... what was that lads ?

Hahahahahahahaha

bruno1x

A 50% pay rise! HAHAHA and some think the private operator are knights in shining armour who will rescue them from the evils of IE, BE and DB.
“The vast majority of tram drivers are paid a full bonus, and the average bonus is €2,493.78 per tram driver annually." No wonder the tickets are more expensive than DB, i wish i got a €2500 bonus for driving a bus.

devnull

Remind me, how many LUAS strikes have there been since it's inception and how many CIE ones?

It's like sampling 1000 apples and finding 999 are good but 1 is bad, therefore saying that proves they are all bad.

markpb

I love the delight in this forum when there's the slightest hint that Luas staff might strike. All the staunch CIE supporters come out in force with the same comments every time.

Luas is run well, it's very popular and there has been almost no industrial relations problems in the decade. The funny thing is that it has very little to do with it being privatised and everything to do with it being run by a company that isn't CIE. This isn't a union thing or a privatisation thing, just proof that the persistent problems between staff and management at CIE are bad for passengers.

Losty Dublin

devnull wrote: »

Remind me, how many LUAS strikes have there been since it's inception and how many CIE ones?

It's like sampling 1000 apples and finding 999 are good but 1 is bad, therefore saying that proves they are all bad.

Zero Luas strikes. One wonders how many strikes LUAS would have had without staff getting €2-€3 grand a year of a bribe to not strike

TallGlass

How can I get a job there? 40k+ a year do they know how good that pay is? Why the comparison with rail services, there long established and I can't see that type of pay been the same with new hires.

bruno1x

devnull wrote: »

Remind me, how many LUAS strikes have there been since it's inception and how many CIE ones?

It's like sampling 1000 apples and finding 999 are good but 1 is bad, therefore saying that proves they are all bad.

Remind me , the memory aint the best, how many years was it forbidden for the LUAS to go on strike?
When did that clause expire?

markpb

Are you suggesting that all pubic transport staff have a no strike rule in their contracts? Because from a passenger and local economy point of view, it worked excellently. You might have a point there!

bruno1x

markpb wrote: »

Are you suggesting that all pubic transport staff have a no strike rule in their contracts? Because from a passenger and local economy point of view, it worked excellently. You might have a point there!

The Luas staff did have this clause, now it has expired they can challenge the company over grievances.
As a DB driver i hope they get every penny they want, if they do you can bet the farm we will be looking for a pay rise as well.

From another part of boards

Uncle Ben wrote: »

We're the fastest growing econony in Europe. Noonan found €3billion behind a sofa and he doesn't know where it came from. The public sector are getting their pay restored. Burton wants to give pensioners increases. Nurses voted for strike because of A & E conditions and are rewarded with pay rises and extra leave. The low wage are getting an increase and there are medical cards for practically everyone in the audience. And there is more to come if FG/LP are
returned .
Anyone who doesn't ask for a wage increase is mad.

Jamie2k9

CIE II

It was great while it lasted.

bruno1x

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

CIE II

It was great while it lasted.

Look at it positively , the only way to know if the government are telling the truth about the economy being on the up is if they grant this pay rise. If they don't get the pay rise we know the economy is still in trouble.

Jamie2k9

bruno1x wrote: »

Look at it positively , the only way to know if the government are telling the truth about the economy being on the up is if they grant this pay rise. If they don't get the pay rise we know the economy is still in trouble.

The only thing it will tell is "Celtic Tuger" a pay rise of 13,000 in some cases is a joke. Luas should be liquidated and start over again.

bruno1x

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The only thing it will tell is "Celtic Tuger" a pay rise of 13,000 in some cases is a joke. Luas should be liquidated and start over again.

I think its great, lets see the NTA earn their pay, they have painted IE,BE and DB as the bad guys for long enough, and held up the private operators as some kind of saviour to transport problems in Ireland.
The wheels are coming off now , how will the NTA handle it?

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The only thing it will tell is "Celtic Tuger" a pay rise of 13,000 in some cases is a joke. Luas should be liquidated and start over again.

