Cow Aborted

ferger1

I had a cow aborted yesterday evening, she was nearly 3 weeks away from calving. She was in a pen with 6 other cows, when I noticed her with her tail out. I quickly removed her to a straw bed, where within half an hour she had thrown out the dead calf. The calf looked normal.

She hadn't shown any signs of springing up, and I have a fairly exact date to her due date as she was AI'd.

Shes been vaccinated for lepto the last couple of years and she was in with a settled bunch of cows, so I don't think bullying was an issue. No dogs around the yard only cats.

Anyone with any ideas, as its very frustrating as she was one of my best cows and I was hoping to get a replacement off her:(

Kovu

Neosporosis? Salmonella? Placental separation? Aspergillus from mouldy silage? There's any number of underlying causes.
Was the calf fresh or dead a couple days? If it was in her a while you'd want to watch her for infection.

Will you get a PM done?

tanko

It's hard to know, a belt from another cow would be the most likely cause I'd say. Can all the cows eat comfortably at the barrier at the same time?
It's a real sickner when it happens so close to calving.

ferger1

Kovu wrote: »

Neosporosis? Salmonella? Placental separation? Aspergillus from mouldy silage? There's any number of underlying causes.
Was the calf fresh or dead a couple days? If it was in her a while you'd want to watch her for infection.

Will you get a PM done?

The calf seemed fresh enough. Im feeding pit silage, so any mouldy silage is discarded, not to say a small bit doesn't get through, but it would be small.

Yeah im considering getting a PM done, do they test for the diseases you mentioned above or do you have to specify?

Im also feeding some straw with the silage as the cows are in good condition and could do with been cut back. The only thing is the shed where the straw is stored, the neighbouring cats make there way in and seem to use it as there living quarters in the bad weather.

ferger1

tanko wrote: »

It's hard to know, a belt from another cow would be the most likely cause I'd say. Can all the cows eat comfortably at the barrier at the same time?
It's a real sickner when it happens so close to calving.

Yeah, I have seven per pen, so they can all eat at the one time. She wouldn't be the most dominant cow, but shed be no pushover either.

My head is melted over it, especially when you try to do everything right...vaccinations, minerals, etc. Just worried about the rest now.

Kovu

I've never had a PM done so can't be sure. They'd probably check for the most likely causes first. Odd that the calf wasn't alive with only three weeks to go. Starved of oxygen perhaps? We can only guess at this stage.
It's a real kick to the teeth especially so late in term after bringing the cow so far.

Sam Kade

ferger1 wrote: »

Yeah, I have seven per pen, so they can all eat at the one time. She wouldn't be the most dominant cow, but shed be no pushover either.

My head is melted over it, especially when you try to do everything right...vaccinations, minerals, etc. Just worried about the rest now.

I had one in early December about 2 months from calving, I sent the calf to the lab all tests were clear. Something the same as your situation cows in a few weeks with plenty space.

If you're sending the calf to the lab make sure you have 2 tags and send off a bvd sample.

ferger1

Sam Kade wrote: »

I had one in early December about 2 months from calving, I sent the calf to the lab all tests were clear. Something the same as your situation cows in a few weeks with plenty space.

If you're sending the calf to the lab make sure you have 2 tags and send off a bvd sample.

Thanks for the advice. Ill ring the vet in the morning and see what he says.

Sam Kade

ferger1 wrote: »

Thanks for the advice. Ill ring the vet in the morning and see what he says.

I contacted my vet and before I knew it she had the calf booked in with all my details, luckily enough I had extra tags.

patsy_mccabe

All you need to test for Neospora is a bit of the placenta or afterbirth. I think once off abortions like this would be 50/50 whether you get it tested or not. If you get a second one, that's when the alarm bells start ringing.

Miname

I think your wasting your time sending her off to the lab. 90% chance she took a knock and the labs won't show that up. Keep your 120 or whatever it is and get rid of the cow and get a springer.

milkprofit

Miname wrote: »

I think your wasting your time sending her off to the lab. 90% chance she took a knock and the labs won't show that up. Keep your 120 or whatever it is and get rid of the cow and get a springer.

Did u check for twins

Sam Kade

Miname wrote: »

I think your wasting your time sending her off to the lab. 90% chance she took a knock and the labs won't show that up. Keep your 120 or whatever it is and get rid of the cow and get a springer.

