Our roads are falling apart

GM228

From today's Independent:-

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/many-of-our-busiest-roads-are-falling-apart-study-34317425.html

Almost half of the country's busiest roads are in need of urgent repairs, with some in such poor condition they are officially classed as "virtually undriveable".

An analysis of roads controlled by local authorities shows that almost 13,000km - or 13pc of the entire total network - suffers from "structural distress" which ranges from extensive potholes, surfaces which are disintegrating and cracking and severe rutting, where grooves are worn into the surface from extensive use.

DO NOT QUOTE FULL ARTICLES -- MOD

Atlantic Dawn

The country has too many roads for its size, too many one off houses that are not sustainable with the tiny property tax collected to maintain them.

eezipc

Roads are quite atrocious now, especially with all the recent floods. I drive regularly between Roscommon and Galway and there are alot of new holes in the roads.
Also, it seems to me that alot of "newer" roads were not designed very well. For example, the small bypass in Tuam (between the Dunmore road and Claremorris road) is relatively new and that was under water for a long time. Also, the end of the bus lane in Claregalway was flooded for a long time as well. Surely when designing roads, drainage should be taken into account.

PCeeeee

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

The country has too many roads for its size, too many one off houses that are not sustainable with the tiny property tax collected to maintain them.

Is the property tax used to maintain the roads?

GM228

PCeeeee wrote: »

Is the property tax used to maintain the roads?

From the GCC Website (I think all councils use it for similar purposes):-

http://www.galwaycity.ie/local-property-tax-information/#topSearch

This money contributes towards the cost of providing a range of local Council services including housing services, road maintenance, public lighting, fire services, libraries, recreation and amenity facilities, arts and cultural supports, litter management and street cleaning, supporting community initiatives and economic development.

PCeeeee

GM228 wrote: »

From the GCC Website (I think all councils use it for similar purposes):-

http://www.galwaycity.ie/local-property-tax-information/#topSearch

Thank you GM228, that is frankly bizarre, given the extraordinary sums collected in from the 'motorist'. The motor tax, the fuel excise and VRT.

n97 mini

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

The country has too many roads for its size, too many one off houses that are not sustainable with the tiny property tax collected to maintain them.

Exactly, we've too many roads. We've six times per person what Britain has. That's a lot of road to be paid for.

PCeeeee

n97 mini wrote: »

Exactly, we've too many roads. We've six times per person what Britain has. That's a lot of road to be paid for.

I wonder is a comparison to a vastly more populous territory entirely valid? I wonder how stand in comparison to a similarly populated country?

Del2005

PCeeeee wrote: »

Thank you GM228, that is frankly bizarre, given the extraordinary sums collected in from the 'motorist'. The motor tax, the fuel excise and VRT.

Motor tax, or any other tax paid by motorists, never funded the roads. Well it was supposed to years ago when it was called road tax to fund local councils, but now it goes into the big pool and gets squandered on stuff like hospitals and schools.

Stealthfins

Don't believe the bullisht about needing money from the EU for our roads.
All the chipping comes from our own limestone quarries.
As well as that,there is machines now which can basically churn up the old tarmac and recycle it back into the roads.
It goes in all mushed up,mixed with tar and relayed evenly again.
Steam rolled and voila.....

marketty

Del2005 wrote:

Motor tax, or any other tax paid by motorists, never funded the roads. Well it was supposed to years ago when it was called road tax to fund local councils, but now it goes into the big pool and gets squandered on stuff like hospitals and schools.

Motor tax was supposed to pay for water...I'll get my coat...

ezra_pound

PCeeeee wrote: »

Thank you GM228, that is frankly bizarre, given the extraordinary sums collected in from the 'motorist'. The motor tax, the fuel excise and VRT.

You must be joking!

ezra_pound

Del2005 wrote: »

Motor tax, or any other tax paid by motorists, never funded the roads. Well it was supposed to years ago when it was called road tax to fund local councils, but now it goes into the big pool and gets squandered on stuff like hospitals and schools.

Motor tax along with vrt and other motoring taxes does not come anywhere near providing funding for maintaining roads.

lisasimpson

The dunnkettle roundabout surface is in shocking condition at the moment esp when exiting the tunnel..id say most down to the volume of traffic is dealing with

anothernight

n97 mini wrote: »

Exactly, we've too many roads. We've six times per person what Britain has. That's a lot of road to be paid for.

