Minimum Size For Apartments Reduced

Nika Bolokov

Some apartment sizes reduced by 27%

Dual aspect requirement removed.

http://www.thejournal.ie/apartments-built-ireland-changing-new-2514979-Dec2015/

Gumbo

Nika Bolokov wrote: »

Some apartment sizes reduced by 27%

Dual aspect requirement removed.

http://www.thejournal.ie/apartments-built-ireland-changing-new-2514979-Dec2015/

There was a consultation process about this months ago where they invited submissions. Many people actually agreed that smaller units would be feasible within the city centre limits.

Me, I'm in the fence.

0ph0rce0

Smaller units and a higher price.

borderlinemeath

I've been in tiny apartments in both the States and in Germany. Proper studio apartments, but the difference is that the buildings had communal laundry rooms and storage facilities, not likely to ever happen in Ireland though.

Smaller apartments are grand for single person living if that is what you wanted, but even a couple would struggle with storage space.

flutered

there should be a maximum limit on the number of them

Cilar

Most people would rather live alone than renting a room in a shared house/apt. Studio apt are very common in western Europe for students / graduate as opposed to force them share accomodation.

syklops

Shame they didn't include requirements for storage in the guidelines. Our place is pretty small, but the lack of storage really makes it a pain. We don't even have somewhere to put the hoover. Ive lived in a studio apartment in Eastern Europe, but included in the price was a small room in the basement where we could store things like suitcases and tools and anything else.

Do the guidelines still require the rooms to have washing machines, but don't require them to have any means to dry the clothes?

Idbatterim

Well they aren't going to do anything about build costs... It's still bigger than minimum sizes in the uk for example. What do these idiots expect, they won't build up and they won't reduce build costs. So this is one area that made sense to make a move on. What's ideal? The outrageous costs of a 1 bed currently, the kips that are being let out, having to share into your 30's? If you don't want a smaller unit, choose from one of the options currently available. No one has a gun to anyone's head, more choice can only be a good thing in my opinion...

riclad

it,ll reduce the cost of building,
i bet it,ll make no difference to the sale price,
Builders know how to build apartments ,
there,s no need to have windows in every side ,or every wall .
AS long as there s large windows on one or 2 walls ,
depending on the layout of the building .
my friend lives in a apartment block,
There,s a outside building with 10 washing ,machines , and dryers in it for
any resident to use .
She has plenty of storage space in her 1bed apartment .
We need more units built for single people ,
the modern trend is more people living alone .
The price is decided by market forces , demand and the lending policy of the banks .
housing density rules also effect house prices .

Idbatterim

it,ll reduce the cost of building,
i bet it,ll make no difference to the sale price,

You would hope it would reduce the sale price, but it may not. But it should increase supply, which should help keep inflation down, because at the moment, there is nowhere near enough housing being built in Dublin.

In terms of being a developer, I can see exactly where they are coming from, if you are making virtually nothing or very little on a development, why would you bother building now?

The regulations were OTT here, those drawing them up sure as hell arent on the kind of money where they need to worry about living in a studio or with others etc!

khamilto

If a 1bed costs €300,000 and a 2bed €375.000, I would suggest that as studios come on stream they will nudge toward 1bed prices, 1beds will nudge toward 2beds, and all the way up.

Lest we forget, it isn't that supply is less than demand: it's that there is no supply and about 10 years worth of demand (Dublin has been running at an undersupply since at least the mid 2005's).

Build them big and build them tall, standards exist for a reason and I had hoped that we as a nation had learned our lesson from abandoning standards because of seemingly exigent circumstances.

@Cilar: Most people would prefer to live in a penthouse than in a studio apartment. I am as unsure about what relevance that has to this thread as I am about your statement. Should we change the guidelines so that only penthouses (i.e. terraced bungalows) are built?

MarkAnthony

The sizes listed are plenty tbh. No one is forcing anyone to buy an apartment of X size. There are plenty of affordable houses within 30 minutes or so commute of the CC.