You all seem to forget a few things here

A company : state / semi state / private are all set up to provide a service. But they all want the same thing. Money and or profit.

An employee: is someone who goes to work everyday to do their job but only for money. Nobody is going to do their job for free no matter how much they like it.

So fair play for luas looking for their rise. I just can't see them getting that much at all.

So cie or no cie its all the same.

With maybe one exception. A private company won't operate without a good profit for themselves whereas cie just want to get by. A big difference if you ask me

Atlantic Dawn

Sack the lot of them. They started work at the given rate and there should be no connection whatsover between driving a LUAS and a train.

end of the road

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Bunch of crooks with their transport monopoly

Privatize it all and get some real private operators in who will do the job properly for a cheaper rate who will run the service for its passengers and not the employees.



Wait a minute. ............... what was that lads ?

Hahahahahahahaha

LOL!!!!

bruno1x wrote: »

A 50% pay rise! HAHAHA and some think the private operator are knights in shining armour who will rescue them from the evils of IE, BE and DB.
“The vast majority of tram drivers are paid a full bonus, and the average bonus is €2,493.78 per tram driver annually." No wonder the tickets are more expensive than DB, i wish i got a €2500 bonus for driving a bus.

its a tram. not a bus. big difference.

markpb wrote: »

Are you suggesting that all pubic transport staff have a no strike rule in their contracts? Because from a passenger and local economy point of view, it worked excellently. You might have a point there!

Plenty of ways they could have got around it if they needed to. so no strike doesn't really work. anyway strikes are necessary

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Luas should be liquidated and start over again.

you going to do that every time there is a strike? why waste time when you can negotiate.

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Sack the lot of them. They started work at the given rate and there should be no connection whatsover between driving a LUAS and a train.

can't be done. would be to costly and would lead to a long term disruption of service. 1 day strike is much cheeper and barely disruptive compared to your nonsense suggestion. sack ja larra jem rabel rabel belongs back in the 20th century, we have workers rights now.

devnull

bruno1x wrote: »

Look at it positively , the only way to know if the government are telling the truth about the economy being on the up is if they grant this pay rise. If they don't get the pay rise we know the economy is still in trouble.

The economy is on the up, but that doesn't mean that the country can afford to start splashing crazy amounts of money around. Is there scope for an increase? Probably Yes, on the scale of 30%? No.

The funny thing about Irish politics is it always goes in cycles, a government spends too much by spending excessively and keeps doing it until it's dying days, the next government is left with virtually no money and has to deal with that fact, just when the economy picks up, the people then call for money to be splashed around en-masse and then moan why austerity is back a few dail terms down the line.

Go read what Mr Martin and Noel Dempsey have been saying in recent weeks, you would never think they served in office when the banks and the property developers run amok. They appear to think the Celtic Tiger was some great creation solely by themselves whilst the collapse that followed had nothing to do with them and was to do with simple bad luck rather than how they ran the country. Only this week Dempsey is moaning about the lack of infrastructure for flood protection being built over the past two decades, this from a former minister of the environment from a party that was in power for the vast majority of the last two decades!!

But it didn't happen, because every time there was a dispute, when this country had more money than at any other point, the money went into the back pockets of unions, staff members and the public sector .

You can imagine a conversation in Bertie's time was like this:
"Hello Minister, we are going on strike next week"
"That's okay, Mr Union, how much money would you like to not strike."
"We'd like x."
"Okay, we will give you that."
"Will there be any conditions or anything we have to do in return"
"No, just don't strike so we look good and curry favour with the public sector."

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

A company : state / semi state / private are all set up to provide a service. But they all want the same thing. Money and or profit.

If a company wants to set up their own commercial ventures, they can do what they like with them. That is their responsibility, their money, good luck to them, I wish them all the very best for success since running a business with no funding is not easy.

However companies that are set up solely to provide a service to the state, should have their one and only priority to do that, above all others. That is the whole argument for publicly run public services. Self interest belongs in the commercial world of private companies who are self-funding and are not state supported.

An employee: is someone who goes to work everyday to do their job but only for money. Nobody is going to do their job for free no matter how much they like it. So fair play for luas looking for their rise. I just can't see them getting that much at all. So cie or no cie its all the same.