120 for the lab? I wasn't charged anything, not yet anyway.

J.O. Farmer

Sam Kade wrote: »

120 for the lab? I wasn't charged anything, not yet anyway.

I think the dvo labs charge only a nominal fee if anything. Looks like an extra 0 added to that 120

Miname

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

I think the dvo labs charge only a nominal fee if anything. Looks like an extra 0 added to that 120

I'm fairly sure the last animal going through from here cost that. I've never heard dvo and nominal fee in the same sentence before.

RD10

Sorry to hear. Such a bummer, especially when she was so close to calving aswell. Is she an older cow? All sorts of Problems tend to start rearing their heads in older type cows.

J.O. Farmer

Miname wrote: »

I'm fairly sure the last animal going through from here cost that. I've never heard dvo and nominal fee in the same sentence before.

Maybe different in different counties. I think a neighbour only gave about a fiver for lambs a couple of years ago.

ferger1

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

All you need to test for Neospora is a bit of the placenta or afterbirth. I think once off abortions like this would be 50/50 whether you get it tested or not. If you get a second one, that's when the alarm bells start ringing.

This is the thing, I was there when she threw out the calf, and there was no bag around the calf, and I didn't see any afterbirth/placenta yet.

ferger1

milkprofit wrote: »

Did u check for twins

I actually didn't. Should have really. Would she not abort the second calf if she threw the first?

ferger1

RD10 wrote: »

Sorry to hear. Such a bummer, especially when she was so close to calving aswell. Is she an older cow? All sorts of Problems tend to start rearing their heads in older type cows.

A cow in her prime and 5 star at that too...and as quite as a lamb.
Unfortunately shell have to hit the high road

barnaman

Ferger thats a killer happened to me too recently. I sent calf to lab and came back with nothing. Was the same as yours a few weeks to go I reckon in my case maybe yours cow started to calf and calf somehow got distressed and died. By way DVO lab is free and saves knacker charge. I reckon lab is worth it as puts mind at ease that not something worse than bad luck.

She would throw both if was twins.

barnaman

ferger1 wrote: »

A cow in her prime and 5 star at that too...and as quite as a lamb.
Unfortunately shell have to hit the high road

Would give her a chance lad. Tricky to get a nice cow like that.

Kovu

ferger1 wrote: »

This is the thing, I was there when she threw out the calf, and there was no bag around the calf, and I didn't see any afterbirth/placenta yet.

If/When you're talking to the vet tomorrow and she hasn't passed it, get a shot for her to help her pass it.
Anything like a high temp in a cow can cause abortion so I'd be keeping a close eye on her. Has she looked ok since and eating alright?

Miname

barnaman wrote: »

Ferger thats a killer happened to me too recently. I sent calf to lab and came back with nothing. Was the same as yours a few weeks to go I reckon in my case maybe yours cow started to calf and calf somehow got distressed and died. By way DVO lab is free and saves knacker charge. I reckon lab is worth it as puts mind at ease that not something worse than bad luck.

She would throw both if was twins.

Where are these dvo labs ? Is backweston one of them?

keep going

at number 4 now and nothing showing up,

ferger1

barnaman wrote: »

Ferger thats a killer happened to me too recently. I sent calf to lab and came back with nothing. Was the same as yours a few weeks to go I reckon in my case maybe yours cow started to calf and calf somehow got distressed and died. By way DVO lab is free and saves knacker charge. I reckon lab is worth it as puts mind at ease that not something worse than bad luck.

She would throw both if was twins.

Thanks barnaman, didn't know the DVO lab is free, if that's the case I might aswell send him off. Nothing to lose.

ferger1

Kovu wrote: »

If/When you're talking to the vet tomorrow and she hasn't passed it, get a shot for her to help her pass it.
Anything like a high temp in a cow can cause abortion so I'd be keeping a close eye on her. Has she looked ok since and eating alright?

Shes bright eyed and bushy tailed since...not a bother with her grub either.
But I read somewhere that the afterbirth can be slow to pass after an abortion? But ill say it to the vet anyway.

barnaman

https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/foodsafetyconsumerissues/laboratoryservices/centralveterinarylaboratory/regionalveterinarylaboratories/

Ring ahead and do not forget to tag the fetus. Maybe your vet has to ring ahead for you anytime I sent the vet had rang them.