Eric Cartman

insulation requirements should have been priority 1. Its the biggest issue in apartments in Ireland. You should be able to drop a mug on wooden floors and nobody be able to hear a thing.

riclad

Sound and heat insulation standards are very important ,
when you are living close to others in apartments .
The present system of self inspection by builders is not working,
someone just signs a form this building is up to standard,
as per the architects plan .
there should be random checks by inspectors when apartments are being built.
IS the insulation up to standard ,are fire doors installed properly .
IS the building being built as in the plans sent to the council .

it s quite possible to build high density apartments up to 10 storeys ,
to a high standard ,
we need more building inspectors in dublin ,
more funding for councils ,
most new buildings are never inspected until a problem is found .
The good thing they have increased the size of 2 bed units ,
and they want a mixture of 1-2 bed units in a building .
Whats the difference between a 1 bed studio vs a 1bed apartment .
Is a studio part of a house that has its own bathroom and entrance ?

khamilto

MarkAnthony wrote: »

The sizes listed are plenty tbh. No one is forcing anyone to buy an apartment of X size. There are plenty of affordable houses within 30 minutes or so commute of the CC.

Can you find a plan online for a 40sqm studio apartment with more storage than a double wardrobe and perhaps (if lucky), one small general purpose cupboard?

One that has a small room for a boiler/washer dryer, so you don't have to listen to a spin cycle from a maximum of about 15 feet away? One that has somewhere for a mop, a hoover, an empty suitcase, perhaps a few cardboard boxes of bric a brac? How about a small artificial christmas tree and some rudimentary decorations? How do you feel about old keepsakes and memoribilia because if you like them a studio isn't for you?

Etc.

Also, would love to see all these affordable houses within a 30minute commute. Apartments in the city centre look relatively good value even compared to places like Firhouse or the nicer areas of Tallaght - and they are both 60-75mins commute.

caviardreams

In fairness - the requirement of 90m for a 2 bed was very high. A well-laid out 2 bed of between 68-75 can work very well (good size store cupboards, good proportions etc.), and is arguably the equivalent of up to a 80m house due to layout efficiencies/no stairs etc. There are lots of small 2 bed terrace/townhouses in Dublin around the 56-65m size and nobody ever says they are unfit for living in/shoeboxes etc.

MarkAnthony

khamilto wrote: »

Can you find a plan online for a 40sqm studio apartment with more storage than a double wardrobe and perhaps (if lucky), one small general purpose cupboard?

One that has a small room for a boiler/washer dryer, so you don't have to listen to a spin cycle from a maximum of about 15 feet away? One that has somewhere for a mop, a hoover, an empty suitcase, perhaps a few cardboard boxes of bric a brac? How about a small artificial christmas tree and some rudimentary decorations? How do you feel about old keepsakes and memoribilia because if you like them a studio isn't for you?

Etc.

Also, would love to see all these affordable houses within a 30minute commute. Apartments in the city centre look relatively good value even compared to places like Firhouse or the nicer areas of Tallaght - and they are both 60-75mins commute.

44Sqm 2 bedroom apartment - perfectly livable. Although I do think 60sq m would be a more sensible limit. 75Sqm is plenty.

45Sqm in a one bed is again plenty, especially with decent insulation. Example here. A bit pokey but one one is forcing people into buying cheaper end apartments in or very close to the CC.

111Sqm 3 bedroom terrace - less than 30 mins from Pearse, door to door. 220K - just under 200K mortgage required from a FTB, meaning a couple would need to be on just under 60K to afford it which is below the industry average wage for the pair of them.

khamilto

MarkAnthony wrote: »

44Sqm 2 bedroom apartment - perfectly livable. Although I do think 60sq m would be a more sensible limit. 75Sqm is plenty.

How can you say it is perfectly livable when it only has pictures of one room, with no storage and a kitchen that quite genuinely only appears to barely fit one person standing in it?

45Sqm in a one bed is again plenty, especially with decent insulation. Example here. A bit pokey but one one is forcing people into buying cheaper end apartments in or very close to the CC.

No storage.

111Sqm 3 bedroom terrace - less than 30 mins from Pearse, door to door. 220K - just under 200K mortgage required from a FTB, meaning a couple would need to be on just under 60K to afford it which is below the industry average wage for the pair of them.

So, by plenty, you mean in Kilbarrack which is an area the vast majority of Dublin would rather not live in?
That's not disingenuous at all.