Of course, at the end of the day however much you dress it up most employees number one priority when entering the workplace is to get the best conditions they can for themselves. Anyone who says otherwise is not being completely upfront unless they work in the charitable sector for example of community projects.

I don't deny that there is some scope for a rise for LUAS drivers, but quite frankly they do not deserve to be paid the same as Irish Rail drivers and what they are looking for is complete greed. Nobody anywhere deserves a raise of that scope and far from defending them, I'm actually angry that they are doing this, especially when they do it over an election period to hold the whole country to ransom.

This country is in desperate need of decent public transport infrastructure, but time and time again as soon as the country has even a small amount of money there are demands for huge increases in certain areas and pay etc. This is repeated throughout the economy, This then reduces the pot available for such infrastructure projects and people wonder why it's crap, then the unions wheel out the lines about the government should spend more money and we're back to the days of Bertie and Cowen again.

The trouble is whilst the economy is picked up, it's not awash with cash and already I feel like people are saying "The recession is over, lets get back to how it was before the recession." but the way things were before the recession FAILED which is the whole reason it happened in the first place. People in this country repeat the same actions time after time and they wonder why they get the same result. Of course there is more cash to spend now, but it has to be spent carefully with small, gradual, responsible increases rather than huge spending that will create another boom and bust.

Still, out of all of the private operators in Ireland this if it goes ahead will be the first strike by any of them in the transport industry and believe me, many of them are unionized as well, so to say that one strike means everyone is the same is flawed logic.

If I turn up for work 1000 days in a row on time and on day number 1001 I am late, does that mean I am an unreliable person that should be treated like someone who has been late 50 times in 1000 days, because my one late proved that I am a person who will turn up late on a regular basis because I am the same as that person?

A private company won't operate without a good profit for themselves whereas cie just want to get by. A big difference if you ask me

That's way too simplistic and you know it is.

A private company has to be very efficient because at the end of the day if they make a loss and run out of money the company ceases to be. Any profit is normally distributed to shareholders by increased dividends etc.

A public run company does not have to be efficient because due to the states backing, it would never be allowed to fail and the staff know this. Any profits are normally distributed to staff by respect of higher salaries and pay increases.

The real difference in public and private companies is a lot of the former tend to be run for the staff, whereas a lot of the later tend to be run for benefit of shareholders. Neither model is perfect, that's why you need regulation and things like tendering in public transport, to stop either shareholders or staff putting their own interests above that of the public.

Any company that has a monopoly, be that public or private will always use to exploit that monopoly to some degree, whether it's for commercial gain, shareholder gain, self interest or staff gain. Anyone who thinks that private companies or public companies who are left alone to run transport will run services solely for the benefit of the public is quite frankly deluded, neither model can work without proper regulation.

KD345

bruno1x wrote: »

A 50% pay rise! HAHAHA and some think the private operator are knights in shining armour who will rescue them from the evils of IE, BE and DB.
“The vast majority of tram drivers are paid a full bonus, and the average bonus is €2,493.78 per tram driver annually." No wonder the tickets are more expensive than DB, i wish i got a €2500 bonus for driving a bus.

Just to pick you up on this point, the Luas fares are always cheaper than Dublin Bus for both Leap and cash fare journeys.

cdebru

devnull wrote: »

Remind me, how many LUAS strikes have there been since it's inception and how many CIE ones?

It's like sampling 1000 apples and finding 999 are good but 1 is bad, therefore saying that proves they are all bad.

How long as CIE existed comapared to the Luas, we are only getting started for the first 10 or 15 years SIPTU had a no strike clause as part of their agreement with the luas operator so that they would be the only union.

cdebru

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Sack the lot of them. They started work at the given rate and there should be no connection whatsover between driving a LUAS and a train.

So they should stay on the rate they took the job at ? Never any pay rises ? Is that how you work ?

bruno1x

end of the road wrote: »

LOL!!!!


its a tram. not a bus. big difference.
.

