Air to Water

Olivia89

Hello,

I have a new air to water heating system and am hoping for advice please.

Do I increase and decrease the heat settings depending on whether I am in the house or at work etc or is it best to leave it at a certain temp permanently and only adjust in warm weather etc??

THE DON FANUCCI

Olivia89 wrote: »

Hello,

I have a new air to water heating system and am hoping for advice please.

Do I increase and decrease the heat settings depending on whether I am in the house or at work etc or is it best to leave it at a certain temp permanently and only adjust in warm weather etc??

Would love to hear from anyone with air-to-water heat pump system.

Does this fulfil all your heating needs i.e. does it heat your kitchen taps and rads? is there a noise from the fan unit outside ? Can you just switch off the unit when you want or is it a 24/7 jobbie

Philburns

Hi Olivia, what heating system are you using? Is it radiators or under floor, or something else?

Philburns

And what kind of house do you live in, how well insulated?

MENACE2010

Hi

we have a Airsource heatpump for 3 yrs now and I can share my experiences .. ( so far)

our Pump (thermia) has a calendar setting for the following things ..( these are our settings , by no means correct before someone jumps on my post)

Hot water
Hot generation only happens at night - 11PM - 09 Am Mon - fri , 11PM - 10 AM Sunday / Saturday to cover for sports


Heating
We have a reduced heat setting from 09 AM - 17:00 PM - 18*C , 17:00 - 09:00 its is 20*C
now here is wher i went wrong initially , its the temperature curve setting. The Underfloor heating and heat-pump provide a Climate rather than instant heat if that makes sense. (underfloor heating does not respond as fast as a radiator) to get to the achieve temperature.

You can set the temperature of the water on the heat-pump in other words you can tell the pump how hot the water should be for the equivalent temperature outside to get the temperature in the house.

initially I had the temperature curve to high = very high water temperature versus outside temperature , what meant sometimes the house "over shot " the temperature i wanted , eg 23 - 24 degrees.

After two winters i know applied a different strategy . Aim as low as possible turn water temperature low as possible , the house will get cold, now in small steps everyday increase the temperature of the water till the house is warm enough ( 19- 20*C for us) . now what is happening is that the house is "nippy" around 5PM through heatloss , but that changes in an hour (underfloor heating needs to kick in) and alternatively we light a fire in the stove if we need a heat fix.

we leave the thermostats open .. we don't use them , I have altered the flow rate of certain zones. though .. for example the downstairs bath room was very cosy , only to discover the flow rate was high and i turned it down a notch, same for the boys bedrooms . its lower as they don't need that much heat. I increased the living areas were we spend the most time.

again its taken time to get here .. you need a cold winter to tweak it to your liking

Good luck , if needed PM me ;o}

BarneyMc

MENACE2010 wrote: »

Hi

we have a Airsource heatpump for 3 yrs now and I can share my experiences .. ( so far)

our Pump (thermia) has a calendar setting for the following things ..( these are our settings , by no means correct before someone jumps on my post)

Hot water
Hot generation only happens at night - 11PM - 09 Am Mon - fri , 11PM - 10 AM Sunday / Saturday to cover for sports


Heating
We have a reduced heat setting from 09 AM - 17:00 PM - 18*C , 17:00 - 09:00 its is 20*C
now here is wher i went wrong initially , its the temperature curve setting. The Underfloor heating and heat-pump provide a Climate rather than instant heat if that makes sense. (underfloor heating does not respond as fast as a radiator) to get to the achieve temperature.

You can set the temperature of the water on the heat-pump in other words you can tell the pump how hot the water should be for the equivalent temperature outside to get the temperature in the house.

initially I had the temperature curve to high = very high water temperature versus outside temperature , what meant sometimes the house "over shot " the temperature i wanted , eg 23 - 24 degrees.