Not disagreeing with you or anything, but does it not make more sense to look at kilometres per country area? Or kilometres per total distance between urban centres?

If you have two cities with a very small population in each and a road connecting them, you'll still need the same length of road as if both cities have very large populations, so I don't think km/population is a good indicator tbh.

lisasimpson

two factors adding to this problem 1. lack of a public transport options for the large urban centres. 2.the lack of one main waterways authority to maintain our river systems if the rivers were cleaned and looked after properly the water would drain off the roads properly once the drains are cleared and open

enricoh

The budget for infrastructure was slashed when the tiger calved and its coming home to roost now.
Politicians much prefer slashing spending on roads than PS wages n the dole coz there will be no union reps or poverty quango guy on rte moaning about it. Its basicallya hasslefree way of cutting spending

Banjoxed

What odds that bit of journalism came on foot of a press release from someone selling aggregate?

Carawaystick

lisasimpson wrote: »

2.the lack of one main waterways authority to maintain our river systems if the rivers were cleaned and looked after properly the water would drain off the roads properly once the drains are cleared and open

The tii took central control of the n40 and tunnel and its run by Cowboys since, so central control is no panacea

Macy0161

A lot of it comes down to the road network never being properly constructed in the first place - no proper base layers, just tarmac over the existing dirt/ stone road.

For what it's worth, I was out on the bike this afternoon, and the deterioration in the road surfaces since autumn is quite shocking - I know its been wet, but there hasn't been any frost of note yet which tends to do the real damage.

Carawaystick

New year's resolution.
not to read or respond to the indo.
It's like the daily mail, with even lower standards.

This seems to be saying boreens are in poor condition.
If Bears lived here still, they'd be defecating in areas with lots of trees.

CJhaughey

Macy0161 wrote: »

A lot of it comes down to the road network never being properly constructed in the first place - no proper base layers, just tarmac over the existing dirt/ stone road.

For what it's worth, I was out on the bike this afternoon, and the deterioration in the road surfaces since autumn is quite shocking - I know its been wet, but there hasn't been any frost of note yet which tends to do the real damage.

Its hydraulic pressure that causes most damage, frost is one kind but heavy traffic forces water into the tarmac pores and eventually breaks them up and the road comes apart, Fracking our own roads is what is is.

Del2005

marketty wrote: »

Motor tax was supposed to pay for water...I'll get my coat...

Road tax was supposed to fund local councils, who supplied water, Motor tax always went to central government to be doled out as they see fit.

Dricmeister

Some major roads around Dublin are in appalling condition. If one's car is damaged by a large pothole, does one have any comeback? Thanks.

Del2005

Dricmeister wrote: »

Some major roads around Dublin are in appalling condition. If one's car is damaged by a large pothole, does one have any comeback? Thanks.

Once the pothole has already been reported you can claim compensation. The councils are usually fairly good at compensating, maybe because it's cheaper than repairing the actual road.

hognef

anothernight wrote: »

Not disagreeing with you or anything, but does it not make more sense to look at kilometres per country area? Or kilometres per total distance between urban centres?

If you have two cities with a very small population in each and a road connecting them, you'll still need the same length of road as if both cities have very large populations, so I don't think km/population is a good indicator tbh.

Comparison with a selection of similarly-populated countries (note: paved roads only):

Country	     Paved road (km)  Pop. (mill)  Area (sq.km)  Road/1000 pop  Road/area
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ireland      96036            4.595         84421        20.9           1.14
Denmark      73929            5.614         43094        13.2           1.72
Norway       75754            5.084        385178        14.9            .20
Switzerland  71464            8.081         41285         8.8           1.73

Road lengths (2014) obtained from https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2085.html; population and surface area (both 2013) from Google.

Banjoxed

Carawaystick wrote: »

New year's resolution.
not to read or respond to the indo.
It's like the daily mail, with even lower standards.

This seems to be saying boreens are in poor condition.
If Bears lived here still, they'd be defecating in areas with lots of trees.

In other shock news, Pope found to be a Catholic

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.

n97 mini

anothernight wrote: »

Not disagreeing with you or anything, but does it not make more sense to look at kilometres per country area? Or kilometres per total distance between urban centres?

If you have two cities with a very small population in each and a road connecting them, you'll still need the same length of road as if both cities have very large populations, so I don't think km/population is a good indicator tbh.