Sure is, a Tram is much easier to operate than a Bus.

cdebru

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The only thing it will tell is "Celtic Tuger" a pay rise of 13,000 in some cases is a joke. Luas should be liquidated and start over again.

And when the new drivers in the new Luas company start looking for better pay and conditions then what ?

dfx-

The 69/13/56A/44/47/14/61/27 would need to be reinforced with a Luas strike. A 20/30+ minute service would not be sufficient.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

dfx- wrote: »

The 69/13/56A/44/47/14/61/27 would need to be reinforced with a Luas strike. A 20/30+ minute service would not be sufficient.

Not at all

I'm sure somewhere there will be an agreement for bus and trains not to accept any luas ticket during the strike. As it was with busses and Irish rail when they went out.

Or someone suggest the other day in work that cie should go out with them since its being about a year since the last strike :rolleyes:

devnull

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

I'm sure somewhere there will be an agreement for bus and trains not to accept any luas ticket during the strike. As it was with busses and Irish rail when they went out.

There is no chance that Dublin Bus will accept LUAS tickets, they should not have to, but if extra services can be laid on that might be a possibility, since people will still need to travel.

devnull

cdebru wrote: »

So they should stay on the rate they took the job at ? Never any pay rises ? Is that how you work ?

They have rights to claim a rise, no issue with that, but what they are looking for is too much.

Jamie2k9

cdebru wrote: »

And when the new drivers in the new Luas company start looking for better pay and conditions then what ?

Well that's many years away, do you honestly believe 60,000 is an acceptable wage for driving a train for less than 40 hours a week.

The starting wage is higher than guards, other emergency workers and all graduates by up to 10,000 and they want it higher.

42,500 plus the 2,500 bonus is a very good wage for what they do.

howiya

cdebru wrote: »

How long as CIE existed comapared to the Luas, we are only getting started for the first 10 or 15 years SIPTU had a no strike clause as part of their agreement with the luas operator so that they would be the only union.

Luas started running in 2004. No strike clause removed in 2010

howiya

cdebru wrote: »

So they should stay on the rate they took the job at ? Never any pay rises ? Is that how you work ?

Presumably their contract would have laid out the scope for incremental raises etc. If it didn't they should have asked the question before signing it.

I don't think anyone disagrees with somebody looking for a raise. We all do it. I've never done it collectively as it's not something I believe in but I have looked for better money and sometimes you get it and sometimes you don't.

My line of work is different in that there is job mobility. I can move if i'm not happy with my conditions etc where as there aren't any other employers for tram drivers unless they take a career change.

What I disagree with is the cynical timing of this (coming into the election) and obviously the percentage increase they are looking for. Presumably though that's a negotiating tactic and they agree on a lower figure but still do well.

And then naturally enough I will disagree with any rise in ticket prices to pay for any increase they will receive. But obviously the union are aware that Joe Public has more take home pay this month arising from the budget and they feel we can afford to shoulder the burden.

bruno1x

devnull wrote: »

There is no chance that Dublin Bus will accept LUAS tickets, they should not have to, but if extra services can be laid on that might be a possibility, since people will still need to travel.

I believe there is a agreement for DB to accept Luas tickets if the service is stopped due to a accident or incident, this does not apply if the Luas is not running due to strike. So you will have to buy a bus ticket.
Remember DB cannot put on extra services unless the NTA give them permission.

bruno1x

When was the last time the LUAS drivers had a pay rise?
If we knew that it might look like a reasonable request.

end of the road

devnull wrote: »

I'm actually angry that they are doing this, especially when they do it over an election period to hold the whole country to ransom.

that would be impossible as luas or no transport service can hold the country to ransom. no country has been held to ransom by a strike. about all you would get is things been inconvenient.

bruno1x wrote: »

Sure is, a Tram is much easier to operate than a Bus.

how many years experience of driving a tram have you got? for what companies and in which country or countries have you worked?

devnull wrote: »

They have rights to claim a rise, no issue with that, but what they are looking for is too much.

thing is they really aren't looking for that much. the way it works is look for a high amount and then come down. they won't get that much of a rise that is a guarantee.