After two winters i know applied a different strategy . Aim as low as possible turn water temperature low as possible , the house will get cold, now in small steps everyday increase the temperature of the water till the house is warm enough ( 19- 20*C for us) . now what is happening is that the house is "nippy" around 5PM through heatloss , but that changes in an hour (underfloor heating needs to kick in) and alternatively we light a fire in the stove if we need a heat fix.

we leave the thermostats open .. we don't use them , I have altered the flow rate of certain zones. though .. for example the downstairs bath room was very cosy , only to discover the flow rate was high and i turned it down a notch, same for the boys bedrooms . its lower as they don't need that much heat. I increased the living areas were we spend the most time.

again its taken time to get here .. you need a cold winter to tweak it to your liking

Good luck , if needed PM me ;o}

Did you use a liquid screed or sand/cement floor and how does this work with your system, i.e. quick heat release liquid screed v slow heat release sand/cement? Thanks.

MENACE2010

we have basic cement screed nothing really sexy, tiles in the main areas and laminate in the other rooms .. if you use laminate ensure to use low insulation sound damping ( I think the bedroom have some fancy expensive underlay) . It works don't break your head over it .. it works the will be people telling what i should have done .. but I didn't ..

Doorcase

Just starting to build and undecided to go for pump yet. Im just wondering if you were to build again would you still go for it or a more conventional system

MENACE2010

Good question .. If I would build again .. ( if I could and the missus would )

I would use the same or similar, probably use geothermal instead though. Its really good, the heat recovery though is the true star here.. its really good the house has fresh air all day long without losing al lot of heat . (in otherwords is not saving all the energy but a lot of it ) . I would

- build smaller
- different Septic tank system (reed bed)
- rain water harvesting system for the house ..
- smaller site .. ;o}

mark11original

Hi, I'm looking for some information on air to water systems also. Going to start building later this year. I want to price up a few different air to water systems. I have got a price of a Therima and of a Danfoss which I have found out since are the exact same system.

What would be the best air to water systems available in Ireland?

Thanks

Doorcase

From my research your best sticking to mitsubishi daikin or ochsner. Ochsner are very expensive. Hard to justify the massive cost. But if you can afford it they are the best.

MENACE2010

Doorcase wrote: »

From my research your best sticking to mitsubishi daikin or ochsner. Ochsner are very expensive. Hard to justify the massive cost. But if you can afford it they are the best.

Also check the company you are buying the pumps from , After-sales service is important , eg no point really buying far a field if the support is not there for you. There is a good company in Dublin that so far have been excellent. PM me if you want to know

ferryman35

MENACE2010 wrote: »

Also check the company you are buying the pumps from , After-sales service is important , eg no point really buying far a field if the support is not there for you. There is a good company in Dublin that so far have been excellent. PM me if you want to know

The Thermia/Danfoss unit is a good enough product but there is also even better out there, and not dramatically more expensive than its competitors. If you'd like more info feel free to PM.

Whichever unit you choose, its important to check the low temperature performance i.e when you most need the energy from the unit

Also, frosting can be an issue because our climate is damper than many - some units have an hourly 10 minute defrost cycle - during which time they take heat back out of the house to defrost.

mark11original

Doorcase wrote: »

From my research your best sticking to mitsubishi daikin or ochsner. Ochsner are very expensive. Hard to justify the massive cost. But if you can afford it they are the best.

Thanks, I have actually heard of Ochsner. I was looking at them today online and I phoned a company selling them. They seem to work on a different principle compared to others. (or so I'm told) Any ideas of the price of them? I wasn't given any info on prices when I phoned today.

Doorcase

For underfloor and their best pump you will be doing well to get for 30k. I got quoted 35k for 2733 sq foot story and half.

mark11original

Pricey stuff so. My house will be 2450sq ft and a thermia is coming in at 17000 including ufh throughout the whole house.

adrianm1234

anyone heard of ES heatpumps .Swedish make. just wondering has anyone got one of them in and how good they perform . Co in Cork selling them "ES Heatpumps". Awaiting a blocklayers on new build and head wrecked trying to get best most economical heat system that will meet part L. Advised on a2w but still a little iffy. Thanks in advance

