EV cars. Popular in Europe?

bear1

When I was back in Ireland in October I noticed a fair few leafs and charging points scattered around the country which would suggest to me that owning an ev car in Ireland makes good sense. Taking the grant, free on street charging(?) and relatively short distances with minimal motor tax makes it a good contender for a daily runabout.
However on the continent in rarely see them, in fact I dont think I've seen any leafs or any on street charging areas including petrol stations.
Could this be due to the driving distances which makes using the leaf for eg, unviable? Lack of government grants to help ease the burden of buying one etc.
It would seem to me that the UK and Ireland are quite advanced in this respect.

TheRealMadmix

recently I saw a lot of older people driving leafs, they usually drive only around the town, few miles a day so leaf is probably the best car on the market for them... they dont have to worry about oil change, clutch and maintenance like with ICE cars. So yea, owning EV makes sense for around the town. Currently there is a big push for EVs, battery/charging technology is evolving every day, however we have to wait few more years to see normally priced cars with 400km+ range. I am waiting to see Tesla model 3 this year.

Admldj

Was working in stockholm during the summer and seen a lot of tesla model s in the area i was living in and around the city

bear1

I figured the nordics would probably use them they also have great systems to keep the car warm in the winter when you are at work or home.

Admldj

To be fair there was an awful lot of big gas guzzling American muscle cars aswell, on the street i was living on there were 2 dodge rams!

bear1

From my observations though I will still say that in a few European capitals the electric car doesn't seem to have caught on a lot.

stesaurus

An interesting blog about sales here showing what models are popular and market penetration in different countries
http://ev-sales.blogspot.ie/2015/12/2015-in-review.html?m=1

Ireland is actually quite poor for take up, still less than 1500 total registrations. It's such a pity really as an EV would actually suit a lot of people.
The public perception is just so poor and most are quite ignorant towards them. Buying new probably never makes sense financially but most people wouldn't even consider an EV when researching their next car even though it could end up being the best choice.

Fred Swanson

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stesaurus

Fred Swanson wrote: »

A lot of the EE countries have plenty very cheap petrol and gas, EVs would be of no interest to anyone there. There are zero tax breaks for owning one as the tax is still based on power output. People would be insane to even bother.

Insane? Hardly but it shows the perception you have. Even with cheap petrol/diesel there's still savings to be made with an EV. It's up to people to do their own sums and figure out what would work for them. The problem is most people don't even want to consider the option.

Fred Swanson

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stesaurus

Fred Swanson wrote: »

What is the average power output of an EV? I am sure they compare the same as their petrol equivalents.

If the government of an EE country chooses not to give any grant/tax break to the owner of an EV, there is zero incentive to bother. If I was to choose an EV over the equivalent petrol model, I would pay the same tax, insurance have no public charging points. Generally distances between centres is much larger and would not suit the typical ranges of EVs. They might suit someone living in the centre of a city and travels little but then efficient public transport again negates any benefits. The only EVs I see in EE are trams and trolleybuses.

If there was an EV with a decent range I might reconsider.

What's your general daily drive?

xband

It's very hard to generalise about Europe.
Different countries are pushing this more than others.

Irish people actually drive way more than most of Europe too. The number of km driven per head here is much, much higher than many of our neighbours and even surpasses the US!

Perhaps one thing to consider is that EVs actually make sense in small / medium sized cities with low density and limited public transit options.

In a lot of bigger or denser cities, metros tend to be more of a viable option and parking is a nightmare.

stesaurus

xband wrote: »

It's very hard to generalise about Europe.
Different countries are pushing this more than others.

Irish people actually drive way more than most of Europe too. The number of km driven per head here is much, much higher than many of our neighbours and even surpasses the US!

Perhaps one thing to consider is that EVs actually make sense in small / medium sized cities with low density and limited public transit options.

In a lot of bigger or denser cities, metros tend to be more of a viable option and parking is a nightmare.