Still waiting for evidence of a 40sqm studio that has storage space sufficient for one person!

athtrasna

Eric Cartman wrote: »

insulation requirements should have been priority 1. Its the biggest issue in apartments in Ireland. You should be able to drop a mug on wooden floors and nobody be able to hear a thing.

You should be able to force people to abide by the contracts they sign that say no wooden floors

I think the dual aspect thing is as big if not a bigger thing than apartment size. I will watch to see how developers seek to benefit from that one.

MarkAnthony

khamilto wrote: »

How can you say it is perfectly livable when it only has pictures of one room, with no storage and a kitchen that quite genuinely only appears to barely fit one person standing in it?


No storage.

Because I lived in the complex for over a decade and it took me 2 full transits (not counting furniture as I left that to rent the place out) to move all my and the wife's crap!

khamilto wrote: »

So, by plenty, you mean in Kilbarrack which is an area the vast majority of Dublin would rather not live in?
That's not disingenuous at all.

Again somewhere I moved to after asking people who actually live in the area. Nothing wrong with the Kilbarrack/Raheny area in fact go half a mile in pretty much any direction and it's very expensive. There are plenty of areas within Dublin that have the same issue - snobbery about the area when actually they're grand. That's focusing people into smaller and smaller areas of South Dublin which means you, rightly, pay more.

On that though the highest crime rates are D1 where you want a load of these massive flats built?

khamilto wrote: »

Still waiting for evidence of a 40sqm studio that has storage space sufficient for one person!

See above. I'd not live in a studio as I don't consider it a very nice way to live. I prefer the kitchen separate from the sleeping area. Plenty of storage in a 40Sqm 1 bed as above, can't see why there would be a problem in a studio.

MarkAnthony

athtrasna wrote: »

You should be able to force people to abide by the contracts they sign that say no wooden floors

I think the dual aspect thing is as big if not a bigger thing than apartment size. I will watch to see how developers seek to benefit from that one.

Dual aspect I'd imagine was a massive issue no? Surely it would be very limiting in terms of building size as you could only have 4 units to a floor or some very odd long arrangement with windows either end?

Spanish Eyes

The US and Continental way is good. Small enough floor space, small kitchens, BUT a cave or cellar that is lockable in the garage/basement for all the bulky stuff that everyone accumulates. Of course a communal laundry/drying area would be the dogs blx aswell, but you never know!

Good sound insulation is a must too.

I've lived in small places, alone admittedly, and far preferred that to sharing when I got a bit ahem, more mature!

I do hope the guidelines will be tweaked to include mandatory storage for bikes etc. and proper insulation. That would be a big improvement.

syklops

Ross O'Carroll-Kelly is popping the champagne corks tonight. He said as a result of the changes in the guidelines, the 44 apartments he is selling in Carrickmines is now 88 apartments.

The regulations were OTT here, those drawing them up sure as hell arent on the kind of money where they need to worry about living in a studio or with others etc!

The regulations were way over the top, and its a common problem in Ireland that the people drawing up guidelines or rules will never need to follow them and never be impacted by them.

I heard Minister Kelly on Pat Kenny on Monday and Pat asked him about guidelines around storage and his response was, and Im paraphrasing, "That would be up to the developers". I nearly threw the radio out the window. If you're going to have guidelines, have them. Dont leave important things to guess work or, as we see regularly, cute hoorism. As I said previously in this thread, in my place, we dont have a place for the hoover. It wont fit in the cupboard in the hall, so it lives behind the couch. For reference our apartment is about 50 sq metres, so not impacted by the change, but still a bit on the small side. I just found an ad for a clone of our apartment across the way from us on daft. Asking price is 255k. Its slightly larger in that it has 2 double rooms. There is a single bed in our second bedroom and you could not possibly fit a double bed in the room, so ours is smaller.

I've lived in small places, alone admittedly, and far preferred that to sharing when I got a bit ahem, more mature!

It's a sad state of affairs when living alone is considered such a luxury that its priced so far out of reach for most single people. A friend of mine had a flat sometime around 2006 just off Baggot street that probably still wouldnt pass the current guidelines but having spent many hours in there I would happily live there, even now. I was in a house share about 300 metres away and paying 700 a month. He was paying 350. Yes his place was small. Yes in his place you had to technically leave the flat to use the bathroom. But for the price, location and solitude, it was luxury compared to some "approved" places I've seen or even rented.

syklops

Dual-aspect. WTF was that all about? I dont care if I can look out both sides of the place. My curtains are drawn most of the time anyway.

