IFA Elections 2016

greysides

The General Secretary thread is now closed as it has veered away from its original topic so this is the thread for discussion of the up-coming IFA elections.

This new thread also serves to draw an end to the leeway to normal decorum allowed previously. No uncivil behaviour will be tolerated.

For those who wish to follow the subject matter it is extremely off-putting to have to slog through the personalised insults and put-downs as antagonistic posters vie to best each other.

It does nothing to encourage other posters post their own valid opinions in such an environment.

It is intended that all who wish to participate in this thread will be able to do so and the moderators will be ensuring that a limited number of posters do not monopolise the thread. This will be at the discretion of the moderators.

I would suggest that:

i) You do other posters the courtesy of actually reading what they've written before rushing to reply. I've noticed people frequently getting the wrong end of the stick and posting in haste to a comment that doesn't exist.

ii) If a post inflames you to post a reply, please take a deep breath, wait to cool down and then post a considered response.
No one does themselves credit with a rushed reply- ask me how I know...

iii) If a post is considered to be offensive, defamatory or otherwise distasteful, do not reply in kind!
Report it and let us deal with it. That stops an argument spiralling out of control and limits the infractions to just the guilty party.

iv) There is no one forcing you to respond to any post. Sometimes ignoring a post is the best way to have it disappear from view rapidly.
Don't dignify it with a response.


It is rather a pity to have to mention these things at all but based on previous experience IFA topics tend to be problematic to moderate.

I wish it were not so and I'm hoping this one will be a new departure.

Farmer Ed

cute geoge wrote: »

Are you saying everything is still stage managed?
Who is pulling the string above there now and who will they put in to the hot seat.
I am from kerry and can honestly say f.mccarthy would never heard of him having too much input at county level but can see him as a steady pair of hands.
Burns is surely tainted by beef debacle last year that leaves just healy

To be fair I don't know McCarthy or any of the other candidates either. But I'm not surprised your view of him is that you 'can see him as a steady pair of hands". I would find it hard to believe that anyone who gets the nomination of 5 county chairmen, of a very conservative organisation, is going to do anything too radical to bring about any significant change,

Just look at these new rules for example. Seems pretty clear to me that the organisation and its self preservation, has become more important than the members it claims to represent.

Other rules and recommendations

The code of conduct says that candidates and their supporters shall not do or say anything that would cause “dissension or undermine the effectiveness of the Association”. All press statements and other communications by candidates to the media must be cleared in advance with the national press office.

Divisive campaigning or public statements such as those on “big/small”, “drystock/milk farmers”, and “east/west” should be avoided, as well as derogatory statements or references to the IFA, its policies, and other candidates.

All media advertising is prohibited throughout the campaign and the IFA will arrange for a mail-out of candidates’ literature to all its members.

tanko

Derek Deane on rte news soon, this should be a laugh.

rangler1

Is someone out to get me!!!!!, mr eds post kicking off the election thread and Derek Deane on the nine o clock news pleading to be let back into the race......Bet you Dereks got legal advice now that'll let him back in.

liam7831

New job must pay well too with Mr Deane so eager

rangler1

liam7831 wrote: »

New job must pay well too with Mr Deane so eager

He didn't get enough in the first spin on the gravy train, this just keeps on giving

coolshannagh28

He/she who wields the sword never wears the crown

whelan2

I don't understand though. The monaghan chairman said he would back him if tim wasn't in the race. Tim was still in the race at that time so the nomination doesn't come in to play. Am I missing something?

rangler1

whelan2 wrote: »

I don't understand though. The monaghan chairman said he would back him if tim wasn't in the race. Tim was still in the race at that time so the nomination doesn't come in to play. Am I missing something?

Hope you're right
Tim won't do him any favours after Derek being the whistleblower that destroyed tim.

Nekarsulm

And everyone was recording their own phone conversations

grassroot1

Should let Deane and O Leary run, I am sure they would get the answer they deserve.

Water John

Cant' even organise an election in their own organisation.
What a mess.

If they haven't the basics, get a solicitor or accountancy firm to conduct the election.
If there is a ban on press releases, it doesn't seem to be very effective.

Lads in HQ and National Council, get real, and don't be showing how amatuer you are.

Water John

Sorry to post again but reading the IT, they speak of 'horse trading' to keep people from getting nominated.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ifa-whistleblower-makes-last-ditch-attempt-to-re-enter-election-race-1.2488784

Perhaps Rangler you might be able to enlighten us to this. What do you think they are suggesting here?

Also this article states the IFA is furious with DD.
How can an organisation be furious?

rangler1

Water John wrote: »

Cant' even organise an election in their own organisation.
What a mess.

