2016 Racing etc (Robbie Wade)

rwade1401

I find myself logging into this forum a few times a week as I'm always interested in what's happening in the Tri world back home. One of my goals for 2016 is to get back to enjoying the sport and continue to meet people who share my passion for Triathlon so I thought what better way to stay connected and start a thread going here to join in with the banter!

It can be ask me anything about racing,training,balancing full time work with two young kiddos and racing. Gear questions, race travel. Or just random stuff all together !

Merry Christmas to all,
Robbie

Ceepo

rwade1401 wrote: »

I find myself logging into this forum a few times a week as I'm always interested in what's happening in the Tri world back home. One of my goals for 2016 is to get back to enjoying the sport and continue to meet people who share my passion for Triathlon so I thought what better way to stay connected and start a thread going here to join in with the banter!

It can be ask me anything about racing,training,balancing full time work with two young kiddos and racing. Gear questions, race travel. Or just random stuff all together !

Merry Christmas to all,
Robbie

Hi Robbie.

I'll start the ball rolling with a question. Are you planning to race a full IM in '16. If so where will it be?

rwade1401

The full distance focus is for sure on the cards for 2016, Its been on my mind all of last year and with moving, another kiddo and new position at work I wanted to wait to give it my 100% commitment as my last go was a waste as I wasn't training for the distance and got found out . As for which one I will do first its still up in the air, but I would love to come home and race the new Challenge Galway one!

Ceepo

rwade1401 wrote: »

The full distance focus is for sure on the cards for 2016, Its been on my mind all of last year and with moving, another kiddo and new position at work I wanted to wait to give it my 100% commitment as my last go was a waste as I wasn't training for the distance and got found out . As for which one I will do first its still up in the air, but I would love to come home and race the new Challenge Galway one!

Wasn't expecting you to say Galway tbh. I kinds had you down for IM in the US but I'm sure there is an attraction to coming home to race.
How does the training compare in Col V's Texas.
Have you more or less time to train now since the new job and move?

rwade1401

Well IM Texas would be my first choice but just found out I have a conflict that week! With WTC taking away from of the Pro fields at IM I could do Canada or Vineman in July or Mont Tremblant in Aug. These are the only North America options. But as I said still not 100% on what one yet. I could do anyone European one or even head down to South America.

Training in CO is nicer overall! We are at 5300Ft (1607m) so that takes a bit to get used for the lungs. Riding you can go straight up to over 1000ft and prob even more! Lots of places to ride and very bike friendly. Right now majority of the my riding in indoors as colder that TX. Just back for a run and it was 37 (3 for you) nice clear and sunny day but not the 70+ (22) that it is in TX now. Speaking of running I love it here as we have a trail about a min from the house, its all soft surface and goes on for miles.
Swimming wise I used to swim outdoors year round in TX, but here I'm mostly indoors. I'm closer to the pools (my one at the gym is mile away, other is just over 2mi away) I use so I have less excuse to miss swimming The one I use at the gym is open 24hours so thats handily. Which the kiddos I sometimes have to switch and I've been there at 9 or 10pm so times.

Work wise I still work for same company (Superfeet) who are amazing to work for and I have good flexibility to train for the most part! But with the new position I had to get settled in with new accounts and travelled out of state a few times for my key account. I always try to plan pools to swim at and places to run around where I'm staying. If I drive I'll bring my bike&trainer if I'm got for a few days and got sessions planned. Funny stories for my sales meeting I just took my power tap rear wheel in a wheel bag and used my buddies trainer and his wife's old road bike as it was in his city to bang out 3 bike sessions. Bike was a bit small but did the trick!

Merry Christmas!
RW

Dory Dory

Hello Robbie Wade! I take it you are currently based in Colorado? But previously in Texas....and before that Ireland? What exactly brought you to the US, how many hours a week do you typically train, and do you coach other athletes?

Merry Christmas to you!