Doorcase

Hi, at same stage myself. builder just started. Have came down to a few considering price. Down to Ecodan, thermia or daikin. Leaning towards Ecodan as it is build for this part of world. Thermia is a swedish brand and is not inverter driven so vary of it. Best of luck

adrianm1234

Doorcase wrote: »

Hi, at same stage myself. builder just started. Have came down to a few considering price. Down to Ecodan, thermia or daikin. Leaning towards Ecodan as it is build for this part of world. Thermia is a swedish brand and is not inverter driven so vary of it. Best of luck

Cheers Doorcase.I'll have a look at Ecodan also. The Es pump inverter too . Is inverter a better option.I need to study this a bit more me thinks

Doorcase

Have a look on harp database for ratings of pumps (SPF)

ferryman35

I'm not sure that the Ecodan is built for this part of the world. You'll see it mentioned in numerous previous posts that the Asian models tend to be developed from air-conditioning units, and are smaller in physical size than European models.

They are fine in drier climates but in a damp climate like ours they will tend to freeze over quicker / more often and they are losing output/efficiency having to defrost.

You also have to be careful interpreting the Harp Database at the moment because there is a new Energy rating label system being introduced and that for some reason has had an impact on the Hard DB.

Inverter (also called modulating) Heatpumps are where the technology is going, but there is nothing wrong with fixed speed units especially if you have a buffer. In fact, some prefer the fixed speed technology.

Their is a good choice of reliable and good performing machines available from Northern European manufactures and any of those would do well in our climate, though some are better than others!!

rolion

I was making the maths here:
if i go with HP and cancel the gas line, then i will have to pay all the related taxes associated to electricity supply only.
Saving around 30-50 per bill.

Makes sense or i'm missing something !?

air

rolion wrote: »

I was making the maths here:
if i go with HP and cancel the gas line, then i will have to pay all the related taxes associated to electricity supply only.
Saving around 30-50 per bill.

Makes sense or i'm missing something !?

The standing charges for gas are tiny, I get a bi-monthly bill of €15 during the summer months for zero usage.

Doorcase

Any suggestion on top nordic pumps then

mark11original

Hi, I spent a bit of time researching air to water heat pumps also this year. I haven't come across ES heat pumps. I looked at Thermia and Danfoss which are the exact same machine. BER man ruled them out as to pass part L both need a wood log stove. Next up was Daikin - good machine and passed all the requirements but as mentioned above it is a developed from air-conditioning units. IVT Bosch came out on top as the most efficient and has a variable speed compressor.

Calahonda52

mark11original wrote: »

Hi, I spent a bit of time researching air to water heat pumps also this year. I haven't come across ES heat pumps. I looked at Thermia and Danfoss which are the exact same machine. BER man ruled them out as to pass part L both need a wood log stove. Next up was Daikin - good machine and passed all the requirements but as mentioned above it is a developed from air-conditioning units. IVT Bosch came out on top as the most efficient and has a variable speed compressor.

For the benefit of others, including me, can you elaborate on this point please?
Thank you

murphaph

The Panasonic Aquarea series has a dedicated fan base over here. Supposed to be a very solid unit and they are modular do you can add to them to increase heat output should you need to.

rolion

murphaph wrote: »

The Panasonic Aquarea series has a dedicated fan base over here. Supposed to be a very solid unit and they are modular do you can add to them to increase heat output should you need to.

Read on one of their brochures that Aquarea has variable speed pumps as well .

FiOT

My two pence, however much it's worth, is to think about who is supplying your heat pump as well as what heat pump you're getting.

A well - reviewed company with good customer service definitely won it for us between two similar heat pumps in the end. No point in having a fabulous product if there's nobody to come and see it if it needs to be fixed in the future!

halfforward

FiOT wrote: »

My two pence, however much it's worth, is to think about who is supplying your heat pump as well as what heat pump you're getting.

A well - reviewed company with good customer service definitely won it for us between two similar heat pumps in the end. No point in having a fabulous product if there's nobody to come and see it if it needs to be fixed in the future!

Who did you go with? PM please
Trying to decide?