If they haven't the basics, get a solicitor or accountancy firm to conduct the election.
If there is a ban on press releases, it doesn't seem to be very effective.

Lads in HQ and National Council, get real, and don't be showing how amatuer you are.

, t

Did you not read greysides rules at the start,
of course they can run an election
get real, in case you haven't noticed this is Derek Deanes form,
I'll agree with you if rules committee yield to his tantrum
I had to tolerate two years of deanes carry on, so I wouldn't put much credibility on it

greysides

Water John wrote: »

Also this article states the IFA is furious with DD.

Clarification, from the link:

He has appealed to the IFA’s returning officer Jer Bergin to be allowed enter the race, though the IFA is understood to be furious about his attempts, claiming that the nomination rules were clear.

Daniel1122

Deane should look for an injunction fast. He should be supported. He is there best PR man.

rangler1

Water John wrote: »

Sorry to post again but reading the IT, they speak of 'horse trading' to keep people from getting nominated.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ifa-whistleblower-makes-last-ditch-attempt-to-re-enter-election-race-1.2488784

Perhaps Rangler you might be able to enlighten us to this. What do you think they are suggesting here?

Also this article states the IFA is furious with DD.
How can an organisation be furious?

Despite what you think, Derek had got peoples backs up before this blew up, and the vote of no confidence in smith confirms what I'm saying ...only a few would back him. so can't see how he was blocked, when he already he had people annoyed.
I think the IFA is probably the rules committee and irish times mistake in saying it that way
On reading the IT he probably had treanors nomination...but they didn't get it in in time

cute geoge

Who is this hierarchy in the ifa we all keep hearing about that pull the strings?
In the up coming election is it that every vote by every member that votes will be counted or is it the same system where the branches majority canidate gets the vote

CallofGuti

As I read it on the journal and watching rte, it's clear. Monaghan said yes if Tim was out, Tim was never out. Derek is being pathetic. Rte and others are pathetic for giving him and credence!

rangler1

cute geoge wrote: »

Who is this hierarchy in the ifa we all keep hearing about that pull the strings?
In the up coming election is it that every vote by every member that votes will be counted or is it the same system where the branches majority canidate gets the vote

Voting system is up for discussion. there seems to be support to change it,
if you think it's easy to pull the strings of farmers, you must know different farmers than I do

Water John

When you are nominating anyone, you cannot give a conditional 'yes'.
You either sign the piece of paper, scan it in and email it, or use the good old fax machine as the Dept of Ag relies on, before the deadline.
Follow up with original copy.
Same as any tender.

Ye are right, it looks like whinging.
It altogether looks poor.

rangler1

Water John wrote: »

When you are nominating anyone, you cannot give a conditional 'yes'.
You either sign the piece of paper, scan it in and email it, or use the good old fax machine as the Dept of Ag relies on, before the deadline.
Follow up with original copy.
Same as any tender.

Ye are right, it looks like whinging.
It altogether looks poor.

Told you what deane was like at the beginning of the gen sec thread

Daniel1122

Deane should be supported

Daniel1122

The ifa have been the best comedy act of 2015, and are looking good for 2016 at this stage.

rangler1

Daniel1122 wrote: »

The ifa have been the best comedy act of 2015, and are looking good for 2016 at this stage.

I used to say on here that it was good crack and ye's wouldn't believe me.
There's nowt like folk is there

WheatenBriar

rangler1 wrote: »

Told you what deane was like at the beginning of the gen sec thread

Any dealings I've ever had with Derek, and I don't know him that well, have been good, I think he's sound,has a good heart and is very capable, I wish him well

orm0nd

“I have a recording on my phone at 5.15pm on Wednesday evening from Brian Treanor, the Monaghan chairman, which says he has no problem supporting me if Tim O’Leary [the IFA’s deputy president] is out of the race, which was the case,” Mr Deane told The Irish Times.
He also claims that IFA headquarters was in contact with Mr Treanor close to the deadline, but an email from Mr Treanor failed to get through because of a technology failure."




I could have warned him about IFA Telecom

Daniel1122

very good

blue5000

Reading this from farmer Ed

Other rules and recommendations

The code of conduct says that candidates and their supporters shall not do or say anything that would cause “dissension or undermine the effectiveness of the Association”. All press statements and other communications by candidates to the media must be cleared in advance with the national press office.

Divisive campaigning or public statements such as those on “big/small”, “drystock/milk farmers”, and “east/west” should be avoided, as well as derogatory statements or references to the IFA, its policies, and other candidates.