MarkAnthony

syklops wrote: »

Dual-aspect. WTF was that all about? I dont care if I can look out both sides of the place. My curtains are drawn most of the time anyway.

Probably to protect certain single aspects being damp/cold not getting any light?

Silly idea though, one would assume the market would resolve that issue with price.

Idbatterim

One issue that has me totally finished with apartments, is noise!

Another one I have an issue with, is bedroom sizing! How often have I been in apartments with one overly big bedroom and another with a joke of a room!

In the 3 bed apartments, I would propose a separate living room being built, away from the kitchen / dining room, the problem with apartments in particularly 3 bed, you will never get your own space... (it may not be bad with professionals who are out a lot, go home at weekends etc) but with a family with 2 or 3 kids?!!! :eek:

The low hanging fruit is gone, so much of the remaining space in the docklands, work has commenced or will shortly. Moving the port (keep a cruise ferry terminal though). The land was estimated to be worth 600 Billion in the boom! Edit! The land was valued at €15 million an acre, so at that rate (I am not sure what it is now) the land would be worth 15 billion... (Again the value would depend on density permitted etc...)

syklops

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Probably to protect certain single aspects being damp/cold not getting any light?

If thats true, then its not a case of too many chefs, its a case of the kitchen porter designing the menu. Dampness can be kept at bay and even resolved by buying a 50 euro dehumidifier and not trying to dry clothes in dark, already damp rooms. For city centre apartments/flats Im fine with there being no washing/drying facilities because you are walking distance from a laundrette. Going to the Laundrette is a common past time on Saturday in Manhattan.

If its a Carbon Monoxide defence then fine, but decent venting can do that. There are lots of properties in Dublin central which can't do dual aspect, which could well explain the housing shortage. I've been in friends places over the last ten years which were outside of the previous guidelines. I get queasy when I think some of them are empty when so many people are either homeless or doing long commutes to get into the city centre as a result of the previous guidelines.

Silly idea though, one would assume the market would resolve that issue with price.

Supply and demand. This is why the EU frowns on governments interfering with markets, which is what the bedsit ban was and the alcohol bill is.

syklops

Another one I have an issue with, is bedroom sizing! How often have I been in apartments with one overly big bedroom and another with a joke of a room!

I dont have that problem per se. I have a bit of a cramped master bedroom, and a second single bedroom which is a joke. Thats where we dry our clothes mostly, but I agree bedroom sizes in general are tiny.

In the 3 bed apartments, I would propose a separate living room being built, away from the kitchen / dining room, the problem with apartments in particularly 3 bed, you will never get your own space... (it may not be bad with professionals who are out a lot, go home at weekends etc) but with a family with 2 or 3 kids?!!!

Professionals in their early twenties might go out alot and might go home alot at weekends in their early twenties but eventually they will need a few quiet nights in and stay home a few weekends. Building and designing apartments assuming they go "home" a lot is a recipe for disaster. Design and build homes. Homes that work. Homes with storage. Homes that people love and respect and want to stay in, and they become so much more valuable.

cerastes

MarkAnthony wrote: »

44Sqm 2 bedroom apartment - perfectly livable. Although I do think 60sq m would be a more sensible limit. 75Sqm is plenty.

45Sqm in a one bed is again plenty, especially with decent insulation. Example here. A bit pokey but one one is forcing people into buying cheaper end apartments in or very close to the CC.

111Sqm 3 bedroom terrace - less than 30 mins from Pearse, door to door. 220K - just under 200K mortgage required from a FTB, meaning a couple would need to be on just under 60K to afford it which is below the industry average wage for the pair of them.

I knew someone that had a 75 sq metre apartment and that was small, those apartments are tiny, almost prison cell like. They are ridiculous.
Not having storage is ridiculous also. I've seen some apartments on the continent and a seperate storage room/with water/power/drainage seems to be a normal expectation.
This also came along with actual secure parking, security, and practically manicured gardens (and facilities, one had a gym, another had grounds that looked like a park with playground). I'm not saying we could expect the latter, but building up would mean more available space and it would be sensible and reasonable to consider storage as a normal requirement.