Ceepo

rwade1401 wrote: »

Well IM Texas would be my first choice but just found out I have a conflict that week! With WTC taking away from of the Pro fields at IM I could do Canada or Vineman in July or Mont Tremblant in Aug. These are the only North America options. But as I said still not 100% on what one yet. I could do anyone European one or even head down to South America.

Training in CO is nicer overall! We are at 5300Ft (1607m) so that takes a bit to get used for the lungs. Riding you can go straight up to over 1000ft and prob even more! Lots of places to ride and very bike friendly. Right now majority of the my riding in indoors as colder that TX. Just back for a run and it was 37 (3 for you) nice clear and sunny day but not the 70+ (22) that it is in TX now. Speaking of running I love it here as we have a trail about a min from the house, its all soft surface and goes on for miles.
Swimming wise I used to swim outdoors year round in TX, but here I'm mostly indoors. I'm closer to the pools (my one at the gym is mile away, other is just over 2mi away) I use so I have less excuse to miss swimming The one I use at the gym is open 24hours so thats handily. Which the kiddos I sometimes have to switch and I've been there at 9 or 10pm so times.

Work wise I still work for same company (Superfeet) who are amazing to work for and I have good flexibility to train for the most part! But with the new position I had to get settled in with new accounts and travelled out of state a few times for my key account. I always try to plan pools to swim at and places to run around where I'm staying. If I drive I'll bring my bike&trainer if I'm got for a few days and got sessions planned. Funny stories for my sales meeting I just took my power tap rear wheel in a wheel bag and used my buddies trainer and his wife's old road bike as it was in his city to bang out 3 bike sessions. Bike was a bit small but did the trick!

Merry Christmas!
RW

Like the woods in Portlaw only higher so lol.
I'll get back to you over the next few days but I think I hear Santa on the way.
Happy Xmas to yourself, H and the 2 nippers. And if you talking to he family at home tell them I said hello.

rwade1401

Yep currently living in Westminster CO (halfway between Denver/Boulder) I'm originally from Portlaw Co Waterford. The Portlaw woods are the place to try for runners in Waterford.
I went on an Athletic Scholarship to the Loyola University in Chicago (2001) and lived in Chicago for just over 7 years before I moved to Arlington VA (just outside DC) for a few more years. This is where I ended up getting into Triathlons after getting one to much injuries running.

In terms of hours for training, I tend to focus more on the key sessions and build the rest of training around it But I do count hours on the bike as I do trainer work mostly. From my years of being a runner I like to look at overall in miles/distances so as an example for the first 5 weeks of base phase my volume average are roughly swim 18k, bike 7-8 hours, run 30mi. I can break it down in more detail if your interested too, also the majority of my training uploads to strava, if you want to take a look.

I do coach a few people and enjoy it.

Dory Dory

rwade1401 wrote: »

Yep currently living in Westminster CO (halfway between Denver/Boulder) I'm originally from Portlaw Co Waterford. The Portlaw woods are the place to try for runners in Waterford.
I went on an Athletic Scholarship to the Loyola University in Chicago (2001) and lived in Chicago for just over 7 years before I moved to Arlington VA (just outside DC) for a few more years. This is where I ended up getting into Triathlons after getting one to much injuries running.

In terms of hours for training, I tend to focus more on the key sessions and build the rest of training around it But I do count hours on the bike as I do trainer work mostly. From my years of being a runner I like to look at overall in miles/distances so as an example for the first 5 weeks of base phase my volume average are roughly swim 18k, bike 7-8 hours, run 30mi. I can break it down in more detail if your interested too, also the majority of my training uploads to strava, if you want to take a look.

I do coach a few people and enjoy it.

I was born in DC and raised in Alexandria, VA - just next door to Arlington! I'm sure you and I have some of the same stomping grounds in that area. Where did you do most of your swimming while there?

