Eviction notice as a Christmas present!

daisyday121

My sister arrived home to find an eviction notice in her letterbox from her landlord. He's decided to sell. Why the need to do it today? P***k

rawn

Bit of a díck move morally but realistically maybe it's not viable for the LL to wait any longer to serve notice. Best of luck to your sister.

Tigger

That's awful
I can't believe someone would do that

The_Conductor

Realistically he had to serve notice before the end of the year- it was crap doing it on Christmas eve- but it was going to be turning up over the next few days........ Sorry for your sister

murphaph

Maybe the landlord's kid needs specialist medical treatment and he's selling up to pay for it. OK, highly unlikely but the point is you don't know his reasons for selling. Given the very high rents and static property prices it would seem the landlord is not selling at an optimum time....maybe they really need the money. He possibly even thought the letter might take a bit longer to arrive...doubt he timed it to arrive on Xmas eve to be honest.

Eric Cartman

perhaps landlord lives down the country and was only home today so delivered the letter by hand. Ive seen this happen a few times.

the_syco

murphaph wrote: »

He possibly even thought the letter might take a bit longer to arrive...doubt he timed it to arrive on Xmas eve to be honest.

Or the opposite; it was delayed because the xmas postage was busy.

The_Conductor

I was thinking it may be the new Act- some of the provisions came in on the 4th December- more come in on the first of Jan. The notice periods- in particular for those on tenancies of 5yrs + are a lot higher than they were under the old Act. Anyhow- it is a crap thing to happen at this time of the year.........

daisyday121

Thanks for all your replies. I've spoken to her and he never gave an actual eviction date, just that they needed to leave as he was putting the house up for sale. They also need to let people view it. To my knowledge this can't actually be a proper eviction notice as it needs a date for leaving, so why leave it on Christmas Eve?

Mrs OBumble

As Ireland becomes increasingly non-Christian, the significance of Christmas will diminish. It's just another set of bank-holidays to many people, no reason why notice cannot be dropped off then.

It sucks at any time, but as you say, without a date it's not a proper notice.

Tigger

tell her not to let viewings without her there
then be akward; no need to be nice to someone like this

Tigger

The_Conductor wrote: »

Realistically he had to serve notice before the end of the year- it was crap doing it on Christmas eve- but it was going to be turning up over the next few days........ Sorry for your sister

new rules are in from 04-12-15

Tigger

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

As Ireland becomes increasingly non-Christian, the significance of Christmas will diminish. It's just another set of bank-holidays to many people, no reason why notice cannot be dropped off then.

It sucks at any time, but as you say, without a date it's not a proper notice.

christmas was here before the christians

happy holidays

murphaph

Tigger wrote: »

tell her not to let viewings without her there
then be akward; no need to be nice to someone like this

You have no idea of what troubles the landlord might be facing but sure make life awkward for them anyway.

Arbiter of Good Taste

Tigger wrote: »

tell her not to let viewings without her there
then be akward; no need to be nice to someone like this

Miserable attitude

Tigger

murphaph wrote: »

You have no idea of what troubles the landlord might be facing but sure make life awkward for them anyway.

You don't think an eviction notice at christmas doesn't make things awkward

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

Miserable attitude

An eviction notice through no fault of the tenant on Christmas Eve and I've got the miserable attitude?
What possaible difference would waiting till the new year have ? Are the estate agents around to even list it ?
And if the landlord is in difficulties they should have approached the tenant and explained and apologised not stuck an eviction notice in with the Christmas cards


So as far as I can see the only change that comes in on January 1st that could effect the landlord is a statutory decllration that they are really selling the house that would lead to them getting punished if it turned out that wasn't the real reason.

antoinolachtnai

First it is not an eviction notice. What the OP describes is, at best, a termination notice and it may not even amount to that.

This has certainly not been handled well. A lot of landlords are not very good at the property rental business. The customer facing part is very difficult for a lot of people. This is part of having small scale landlords.

The landlord may have done a good job at least in that he gave as much notice as he could.

Tigger

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

First it is not an eviction notice. What the OP describes is, at best, a termination notice and it may not even amount to that.

This has certainly not been handled well. A lot of landlords are not very good at the property rental business. The customer facing part is very difficult for a lot of people. This is part of having small scale landlords.