On a seperate note and as a reply to someone else, I'd also consider natural ventilation not to be acceptable for spaces lived in, especially apartments.

Eric Cartman

athtrasna wrote: »

You should be able to force people to abide by the contracts they sign that say no wooden floors

I think the dual aspect thing is as big if not a bigger thing than apartment size. I will watch to see how developers seek to benefit from that one.

Those rules were brought in because blocks had crappy insulation. Walking around , dropping a mug , hoovering , watching tv, taking a shower , as in normal things that go on in an apartment should not be able to be heard any time of the day or night by anyone in a surrounding unit.

MarkAnthony

cerastes wrote: »

I knew someone that had a 75 sq metre apartment and that was small, those apartments are tiny, almost prison cell like. They are ridiculous.
Not having storage is ridiculous also. I've seen some apartments on the continent and a seperate storage room/with water/power/drainage seems to be a normal expectation.
This also came along with actual secure parking, security, and practically manicured gardens (and facilities, one had a gym, another had grounds that looked like a park with playground). I'm not saying we could expect the latter, but building up would mean more available space and it would be sensible and reasonable to consider storage as a normal requirement.

On a seperate note and as a reply to someone else, I'd also consider natural ventilation not to be acceptable for spaces lived in, especially apartments.

Someone, and I'm not sure if it's you or not, always brings this up. Yes that's very nice but thats not the way building happens here. Setting unworkable minimum standards for apartments simply results in developers throwing tantrums and not building. Minimums should be exactly that. The market takes care of the rest. If people wanted or could afford 200Sqm two beds they'd be building them.

Also what are you lot storing for christ sake? I grew up in a c.75sqm 3 bed terraced in an old Army estate, me, my brother and my two parents + various dogs and we never had an issue with space. The min standards are fine, as pointed out in the article it's inline with other European countries.

I lived in a c. 40sqm apartment as stated above and had plenty of storage, granted we had to put some of it in ourselves but at the bottom end of the market how many modern art installations do you want in a 1 bed? I had everything I wanted in my flat including a Washer dryer, dishwasher, sofa to seat 4 (corner group) dining table, work area with desk as I'm a PC nerd I had a desktop with three monitors. Plenty of space for clothes for two people and a full sized double bed, not to mention a bathroom with a full sized bath.

cerastes

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Someone, and I'm not sure if it's you or not, always brings this up. Yes that's very nice but thats not the way building happens here. Setting unworkable minimum standards for apartments simply results in developers throwing tantrums and not building. Minimums should be exactly that. The market takes care of the rest. If people wanted or could afford 200Sqm two beds they'd be building them.

Also what are you lot storing for christ sake? I grew up in a c.75sqm 3 bed terraced in an old Army estate, me, my brother and my two parents + various dogs and we never had an issue with space. The min standards are fine, as pointed out in the article it's inline with other European countries.

I lived in a c. 40sqm apartment as stated above and had plenty of storage, granted we had to put some of it in ourselves but at the bottom end of the market how many modern art installations do you want in a 1 bed? I had everything I wanted in my flat including a Washer dryer, dishwasher, sofa to seat 4 (corner group) dining table, work area with desk as I'm a PC nerd I had a desktop with three monitors. Plenty of space for clothes for two people and a full sized double bed, not to mention a bathroom with a full sized bath.

You talking from one extreme to another, no one said 200 metre sq except you. A lot of people have said storage would make sense to them and it was mentioned as having come up on the radio so the idea is out there.
People have stuff, its not art installations (again ridiculous) and comparing to what people grew up in (as kids) to today (as adults) is no comparison.
Inline with European standards, from what Ive seen its not comparing like with like. Anything less that 72/75 Sq metres is tiny, I was astonished when I saw the inside of an apartment that size, any less is ridiculous and that had a small cupboard to put an ironing board/vac into.
The point is making something slightly smaller reduces the area quite a bit to the point it makes it less useable, for the want of a seperate storage space for something like a bicycle (or 2) as they tale up so much space, you probably didnt have that problem in your house growing up as you dont use them or consider it, but in all likelyhood as you grew up in a house you probably had a shed to bung them into (and likely a garden to play in)

If anything a bicycle is an excellent example of something that takes up space (unlike your suggestion of art installations), but which should be encouraged in built up areas, but which people simply cant fit in the corner of a tiny 40 sq metre apartments living room!