Kovu

ferger1 wrote: »

Shes bright eyed and bushy tailed since...not a bother with her grub either.
But I read somewhere that the afterbirth can be slow to pass after an abortion? But ill say it to the vet anyway.

Yep it definitely has an impact on retaining the afterbirth, the injection they're given is oxytocin which a cow produces herself naturally when the calf is sucking and stuff. The maternal hormone so to speak and it doesn't get produced to the same extent if the cow aborts/calf dies.
If it goes more than a day there's a danger of infection as the contractions will have ceased and won't be pushed out.

ferger1

Kovu wrote: »

Yep it definitely has an impact on retaining the afterbirth, the injection they're given is oxytocin which a cow produces herself naturally when the calf is sucking and stuff. The maternal hormone so to speak and it doesn't get produced to the same extent if the cow aborts/calf dies.
If it goes more than a day there's a danger of infection as the contractions will have ceased and won't be pushed out.

Good to know, shell be getting a shot of that tomorrow so;)

Miname

ferger1 wrote: »

Thanks barnaman, didn't know the DVO lab is free, if that's the case I might aswell send him off. Nothing to lose.

I'd check it out first, I've been charged every time they were sent to backweston.

barnaman

Knockalisheen is free. Did you drop them yourself?

Miname

barnaman wrote: »

Knockalisheen is free. Did you drop them yourself?

Yeh dropped every time. I be even found a short cut to it.

barnaman

https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/animalhealthwelfare/labservice/RVLChangesRVLInformationLeafletRevisedVAT20032014.pdf

You was robbed! That our you dress too well or not have the chat! Should be 0 for an abortion. Even if dead at birth say its an abortion

joeyboy12345

Miname wrote:

I think your wasting your time sending her off to the lab. 90% chance she took a knock and the labs won't show that up. Keep your 120 or whatever it is and get rid of the cow and get a springer.

Had something similar bout a month ago,a cow that should be caving end of march.found what can only be described as a calf that looked like a greyhound on the slats. Didnt get the calf tested but got the cow blooded for fear of salmonella ect.nothing showed up.brought cow to mart the following day only to be told that cow is locked up until another test clear in a months time for brucelloses.all the same i have peace of mind its not salmonella etc. And must have been a knock.

I did find it personally upsetting to find the co and calf aborted.my head was a bit wrecked for a few days after,its not nice to see regardless of the cause.id get her blooded for peace of mind!

Sam Kade

joeyboy12345 wrote: »

Had something similar bout a month ago,a cow that should be caving end of march.found what can only be described as a calf that looked like a greyhound on the slats. Didnt get the calf tested but got the cow blooded for fear of salmonella ect.nothing showed up.brought cow to mart the following day only to be told that cow is locked up until another test clear in a months time for brucelloses.all the same i have peace of mind its not salmonella etc. And must have been a knock.

I did find it personally upsetting to find the co and calf aborted.my head was a bit wrecked for a few days after,its not nice to see regardless of the cause.id get her blooded for peace of mind!

It's better to send the calf to the lab with placenta instead of blood testing the cow to find the problem, so my vet tells me.

case5130

Stupid question but ..
Is it ever to late to inject for lepto cows due in two months time .

Deepsouthwest

keep going wrote: »

at number 4 now and nothing showing up,

4 abortions? What's that about?

Sam Kade

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

4 abortions? What's that about?

Probably a large herd of cows.

Deepsouthwest

Sam Kade wrote: »

Probably a large herd of cows.

I've a fair idea how many cows this guy has, and 4 abortions is a lot in any herd of cows unless ur Tom Browne!

keep going

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

4 abortions? What's that about?

dont know,didnt do anything for the first but tested the middle two but the last one was over hols so didnt get it in.roughly 2 months to calving so could be anything but id have hunch its neospora.they came into milk so its lucky im milking anyway but obviously wont get the milk out of them,a point of interest one tested clear of dry cow tubes after a week even though she was only dry in less than 2 weeks.i dont know is there feck all in them

barnaman

You giving them iodine? Apparently this year deficency in that causing abortions. also thats tough luck hope you have had yur run of it.