The landlord may have done a good job at least in that he gave as much notice as he could.

Notice is statutory and while it's a termination notice (or not if it hasn't been written correctly) it will feel like an eviction notice

The_Conductor

Tigger wrote: »

Notice is statutory and while it's a termination notice (or not if it hasn't been written correctly) it will feel like an eviction notice

Its not a proper notice- on the basis of the information the OP has described- in my opinion its more an information note- advising that the landlord *is* selling the property- and a termination of tenancy notice is imminent on that basis (aka the tenant should do their best to start looking elsewhere asap- however, they do not have to move in the short term........)?

antoinolachtnai

And that is one of the problems with dealing with property issues. For lots of reasons it is a very emotional thing and I have every sympathy with this tenant.

But when things start being called by what they feel like rather than what they actually are then it becomes impossible to discuss and resolve issues reasonably.

Graham

Tigger wrote: »

What possaible difference would waiting till the new year have ?

It would have given the tenant a fortnight less notice so the complaint would have then been "landlord knew two weeks earlier that he was selling and couldn't be bothered to tell me".

The landlord may have already contracted with an agent and decided better to let the tenant know ASAP rather than having them spot the place on daft.

Arbiter of Good Taste

Tigger wrote: »

You don't think an eviction notice at christmas doesn't make things awkward



An eviction notice through no fault of the tenant on Christmas Eve and I've got the miserable attitude?
What possaible difference would waiting till the new year have ? Are the estate agents around to even list it ?
And if the landlord is in difficulties they should have approached the tenant and explained and apologised not stuck an eviction notice in with the Christmas cards


So as far as I can see the only change that comes in on January 1st that could effect the landlord is a statutory decllration that they are really selling the house that would lead to them getting punished if it turned out that wasn't the real reason.

"Through no fault of the tenant"? Sorry, but that's the risk you take when you rent. It's unfortunate, but the notice of eviction can come at any time. So, the LL,waits until new year, and you would probably be on here complaining how it's the worst time of the year, credit card bills to pay, ages until pay day, etc etc.

We don't know what relationship the OP's sister has with her LL. Maybe a bit of give and take such as allowing viewings might mean the tenant has the leverage to negotiate staying on longer for reduced rent. Or, alternatively, she can just be a stubborn mule.

Deep Thought

Eviction is differ t than termination.

He has said he is selling the property , that's termination of the lease but they are not being evicted. Eviction is to expel someone by legal process , eg failure to pay rent.

It was terrible to do it Christmas Eve and landlord should have benn more considerate .

murphaph

Graham wrote: »

It would have given the tenant a fortnight less notice so the complaint would have then been "landlord knew two weeks earlier that he was selling and couldn't be bothered to tell me".

^^ exactly this. Landlord's are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

FrStone

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

Miserable attitude

What she should actually do is only allow viewings on negotiating a 50% reduction in the rent for the months they're all be viewings...

the_pen_turner

was it posted or hand delivered.

athtrasna

FrStone wrote: »

What she should actually do is only allow viewings on negotiating a 50% reduction in the rent for the months they're all be viewings...

What makes you think she is entitled to do this? If the lease is being terminated she doesn't have any rights to start calling the shots. The LL may decide not to do viewings until the property is empty.

Arbiter of Good Taste

FrStone wrote: »

What she should actually do is only allow viewings on negotiating a 50% reduction in the rent for the months they're all be viewings...

I agree. But some posters prefer to take a cut-your-nose-off-to-spite-your-face position. I guess they get satisfaction from sticking to the "greedy" landlord.

FrStone

athtrasna wrote: »

What makes you think she is entitled to do this? If the lease is being terminated she doesn't have any rights to start calling the shots. The LL may decide not to do viewings until the property is empty.

That's fine, but if landlord wants viewings during the notice period (which hasn't yet started), she should negotiate a substantial reduction in the rent.

The fact the lease is being terminated means she very much can call the shots, she can prolong this process for close to two years if she sticks her feet in (why she would want stress like that is beyond me, it would be much easier to move).

Marcusm

athtrasna wrote: »

What makes you think she is entitled to do this? If the lease is being terminated she doesn't have any rights to start calling the shots. The LL may decide not to do viewings until the property is empty.