My mileage has actually increased since moving to an EV. I enjoy driving it more and I don't need to worry about fuel prices.
It's a different mindset. Your petrol station is at home or potentially at work. So if you can get to where you need within the range then you're set. And pretty much this is 90% of people. The closer you are to this limit the better sense it makes financially.

xband

Yeah, but if you live in a major continental city or London, driving isn't something very pleasurable or often isn't much of a viable option. Those cities run on their metros and public transportation.

Dublin & Cork are actually ideally suited to EV as they're kind of low density with workplaces scattered between city centre and outer commercial / tech campuses.

They're small but big enough to be relatively self contained without having to drive long distances for certain services.

The other three cities probably even more suitable if you never need to go to Dublin etc but when you get into people living in towns where they've long commutes EV stops making sense until batteries improve. Plug in hybrid vehicles make a lot of sense tho!

We've urban but not dense urban with apartments and denser business districts.

Housing is too low density to make metro stops very useful and it's quite wet making walking and cycling less attractive (Cork, Galway and Limerick more so than Dublin)

EV actually makes lot of sense here in the medium term.

Fred Swanson

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cros13

I do 50,000km plus a year in my EV.... hardly just pootling around town.
Done Dublin to Berlin and back without issue.

It's very rare that I meet someone who isn't suitable. You need a commute of 150km+ before range is an issue.
From April I'll be doing a 200km round trip commute.

xband

I've an EV driving relative and the biggest issue they have is on long journies they cannot guarantee availaiblity of charge points due to people just parking at them or a queue of users.

It took them over 6 hours to get to Cork from Dublin as a result of this as they couldn't get a charge at two locations on the M8 due to queuing / people just not bothered moving after charged.

What might be a 15 min coffee break turns into a 2 hour meal and waiting around for chargers.

You either need reliable access to chargers, or much better battery life.

If you go into the countryside and not just between cities, it becomes even more problematic as you cannot be sure of charge points being there at all.

I'd suggest both are needed.

Alun

I was in Oslo for a weekend recently and the place was crawling with them, mainly Leaf's, but a good number of Tesla's and the odd i3 or Golf. All EV's there have registration numbers beginning with EL, so it makes spotting the not immediately obvious ones like Golf's a bit easier.

One thing I did notice though was that I didn't see a single on-street charger in the whole place. Maybe they have them in the parking garages but as I was on foot I had no call to go into one.

xband

Scandinavia is also largely quite low density cities and is far more comparable to here than your typical Spanish, Italian, French or even Germany city which is much more apartment-focused and quite public transport friendly.

For Ireland, Britain, Nordic countries, North America, Australia, NZ etc because of a history of suburban houses with a lot of space, if we're going to cut CO2 output, EVs are pretty much going to be the main part of the solution.

Public transport can't serve every house.

Rafal

Alun wrote: »

I was in Oslo for a weekend recently and the place was crawling with them, mainly Leaf's, but a good number of Tesla's and the odd i3 or Golf. All EV's there have registration numbers beginning with EL, so it makes spotting the not immediately obvious ones like Golf's a bit easier.

One thing I did notice though was that I didn't see a single on-street charger in the whole place. Maybe they have them in the parking garages but as I was on foot I had no call to go into one.

I visit Oslo quite often, and it always amazes me how much you hear that futuristic "pedestrian warning whine" of EVs there. Leaf taxis are very popular, and a good few Teslas too.

You can charge in garages, have a look here at a recently opened one with 85 EV spaces. The whole garage is for EVs only: https://speakev.com/threads/centre-of-oslo-parking-garage-just-for-evs.11852/

cros13

Alun wrote: »

One thing I did notice though was that I didn't see a single on-street charger in the whole place.

They often don't need them. Many homes and businesses have prewiring under the public footpath to the kerbside for engine block heaters.
It was pretty clear early on that money was better spent on home chargepoints and rapid chargers rather than level 2 street charging.

I've said it time and time again, until there is a major change in Diesel emissions regulations then the majority of people in Ireland will not buy EV, they think diesel is cheap now at 1.20 per litre and are more than willing to pay for it as far as I can see.