Am I mistaken or is that a healthy bit of swimming you do for the first 5 weeks of base phase training when compared to the bike and run volume?

bopperr

Hey Robbie, besides having an incredible understanding partner what are your top tips for training with such a young family?

rwade1401

Well I spend my most of my early swimming time drowning in the old Washington & Lee pool, before getting to enjoy the new for a year or two before I left. The best decision I made was to join John Flanagan's masters program a few months into starting swimming, that would swim at the 50m Hains point in the summer and Tuckahoe in the winter. I went from 31min 1500 swim to I think 23min ish before I moved. He is also one of the best top High school coach in the country and has had kids go over to race in Ireland.
Do you ever go to The Fourcourts in Arlington? The best Irish pub I've ever been in, over here.

rwade1401

Yes its important to have someone who understands why your doing all the training and supports you. But you have to respect their time too and allow for what they like to do. I will see what races/places my wife would like to go and we spend a extra day if we can there. I don't mind getting in a session late or early if it means I get to spend time doing something my wife likes or allowing her to get workout in. I've put the kiddos in the BOB (baby jogger) and let he have her time. On the other side she had put them in the bike trailer and cycled with me while I ran. Always get in a good run when we do this as she pushes me. LOL More focus on them allows for them to put up with your madness!

With the kids I have a 2.5 yr 1/2 and 14month two boys, so thankfully just over the less sleep part!
First off, I spend more time on the trainer (a) safer, (b) less time to get ready and flats are not an issue (c) timing, I can get on when its early or at night (d) can control the session better with power # and effort. (e) kids can hang out down in the basement with me.

I think the key as well is you have to be accept that you will sometimes have to adapt and be ready to switch and not be mad or stressed about it, last week one of the boys were sick so I was home with him all day. I ended up just doing swim late that night and pushed the bike to the next morning. I also try to be very efficient as possible with my time. for example in and out of the shower/gym in a few mins. I sometimes will do run/swim combo or swim/run combo right after each other. Whichever one is the focus session of the day will be first, then other will be just recovery. I tend to train more solo since I've have the kids as I try to cut out driving to a workout or waiting for someone and "hanging around". But I do swim with a group 3 days a week 5mins away from home.

Dory Dory

rwade1401 wrote: »

Well I spend my most of my early swimming time drowning in the old Washington & Lee pool, before getting to enjoy the new for a year or two before I left. The best decision I made was to join John Flanagan's masters program a few months into starting swimming, that would swim at the 50m Hains point in the summer and Tuckahoe in the winter. I went from 31min 1500 swim to I think 23min ish before I moved. He is also one of the best top High school coach in the country and has had kids go over to race in Ireland.
Do you ever go to The Fourcourts in Arlington? The best Irish pub I've ever been in, over here.

Nope, never been to Fourcourts in Arlington, but I knew the inside of the Fish Market in Old Town pretty well!

And John Flanagan? Hmmm....if it's the same John Flanagan who used to coach with former Olympic swimming coach Stan Tinkham at NVAC in Arlington, then he coached me as well. How old would you say your John Flanagan is? I started swimming with Stan when I was in high school, then John entered the scene and took over the club when Stan retired. And, we swam at Hains Point in the summer too. It must be the same John Flanagan. Small world if it is!

rwade1401

Yes has to be the same John. He is a swim legend around that parts! I would think he is in his 60s? But very young and fit looking. Runs a tight ship.

I would go to Old Town sometimes as I worked for Pacers on King St. Well if you ever go to The Fourcourts ask for Shane ( a Mayo man) or Dave (Limerick man) and they will look after you like no other.

Dory Dory

rwade1401 wrote: »

Yes has to be the same John. He is a swim legend around that parts! I would think he is in his 60s? But very young and fit looking. Runs a tight ship.

I would go to Old Town sometimes as I worked for Pacers on King St. Well if you ever go to The Fourcourts ask for Shane ( a Mayo man) or Dave (Limerick man) and they will look after you like no other.

Good lord, I know Pacers well! And yes, that is no doubt the same John Flanagan. I remember he would coach us in the morning before school (5 to 6:30), then he'd hop in the pool and swim with the Masters team when we youngins were done. Nice guy.

And thanks for the Fourcourts tip!

