Still no Nationwide DAB Radio

Andy From Sligo

Does anyone know why there is still no DAB Radio available nationwide here in Ireland? - there must be a plethora of DAB radios sold in the shops (well there is, or DAB/FM radios these days) and DAB radio's must be fitted to a load of new cars now as standard - so why can we not have a proper DAB service oce and all in Ireland .. everywhere I mean from the smallest rural towns and villages as well as big towns. I have a DAB/FM Radio in the bathroom and the kitchen and a DAB clock radio, no DAB signal whatsoever not even a weak one where I live, Have to rely on FM and most stations will have hiss and interference even with the Aerial fully extended and have to switch to mono setting- even what is supposed to be our local radio station (ocean fm) is really bad on FM even when I have the aerial extended and set to mono, so bad I dont bother listening to it and turn to one of the stronger nationwide radio stations.

bbability

No plans to extend coverage. They claim over 50% of the population is covered. Its a real shame. I think it would open up the radio market would benefit from full coverage

Trick of the Tail

It's largely because the BAI have their thumbs in their ar$e about it. They don't want to introduce dab, because their members - i.e. the existing FM stations, don't want it. Read: don't want more competition.

The BAI is behaving more like an association than a regulator in this. They are hung up on the idea that dab is a replacement for FM, which they rightly believe there's no need for.

Rather than that, dab should be seen as an incremental medium in which smaller business model, more niche content stations can exist.

This would increase listener choice and plurality, which are both things the BAI is legally bound to do, but still it ignores this.

I maintain that if independent dab was licensed in the near future, it would not adversely affect the existing FM stations unduly, as it would attract listeners who are currently getting their desired niche content elsewhere, and advertisers or sponsors who currently do not have targeted media to use.

Andy From Sligo

But competition already exists for FM radio stations already doesnt it in the form of Internet radio and the Towns in Ireland that already can receive DAB Radio signals (theres a point, the Towns in the republic of Ireland that already get DAB radio, do they get the full DAB stations that the UK get of is it just Irish DAB stations do they get?)

If Internet radios werent so expensive in the 100's of euros as opposed to DAB radios, it wouldnt be too much of an issue - I think I paid just 20euro for my DAB/FM radio from tescos .

flutered

i believe that england has plenty of black spots also, sorry if i am wrong, the bigge coming down the tracks is space for the mobile platforms

StreetLight

flutered wrote: »

i believe that england has plenty of black spots also, sorry if i am wrong, the bigge coming down the tracks is space for the mobile platforms

DAB uses VHF Band 3. The current 4G mobiles are in the upper UHF band, so I think DAB would be reasonably safe for the long-term.

Mr Sea Wolf

If you can't get decent fm in your area, what makes you think dab would be any better ? UK stations will never be carried on irish dab btw,

Antenna

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

. I have a DAB/FM Radio in the bathroom and the kitchen and a DAB clock radio, no DAB signal whatsoever not even a weak one where I live, Have to rely on FM and most stations will have hiss and interference even with the Aerial fully extended and have to switch to mono setting- even what is supposed to be our local radio station (ocean fm) is really bad on FM even when I have the aerial extended and set to mono, so bad I dont bother listening to it and turn to one of the stronger nationwide radio stations.

There have been complaints of some DAB radios having poor/very poor reception on FM, how is FM reception on other (non-DAB) radios in your location?

Infoanon

Mr Sea Wolf wrote: »

If you can't get decent fm in your area, what makes you think dab would be any better ? UK stations will never be carried on irish dab btw,

Talksport has been carried on trial tests

Andy From Sligo

Mr Sea Wolf wrote: »

If you can't get decent fm in your area, what makes you think dab would be any better ? UK stations will never be carried on irish dab btw,

is that what would happen then ? - i thought with Digital you either have the signal or not and it was stronger signal no?

Andy From Sligo

Antenna wrote: »

..... how is FM reception on other (non-DAB) radios in your location?

alright not too bad depending where they are placed in the room. The radio in the bathroom is just where i want it on a shelf but typically for some reason its bad spot there, better reception on the window sill but then it would get splashed by the shower.

Andy From Sligo

hired a car in the UK recently and it was fitted with a DAB radio as standard and it was the biz. So clear and noo hiss or crackles. we drove along the motorway and it changed to new radio stations automatically to the area you were in (I suppose this could have been changed in the settings setup) but this is the future, it makes FM radio so antiquated

runnerholic

What is the DAB coverage in Dublin like?