When manufacturers themselves stop producing diesels then Diesel will continue to remain the No.1 choice for Irish buyers.

Range will improve in 2018 and hopefully the 60 Kwh in Leaf II will be affordable, 300-350 Kms range would be nice.

Sure no one can deny that 110-130 Kms range is a bit on the low side but all the same, I've managed to drive almost 28,000 Kms in the last year, not small mileage. I could do a lot more.

We do take the diesel for the really long trips and while we have and need the 2nd car it makes perfect sense to use it.

The 30 Kwh is a decent improvement and allows faster charging meaning more range for the same time fast charging !

Once the 60 Kwh comes out I don't think many need more range than this and it will most likely have the ability to charge at over 100 Kw,

There really needs to be a much greater range of electric vehicles rather than just small hatch cars, a few estates and SUV's would be nice. An electric X-trail and Qashqai would be nice and other manufacturer models.

Fred Swanson

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Fred Swanson

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Well my average per 100 kms is 18 Kwh, so based on this I would cost me @ 8.4 C/Kwh 1 Euro 51 cent to travel 100 kms.

The charger is about 90% efficient so add 10% and it will cost around €1.66

The cost of driving 20,000 Kms Based on my rather high consumption of 18 Kwh/100 kms would cost 300 Euro's including charger inefficiency.

As I said I do drive hard enough and use all that torque when I can.

Some average 15 Kwh/100 Kms maybe driving on back roads and in slower traffic or by accelerating slower or all combined, I don't care once I have the range I drive it.

I'm going to renegotiate the electricity cost soon.

xband

The main thing that will delay EV uptake globally now is very low oil prices and an economic slump (Ireland's growth is exceptional, much of Europe is stagnant).

There's a government tendency to want to stimulate the economy and imposing higher fuel taxes isn't really something they'll be likely to do.

Oil is currently $36 / barrel. Which is back to 2003 prices. It was $133.90 / barrel in 2008 and 103.59 last year.

That's one hell of a shift in price.

cros13

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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My BMW gets a little better than my Leaf.

I've got about 300kg less weight and a partially synchronous motor rather than the induction motor the Leaf uses so I have a few percent better motor efficiency.

So I get a little more range out of a battery with 8% less capacity. I average a touch over 15.5kWh/100km but I drive like a lunatic, flooring it from every light.

I pay 7.4c/kWh on the night rate and including charging losses come out around €1.38/100km. Funnily enough it costs me a few cents more to charge slower at 16A rather than 32A because the chargers in the car work more efficient at 32A.

DrPhilG

My friend lives in Norway and he says there are Teslas all over the place.

I was in Barcelona recently and only saw one Leaf, at a charger in the middle of the city. Folk I spoke to there said there were very few EVs around.

xband

DrPhilG wrote: »

My friend lives in Norway and he says there are Teslas all over the place.

I was in Barcelona recently and only saw one Leaf, at a charger in the middle of the city. Folk I spoke to there said there were very few EVs around.

It's a disposable income thing too though.
Higher the incomes, the more likely people will be to adopt things like Teslas.

The irony being that Norway's economy's built on oil.

Sure I could get 15 Kwh in the leaf even flooring it from lights but my long commute and high average speeds is what consumes more including the foul weather this winter. But the I3 does have a lot more power.

The Leaf does not use an induction motor but an AC permanent-magnet synchronous electric motor, if I remember correctly it's a type of induction motor but not an induction motor but quiet efficient.

Either way, electricity is so cheap so who cares about efficiency ?

xband

Actually, that's also a point in hot climates like Spain, the air conditioning load really impact EV life.

Making EV even more compatible with Ireland, the UK, Northern France etc where climates are far less extreme.

Deleted User wrote: »

Either way, electricity is so cheap so who cares about efficiency ?

Still handy for keeping your battery from running down to quickly.

xband

xband wrote: »

Still handy for keeping your battery from running down to quickly.

That's true but when you've got more battery capacity it doesn't matter. The difference in range between the i3 and leaf is negligible. But being more efficient is always good.