Remember that as has been established on multiple occasions here, a tenant can never be required to facilitate or permit viewings so some level of give/take would be of advantage to both sides. Such as facilitating viewings in return for being allowed to depart at short notice if another property can be secured.

borderlinemeath

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

First it is not an eviction notice. What the OP describes is, at best, a termination notice and it may not even amount to that.

This has certainly not been handled well. A lot of landlords are not very good at the property rental business. The customer facing part is very difficult for a lot of people. This is part of having small scale landlords.

The landlord may have done a good job at least in that he gave as much notice as he could.

A large scale management company wouldn't give a second thought as to the time of year, business is business regardless of holidays. Nothing to do with whether the landlord is a REIT or failed investor/accidental landlord.

antoinolachtnai

It is not a matter of what they would do. It is a matter of how they would go about it.

borderlinemeath

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

It is not a matter of what they would do. It is a matter of how they would go about it.

I don't think the OPs sister cares either way. All she cares about is security of tenancy. Even if it's a termination notice rather than eviction notice, either way she'll have to find somewhere else to live in the not too distant future.

daisyday121

Just some background here. They've been in the house just under 6 months. The house was a state when they moved in so they agreed a reduced rent if they redecorated. They put down new floors, carpets and repainted. They put down decking and planted new grass. Their lease was for 2 years as they have a new baby and had no plans to leave. The letter was posted through the door late in the evening by an agent of the landlord whilst they were there. I understand that business is business, but this feels like they've been taken advantage of.

Graces7

daisyday121 wrote: »

Thanks for all your replies. I've spoken to her and he never gave an actual eviction date, just that they needed to leave as he was putting the house up for sale. They also need to let people view it. To my knowledge this can't actually be a proper eviction notice as it needs a date for leaving, so why leave it on Christmas Eve?

This called " desk clearing" and a policy of the civil service etc and is totally callous and intolerant and many other things I cannot say here. Just o they can say they finished their work Had to pick the pieces up once after a bank served a repossession notice on a farmer friend on at the same time. he almost killed himself. The worst thing in both these cases is that you can do nothing until after the holidays...You need to call threshold as soon as they open after the holidays; I had a similar word from my landlord and they were stars. Sounds that that letter is not legally viable or binding and she will need to play for time so find somewhere else. I know now that I will have 112 days if and when my landlord does decide to sell or move in here. Nothing in writing so fine so far

Graces7

daisyday121 wrote: »

Just some background here. They've been in the house just under 6 months. The house was a state when they moved in so they agreed a reduced rent if they redecorated. They put down new floors, carpets and repainted. They put down decking and planted new grass. Their lease was for 2 years as they have a new baby and had no plans to leave. The letter was posted through the door late in the evening by an agent of the landlord whilst they were there. I understand that business is business, but this feels like they've been taken advantage of.

Thanks; I posted above before I read this. The 6 month deadline explains more. You need the expert and cool headed advice Threshold will give you. And they will need exact lease terms in writing as all this sounds irregular. But the 6 month timing is unfortunate.

kirving

daisyday121 wrote: »

Just some background here. They've been in the house just under 6 months. The house was a state when they moved in so they agreed a reduced rent if they redecorated. They put down new floors, carpets and repainted. They put down decking and planted new grass. Their lease was for 2 years as they have a new baby and had no plans to leave. The letter was posted through the door late in the evening by an agent of the landlord whilst they were there. I understand that business is business, but this feels like they've been taken advantage of.

I hope they're paid for the work they've done to the house since the lease is being cut short (6 month probation or not, that's taking advantage).

If it was me, and I wasn't paid for the work, I'd be taking the paint back off the walls, taking up the carpets, floors, decking, everything.

Vindictive, absolutely, but so is putting in a notice on Christmas Eve with a new baby, a 2 year lease, and work done on the house - with no explanation.

borderlinemeath

Graces7 wrote: »

Thanks; I posted above before I read this. The 6 month deadline explains more. You need the expert and cool headed advice Threshold will give you. And they will need exact lease terms in writing as all this sounds irregular. But the 6 month timing is unfortunate.

Threshold have been known to tell tenants to illegally overhold on properties. Their "advice" can sometimes cause more trouble than it's worth. PRTB is a better option IMO.

First thing that springs to mind is that it may be a fixed term tenancy as it's for 2 years rather than a standard lease. It's possible that the landlord is trying to pull a fast one due to new legislation and is looking to increase the rent. It's also entirely possible that he is selling up. Clarification on the exact type of lease is needed.