Heater

Hi all. After seeing both thermia and danfoss heatpumps in houses householders happy with them but I think the Daikin heatpumps are a step ahead of them in efficiency.

soundskin

For those trying to choose heat pumps. Think 5-10 years down the line

1. Will the company installing exist in 5 years plus
2. Have they a dedicated service team
3. Ask the company what is the cost of replacing a compressor, inverter card (if it has one) and
4. What are the most common faults on your heat pump (if they don't have any then they have created a miracle machine)
5. Every heat pump will be replaced someday or will get a new compressor in 5-15 years. Plan for it. It will happen.

exaisle

MENACE2010 wrote: »

Hi

we have a Airsource heatpump for 3 yrs now and I can share my experiences .. ( so far)

our Pump (thermia) has a calendar setting for the following things ..( these are our settings , by no means correct before someone jumps on my post)

Hot water
Hot generation only happens at night - 11PM - 09 Am Mon - fri , 11PM - 10 AM Sunday / Saturday to cover for sports


Heating
We have a reduced heat setting from 09 AM - 17:00 PM - 18*C , 17:00 - 09:00 its is 20*C
now here is wher i went wrong initially , its the temperature curve setting. The Underfloor heating and heat-pump provide a Climate rather than instant heat if that makes sense. (underfloor heating does not respond as fast as a radiator) to get to the achieve temperature.

You can set the temperature of the water on the heat-pump in other words you can tell the pump how hot the water should be for the equivalent temperature outside to get the temperature in the house.

initially I had the temperature curve to high = very high water temperature versus outside temperature , what meant sometimes the house "over shot " the temperature i wanted , eg 23 - 24 degrees.

After two winters i know applied a different strategy . Aim as low as possible turn water temperature low as possible , the house will get cold, now in small steps everyday increase the temperature of the water till the house is warm enough ( 19- 20*C for us) . now what is happening is that the house is "nippy" around 5PM through heatloss , but that changes in an hour (underfloor heating needs to kick in) and alternatively we light a fire in the stove if we need a heat fix.

we leave the thermostats open .. we don't use them , I have altered the flow rate of certain zones. though .. for example the downstairs bath room was very cosy , only to discover the flow rate was high and i turned it down a notch, same for the boys bedrooms . its lower as they don't need that much heat. I increased the living areas were we spend the most time.

again its taken time to get here .. you need a cold winter to tweak it to your liking

Good luck , if needed PM me ;o}

I think you might be as well off leaving the system running 24 hours a day. The difficulty in producing heat at night is that you're running the system when it's at its most inefficient (ie when the outside temp is at its lowest) so the system has to work harder (and use more electricity) and its starting from a lower temp. I'm open to correction but with warmer air running through the outdoor unit, it may need to defrost less regularly too...
I agree with having a low heat curve though...and interesting that you use the flow rate to adjust the heat in certain rooms although the thermostats do the same thing but just in a different way...

darkdave265

I put my heap pump in early last year and i can honestly say its one of the best investments ive ever made. I suppose the fact that i was using oil before, would make it easy to see my payback on my investment. My outdoor unit is a Toshiba variable speed compressor which comes with a 10year manufactures warranty and i believe its one of the best out there.

zulutango

If you're building from scratch make sure to really spend on insulation, air tightness and lowest possible u-values for windows especially. If you do that then your heating system is less of an issue, and you'll save much more money in the long run.

mark11original

Calahonda52 wrote: »

For the benefit of others, including me, can you elaborate on this point please?
Thank you

Thermia and Danfoss would not pass part L for me as not enough of kw of renewable energy produced. A wood burning stove (burns wood only) was then required. A new build must create 10kw of renewable energy

adrianm1234

halfforward wrote: »

FiOT wrote: »

My two pence, however much it's worth, is to think about who is supplying your heat pump as well as what heat pump you're getting.

A well - reviewed company with good customer service definitely won it for us between two similar heat pumps in the end. No point in having a fabulous product if there's nobody to come and see it if it needs to be fixed in the future!