All media advertising is prohibited throughout the campaign and the IFA will arrange for a mail-out of candidates’ literature to all its members

It looks like only non members can ask any critical questions on here, every existing member is probably going to vote, so is 'supporting' a candidate.

Missed it on rte, is DD (big tits?:eek:) in or out yet?

Nekarsulm

Ah, but who can prove or know whether any poster here (apart from rangler!) is an IFA member?

Farmer Ed

cute geoge wrote: »

Who is this hierarchy in the ifa we all keep hearing about that pull the strings?
In the up coming election is it that every vote by every member that votes will be counted or is it the same system where the branches majority canidate gets the vote

Well yes and no. Yes every vote will be counted but then they will be lumped together as branch votes. So in theory you could have a situation where a candidate wins the majority of the personal votes but still loses because he doesn't have the majority of branch votes.

IFA has its own version of democracy.
Personally I think it would have been a pr disaster if Tim was allowed run. But honestly I think it should have been left up to ordinary farmers to give him whatever answer they saw fit. Only allowing Co Chairmen to decide to me is taking away people's right to choose who they want as president and will always be a barrier to change.

Farmer Ed

blue5000 wrote: »

Reading this from farmer Ed

Other rules and recommendations

The code of conduct says that candidates and their supporters shall not do or say anything that would cause “dissension or undermine the effectiveness of the Association”. All press statements and other communications by candidates to the media must be cleared in advance with the national press office.

Divisive campaigning or public statements such as those on “big/small”, “drystock/milk farmers”, and “east/west” should be avoided, as well as derogatory statements or references to the IFA, its policies, and other candidates.

All media advertising is prohibited throughout the campaign and the IFA will arrange for a mail-out of candidates’ literature to all its members

It looks like only non members can ask any critical questions on here, every existing member is probably going to vote, so is 'supporting' a candidate.

Missed it on rte, is DD (big tits?:eek:) in or out yet?

Of course the Organization must be protected at all costs. Like transparency is all very well in principle. But like you can't have too much transparency.

Down with that sort of thing!

Nekarsulm

Farmer Ed wrote: »

Well yes and no. Yes every vote will be counted but then they will be lumped together as branch votes. So in theory you could have a situation where a candidate wins the majority of the personal votes but still loses because he doesn't have the majority of branch votes.

IFA has its own version of democracy.
e.

The only way to change this anomaly therefore is to restructure the organisation countrywide into constituencies each containing roughly equal numbers of farmers.
As our Dail elections are configured.
Moving away from a County structure.
Then there would be a lot more incentive for every candidate to ensure each actual farmer becomes a member, and thus a possible supporter of said candidate.
Then at least an elected candidate can be said to have been voted in by a majority of his/her peers, as opposed to bring voted in by a large number of small branches.

Two chances of this I suppose, Bob Hope and No Hope!

Farmer Ed

Nekarsulm wrote: »

The only way to change this anomaly therefore is to restructure the organisation countrywide into constituencies each containing roughly equal numbers of farmers.
As our Dail elections are configured.
Moving away from a County structure.
Then there would be a lot more incentive for every candidate to ensure each actual farmer becomes a member, and thus a possible supporter of said candidate.
Then at least an elected candidate can be said to have been voted in by a majority of his/her peers, as opposed to bring voted in by a large number of small branches.

Two chances of this I suppose, Bob Hope and No Hope!

That's not what I had in mind. First of all it should be up to ordinary farmers who they want as president and not have a selected choice presented to us by county Chairmen. And secondly it should be one man one vote in the same way as the Irish presidential election.

The way it's designed at the moment, anyone who is viewed as different or radical would never have a chance of getting on the ticket. How then can people expect change?

rangler1

Farmer Ed wrote: »

That's not what I had in mind. First of all it should be up to ordinary farmers who they want as president and not have a selected choice presented to us by county Chairmen. And secondly it should be one man one vote in the same way as the Irish presidential election.

The way it's designed at the moment, anyone who is viewed as different or radical would never have a chance of getting on the ticket. How then can people expect change?

Again, there's no organisation where you're going to start at the top and only a fool would vote for an unknown.
If you're worth the bother you'd move up the ladder very quick........Derek was national chairman on the livestock committee within 5 or six years of becoming involved.
I've even been asked to run against Bert Stewart, who ever does will walk it, but I wouldn't bother, and even if I wanted it I wouldn't take advantage of this situation.

rangler1

WheatenBriar wrote: »

Any dealings I've ever had with Derek, and I don't know him that well, have been good, I think he's sound,has a good heart and is very capable, I wish him well

I know, I've always canvassed for Derek, but he seems to have gone over the top in his quest to destroy Pat Smith, and he can be anti dairy farmer too

Farmer Ed

rangler1 wrote: »

Again, there's no organisation where you're going to start at the top and only a fool would vote for an unknown.
If you're worth the bother you'd move up the ladder very quick........Derek was national chairman on the livestock committee within 5 or six years of becoming involved.
I've even been asked to run against Bert Stewart, who ever does will walk it, but I wouldn't bother, and even if I wanted it I wouldn't take advantage of this situation.