Andy From Sligo

so in Ireland we are at Saorview now, UHF TV ditched because saorview has better sound and pictures, fibre optic broadband because offer more speed , mobile 4G , but only 50% coverage and sounds like the rest of the country ditched leaving an old fashioned bad quality limited stations on the FM radio band ... just dont make sense. everything should be Digital now in terms of the way entertainment because it is after all available and better than FM - its not as though it hasnt been invented, or has been invented but it was deemed a failure or anything so I am a bit confused why it hasnt been fully enabled to everywhere in Ireland yet and not progressed the way the other things have been brought up to date.

Expunge

The Big 3 - RTE, Communicorp and UTV like it just as it is.

They don't want to invest and they certainly don't want the likes of Global or Bauer possibly having a cheap entry point into the Irish market where they may be able to do a bit of damage.

Yes. FM - limited and expensive is just fine for the likes of them.

bbability

runnerholic wrote: »

What is the DAB coverage in Dublin like?

Excellent from Dublin as far as Drigheda. Ibhad the lend of a car with DAB radio about two years ago and drove the M1 and back with full coverage of RTE Gold

Andy From Sligo

Would the likes of Wexford be able to pick up UK DAB radio from Wales or does DAB not travel that far? - just wondering like

former total

Expunge wrote: »

The Big 3 - RTE, Communicorp and UTV like it just as it is.

They don't want to invest and they certainly don't want the likes of Global or Bauer possibly having a cheap entry point into the Irish market where they may be able to do a bit of damage.

Yes. FM - limited and expensive is just fine for the likes of them.

It's far more likely that it's just not commercially viable. Small advertising market, low population density, low uptake of the hardware and its main competition (ie FM) is firmly established and going nowhere.

Just one of those things I'm afraid.

SimonMaher

former total wrote: »

It's far more likely that it's just not commercially viable. Small advertising market, low population density, low uptake of the hardware and its main competition (ie FM) is firmly established and going nowhere.

Just one of those things I'm afraid.

See, this debate rolls around here about twice a year and we get the old "it's just not commercially viable" argument. I shouldn't bite again, but I will! This isn't aimed at you at all former-total, it's aimed at the debate

How on earth do we know whether it's commercially viable or not without actually doing it? Surely the only way to judge it is to advertise for MUX operators for specific areas that they express interest in, licence them and then see how they get on with attracting customers to their DAB MUX? If they succeed then great, we get more diversity and the MUX gets a decent business. If they don't succeed then the MUX operator won't make money, the project will cease and we will know better.

In the absence of actually trying it though (and technical test MUXes don't count obviously, given their finite duration), I don't believe that anyone can say with any level of authority that it's not viable.

Simon

Mr Sea Wolf

SimonMaher wrote: »

How on earth do we know whether it's commercially viable

Sunshine 106.8, 4fm, TXFM

When I lived in Collooney in Sligo I had full coverage of UK digital radio from Brougher Mountain with a roof digital aerial. Collooney was in a fortuitous reception area though as we always had the UK telly channels and FM radio stations there!

SimonMaher

Mr Sea Wolf wrote: »

Sunshine 106.8, 4fm, TXFM

So the financial struggles of individual radio stations (all of whom are still on air and still commercially trading might I add!) prove the lack of commercial viability of DAB Radio in Ireland?

Please make the connection for me Sea-Wolf.

Simon

micosoft

SimonMaher wrote: »

See, this debate rolls around here about twice a year and we get the old "it's just not commercially viable" argument. I shouldn't bite again, but I will! This isn't aimed at you at all former-total, it's aimed at the debate

So we should ignore reality because commercially viable is apparently old hat?

SimonMaher wrote: »

How on earth do we know whether it's commercially viable or not without actually doing it? Surely the only way to judge it is to advertise for MUX operators for specific areas that they express interest in, licence them and then see how they get on with attracting customers to their DAB MUX? If they succeed then great, we get more diversity and the MUX gets a decent business. If they don't succeed then the MUX operator won't make money, the project will cease and we will know better.

That's not really the way business works. People have this weird notion that they want to make a return on investment with as little risk as possible. I don't see you offering your personal cash to see whether or not a technology that provides a tiny incremental advantage will succeed.

SimonMaher wrote: »

In the absence of actually trying it though (and technical test MUXes don't count obviously, given their finite duration), I don't believe that anyone can say with any level of authority that it's not viable.
Simon

Yes. Yes they can. They can look at the UK - a hyperdense country where you have 65 million people packed into a small country the radio stations are not making a return. In fact the only justification for DAB is to free up radio spectrum for other activities. Given that even that is not happening in the UK the business case has all but evaporated.
Reading between the lines and comments in this article is interesting:
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2009/jan/29/digital-radio-lord-carter-report

In low density countries such as Ireland we would be better to look at the US which went to Satellite Radio IF that's what we want.