When people have to pay for roads, it's the only comparison that's relevant. For every 1km a citizen has to pay for in the UK, an Irish citizen has to pay for 6km.

jimmycrackcorm

There's something very wrong about where money is allocated and by whom. I remember a few years back that the Letterkenny dual carriageway was redone despite nothing wrong simply because of some structural funding that would not be available otherwise.

Recently close to my home a number of roundabouts and junctions were redone again with nothing wrong with them. In fact the roundabouts were narrowed to a single lane so much so that buses have to overlap them.

The prioritization seems to be missing.

Dr_Colossus

A lot of the problems with the current state of the roads can also be attributed to the councils themselves and the inexcusable attempts at repairing them. A lump of tar patted down with the back of a shovel leaving a dangerously uneven surface doesn't constitute a repair job but to most councils this suffices.

Also take for instance one of the worst surfaces in Dublin, the Old Cabra Road. This was finally resurfaced earlier this year and a fine job was made of it but not more than two weeks after there was a channel dug across the newly surfaced finish and a mound much higher than the existing surface left in it's place. It's practically yet another speed bump an a road already littered with them.

The council and their inept workers have a lot to answer for.

anothernight

n97 mini wrote: »

When people have to pay for roads, it's the only comparison that's relevant. For every 1km a citizen has to pay for in the UK, an Irish citizen has to pay for 6km.

I don't consider roads (or indeed, infrastructure in general) a non-essential expense because the country doesn't have the option to not have roads in populated areas. Since the topography of the country and the population distribution can be different, your comparison makes little sense in my opinion.

Again, I'm not actually disagreeing with you that Ireland has too many roads! I just think your metric is flawed. It's like saying that Spain has too many solar panels just because Ireland doesn't, while ignoring the fact that solar energy works better in a sunny country.

The UK has a population of 64.1 million. According to the department for transport, there are 395619.9 km of all roads in the UK. That's 6171.9 km per million people. Ireland has a population of 4.595 million and a road network of 98000km as per the article (I could only find figures that were slightly smaller than that, but I'll go with the article). That's 21327.5 km per million people, or around 3.5 times the ratio for the UK. Incidentally, the ratio for Spain is 14246, so the Irish network is just under 1.5 times as big by your metric. 14489 for France, so still less than 1.5 times. Conversely, the Irish network is 16 times bigger, using your metric, than that of Monaco. And only half as big as the network in Iceland!

Of course, none of those figures take into account how much space there is between each city, how rural the countries in question are, whether there are any mountains to get around, rivers and lakes, etc., how densely populated the country is, whether there are other public transport options to encourage people to depend less on car transport, risk of freeze-thaw deterioration, materials used, etc etc. The metrics I proposed don't address some of those factors either (specifically, the ones that cause faster deterioration of the roads), but at least they cover the very basic fact that you can't just do away with roads that are needed to connect populated areas, only those that are redundant.

I can't say that Ireland has too many roads because I'm not familiar enough with the network outside of county Dublin, but remembering how badly designed some roads in Dublin are (and having seen the weird and wonderful ideas of some transport engineers in Dublin), it really wouldn't surprise me if the network isn't at all optimised for its purpose.

PS: Sorry for the overly long post... I clearly need to get a life.

StudentDad

As someone said it isn't just about roads. It's also about decent, cheap public transport. It doesn't exist. A few years ago I considered commuting a few miles by train to a prospective job. You'd think in a modern country this would be possible. Nope. The journey by train would have been roughly an hour one way and the same in reverse. Was it in any way doable? Not a hope! I would have been forced by economics to take the car. So long as the car is given precedence over everything else, our roads are going to be god awful. I remember a relative of mine a good few years ago now (a man who had lived most of his life abroad) actually laughing at some of the designs of "motorway" in Ireland.

So long as we have an "ach sure it'll do" and a "better slap a few more tolls on that road" and my favourite "better build another crap road" instead of doing it properly or offering an alternative to the car, our road network will continue to be god awful.

SD

marmurr1916

There are about 98,000 km of public roads in Ireland. Most of the roads in very poor condition are local roads which carry a small percentage of all traffic. Ireland has too many kilometres of public roads for its population. As a start, it would be great if all rural cul-de-sacs were declared to be no longer public roads, followed by local roads with only a handful of houses on them. Many of the local tertiary roads would not be public roads in other European states - they would be private roads with full responsibility for maintenance falling on those who own properties along those roads.