I never said anything about ladders. But a system that has a screening system of candidates and then censorship of their cumuacations with the electorate can hardly be described as democracy.

greysides

rangler1 wrote: »

Again cop yourself on, there's no organisation where you're going to start at the top and only a fool would vote for an unknown.
If you're worth the bother you'd move up the ladder very quick........Derek was national chairman on the livestock committee within 5 or six years of becoming involved.
I've even been asked to run against Bert Stewart, who ever does will walk it, but I wouldn't bother, and even if I wanted it I wouldn't take advantage of this situation.

Mod: This is an example of what I don't want. Rangler please edit your post!

visatorro

yeah, wont be voting, don't give a ****e!

whelan2

rangler1 wrote: »

I know, I've always canvassed for Derek, but he seems to have gone over the top in his quest to destroy Pat Smith, and he can be anti dairy farmer too

In fairness though we wouldn't have all this out in the open only for he pushed the detonate button

Bass Reeves

Why not use a postal vote system. If members are good enough to pay there dues why not send them out a postal ballot to them. Cost is minimal and might encourage larger parciptation.

You then could have county type canvass/debate meeting where all candidates would get there chance to put there plans for the organisation across. However this would limit county/banch chairpersons ability to favour one candidate.

This might also envigerate the organisation as it might encourage more participation by members.

whelan2

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Why not use a postal vote system. If members are good enough to pay there dues why not send them out a postal ballot to them. Cost is minimal and might encourage larger parciptation.

You then could have county type canvass/debate meeting where all candidates would get there chance to put there plans for the organisation across. However this would limit county/banch chairpersons ability to favour one candidate.

This might also envigerate the organisation as it might encourage more participation by members.

This bugs me- not you;)- but we are in an electronic age,why can we not vote on line? Use membership number to log on, surely couldnt be any worse than the proxy system in place at the minute which is very open to manipulation

rangler1

whelan2 wrote: »

This bugs me- not you;)- but we are in an electronic age,why can we not vote on line? Use membership number to log on, surely couldnt be any worse than the proxy system in place at the minute which is very open to manipulation

When I act as returning officer, I have to make sure that the proxy votes are actually from the member and only one vote per person there on the might any other system would facilitate someone gathering up numerous ballot papers

Bass Reeves

whelan2 wrote: »

This bugs me- not you;)- but we are in an electronic age, can we not vote on line?

Democracy has to be seen to be in action. Nothing like an election count to show democracy in action. This was why the electronic ballot boxes failed in Ireland. Voting and counting has to be always to be transparent.

It like a general election it nice to see the the candidates sweat for a while. Also it give those cadidates taht will lose a chance to come to terms with there impemding failure. When Nora Ownes lost her seat in the that electronic ballot box fiasco the one thing that really shocked her was the suddenness of it and not haveing time to comes to terms with your impending failure to get elected.


Elections belong to the people. It's their decision. If they decide to turn their back on the fire and burn their behinds, then they will just have to sit on their blisters.”
― Abraham Lincoln

In a democracy, someone who fails to get elected to office can always console himself with the thought that there was something not quite fair about it.”
― Thucydides, History of the Peloponnesian War

Farmer Ed

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Why not use a postal vote system. If members are good enough to pay there dues why not send them out a postal ballot to them. Cost is minimal and might encourage larger parciptation.

You then could have county type canvass/debate meeting where all candidates would get there chance to put there plans for the organisation across. However this would limit county/banch chairpersons ability to favour one candidate.

This might also envigerate the organisation as it might encourage more participation by members.

I couldn't agree more, Give the power to the members and not just push an agenda on them.

freedominacup

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Why not use a postal vote system. If members are good enough to pay there dues why not send them out a postal ballot to them. Cost is minimal and might encourage larger parciptation.

You then could have county type canvass/debate meeting where all candidates would get there chance to put there plans for the organisation across. However this would limit county/banch chairpersons ability to favour one candidate.

This might also envigerate the organisation as it might encourage more participation by members.

Afaik John fitz in Waterford has taken direction from the county executive (which is a fancy name for your neighbour and others like them who could be bothered his/her hole to be a branch delegate and go to the monthly meetings) at every step during this episode. I wasn't at Agm on Mon night but I know Lucey report was being discussed and I assume a vote was taken regarding which candidate would be supported.