All is moot anyway. Radio is primarily a Car market. Cars are increasingly coming with built in 3/4G (Most BMW's now). In 10-15 years (well within the timeline of DAB) most cars will have this built in for diagnostics, Media updates etc. We will skip DAB and go straight to Internet Radio.... No need to build out an expensive white elephant DAB transmitter network.

xband

The biggest issue is that local radio owns its own transmission facilities and they're not likely to want to move to a situation where they have to rent capacity from 2RN (RTE Transmission Networks) to serve their own markets.

It also really hasn't had much uptake in many markets.

I usually end up using streaming on 3G/4G in the car now and it's pretty satisfactory.

DAB could be a lot better but it's pretty horrible old early digital tech. Had it been somehow integrated with streaming services it might be interesting.

Also while there are a lot of DAB radios out there they're still largely either bulky radios or they're not wonderful quality.

A lot of radio listening is either on phones or in cars and that market isn't really addressed by most DAB.

The service in the uk is being driven largely by BBC having very deep pockets and being committed to driving DAB come hell or high water. The market in Ireland has to deal with commercial reality.

SimonMaher

I don't want the impression that I didn't want to have the debate again Micosoft - obviously by getting into the issue again means I'm happy that it's being debated again!

Thank you for the lesson is business practice, thankfully I understand the world of risk and reward Surely though, if someone is willing to front up the cash/take the risk on running a DAB MUX then it should be open for them to take on that risk? As of now, nobody is given the opportunity to take that risk. That is counter-intuitive to the way that business works isn't it? I can't figure out why people are so anxious to protect other people from spending their own money. I get the strong feeling that it's not the MUX operators money they are seeking to protect.

I would have thought the UK was a bad example to pick for arguing that we shouldn't have DAB. New DAB Muxes are being launched nationally in the UK in 2016 along with the proposed expansion of the low-cost low-power DAB model currently being trialled. Funnily enough, Radio groups with far more radio experience and far more money than you or I are still investing in DAB Services in the UK despite both the risk and the cost. Why would that be?

"Radio is primarily a car market" - Well, no it isn't (in-home listening is the primary market) but anyway, I agree that the developments in 4G/5G etc will have a significant effect in years to come but online will always be a complimentary distribution means to broadcast.

Look, every distribution platform has its benefits and its issues. FM is great and will continue to be great well into the future. 3G/4G/5G etc will be great for mobile use but limited by capacity and DAB can be a great complimentary medium too giving relatively low cost distribution and reception for a decent number of services. I still see no argument as to why it shouldn't be given an opportunity to succeed or fail on its own merits.

Finally, it's important too for us to remember that average Joe/Josephine doesn't give a toss about how Radio is delivered to him/her. All they care about is the quality of the content and that is exactly how it should be.

Simon

end of the road

Mr Sea Wolf wrote: »

Sunshine 106.8, 4fm, TXFM

proves nothing in relation to dab i'm afraid

micosoft wrote: »

So we should ignore reality because commercially viable is apparently old hat?

what "reality" . considering the BAI use "not financially/commercially viable" as an excuse to stifle real competition, forgive me if i don't take it to seriously in relation to this debate.

micosoft wrote: »

That's not really the way business works. People have this weird notion that they want to make a return on investment with as little risk as possible. I don't see you offering your personal cash to see whether or not a technology that provides a tiny incremental advantage will succeed.

how can he when the BAI won't licence the mux operators. a comreg licenced test mux only lasts for so long.

micosoft wrote: »

Yes. Yes they can. They can look at the UK - a hyperdense country where you have 65 million people packed into a small country the radio stations are not making a return.

because of the over inflated costs that are being charged. because of the licencing regime. because they are using normal dab (mp2) over dab+ (mp4) . and many other reasons. its not a reason for us not to try it, we can look at the mistakes and see how we can improve.

micosoft wrote: »

In fact the only justification for DAB is to free up radio spectrum for other activities.

thats the uk governments justification yes. doesn't mean there is no justification. otherwise no country would be licencing any type of dab digital radio

micosoft wrote: »

Given that even that is not happening in the UK the business case has all but evaporated.