Tigger

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

I agree. But some posters prefer to take a cut-your-nose-off-to-spite-your-face position. I guess they get satisfaction from sticking to the "greedy" landlord.

Nothing to do with greed
The notice arrived on Christmas Eve
People ,rightly or wrongly, look forward for a long time to Christmas

Tigger

daisyday121 wrote: »

Just some background here. They've been in the house just under 6 months. The house was a state when they moved in so they agreed a reduced rent if they redecorated. They put down new floors, carpets and repainted. They put down decking and planted new grass. Their lease was for 2 years as they have a new baby and had no plans to leave. The letter was posted through the door late in the evening by an agent of the landlord whilst they were there. I understand that business is business, but this feels like they've been taken advantage of.

Well if they have a lease that's different
Afaik needing to sell or use the house for family is a reason to break a part 4 tenancy but not a lease
Tell her to ring threshold when they come back

antoinolachtnai

If they have a two year lease then the landlord is out of luck. He is going to have to wait or make a settlement.

Tigger

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

If they have a two year lease then the landlord is out of luck. He is going to have to wait or make a settlement.

And he will have a part 4 tenancy on his hands and will have to make a legal decleration on the reason for termination in 18months time
However I feel that she should look to move once the lease is over (maybe before) as he's clearly a clown

Graham

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

If they have a two year lease then the landlord is out of luck. He is going to have to wait or make a settlement.

It's not unheard of for a fixed term lease to include a break clause specifically to allow the landlord to sell the property.

The Randy Riverbeast

If she is in a lease then he might not be able to end the tenancy. Part 4 allows you to end it when selling but leases tend to be passed to the new LL. In my case it was some viewings and then business as usual. They did let me end the lease early though as the new LL wanted to redecorate. Its possible the lease mentions ending the tenancy but Im not sure if it would be legal or not.

Meeoow

Very foolish putting money into a rented house. No way I'd put down new floors and carpet in someone else's house.

Graham

The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »

If she is in a lease then he might not be able to end the tenancy. Part 4 allows you to end it when selling but leases tend to be passed to the new LL. In my case it was some viewings and then business as usual. They did let me end the lease early though as the new LL wanted to redecorate. Its possible the lease mentions ending the tenancy but Im not sure if it would be legal or not.

As long as it meets the part 4 requirements why would it not be legal to include a clause to break the lease. I've seen the selling-up clause in quite a few leases.

circular flexing

Graham wrote: »

As long as it meets the part 4 requirements why would it not be legal to include a clause to break the lease. I've seen the selling-up clause in quite a few leases.

Just becuase it's in a lease does not mean it's legal.

The PRTB are a bit vague as to whether break clauses can apply to fixed term leases. The RTA seems to indicate that fixed term tenancies can only be terminated if either landlord/tenant are in breach of obligations or if the landlord refuses a sublet. Their site is down but here's the cached page

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:sQcKPPk4l8MJ:www.prtb.ie/dispute-resolution/disputes/terminating-a-fixed-term-tenancy+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

Graham

circular flexing wrote: »

Just becuase it's in a lease does not mean it's legal.

The PRTB are a bit vague as to whether break clauses can apply to fixed term leases. The RTA seems to indicate that fixed term tenancies can only be terminated if either landlord/tenant are in breach of obligations or if the landlord refuses a sublet. Their site is down but here's the cached page

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:sQcKPPk4l8MJ:www.prtb.ie/dispute-resolution/disputes/terminating-a-fixed-term-tenancy+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

Go back and read my post again then re-read the page you linked too, specifically the section 'break clauses'.

Where a break clause is provided for in a fixed term tenancy agreement,

circular flexing

Graham wrote: »

Go back and read my post again then re-read the page you linked too, specifically the section 'break clauses'.

And read on bit further

the question arises as to whether the landlord or the tenant can rely on this break clause to terminate the tenancy

and then maybe go and read the sections of the Act?

Graham

circular flexing wrote: »

And read on bit further



and then maybe go and read the sections of the Act?

As I already said, once it doesn't attempt to remove/reduce any part 4 rights the tenant has acquired.

athtrasna

Take it to PM guys please. To and fro posting conplicates a thread.

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