Deepsouthwest

keep going wrote: »

dont know,didnt do anything for the first but tested the middle two but the last one was over hols so didnt get it in.roughly 2 months to calving so could be anything but id have hunch its neospora.they came into milk so its lucky im milking anyway but obviously wont get the milk out of them,a point of interest one tested clear of dry cow tubes after a week even though she was only dry in less than 2 weeks.i dont know is there feck all in them

Out of curiosity what tubes u use?
Back to the cows, did u get any info from the lab or did they just say not salmonella or brucellosis. Why u suspecting neospora? Are u feeding beet? Were all the cows due to calve at the same time? Or were they a mix of early and late

keep going

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

Out of curiosity what tubes u use?
Back to the cows, did u get any info from the lab or did they just say not salmonella or brucellosis. Why u suspecting neospora? Are u feeding beet? Were all the cows due to calve at the same time? Or were they a mix of early and late

kaefamast same ingredient as cep but only covers 45 days.all fr calves so would havebeen born feb march.first one was a month ago.no beet.why neospora-just a hunch but there is a dog around.no info back from lab despite 2 phone calls

Sam Kade

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

I've a fair idea how many cows this guy has, and 4 abortions is a lot in any herd of cows unless ur Tom Browne!

Well if you have 1 cow aborting in a herd of 33 cows that's 3% and if 4 cows abort in a herd of 200 that's 2%.

jaymla627

keep going wrote: »

kaefamast same ingredient as cep but only covers 45 days.all fr calves so would havebeen born feb march.first one was a month ago.no beet.why neospora-just a hunch but there is a dog around.no info back from lab despite 2 phone calls

If you blood cows after aborting and its neospora it shows up 90% of the time post mortoium on calves is hit and miss regards detecting it......
Have had 10 positive neospora cases here the past three years and it usually flares up at drying off, used to restrict silage/feed straw at drying off but now try to put the cows under as little stress as possible and leave them access to ad-lib silage and touchwood have had no cases this year and double the cows in the herd....

Deepsouthwest

keep going wrote: »

kaefamast same ingredient as cep but only covers 45 days.all fr calves so would havebeen born feb march.first one was a month ago.no beet.why neospora-just a hunch but there is a dog around.no info back from lab despite 2 phone calls

Ask any vet or Don Crowley and u'll be told that there's a big difference between cepravin and kefamast, and it's reflected in the price as well.
A bit late for salmonella, but u'd be slow to rule it out. Reason I asked about beet, is its a fecker of a feed for drawing foxes and plenty other undesirables to a farm yard. I'd keep on the lab, especially when u have two sent in, something should show up.

Lizard_Moon

OP- Under the Brucellosis regulations your cow needs to be blood tested by your vet for Brucellosis. The Dept pays for the call out. Whilst she is there she can take another sample and send to a lab for Salmonella, Neospora, Lepto testing. That cow will then be blood tested again by either the Dept Vet or your own vet.

Always check for a twin, or a triplet etc!

Sam Kade

Lizard_Moon wrote: »

OP- Under the Brucellosis regulations your cow needs to be blood tested by your vet for Brucellosis. The Dept pays for the call out. Whilst she is there she can take another sample and send to a lab for Salmonella, Neospora, Lepto testing. That cow will then be blood tested again by either the Dept Vet or your own vet.

Always check for a twin, or a triplet etc!

it is better to pm the foetus.

keep going

Lizard_Moon wrote: »

OP- Under the Brucellosis regulations your cow needs to be blood tested by your vet for Brucellosis. The Dept pays for the call out. Whilst she is there she can take another sample and send to a lab for Salmonella, Neospora, Lepto testing. That cow will then be blood tested again by either the Dept Vet or your own vet.

Always check for a twin, or a triplet etc!

another this morning ,dropped it up,enquired about other and they said they are conducting a "histoliogy"report on what ever showed up.blooding in the am

Lizard_Moon

Sam Kade wrote: »

it is better to pm the foetus.

Always send off the foetus, and placenta, to the lab and hopefully something will show up. The more information we can get the better the chance to find a cause, although many abortions have no diagnosed cause.

Awaiting histology on a few calves for farmers at the moment also but bloods came back neagative.

The blood for brucellosis is just something you have to get done so your vet may as well get salmonella, lepto and neospora tested also.