Infini

Wouldnt take all the facts from the media at face value. For example rail drivers dont earn 60k basic in IE its 55k max and thats for a driver at the top of the scale on a 48hr contract. (Media says 43.5 which doesnt exist which is just the start of the inaccuracies and hyperbole) Luas drivers are both lower paid and on lower hours as well. Cant blame em for looking for a pay rise either people think omg 50% pay rise sack em all aka haters gonna hate. A rate of under 40k per annum is not alot in this economy with all the indirect taxes etc but whenever they look for a more reasonable pay people react like theyre looking for 100k! Seriously that kinda attitude from people is why strikers shouldnt bother with some peoples attitudes theyd rather turn on those trying to improve their lot than those who rekt the country.

I hope they do get their pay rise they'll probably have to work similar longer hours to the rail drivers as well for the full lot but thats how these things go.

Oh and anyone trying to argue that its simple to drive a bus tram train should realise that its nowhere near that simple EXPECIALLY on rail vehicles which have even more stringent safety standards in part because of their much greater mass and destructive capability in a disaster. These are skilled jobs expecially with the training involved its not for village idiots.

Victor

bruno1x wrote: »

When was the last time the LUAS drivers had a pay rise?
If we knew that it might look like a reasonable request.

Compared to 2008, the cost of living is down 3.7%. And they want a 50% pay rise.

cdebru

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Well that's many years away, do you honestly believe 60,000 is an acceptable wage for driving a train for less than 40 hours a week.

The starting wage is higher than guards, other emergency workers and all graduates by up to 10,000 and they want it higher.

42,500 plus the 2,500 bonus is a very good wage for what they do.

An acceptable wage is as much as you can get, I don't begrudge them their wage or any rise they get good luck to them. We need well paid tram drivers its a responsible job, people need to stop the jealousy and thinking its in our interests to drag everyone down to the lowest possible wage.

eeguy

cdebru wrote: »

An acceptable wage is as much as you can get, I don't begrudge them their wage or any rise they get good luck to them. We need well paid tram drivers its a responsible job, people need to stop the jealousy and thinking its in our interests to drag everyone down to the lowest possible wage.

If people want professional wages then they should get a professional job.

A Luas driver starts on 6k more than a guard despite having only 5 weeks training compared to 9 months in Templemore.

markpb

cdebru wrote: »

people need to stop the jealousy and thinking its in our interests to drag everyone down to the lowest possible wage.

Its not in anyone's interests to keep forcing wages up either. If everyone's wages go up, costs must go up to cover that. If the costs go up, the wage increase was meaningless and another increase is needed. Eventually we cannot export anything because it's too expensive. Companies stop investing and things go pear shaped.

Stability is far more important than better wages. Of course, the shenanigans in the rental sector doesn't help this because people need better wages to keep living where they are.

end of the road

eeguy wrote: »

If people want professional wages then they should get a professional job.

they did. its called driving a light rail vehicle.

eeguy wrote: »

A Luas driver starts on 6k more than a guard despite having only 5 weeks training compared to 9 months in Templemore.

the amount of time training is irrelevant. they are both professional jobs

eeguy

end of the road wrote: »

they did. its called driving a light rail vehicle.

the amount of time training is irrelevant. they are both professional jobs

It's not a profession. Not according the the dictionary.

"A paid occupation, especially one that involves prolonged training and a formal qualification"

It's literally a job that anyone can do with a minimum training or experience.

end of the road

eeguy wrote: »

It's not a profession. Not according the the dictionary.

"A paid occupation, especially one that involves prolonged training and a formal qualification"

It's literally a job that anyone can do with a minimum training or experience.

no it isn't.its a professional job.

devnull

markpb wrote: »

Its not in anyone's interests to keep forcing wages up either. If everyone's wages go up, costs must go up to cover that. If the costs go up, the wage increase was meaningless and another increase is needed. Eventually we cannot export anything because it's too expensive.

Sounds like an analogy for the property market mortgages and banks when you put it like that during the economic crash So true though!

Only last week I saw a CIE employee saying that they are hoping that everything across the board will be back to the good old days before the crash and FF will be back in power again and hopefully this time the Germans won't destroy the great economy FF built.