Merry Christmas.

pgibbo

Happy New Year Robbie and all the best for 2016.

Are you self coached? Having a family, working full time and training those hours must be tough. Do you still have the same grá for the sport or did your enjoyment wane a little recently?

You mentioned key sessions earlier. I know it depends on the time of year, etc but what would be your key sessions that you build your week around?

What do you see as being the biggest difference in your approach for half and full distance races?

Thanks for posting.

P.

peter kern

hi robbie
i have 3 questions
1 what do you think are your limiters on the bike and how are you working on it
i assume you are still with dave,as for swimming you have made v good improvements in your swimming in the last few years ( iam not sure if tim is doing your swimprogramm or dave but i guess it would not be that different anyways) what do you think are the pros and cons of their swim approach and how did it help you ?

what sponsorship do you get ( ie do you get your QR for free etc)

ups and i have another one whats your thinking racing as pro or age grouper given that you are working full time
what was your pro and con decisons for pro or ager?

cheers

rwade1401

Happy New year lads! If ok I'll answer both in this post and can add if you want to focus on anything.
Just on cup of tea #2 right before heading out the door for a run! Barry's is the choice is your wondering. Stocked up after Christmas.

Greats questions:
Yes I'm self coached as I did work with a coach for a few months last year and just didn't workout for a number of reasons. The trouble is I've been self coached since college (10years +) and I find with my work schedule and the way I know my body its for the best. I would enjoy having a coach that I could see a few times at key sessions. I'll touch on my 2016 system in few.

To be honest yes my enjoyment did go for a while, it started actually Sept 2014 when I went to IM Chattanooga (Side note, anyone interested in know details for the 70.3 worlds ask away as I've raced there a few times)
Anyway, I put in a great build for that race and got a knee issue about 2 weeks out before which hurt when I cycled and would be there for start of runs. So went there on a wing and pray, I always say in there is any doubt don't race and I stupidly did and about 25 miles or so into the bike I was in mad pain and just rolled home. I was so pissed off I was ready to sell the bike or even throw it in the river and just head back to running. We were 2 months away from baby # 2 and I was not in a good mindset. That carried over for a few months and I didn't want to touch the bike. Actually was looking at my training from last year at this time and I only rode 2 times 60mins and this week past was 6 sessions.
That old saying about building a good base in the winter holds true as I didn't last year and it hurt both my bike and my run for the whole session. I was coming off the bike with no energy for the run and best I could do was a 1:17 I think.


But I have to say the hungry is back real strong this year, it hasn't been this strong since I was in college and came back from a poor season and ended up qualifying for nationals in cross country as an Individual.
As for key sessions I build the week around
1- Solid swim Monday, I like to kick the week off with a good swim set
2- Tue run session i.e. short reps (which will become a hard brick as I progress)
3- EZ Wed but I might hit all 3 , important to recover and effort is very light
4- Thur Hard bike session, this will be my key day to hit the bike hard
Sat- hard swim and then bike session in PM, longer efforts
Sun Long Run progression on the pace , Important session

As for transition to full from half, volume on longer sessions will be key, more bigger days focus and patiences most important.


As you problem guessed I'm not longer working with David (never worked with Tim but yes they use most of the same stuff. I think the pros is a triathlon focused swim program and in terms of one of the key takeaways that I 100% agree is you need to be ready to get out fast at the start of the PRO race and the pace is more controlled after about 200-300m. But unless you have that high in speed at the start your off the back and out of contact from the gun. This something I never looked at or though about but I do now.
For the cons its the system is not for everyone and I think coaches sometimes take that approach and have blinkers on. What works for one doesn't always work for everyone. Also volume was very low for me and I don't swim a hell of a lot of distance in the water before. I found I was lacking a bit in the last 400m of 70.3 when I was working with him. Also some of their guys got found out a few times in the water this year. I'll let you do your homework on way.