Who did you go with? PM please
Trying to decide?

ME TOO pm please

rolion

zulutango wrote: »

If you're building from scratch make sure to really spend on insulation, air tightness and lowest possible u-values for windows especially. If you do that then your heating system is less of an issue, and you'll save much more money in the long run.

Well put it,Sir !
I dont know how to quiet say it...but i've seen and heard people spending a fortune off their budget in heating systems but ignoring the thermal envelope !

Doorcase

Have talked to so many people who have heat pumps and underfloor and to be honest a good majority say they would not go with it again if given the chance. I am thinking of putting it in but it seems impossible almost to pass with solar and oil

air

A lot of people put in heat pumps 10 years ago or more into houses that didn't have enough insulation. Underfloor can be very expensive to run in a poorly insulated house for obvious reasons - heat losses through the floor and wall footings as well as a higher average temperature within the house.
With a house well built to current building regulations this should not be an issue.

BarneyMc

Doorcase wrote: »

Have talked to so many people who have heat pumps and underfloor and to be honest a good majority say they would not go with it again if given the chance. I am thinking of putting it in but it seems impossible almost to pass with solar and oil

What levels of insulation and air tightness do they have?

If you can install a hybrid system of wind and solar P.V then it doesn't really matter the air tightness and the insulation , well it matters but if your energy is free it's a lot less of an issue.

In fact if you got enough wind and solar PV you can probably save a lot of money by eliminating the heat pump altogether and use storage heaters.

Hopefully a feed in tariff will be introduced in 2018 and it will make wind and solar PV a lot more viable, there needs to be grants for this also. It's ridiculous there's no grant either.

A turbine and Solar P.V is the ideal way to go. Just a 3 Kw turbine has the potential to generate possibly 72 Kwh at max production in 24 hrs. Or at 2 Kw 48 Kwh in 24 hrs.

There's a huge limit in our grid, we can only send 5 Kw max to the grid, this needs to improve.

If you really want to harvest as much energy as possible from solar PV then a tesla powerwall might be your solution, I question the economics of it.

Water John

The reality for most builds is high insulation and sealed envelope. Heating bill then will actually be quite low €4/600 per year.
Also with a sealed envelope be sure to install MHRV costing about 5K. Very little operating cost.
With those low annual running costs, the diff in COP between A2W and Geothermal doesn't justify the extra capital cost.
The use of UFH or Alu Rads is a personal choice. Certainly would not bother with UFH upstairs, just alu rads.
Set Thermostats in living area to 20/21 C. Bedrooms at 18 and can drop to 16 c at night.

Water solar heating is a complete waste of money and very poor ROI. Saves about €170/year and costs 3/5K. Just think how much hot water you actually use?

Doorcase

A much as i agree with your views on HRV i am trying to build on a budget. Have the new regulations put a end to building a good house at a reasonable price. HRV is addition 5k...its not peanuts. will be taping windows and doors and making house as air tight as possible. And does anyone know anything about completion cert ? seem to hear more about commencment notice than cpmpletion cert. Do you need it

KCross

Water John wrote: »

With those low annual running costs, the diff in COP between A2W and Geothermal doesn't justify the extra capital cost.



Set Thermostats in living area to 20/21 C. Bedrooms at 18 and can drop to 16 c at night.

What are typical A2W quotes like these days?
The difference in capital costs wasn't that different when I was buying(2011).

And I think it's worth pointing out that the capital cost isn't the only factor, you also have to consider how long the HP will last. Obviously A2W will die long before a geothermal will. Any savings day 1 could then be lost.


On the temps... If I dropped my bedrooms to that level I'd be handed divorce papers!!