For many other local roads, county councils should charge an annual maintenance fee to residents and businesses along the roads. It would help reduce the demand for one-off rural houses which has led to such a high proportion of Ireland's population living in dispersed patterns in rural areas, a grossly inefficient and environmentally unfriendly form of population distribution that costs the state billions every year through the extra costs of providing infrastructure and services to people who choose to live in the countryside even when there is no necessity for them to do so.

Almost 35% of Irish postal addresses are for addresses in rural townlands, yet less than 10% of the poplulation are involved in occupations that require them to live in the countryside.

About 25% of Ireland's population live in the countryside by choice, not out of necessity.

For example, my sister and her husband live in the countryside in Co. Cork, even though she works in Cork city and he works as an electrician, servicing fire and security systems throughout Munster.

There is no need for them to live in the countryside, they live there by choice.

If people want to live in the countryside by choice, in a grossly inefficient and environmentally unfriendly manner they should pay for it rather than the cost being borne by the entire population.

Only rural dwellers who can demonstrate that their occupations require them to live in the countryside should be exempt from paying extra for roads and other services. Everyone else, those who choose to live in the countryside, should pay extra rather than pushing the cost onto people who have chosen to live in more responsible, efficient and environmentally friendly locations.

eezipc

marmurr1916 wrote: »

There are about 98,000 km of public roads in Ireland. Most of the roads in very poor condition are local roads which carry a small percentage of all traffic. Ireland has too many kilometres of public roads for its population. As a start, it would be great if all rural cul-de-sacs were declared to be no longer public roads, followed by local roads with only a handful of houses on them. Many of the local tertiary roads would not be public roads in other European states - they would be private roads with full responsibility for maintenance falling on those who own properties along those roads.

For many other local roads, county councils should charge an annual maintenance fee to residents and businesses along the roads. It would help reduce the demand for one-off rural houses which has led to such a high proportion of Ireland's population living in dispersed patterns in rural areas, a grossly inefficient and environmentally unfriendly form of population distribution that costs the state billions every year through the extra costs of providing infrastructure and services to people who choose to live in the countryside even when there is no necessity for them to do so.

Almost 35% of Irish postal addresses are for addresses in rural townlands, yet less than 10% of the poplulation are involved in occupations that require them to live in the countryside.

About 25% of Ireland's population live in the countryside by choice, not out of necessity.

For example, my sister and her husband live in the countryside in Co. Cork, even though she works in Cork city and he works as an electrician, servicing fire and security systems throughout Munster.

There is no need for them to live in the countryside, they live there by choice.

If people want to live in the countryside by choice, in a grossly inefficient and environmentally unfriendly manner they should pay for it rather than the cost being borne by the entire population.

Only rural dwellers who can demonstrate that their occupations require them to live in the countryside should be exempt from paying extra for roads and other services. Everyone else, those who choose to live in the countryside, should pay extra rather than pushing the cost onto people who have chosen to live in more responsible, efficient and environmentally friendly locations.

You have got the whole thing backwards my friend. Most people who live in the country don't want to work in the city. They work in the city because they have no choice. So maybe people who live in the country should be compensated for having to drive to the cities for work....

kaizersoze

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

The country has too many roads for its size, too many one off houses that are not sustainable with the tiny property tax collected to maintain them.

True or not, there's no point debating that now. The roads are there and need to be maintained. I doubt there will be any of them shut down to bring us into line.

Sam Kade

marmurr1916 wrote: »

There are about 98,000 km of public roads in Ireland. Most of the roads in very poor condition are local roads which carry a small percentage of all traffic. Ireland has too many kilometres of public roads for its population. As a start, it would be great if all rural cul-de-sacs were declared to be no longer public roads, followed by local roads with only a handful of houses on them. Many of the local tertiary roads would not be public roads in other European states - they would be private roads with full responsibility for maintenance falling on those who own properties along those roads.

For many other local roads, county councils should charge an annual maintenance fee to residents and businesses along the roads. It would help reduce the demand for one-off rural houses which has led to such a high proportion of Ireland's population living in dispersed patterns in rural areas, a grossly inefficient and environmentally unfriendly form of population distribution that costs the state billions every year through the extra costs of providing infrastructure and services to people who choose to live in the countryside even when there is no necessity for them to do so.

Almost 35% of Irish postal addresses are for addresses in rural townlands, yet less than 10% of the poplulation are involved in occupations that require them to live in the countryside.

About 25% of Ireland's population live in the countryside by choice, not out of necessity.