For me improvement has come with focus on getting in the pool, swimming with people that are faster than me 1-2 times a week. I'm always learning and very raw as a swimming, just discovered how to better catch and pull the last 2 weeks and swim a 1k TT on Sat couple sessions faster that my best and without the same dead/sore feeling. But most important thing was I learned to LOVE swimming and not see it as a need to do thing.

As for the bike, pretty simple here on my limiters and thankfully straight forward to fix.
1- Never really got a good bike fit, I worked with the great man Ivan O Gorman a couple times and dialed in. I also never looked at Aero and how to carry stuff on the bike etc.
2- Ride time, In the last few years I've got away with doing less on the bike and not enough. This is not going to be the case for 2016. I rode 2:09 last yr in Galveston and had only 1 ride of 90k in the legs before it, that was an easy ride too. So I wasn't ready for that effort. But found it on the day.
3- Getting out in a better position from the swim, its easier to ride fast in a group spaced 12m apart that it is to ride solo. Might be mostly mental but def a couple mins different.
4-On my best days on the bike I know I can bike with the majority of guys in the PRO field


On sponsorship, I'll say I get looked after. Its easy to get free stuff as a pro and if your respectful and add value to companies they look after you. But as all pro wan,t money is what help the most. That mostly comes from incentives in the contacts and other ways.
Just to make an example up, finish 3 or 5 at a 70.3 or IM and get $$$ from your sponsorships. Most pro's that know the business might make more for incentives that prize money. I have solid deals with cobb,OR and for 2016 have chosen to mostly promote Superfeet (who I work for) as we are 100% employee owned and I get way too well looked after not to give back. Also I would love to work with my Irish companies to be honest.

As for the decision to go PRO, at the time I should have waiting another year and focused on my swim and racing skills in Triathlon. However, I felt I belonged there and within a one or so I qualified for the 70.3 worlds and did it the following year also. So proved my choice was aright and that first year of questioning it.
Now I feel I would be cheating myself to race AG, but your right I prob could with a full-time jobs and kiddos etc I could justify it. But I want to race the best and know I can beat guys when I have my good days, I've beat guys like Crowie, Luke bell and many 70.3/IM champs on days that I've put out solid races. But the best is still yet to come and thats what keeps me coming back to race.

Right off to Run,
PS had to have another cuppa to finish this.

peter kern

great answers thanks !!!!
good luck for 2016

zico10

For what distance did you get your athletic scholarship?

What are you running pbs for 5k, 10k HM? If you've any impressive pbs from other distances, then please list them. How do the first three compare to your pbs for similar distances you've ran in triathlon races? Are these differences what you would have expected? Or under different circumstances (I don't mean taking it easy on the bike) could you have gotten closer to your pbs?

rwade1401

I like most Irish lads got the scholarship for cross country and then obviously raced more indoor and outdoor track when I came over.
PB's
14:26 5k
24:11 (8k xc)
30:06 10k
67:47 HM
2:24 M

Off the bike I've run 31:30 10k, in terms of 5k I can't recall doing a legit 5k OTB but did a 14:22 3miler (so around 15:00) I had to look it up to remind me.


In 70.3 I've gone 1:12/1:13 off the bike a few times. This year the goal is to do it off a 2:05-07 bike then I can do some damage.

What is interesting is the way I've adapted my run training (not doing much stuff at mile or 5k pace and focusing on HM pace for most of my harder workouts and bricks ) so I'm pretty much going to run just as fast coming off a hard bike than I can fresh in an open 10k or HM.

In last few years I don't try to kill the effort unless its race day As if need to be ready for the next session. For example last week I did 6 x 2k @ 3:30-3:20 k pace which is 70.3 goal pace with 1min between rest. I could have done them at 3:15-10 pace but I would been carrying that effort into my bike session that evening.

peter kern

i can do this for him i can write for **** but splits stay in my head and the 67 i rembered with out looking at the website
http://www.robbiewadetriathlete.com/about
Personal Records

5K: 14:26
10k: 30:06
13.1: 67:47
26.2: 2:24:14




robbie once run as fast as craig alexander in a 70.3 race ( i think he did 1.12 ;high that day
and off the bike thats the fastest irish half marathon time.
and the only traithlete that i can think of that has a better half standalone in Ireland than robbie is bryan campel ( he has a 66 i believe.

rwade1401

Thanks Peter!