Water John

Ah K you must not be cuddlly enough!!!.
Well bedroom temps can be done the other way round. 16 by day and raise to 18 in the evening.
Not sure why you say A2w will die much sooner than geo. Both are basically reverse fridges.
Because of the sealed building, HRV is required. The building and the stale air in it will not be healthy. To my mind a sealed building and HRV go together. Otherwise you will have sick building syndrome and a real headache.
I know its 5K, but consider it as an integral part of you heating budget.
I don't see it as an optional extra in this case.
I'm not anti geo, would prefer it in fact but you must have the correct subsoil not stony or shale. Just think the plug and play aspect of A2W makes it more accessible for many people. I know some poor units were sold here in the past which froze up in cold weather but I'd say most now on the market are fine.
I would have a back up dry stove for safety.

KCross

Water John wrote: »

Ah K you must not be cuddlly enough!!!.
Well bedroom temps can be done the other way round. 16 by day and raise to 18 in the evening.
Not sure why you say A2w will die much sooner than geo. Both are basically reverse fridges.
Because of the sealed building, HRV is required. The building and the stale air in it will not be healthy. To my mind a sealed building and HRV go together. Otherwise you will have sick building syndrome and a real headache.
I know its 5K, but consider it as an integral part of you heating budget.
I don't see it as an optional extra in this case.
I'm not anti geo, would prefer it in fact but you must have the correct subsoil not stony or shale. Just think the plug and play aspect of A2W makes it more accessible for many people. I know some poor units were sold here in the past which froze up in cold weather but I'd say most now on the market are fine.
I would have a back up dry stove for safety.

HRV is a must have if you have an air tight house.

Geo and A2W are based on the same tech but the A2W is physically outside and open to the elements and they still have the frosting issues where they have to use energy to defrost which means the unit has to work harder to achieve the same result as Geo. A2W also has more components to go wrong. This gives it a shorter lifespan and more maintenance.

Whether the extra initial cost for Geo is worth it is the big debate. It wasn't much extra for me as I had a relative do the digging for me so that only cost a few hundred. It remains to be seen how long the A2W units survive but cheapest isn't necessarily best is the point I'm making.

air

Geothermal doesn't really make sense any longer for new homes as the total heat demand through the year is so small that you're not going to make back the capital cost of the boreholes or trenching through increased efficiency. You would need a huge house or swimming pool or other high heat demand use to justify it now. The outdoor unit of an ASHP may have to be replaced after 10 years and you do need a secondary heat source for extreme conditions, but overall air source still makes more sense than putting a lot of capital into the civils works required for ground source.

Water John

Water to water would make sense for many rural houses with a good well supply. COP up to six, with a stainless steel exchanger. Small second borehole is all that is needed for water disposal.
Only a few do them. Would be interested in hearing on them.

KCross

air wrote: »

Geothermal doesn't really make sense any longer for new homes as the total heat demand through the year is so small that you're not going to make back the capital cost of the boreholes or trenching through increased efficiency. You would need a huge house or swimming pool or other high heat demand use to justify it now. The outdoor unit of an ASHP may have to be replaced after 10 years and you do need a secondary heat source for extreme conditions, but overall air source still makes more sense than putting a lot of capital into the civils works required for ground source.

Boreholes are expensive, I'll give you that. Horizontal pipes are not. I know they are ground conditions dependent. A few days in an excavator is in the hundreds, not thousands.

Admitting that you might have to replace an ASHP after 10 years should sound some alarm bells! How much is it to replace that?

And the need for secondary heat source adds to your capital as well

I'm not saying GSHP is always the way to go but I would recommend you get quotes for both and weigh up the lifetime costs and not just the initial costs.

How much is an ASHP today?

Heat pumps make perfect sense with renewable energy set ups, can run it for almost free, a hybrid, wind + Solar PV and in particularly when the Feed-In-Tariff returns you will sell all the excess to the grid and buy it back when you need to , if they can give you at least the night rate for electricity then you will pay back the installation a lot faster.

If you can get enough renewable energy you might not even need the heat pump....... All depends on the feed-in-tariff.

The Government need to provide grants also, but they want us consuming energy because it's too easy to tax...... though you'll be taxed on renewable energy you send to the grid also but it's going to make pay back a lot faster.

Is there a grant for a heat pump and how much ?

The Heat Pump in my EV is very efficient so I am quiet interested in air to water pumps, as a potential retrofit option.