the business case for having dab digital radio to free up fm for other uses has indeed evaporated. which is good. the business case to have dab digital radio as another extension with reasonable rates for carrige and a niche content only stance rather then a some niche but carying what mostly whats on fm all ready stance which people don't want, and is the reason people aren't moving to dab hasn't.

micosoft wrote: »

In low density countries such as Ireland we would be better to look at the US which went to Satellite Radio IF that's what we want.

considering its another form of digital radio, if it should be looked at, then no reason dab+ shouldn't be also.

micosoft wrote: »

All is moot anyway. Radio is primarily a Car market. Cars are increasingly coming with built in 3/4G (Most BMW's now). In 10-15 years (well within the timeline of DAB) most cars will have this built in for diagnostics, Media updates etc. We will skip DAB and go straight to Internet Radio.... No need to build out an expensive white elephant DAB transmitter network.

really? all is not mute at all. have you any evidence that it would be a white elephant? also, how do you know that
1. radio is mostly a car market.
2. we will go straight to internet radio.


sounds to me like your plucking things out of thin air that have no basis in reality until we at least implement a framework for digital radio. looking at the uk and its failure means nothing, considering it isn't the only country that has licenced dab digital radio.

former total

SimonMaher wrote: »

See, this debate rolls around here about twice a year and we get the old "it's just not commercially viable" argument. I shouldn't bite again, but I will! This isn't aimed at you at all former-total, it's aimed at the debate

How on earth do we know whether it's commercially viable or not without actually doing it? Surely the only way to judge it is to advertise for MUX operators for specific areas that they express interest in, licence them and then see how they get on with attracting customers to their DAB MUX? If they succeed then great, we get more diversity and the MUX gets a decent business. If they don't succeed then the MUX operator won't make money, the project will cease and we will know better.

In the absence of actually trying it though (and technical test MUXes don't count obviously, given their finite duration), I don't believe that anyone can say with any level of authority that it's not viable.

Simon

Because if it was commercially viable, someone would try it. It's that simple.

People who know far more than me about it will have done the sums, rattled a few pie charts together and come to one of two conclusions:
1) it's viable, let's go for it
2) it's not viable, forget it

Option 3 is that some media company has figured out there is an untapped pot of gold out there with no real competitors, but decided not to bother cashing in. Seems unlikely.

xband

My own experience is that as 4G has arrived, at reasonable price, I just listen to steams or cached from Spotify and Apple Music and mostly for speech I listen to podcasts now.

I occasionally flick past a bit of current affairs but often not live.

Increasingly I read my news online from both paid and free services.

I don think I'm likely to be that unusual. This is a massively changing market and linear, broadcast media is only going to be able to succeed if can continue to grab audiences long term.

SimonMaher

former total wrote: »

Because if it was commercially viable, someone would try it. It's that simple.

See Former Total, this is the point I'm trying to make. People have looked into it and have pushed the process as far as it can go but there is no MUX licence on offer from the BAI. Not there, doesn't exist, not an option.

A permanent DAB Mux operators licence has not been advertised so nobody can "try it". If DAB Mux licences are offered and nobody takes them up then fair enough or if they are taken up but they can't get customers then that's fair enough too but until that option is offered then the easy cop out of it not being financially viable is just that, a cop out.

Xband raises a far more fundamental point which is that people are finding their "radio" needs elsewhere other than broadcast. We can provide our indigenous broadcast industry with the tools and platforms to grab those audiences or we can regulate like it's 1992 and watch younger audiences drift away from Irish radio totally. That topic is another days work


Simon

Andy From Sligo

4G - need some kind of mobile plan for streaming, and plus when you are out of many towns all you can get is 3g or 2g so I am not quite sure how 4G streaming would work on a car radio if you can get 4G in main towns and cities ... but signal drops off to 2G or GPRS as you drive out into the countryside - Internet radio, the radio themselves are expensive and will continue to be , if people want to buy a radio they are more than likely going to invest in readily available plethora of DAB/DAB+ radios that are out there on the market. There is much more choice in DAB radios than Internet radios .... now if only could get a good DAB signal everywhere (or 98%) of Ireland .

Can we not rely on RTE to supply this nationwide of DAB signal? - why should we have to have other commercial investors taking it up? - especially if most of the DAB programmes to be broadcast will be RTE radio channels? and then RTE can just use the existing infrastructure to deliver DAB nationwide.

xband

Depends on your mobile network and signals are improving as 800MHz 4G and 90MHz 3G roll out. 2100MHz 3G always struggled with indoor and rural and 1800MHz isn't optimal for non urban 4G
I drove Cork Dublin with my iPhone connected to the car's systems and I had full control of Apple Music and podcasts from the steering wheel and that's just a bog standard Hyundai.