So an interesting topic here so I do spend all this tread talking about myself. JK!!

How does one run the best off the bike in triathlon. The goal is to run as close to your open best as possible right?

My thoughts:
1- Know and set a realistic goal and work with it (I'll dive in a little more on that, see #4)
2- Run of the bike at that pace 1-2 times a week. But it doesn't have to be mad volume.
3-Long runs are key and progression on them is great.
4- Do sometime little that you can achieve them repeat and build until your hit what you need (this is something I picked up for a great coach, was 5 time US champ in 5000m and his son is currently one of the best) for example you want to run 4:00km off the bike for 10k. first week you might do 4-5 x 1k @ 4:00 with 2-3mins jog. something that you can manage and not kill yourself with. then it progresses to 6,8,10 and then maybe move to 2k's or shorten the rest. until you reach 2 x5k with 5min jog or so. So find the pace them build the distance.
5-Maybe the most important, don't leave your running legs in your bike shoes.


Anyone good some other thoughts on it?

Dory Dory

You mentioned in an earlier post that you use a trainer a good bit for the bike. How about the treadmill? Do you use that as a tool in your arsenal of training weapons? Or is it merely an unsavory alternative to outdoor running?

Do you typically take a rest day? I ask this because I notice you've not posted any training between Thursday and Saturday above.

Do you spend time each week on strength and core work? Flexibility? What are your feelings on strength/core/flexibility?

And your #4 below regarding run pace off the bike (achieve, repeat, build without killing yourself) - a training structure I've just been introduced to myself. Training plan has me currently doing sets of 800s on the track at HIM pace (800 at HIM pace, 200 easy, repeat ) - the idea is to drill this pace into my body so it becomes automatic off the bike. Again, this is new to me and I've only done this session 3 times now, but I find being disciplined and not taking off like a hare can be a challenge in itself. However, I imagine as the HIM intervals increase (in number and distance), the challenge to slow down will decrease.

Any chance you'll open your own training log on boards?

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Some solid run advice, could not agree more with point 3, in particular building progression into the long run session.

rwade1401

In terms of days off I don't build them into my training but allow for them naturally, this is not for everyone I would say. But works for my overall balance approach. If I feel **** and have an easy day planned I'm just take the day off, or if I have a travel day and its close to a race or after a block of hard training again I'll rest.

Treadmill I'll use sometimes, icy/snow or travel. I think it has its benefits for sure but I personally love running outside. For core etc, I do a few small routines that I've found the best of the year. Its typically after easy sessions or on days when I have more time. I don't stretch anymore really after running. I would do lots the years I was running and funny I find my body is better off without it. I just start my runs slower and cool down easier.

Yes your approach is good, sounds like you got some variations coming up which is good, as I find once the body adapts its time to build the mix it up again. like less rest or more reps or doing them up hills. Stuff like that.

As for training I won't make any promises. But as long as I can do it easy and quick it might be good.

zico10

rwade1401 wrote: »

PB's
14:26 5k
24:11 (8k xc)
30:06 10k
67:47 HM
2:24 M

Off the bike I've run 31:30 10k, in terms of 5k I can't recall doing a legit 5k OTB but did a 14:22 3miler (so around 15:00) I had to look it up to remind me.


In 70.3 I've gone 1:12/1:13 off the bike a few times. This year the goal is to do it off a 2:05-07 bike then I can do some damage.

There's not too many people who can run those times, but do you think the differences between standalone PBs and the times someone can run off the bike should be similar to yours? For example, should I be within 34 seconds of my 5k PB in a sprint? 1:24 of my 10k PB in an Olympic? etc.

rwade1401 wrote: »

Anyone good some other thoughts on it?

I've some thoughts, but I'm also very conscious of who I'm talking to. Given that, there'll probably be a lot more questions in this post than 'thoughts' per se.