Couldn't believe what I was hearing!

devnull

cdebru wrote: »

An acceptable wage is as much as you can get,

But if the person was a banker, from "management" or working for a quango, property developer, I'm sure you would not apply the same criteria if they argued that their wage was acceptable because of the fact they got as much as they could get?

All this thread illustrates is what I have said hundreds of times before, there is no such thing as a public service run solely for the benefit of the public, whether run by private or public companies, one group or another will syphoon off as much money as they can for their own interests.

eeguy

end of the road wrote: »

no it isn't.its a professional job.

How so?

It's nowhere near the same level or training or responsibility as any professional job. Scientists solicitors engineers accountants etc are professionals.

Luas drivers are not.

As I mentioned in another thread, you could sack the lot of them and have them replaced before the end of next month.

Jamie2k9

cdebru wrote: »

An acceptable wage is as much as you can get, I don't begrudge them their wage or any rise they get good luck to them. We need well paid tram drivers its a responsible job, people need to stop the jealousy and thinking its in our interests to drag everyone down to the lowest possible wage.

Yes because they are struggling on the current wages, the average wage as measured by GDP/GNP is around 32,000. All they do is a month or two or training and walk into a 30,000 + job and up to 44,000 in a few years. It's an easy ride for them for the little bit they do.

It's really not jealousy from me as I earn a lot more than they do however it took a lot longer.

I assume if you use the Luas you will be happy to make to the 30 million required?

magentis

eeguy wrote: »

If people want professional wages then they should get a professional job.

A Luas driver starts on 6k more than a guard despite having only 5 weeks training compared to 9 months in Templemore.

Do you really think that being a guard is some kind of step up on a tram driver?

I am neither but give me the tram any day.

Losty Dublin

eeguy wrote: »

As I mentioned in another thread, you could sack the lot of them and have them replaced before the end of next month.

It takes about 30 weeks to train in a driver, from initial aptitude tests, interviews, medicals and the actual training and obtaining the route knowledge time. Will you be okay waiting that long till the next tram?

Jamie2k9

magentis wrote: »

Do you really think that being a guard is some kind of step up on a tram driver?

I am neither but give me the tram any day.

Yes of course it is.

end of the road

eeguy wrote: »

Luas drivers are not.

they are

eeguy wrote: »

As I mentioned in another thread, you could sack the lot of them and have them replaced before the end of next month.

you couldn't. to do so would mean to much disruption. 1 day strike is cheepist cost to all and the least disruptive option.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

It takes about 30 weeks to train in a driver, from initial aptitude tests, interviews, medicals and the actual training and obtaining the route knowledge time. Will you be okay waiting that long till the next tram?

shur don't you know it really goes like this. "sack ja larra jem rabel rabel" "throw driver in ja cab begorra" "away ya go ta be sure ta be sure"

eeguy

Losty Dublin wrote: »

It takes about 30 weeks to train in a driver, from initial aptitude tests, interviews, medicals and the actual training and obtaining the route knowledge time. Will you be okay waiting that long till the next tram?

It's could be done in 5 weeks. Interviews medicals ect are not training and could be done in a day if they wanted.
You could advertise the job and have 5000 applicants by tomorrow.

"Veolia Transport, which operates the Luas, said the driver training course for Luas drivers follows best practice...
...Over five weeks they undergo written examinations, practical training and assessment by qualified assessors."

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/transport-firms-point-to-intense-safety-training-26566988.html

you couldn't. to do so would mean to much disruption. 1 day strike is cheepist cost to all and the least disruptive option.

Busses serve both Luas routes. Sure it'd be harder to get in, but not as bad as an intercity rail strike.

jimmycrackcorm

The good news is that the operating company can simply go bust. A new company can take over and employ new drivers where there will be long queues of applicants mite than happy to accept what are good salary levels for the work involved.

As for five weeks to train the drivers. I find that incredible. They don't even have to actually deal with the public or complex routes like bus drivers.

Even with a strike the impact won't be as hugely felt given bus alternatives. The real impact will be if SIPTU try to involve CIE workers.