I'd coverage fast enough to stream most of the way and access to a huge cache of audio for the few mins that I didn't.

There's a limited choice of Internet radio hardware, but every smartphone and tablet is an Internet radio and offer vastly superior interfaces to any physical radio.

Apple devices typically connect to speakers by just plonking them onto a cradle with a lightening connector and every device connects with Bluetooth without any issues at all these days.

So to say there's a shortage of Internet radios is like saying there's a shortage of word processors. Radio is just an app. You don't need dedicated hardware you just need good speakers!

Hundreds of millions of Euro are being invested in mobile networks because there's a huge maeket. That's not the case with DAB

end of the road

former total wrote: »

Because if it was commercially viable, someone would try it. It's that simple.

its not that simple at all. there is no framework to allow such licences in the first place. any of the test licences so far have been issued by comreg and they only last a certain duration.

former total wrote: »

People who know far more than me about it will have done the sums, rattled a few pie charts together and come to one of two conclusions:
1) it's viable, let's go for it
2) it's not viable, forget it

who would they be? the BAI? i'd hardly trust their judgement in fairness.

its very simple. issue the licences. lets see if there is an interest. if not, so be it. but you can't not issue a framework to allow something and then claim there is no interest when there is no framework to even allow a situation where interest can be gauged.

xband

The ideal solution would actually be a muticasting system built into the mobile nets. You could then basically broadcast radio to Apps without choking bandwidth unnecessarily.

Andy From Sligo

all very well saying mobile phones could be used as Internet radios - however I and I should imagine a lot of people would like to conserve their mobile phone battery power for making and taking telephone calls primarily .

If DAB took off and the (DAB stations were sufficient for your needs) then an awful lot of new cars for ages now have been supplied with DAB/FM radios in the dash (not Internet radios) thus saving your phone battery, and if we are talking home DAB you can run that off portable by batteries or plug it in ... thus saving your mobile phone battery.

Why not (if available) use all means of getting your radio station fix? - FM/DAB/4G/Internet streaming you dont have to be limited if all means of technology in use it can all be used seamlessly and to be quite honest we are a progressed 1st world country, make everything available if technically possible ... and it is technically possible to me it sounds like only seems like its not possible because of licences wont be awarded/allowed or its been shot dead before its even been rolled across the whole land and trialled. - I mean to be quite honest if DAB was widely available why would anyone want to use low quality FM radio signals any more if they have a DAB radio? - and if the DAB signals carried all the existing FM radio stations anyway along with maybe a few more choice how is that going to hurt the existing FM radio stations? - If I like listening to RTE Radio one or 2FM and I have a DAB Radio I am still going to tune into/listen to RTE Radio One or 2FM but in glorious digital signal in stereo but without the hiss and crackles so they are not going to loose listeners by allowing DAB nationwide.

Mr Sea Wolf

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

all very well saying mobile phones could be used as Internet radios - however I and I should imagine a lot of people would like to conserve their mobile phone battery power for making and taking telephone calls primarily .

If DAB took off and the (DAB stations were sufficient for your needs) then an awful lot of new cars for ages now have been supplied with DAB/FM radios in the dash (not Internet radios) thus saving your phone battery, and if we are talking home DAB you can run that off portable by batteries or plug it in ... thus saving your mobile phone battery.

Why not (if available) use all means of getting your radio station fix? - FM/DAB/4G/Internet streaming you dont have to be limited if all means of technology in use it can all be used seamlessly and to be quite honest we are a progressed 1st world country, make everything available if technically possible ... and it is technically possible to me it sounds like only seems like its not possible because of licences wont be awarded/allowed or its been shot dead before its even been rolled across the whole land and trialled. - I mean to be quite honest if DAB was widely available why would anyone want to use low quality FM radio signals any more if they have a DAB radio? - and if the DAB signals carried all the existing FM radio stations anyway along with maybe a few more choice how is that going to hurt the existing FM radio stations? - If I like listening to RTE Radio one or 2FM and I have a DAB Radio I am still going to tune into/listen to RTE Radio One or 2FM but in glorious digital signal in stereo but without the hiss and crackles so they are not going to loose listeners by allowing DAB nationwide.

FFS you'd swear FM was as bad as longwave the way you are going on. I never experience any "hiss and Crackle" on FM and I'm sure the vast majority of other irish radio listener's don't either.

Trick of the Tail

Whether or not FM is good enough quality it totally irrelevant. FM is a perfectly good medium, but the notion that DAB could replace it needs to be completely eliminated from the discussion.