1- Know and set a realistic goal and work with it (I'll dive in a little more on that, see #4)

My main target for the last two years has been Ironman, more than likely this will also be the case this year. Goal time for both marathons has been sub 3. I missed out on goal run time in both races, but I never had any problem running sub 3 pace off the bike in training. In fact I'd often run significantly faster than this, just on the assumption that if I did this, sub 3 pace would be easier on the day. In your opinion was this the wrong approach? Should I have stuck rigidly to my goal race pace and no faster?

Also while Ironman might be the ultimate goal, there'll be shorter races in the build up where I will be running a lot faster than 4:15/km. Is there any need to train for running this pace off the bike?

2- Run of the bike at that pace 1-2 times a week. But it doesn't have to be mad volume.

I once trained like this for a 70.3. Any day I didn't have another run scheduled, I'd do a short run off the bike at goal race pace. At the time, I thought I was being smart, but I've misgivings about it now. I'll go into these in point 4.

3-Long runs are key and progression on them is great.

I'd be in full agreement on this. But I'd be looking at it from the point of view of a marathon. Let's say your goal race is an Olmpic, how long does your long run need to be? I think for most people who have been in triathlon even a short while, it shouldn't be too difficult progressing up to a 10k run. Forgive me if I'm taking this up wrongly.

4- Do sometime little that you can achieve them repeat and build until your hit what you need (this is something I picked up for a great coach, was 5 time US champ in 5000m and his son is currently one of the best) for example you want to run 4:00km off the bike for 10k. first week you might do 4-5 x 1k @ 4:00 with 2-3mins jog. something that you can manage and not kill yourself with. then it progresses to 6,8,10 and then maybe move to 2k's or shorten the rest. until you reach 2 x5k with 5min jog or so. So find the pace them build the distance.

This very much has the look of an interval session. Forgive my ignorance, but is that what it is intended to be? Or is it supposed to take the place of an interval session? Is it the fastest you'd recommend a triathlete runs in training?
Going back to my second point and the runs I'd do off the bike. During that training block, I'd do intervals at mile pace and 5k pace. From marathon training, I strongly believe it's important to run faster than your planned race pace at certain points in your training. I was very happy with one marathon I ran, where this was an important part of the plan I followed. I don't think I've ever had any spectacular failures in a race, when I prepared like this, so it's a hard mindset to let go of.
Getting back to running off the bike, I think goal race pace should be taxing. If it not, then it's too easy. Therefore it should be taxing in training too. After a tough cycle, perhaps it might be better to recover for run sessions later in the week, rather than going out for a taxing run at race pace, no matter how short.
On the other hand, maybe it's the intervals I shouldn't have been doing.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

My original take on the RW suggested progression run was based around a progressively paced run, as in starting slower and finishing faster through the run, rather than progressive in distance (which is what i am reading from the post above unless i took Zico up wrong?).
Progression runs still have a place in shorter runs and its a great workout, not to mention a good way for the athlete to learn more about how their body responds at varying intensities within a session.

rwade1401

Some solid questions and input! I'm replying on the phone as I'm in Salt Lake City for Trade Show for work and my computer keeps dropping Internet at the hotel. So sorry if i miss anything on the reply and typo etc. Just ask again if I did.

Firstly, I'd point out not every race horse needs the same work! Right I would do a SWOT analysis on yourself. I can help and go into detail if you like.
In terms of standalone v OTB I would say it's more of a % based formula to get a idea of what is possible. I feel I've seen a chart somewhere online. Let me look for it and link it. But again there is many factors that come to play in this also.
Years running, what type of athlete you are (speed based/diesel based etc)

With your target, you would agree that IM marathon pace is easy for us all to run anytime, even drunk! (should be) but as you know well it's a different story after 112mi and I found that out too. I would look at it overall (back to the SWOT test) without knowing background etc I won't comment but if you like you can email.