As regards the voting system it works reasonably well for electing US presidents apart from one glitch I can think of. As always decisions are made by the people who turn up. Postal voting would be a ridiculous waste of money. If you want to vote turn up to the meeting.

That said the rules on canvassing and publishing election literature are a bit ridiculous and in the case of canvassing impossible to police. What are the Ifa going to do? subpoena my phone records if I call to a few neighbours places looking for support for X to see if I've had any contact with X before I canvassed for them. Similarly what's to stop friends of X going mad on social media under some sort of a friend's of X heading or by the same token someone looking to cause trouble for X going mad on social media and attributing all sorts commentary to X's campaign if the Ida head office really try to police it.

What is the proposed salary?

Bass Reeves

freedominacup wrote: »

Afaik John fitz in Waterford has taken direction from the county executive (which is a fancy name for your neighbour and others like them who could be bothered his/her hole to be a branch delegate and go to the monthly meetings) at every step during this episode. I wasn't at Agm on Mon night but I know Lucey report was being discussed and I assume a vote was taken regarding which candidate would be supported.

As regards the voting system it works reasonably well for electing US presidents apart from one glitch I can think of. As always decisions are made by the people who turn up. Postal voting would be a ridiculous waste of money. If you want to vote turn up to the meeting.

That said the rules on canvassing and publishing election literature are a bit ridiculous and in the case of canvassing impossible to police. What are the Ifa going to do? subpoena my phone records if I call to a few neighbours places looking for support for X to see if I've had any contact with X before I canvassed for them. Similarly what's to stop friends of X going mad on social media under some sort of a friend's of X heading or by the same token someone looking to cause trouble for X going mad on social media and attributing all sorts commentary to X's campaign if the Ida head office really try to police it.

What is the proposed salary?

There are four US presidents elected after losing popular vote. John Quiency Adams was the first but since then Rutherfird Hayes, Benjamin Harrison and George Bush have all being elected after losing popular vote. the intresting thing is all three of them were Republicans. That is out of 57 elections

coolshannagh28

The nature of the election is offputting and the machinations revealed here and elsewhere are distasteful , it indicates ignorance of ordinary farmers particularly in light of the levels of graft evident at the decision making level of the organisation , but its a classic way of dealing with dissent and ignoring it at the same time.

rangler1

freedominacup wrote: »

Afaik John fitz in Waterford has taken direction from the county executive (which is a fancy name for your neighbour and others like them who could be bothered his/her hole to be a branch delegate and go to the monthly meetings) at every step during this episode. I wasn't at Agm on Mon night but I know Lucey report was being discussed and I assume a vote was taken regarding which candidate would be supported.

As regards the voting system it works reasonably well for electing US presidents apart from one glitch I can think of. As always decisions are made by the people who turn up. Postal voting would be a ridiculous waste of money. If you want to vote turn up to the meeting.

That said the rules on canvassing and publishing election literature are a bit ridiculous and in the case of canvassing impossible to police. What are the Ifa going to do? subpoena my phone records if I call to a few neighbours places looking for support for X to see if I've had any contact with X before I canvassed for them. Similarly what's to stop friends of X going mad on social media under some sort of a friend's of X heading or by the same token someone looking to cause trouble for X going mad on social media and attributing all sorts commentary to X's campaign if the Ida head office really try to police it.

What is the proposed salary?

Good post, rules and constitution are out there for the members, if they're not happy they know what to do,
A couple candidates had a go at each other in the press a few elections back, that's why statements have to get the OK

Farmer Ed

Bass Reeves wrote: »

There are four US presidents elected after losing popular vote. John Quiency Adams was the first but since then Rutherfird Hayes, Benjamin Harrison and George Bush have all being elected after losing popular vote. the intresting thing is all three of them were Republicans. That is out of 57 elections

Also what someone described as "the best democracy money can buy" at least the US people have some say in who stands for election. Not so in IFA.

I'm sorry to say it is looking increasingly likely that Ranglers prediction that nothing will change, is likely to be correct. Seems like there are a lot of different understandings of what transparency and democracy actually mean.

rangler1

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

The nature of the election is offputting and the machinations revealed here and elsewhere are distasteful , it indicates ignorance of ordinary farmers particularly in light of the levels of graft evident at the decision making level of the organisation , but its a classic way of dealing with dissent and ignoring it at the same time.

If there's a genuine greiviance supported by enough people, there is a system there and there's also a system there for dealing with genuine specific cases, it's not utopia but it covers a lot