Here's the thing: When Total Broadcast were running their test dab in the south-east, they were approached by several organisations looking to pay for carriage, but since the rules of trial licences are strict, they had to be declined.

If I decide I want to open a newspaper shop, I open a newspaper shop. If my predictions that it will be commercially successful are correct, happy days.

If however I'm wrong and no-one wants to patronise my shop, then after a while I'll close up and concede defeat.

That's the way business works.

And that's the way DAB should be rolled out here.

xband

The problem as I see it is that spending a heap of money on DAB would be like Eir starting a push on ISDN.

It's 80s/90s digital tech in what is now an IP world.

There's role for digital radio, but DAB isn't very likely to lead to anything very exciting.

end of the road

xband wrote: »

The problem as I see it is that spending a heap of money on DAB would be like Eir starting a push on ISDN.

so what? surely issuing the licences and you know, allowing people to be able to spend their money on it and if it works it works and if it doesn't it doesn't would be the best option? after all, we don't protect other businesses. why this protection of people from spending their money? after all, its not socially necessary so doesn't need protecting

xband wrote: »

It's 80s/90s digital tech in what is now an IP world.

dab is . dab+ isn't.

xband wrote: »

There's role for digital radio, but DAB isn't very likely to lead to anything very exciting.

maybe not. but there is only one way to find out. issue the licences and if it works it works, if not so be it.

xband

Licensing is one thing, but not lashing licence fee or state money into it, making it compulsory or vaguely threatening to cut off analogue FM as an incentive to switch. All of which has been done in the uk!

former total

This discussion sort of ignores the fact that commercial DAB has been tried. And failed.

In the the years since, has uptake of the hardware increased? Nope. Has 3G/4G availability of Internet radio increased? Massively.

It's been overtaken by a technology that may be inferior but sometimes that happens. All the while FM plods along happily in the background and meets the needs of the vast, vast majority of the market.

No one is going to want to invest huge cash in a niche product, and that's what DAB is. It's just commercial reality.

xband

I think you're going to see developments around multicasting linked to streaming products in the mobile networks over the next while though as they get more aggressive about managing bandwidth to ensure QOS.

The key for Irish broadcasters right now is to ensure that they have a platform to get into mobile devices.
I'd like to see something locally based that peers on the INEX and all the mobile providers here to ensure it gets decent service.

Otherwise, you're just going to see Spotify, Google and Apple take over the whole 'broadcast' market much like has already happened to the music sector.

Maybe that's what the BAI and ComReg should be focusing attention on right now to ensure a future for Irish broadcasters rather than fiddling around with what looks to me to be a dead end tech.

The scale of investment in these mobile networks though is absolutely huge. Three is spending €300m at the moment. Vodafone has lashed a lot into theirs and Eir/Meteor has done similar.

4G isn't on air that long, it's only been available since 2013 (launched by Meteor in Sept 13) so give them a while to get the gear up on the masts and the fibre to mast gear in to do the backhaul.
I've been getting really impressive speeds on Vodafone recently >70mbit/s and my cap isn't that restrictive tbh - I've enough data to stream all month in the car.

SimonMaher

Former Total - I must have missed this! When was a permanent DAB MUX licence issued in Ireland? I think you need to correct yourself here. There have been technical DAB trials here on a number of occasions (and one continues now) but outside of the RTE MUX, there is no, nor has there at any point been a permanent licenced DAB MUX in Ireland. I was a stakeholder in the 2007/2008 trial and there was no option for permanent operation after that. Perhaps you misunderstood the nature of those trials?

FM plods along, and should continue to plod along indefinitely to provide services and 3G/4G will continue to develop but why not DAB (+) too? People are exceptionally prickly about it and insistent on its non-viability and I don't understand why. What harm can trying it out commercially do?

Simon

IsaacWunder

We're way behind. Norway is set to switch off FM in 2017 (i.e. next year). Much lower population density there with about the same overall population as the island of Ireland.

It's an absolute scandal that the government are dragging their heels on rolling out DAB. Stinks of cronyism. Especially when there is an oligopoly in the radio market that benefits from delaying DAB rollout.

Let us not forget that one of the biggest players in the market, Communicorp, is owned by Denis O'Brien, a man who, the Moriarty Tribunal stated, "donated" over the equivalent of €1m in "clandestine circumstances" to a former government minister. Payments that "were demonstrably referable to the acts and conduct of [Minister Michael] Lowry...that inured to the benefit of Mr O'Brien's winning consortium".