For example, my sister and her husband live in the countryside in Co. Cork, even though she works in Cork city and he works as an electrician, servicing fire and security systems throughout Munster.

There is no need for them to live in the countryside, they live there by choice.

If people want to live in the countryside by choice, in a grossly inefficient and environmentally unfriendly manner they should pay for it rather than the cost being borne by the entire population.

Only rural dwellers who can demonstrate that their occupations require them to live in the countryside should be exempt from paying extra for roads and other services. Everyone else, those who choose to live in the countryside, should pay extra rather than pushing the cost onto people who have chosen to live in more responsible, efficient and environmentally friendly locations.

Nonsense, take farmers for instance they need to live near their work but don't let that get in the way of your generalisation :mad:

newacc2015

eezipc wrote: »

You have got the whole thing backwards my friend. Most people who live in the country don't want to work in the city. They work in the city because they have no choice. So maybe people who live in the country should be compensated for having to drive to the cities for work....

Or maybe they could give up their high paying jobs in the city which required 4 years of undergrad and a masters to work for a poor wage as a farmer or retail in the local shop. I sure they can find a job close to them like that. But not they will choose the higher paid job in a city

I hate this argument of people moaning about having to move to a big city like Dublin for work from their glorified village in the west as "there is no work". Im sorry but how many towns in Ireland or anywhere else in the world can support several Doctors, Dentists, Solicitors, Accountants etc like these people think they should? If you are choose to become a Doctor or a Dentist, you need to realise from the start that the chances of you working where you are from are extremely limited.

I have German/American friends who are highly educated and come from small towns. They knew they had no choice but to move to a large city for employment. Yet Irish people just cant seem to understand that a village cant support everyone.

Eugene Norman

Sam Kade wrote: »

Nonsense, take farmers for instance they need to live near their work but don't let that get in the way of your generalisation :mad:

He said 25% live in the countryside by choice. As in they work in a city or town and don't live in a city or town (or even a village). Now if you do the maths you can exclude farmers and more and still be left with 25%

Atlantic Dawn

kaizersoze wrote: »

True or not, there's no point debating that now. The roads are there and need to be maintained. I doubt there will be any of them shut down to bring us into line.

Property taxes should be based on a flat square meter size whether your living in D4 or down the country for a start.

murphaph

Just some food for thought...
We are building a house on a site on the outskirts of Berlin. The site is within an urban area. Building a dwelling outside an urban area is illegal in Germany and has been for decades. The previous owners of our site had to pay just under 25k to the local commune when the road fronting their property was rehabilitated (new foundations, new drainage, new footpaths and lighting etc.). All the neighbours got similar bills.

This is the way it goes here, those living along the road pay for its maintenance. People who live in apartments in cities are not expected to fund the cost of building and maintaining local roads that serve no other purpose than providing access to single family homes. I think this is fair, even though I will be one of those paying directly for "my road" in the years to come.

Eugene Norman

StudentDad wrote: »

As someone said it isn't just about roads. It's also about decent, cheap public transport. It doesn't exist. A few years ago I considered commuting a few miles by train to a prospective job. You'd think in a modern country this would be possible. Nope. The journey by train would have been roughly an hour one way and the same in reverse. Was it in any way doable? Not a hope! I would have been forced by economics to take the car. So long as the car is given precedence over everything else, our roads are going to be god awful. I remember a relative of mine a good few years ago now (a man who had lived most of his life abroad) actually laughing at some of the designs of "motorway" in Ireland.

So long as we have an "ach sure it'll do" and a "better slap a few more tolls on that road" and my favourite "better build another crap road" instead of doing it properly or offering an alternative to the car, our road network will continue to be god awful.

SD

The guy who lived abroad was an expert on motorways because he lived abroad? Motorways in Ireland are fine. Better than many. Newer than most. And I've lived abroad.

Also your argument doesn't make sense. The roads aren't bad because we don't spend money on trains, that makes no sense. We should invest in both good main roads and good public transport. Unfortunately we did the former during the boom, not the latter.

fly_agaric

Sam Kade wrote: »

Nonsense, take farmers for instance they need to live near their work but don't let that get in the way of your generalisation :mad:

Yep farmers need to live there but there's alot more than just them living in effectively the middle of nowhere and commuting to some job in a city, a town or a village.

This dispersed way of living is an Irish societal and political choice and it's a big (and semi-hidden) cost. it makes providing not just good roads and public transportation but all the services of the 20th and 21st centuries (which people naturally expect!) very dear.