So with the 1-2 runs off the bike, I personally would be running 2-3 more times that week. Long run for sure and a key sessions and recovery run. The goal is to teach the body the pace and not tax it too much with the shorter runs.

As with long run, I'm saying progression as pace. Ideally for 10k, I would think most people would be ok with 8-10mi or so but again it's very case by case. My wife would probably only run 6 if she training for one and but fine. But again back to what is the overall goal and what you have to work with.

As for #4 I just made up some random times for the example that wasn't out of the world of what someone could do. I won't really call this an interval session( side note, without going into it back what is an interval session, it can mean so many things when you ask diff people) I look at stuff in terms of pace/current fitness
So a session in the example would be at goal race pace off the bike. The reason I personally sometimes split it up into ks or 2ks is that it's not too taxing on the body and it's something you can build off. Running 4-6miles at 70.3 pace off a hard bike can do more harm that good. But I would do that type of session but would be during a specific time and when I'm ready etc.
With your case, I agree with you faster that race pace is important, my maybe not mile pace of your training for IM. I would think the approach of more reps, less rest and that 10k pace of fast enough with maybe last few at 5k pace.
But again it comes back to what works for you and somethings it takes trying something new or taking it over with some coaches/athletes that have had success. I was lucky to talk with Crowe and few times and it helped me greatly with my process and practices afterwards.

Great questions and hope that answers and better explains my process and thoughts.

pgibbo

This failed to post last night for me so throwing it up again.

I was thinking about this while out on my run just now - pi$$ing down and windy so I was glad I read zicos post before I went.

One of the things that kept coming to me, and Robbie mentions it, is that it all depends on where an athlete is in their development. It's impossible to paint a one size fits all model.

A colleague of mine is an ex-swimmer. All he needs is 3 weeks consistent swimming and he's out in the top 10 in any tri in the country. I'm guessing that an athlete of Robbies ability doesn't need to do next or near the run volume that say KT would need to do to run 1:17 or better off the bike. That's purely down to his background and pedigree as a runner. For an athlete of Robbies ability there's probably no ned for the faster paced intervals. But for someone like me that can make gains in their run times then there's most likely gains from them once they're done appropriately and not negatively impacting on other key sessions. I guess it comes down to identifying where the most gains can be made and then attacking them realistically and appropriately.

I love the idea of a SWOT analysis for an athlete. :cool:

peter kern

zico10 wrote: »

There's not too many people who can run those times, but do you think the differences between standalone PBs and the times someone can run off the bike should be similar to yours? For example, should I be within 34 seconds of my 5k PB in a sprint? 1:24 of my 10k PB in an Olympic? etc.

this is the conundrum of the sport but certainly elite Itu would be able to run around 60-90 sec slower of standalone time
but of course this depends on many factors.
and its a bit speed vs strenght
for most ager to do this they want to be capable to run a close to even split 21 k in a marthon. if they cant do this usually thats as fair sign that they will be more like 2 and plus min slower than they standalone time .
liam doalns 10 k standalone 10 k of the bike and 21k off the bike k pace would have been almost identical

brain campele for instance awsome runner still awsome runner of the bike till 10 k but both his marthon time 2,28ish and run of the bikes in 70.3 1.17 is not that great and i think in an IM he did 3.10 h

of course this could also mean he did not cycle enough
so it really depends on many thinks guys like lothat leder could do an ironman and 2 weeks later win german oly champs.
van lierde i think was european champ over oly in the same year he did 7.50

guys like bracht and al sultan are were not really competive over the oly distnace anymore

factors
slowtwitch fastwitch compositon
strenght vs speed
bike training swim training
nutrition
mental resiliance
abilty to stay focused
training volume
training overall
biomechanics
technique
injuries
pacing
sleep
stress levels
climate conditons
etc
ie what iam trying to say dont focus to much on the slow run pace
or better listen to your own advice inthe swim thread where you said not to pick out one thing ;-)
and of course the run pace in training also dpends on your training the days before and the training afterwards.
ie the higher the overall volume the slower the long run has or will be.