All of this must be taken in the context that, under EU law, the State is obliged to roll out digital broadcasting. It truly is disgraceful.

end of the road

xband wrote: »

Licensing is one thing, but not lashing licence fee or state money into it, making it compulsory or vaguely threatening to cut off analogue FM as an incentive to switch. All of which has been done in the uk!

yes, hence i've stated we must not go down the route of the uk in relation to it.

former total wrote: »

This discussion sort of ignores the fact that commercial DAB has been tried. And failed.

right so the companies investing in more dab in the uk is a myth then? granted i believe they should all move to dab+.

former total wrote: »

In the years since, has uptake of the hardware increased? Nope.

actually, the take up of dab in the uk has increased. nothing to shout about but it has increased.

former total wrote: »

No one is going to want to invest huge cash in a niche product, and that's what DAB is.

prove it. i will give you the reality. you have no basis or proof for your claims. if the BAI issue the licences and implement the framework and there is no interest, then i will take your claims seriously. until then.

former total wrote: »

It's just commercial reality.

no, it isn't. people cannot get licences for it. there is no legal framework. nothing can be commercial reality when there is nothing to allow for something to be potential commercial reality. but your just not getting it are you dispite the situation in relation to ireland being explained to you.

former total

SimonMaher wrote: »

Former Total - I must have missed this! When was a permanent DAB MUX licence issued in Ireland? I think you need to correct yourself here. There have been technical DAB trials here on a number of occasions (and one continues now) but outside of the RTE MUX, there is no, nor has there at any point been a permanent licenced DAB MUX in Ireland. I was a stakeholder in the 2007/2008 trial and there was no option for permanent operation after that. Perhaps you misunderstood the nature of those trials?

FM plods along, and should continue to plod along indefinitely to provide services and 3G/4G will continue to develop but why not DAB (+) too? People are exceptionally prickly about it and insistent on its non-viability and I don't understand why. What harm can trying it out commercially do?

Simon

My post didn't mention anything about a permanent MUX so no, I don't need to correct myself and we'd have a more constructive discussion if you could stop making out that my opinion is based on ignorance, thanks.

The harm of trying it out commercially is that the people trying it out lose a **** load of money. That loss is the reason it hasn't been progressed. Rolling it out nationwide when only a tiny minority of people actually have the equipment to receive it is madness and no one is going to do so and no one is beating down the door of the BAI demanding a licence.

Unless we go down the route of switching off analogue, there is simply nothing that will drive people to it because the benefits compared to FM are marginal for the average listener.

end of the road

former total wrote: »

The harm of trying it out commercially is that the people trying it out lose a **** load of money.

how do we know. a permanent licence or a legal framework doesn't exist here in ireland. even if it was the case those trying it out would lose money, so what? many businesses set up and don't work out every day.

former total wrote: »

That loss is the reason it hasn't been progressed.

what loss. how can you progress anything when there is not even the legal framework to do it.

former total wrote: »

Rolling it out nationwide when only a tiny minority of people actually have the equipment to receive it is madness

why would people have the equipment when they have nothing to listen to via the equipment so don't bother buying it. give them something worth listening to (something that is actually the BAI'S job and which they are failing to do) and we will talk then

former total wrote: »

no one is going to do so

how do you know. what evidence have you got. simply saying lalala nobody is going to do this and that, isn't evidence. lets hear what you have got if you have anything at all.

former total wrote: »

no one is beating down the door of the BAI demanding a licence.

why would they when its likely the BAI will turn them down for "protectionist" reasons

former total wrote: »

there is simply nothing that will drive people to it because the benefits compared to FM are marginal for the average listener.

not if implemented properly, which if it was, it would be an extension of the terrestrial broadcast services. implement the frame work, allow for licences, and lets see once and for all. no reason not to apart from protectionist reasons.

xband

We're not way behind.

Finland abandoned DAB entirely 10 years ago, Sweden isn't sure about it nor is Iceland and none of those countries have any plans to switch off FM.

Radio is about great content and delivery, not about pushing a technology agenda.

Irish radio is light years ahead of a lot of places in terms of content. How that content reaches people is largely irrelevant.

Norway is highly unusual in its push to switch off FM.

former total

It's just too easy to reach for the off-the-shelf solution of blaming the BAI bogeyman.

There are many reasons why DAB hasn't taken off here. I've outlined a few of them. Disagree all you want, but they are all perfectly valid.