It makes development of the country in general harder too (dispersed people = no critical mass for employment, services etc).

Sam Kade

Eugene Norman wrote: »

He said 25% live in the countryside by choice. As in they work in a city or town and don't live in a city or town (or even a village). Now if you do the maths you can exclude farmers and more and still be left with 25%

My bad, my fingers went ahead of my brain.

Sam Kade

fly_agaric wrote: »

Yep farmers need to live there but there's alot more than just them living in effectively the middle of nowhere and commuting to some job in a city, a town or a village.

This dispersed way of living is an Irish societal and political choice and it's a big (and semi-hidden) cost. it makes providing not just good roads and public transportation but all the services of the 20th and 21st centuries (which people naturally expect!) very dear.

It makes development of the country in general harder too (dispersed people = no critical mass for employment, services etc).

It doesn't exist in Ireland as you wouldn't need to go very far to come across civilisation Maybe the out back in Australia but you won't find it here.

murphaph

The reality is that only farmers really need to live in dwellings outside village boundaries. The vet, schoolteacher etc. can all live inside the local village boundaries. Even farmers can live inside village boundaries in many cases (cereal farmers for sure, farmers with animals to tend to possibly less so, but many still could. Even dairy herds can be milked automatically these days with no need for the farmer to be up at all hours of the morning to do it manually).

A tiny tiny fraction of those living in dwellings outside village boundaries actually need to do so, much much less than 25% IMO. It's a lifestyle choice, end of story. It is also not a traditional Irish settlement pattern. It started with cheap oil and more readily available private motor cars. It's sad to see how so many once thriving rural towns and villages have had the life literally sucked out of them as people move to one off properties a few km from them and then sure it's just as handy to shop in Tescos as you have to drive everywhere anyway. Then they wonder why the local town is dead.

Cookie_Monster

Why do all roads need to be paved? 34% of roads in NZ are unpaved, mainly just gravel or compacted dirt.
Would save a lot of maintenance costs on rarely used roads in the middle of nowhere.

Del2005

StudentDad wrote: »

As someone said it isn't just about roads. It's also about decent, cheap public transport. It doesn't exist. A few years ago I considered commuting a few miles by train to a prospective job. You'd think in a modern country this would be possible. Nope. The journey by train would have been roughly an hour one way and the same in reverse. Was it in any way doable? Not a hope! I would have been forced by economics to take the car. So long as the car is given precedence over everything else, our roads are going to be god awful. I remember a relative of mine a good few years ago now (a man who had lived most of his life abroad) actually laughing at some of the designs of "motorway" in Ireland.

So long as we have an "ach sure it'll do" and a "better slap a few more tolls on that road" and my favourite "better build another crap road" instead of doing it properly or offering an alternative to the car, our road network will continue to be god awful.

SD

We can't do public transport because everyone lives to far away from each other it isn't cost effective. There's nowhere to build train lines to and due to the low density buses have to make too many stops so people don't use them.

If the government had stuck to the national spatial strategy we could have had decent population centres to link with rail but instead they scuppered it by decentralising departments to their local village.

Charles Babbage

murphaph wrote: »

A tiny tiny fraction of those living in dwellings outside village boundaries actually need to do so, much much less than 25% IMO. It's a lifestyle choice, end of story. It is also not a traditional Irish settlement pattern. It started with cheap oil and more readily available private motor cars. It's sad to see how so many once thriving rural towns and villages have had the life literally sucked out of them as people move to one off properties a few km from them and then sure it's just as handy to shop in Tescos as you have to drive everywhere anyway. Then they wonder why the local town is dead.

This is a gross simplification, Irish population has always been dispersed. What proportion of townlands in Ireland have higher population now than in the 19th century?

There is no reason why Irish roads cannot be maintained appropriately, other than an unwillingness to spend money and a preference to spend money on other things. Despite the dispersed population ranted about here, Ireland has never spent as much on roads as other places, leading to an accumulation of needed repairs.

murphaph

Charles Babbage wrote: »

This is a gross simplification, Irish population has always been dispersed. What proportion of townlands in Ireland have higher population now than in the 19th century?

Irish people lived in the country, but they lived in small clusters. One off homes are a modern phenomenon.

Charles Babbage

murphaph wrote: »

Irish people lived in the country, but they lived in small clusters. One off homes are a modern phenomenon.

Granted, and it would be better if this was still the case. However, this has little enough effect on the amount of road.