A very small market provides little potential for return on investment. You then exclude 99% of that market because they lack the hardware and advertisers won't be queuing up. Add to that, every DAB listener you attract is cannibalised from your existing FM audience and you're into a simply non-viable business case.

You don't expect people to buy DAB radios with no content, but you expect people to set up the network with no audience? It's a chicken and egg situation but that's the reality.

Let me throw out a suggestion; maybe BAI don't want to open bidding for licensing because they know it would be a flop?

xband

Considering that commercial DTT was a total flop, that's highly likely.

Unfortunately, DAB is the Betamax or Minidisc of broadcasting standards. It seemed like a great idea once upon a time but tech has moved on.

Mr Sea Wolf

IsaacWunder wrote: »

We're way behind. Norway is set to switch off FM in 2017 (i.e. next year). Much lower population density there with about the same overall population as the island of Ireland.

It's an absolute scandal that the government are dragging their heels on rolling out DAB. Stinks of cronyism. Especially when there is an oligopoly in the radio market that benefits from delaying DAB rollout.

Let us not forget that one of the biggest players in the market, Communicorp, is owned by Denis O'Brien, a man who, the Moriarty Tribunal stated, "donated" over the equivalent of €1m in "clandestine circumstances" to a former government minister. Payments that "were demonstrably referable to the acts and conduct of [Minister Michael] Lowry...that inured to the benefit of Mr O'Brien's winning consortium".

All of this must be taken in the context that, under EU law, the State is obliged to roll out digital broadcasting. It truly is disgraceful.

What a load of garbage

end of the road

former total wrote: »

It's just too easy to reach for the off-the-shelf solution of blaming the BAI bogeyman.

look, they are the regulator. they decide who can get on air and who can't, and via what means. there is no legal framework or any method of applying for a permanent dab+ mux licence in this country. who's fault is that, and who's job is it to implement such? the BAI'S. there is no reason not to have the relevant frame works in place to allow people to apply or set up dab muxes and dab stations. if people don't take it up, so be it.

former total wrote: »

There are many reasons why DAB hasn't taken off here.

there is only 1. the relevant frameworks aren't in place to even allow anything to happen.

former total wrote: »

I've outlined a few of them.

problem is, as there is nothing in place to allow any implementation, they cannot be proved

former total wrote: »

Disagree all you want, but they are all perfectly valid.

they aren't until such time as the frameworks are in place. implement the frameworks and if they turn out to be the case, then were done.

former total wrote: »

A very small market provides little potential for return on investment.

we can't know that as nobody can operate on a full legal basis via dab+.

former total wrote: »

You then exclude 99% of that market because they lack the hardware and advertisers won't be queuing up.

they lack the hardware because there is nothing to listen to so no point in buying the hardware.

former total wrote: »

Add to that, every DAB listener you attract is cannibalised from your existing FM audience

exactly. thats the whole reason why it won't be implemented. protectionism of the fm rather then allowing things to operate like other commercial businesses.

former total wrote: »

you're into a simply non-viable business case.

your into a possibly viable business case, just not a viable protectionist of the fm at all costs business case. but we won't know either way because of the protectionist anti-competitive stance of the BAI.

former total wrote: »

You don't expect people to buy DAB radios with no content, but you expect people to set up the network with no audience? It's a chicken and egg situation but that's the reality.

implement the frameworks and lets see. advertise and implement the lot properly and lets see. if it doesn't work so be it, at least we will know. there are no excuses here not to implement the relevant frameworks. protectionism in radio has no place. its not a socially necessary service apart from rte.

former total wrote: »

Let me throw out a suggestion; maybe BAI don't want to open bidding for licensing because they know it would be a flop?

let me put out a more likely suggestion. it is most likely the case the reason they won't allow bidding for licences is because of their protectionist policies toards fm. whether the BAI think they will be a flop or not is frankly irrelevant, and using that possibility to not allow licencing is frankly, anti-competitive and protectionist.

xband wrote: »

Considering that commercial DTT was a total flop, that's highly likely.

i'm not sure commercial dtt or dtt in general can really be compared to radio. there might be some aspects similar.

xband wrote: »

Unfortunately, DAB is the Betamax or Minidisc of broadcasting standards. It seemed like a great idea once upon a time but tech has moved on.

you keep forgetting about dab+. nobody (rightly) is suggesting using ordinary dab, its indeed rubbish and would need very high bitrates to sound any way decent which would possibly bring costs up.

Mr Sea Wolf wrote: »

What a load of garbage

well. considering its ireland, it wouldn't be surprising if it wasn't

Mr Sea Wolf wrote: »

a load of garbage