Simply not making accomodation to suit peoples needs today only serves to make the idea of apartment living less viable and attractive an option to family's, that along with all the other problems of apartment living that Ive come across, hence why people aim to get their own house.

The govt should be pushing a variety of sizes dependant on the likely uses but which maximises benefit for use/construction.
All thats available now are mostly shoeboxes where people then end up trapped and unable to change, there is also such a thing as quality of life, AND this has been raised by non Irish people, the quality of fit and finish is poor, design/layout for use bad.

What you suggest if we dont pander to developers they wont build, so let them build what they want, and not what is needed (or has been shown at a quality they determine i.e. insulation/fire standards).

caviardreams

cerastes wrote: »

I knew someone that had a 75 sq metre apartment and that was small, those apartments are tiny, almost prison cell like. They are ridiculous.
Not having storage is ridiculous also. I've seen some apartments on the continent and a seperate storage room/with water/power/drainage seems to be a normal expectation.
This also came along with actual secure parking, security, and practically manicured gardens (and facilities, one had a gym, another had grounds that looked like a park with playground). I'm not saying we could expect the latter, but building up would mean more available space and it would be sensible and reasonable to consider storage as a normal requirement.

On a seperate note and as a reply to someone else, I'd also consider natural ventilation not to be acceptable for spaces lived in, especially apartments.

To say 75m is prison cell like is a little extreme. Personally having experienced them, 68m plus works fine for a 2 bed if it is well laid out (i.e. if there isn't 12m wasted on a long corridor etc.)

I don't understand how people complain about apartment sizes constantly but never the same re houses? I know people who live in 2 bed terraces built in the last 20 or 30 years without so much as a hot press, who also have the "where do I put the hoover" problem.

What about this built in 2007 - 73m and a lot more wasted space than an apartment of the same size due to the stairs etc.
http://www.daft.ie/dublin/houses-for-sale/swords/7-holywell-villas-swords-dublin-1144891/

or this at 64m: http://www.daft.ie/dublin/houses-for-sale/swords/78-the-oaks-ridgewood-swords-dublin-1143656/

or this at 59m: http://www.daft.ie/dublin/houses-for-sale/clondalkin/83-st-johns-crescent-clondalkin-dublin-1080076/

These don't seem to cause the same outrage as apartments which are often bigger and better laid out. You really don't need 90m for a 2 bed apartment - anything over 68 can work fine if well-designed. Having said that, a badly designed 68m apartment with lots of needless corridor space/turns/ funny shaped rooms etc. can be terrible, but the same goes for houses.

cerastes

caviardreams wrote: »

To say 75m is prison cell like is a little extreme. Personally having experienced them, 68m plus works fine for a 2 bed if it is well laid out (i.e. if there isn't 12m wasted on a long corridor etc.)

I don't understand how people complain about apartment sizes constantly but never the same re houses? I know people who live in 2 bed terraces built in the last 20 or 30 years without so much as a hot press, who also have the "where do I put the hoover" problem.

What about this built in 2007 - 73m and a lot more wasted space than an apartment of the same size due to the stairs etc.
http://www.daft.ie/dublin/houses-for-sale/swords/7-holywell-villas-swords-dublin-1144891/

or this at 64m: http://www.daft.ie/dublin/houses-for-sale/swords/78-the-oaks-ridgewood-swords-dublin-1143656/

or this at 59m: http://www.daft.ie/dublin/houses-for-sale/clondalkin/83-st-johns-crescent-clondalkin-dublin-1080076/

These don't seem to cause the same outrage as apartments which are often bigger and better laid out. You really don't need 90m for a 2 bed apartment - anything over 68 can work fine if well-designed. Having said that, a badly designed 68m apartment with lots of needless corridor space/turns/ funny shaped rooms etc. can be terrible, but the same goes for houses.

That first one looks very acceptable, tbh I was told the dimension I mentioned, by the owner and it was a one bed, so maybe they were overstating the dimensions of their apartment or just got it completely wrong, so it must have been smaller, but not as small as the one shown above at 44? or so metres squared.

That first example of yours (even with the stairs) looks much bigger than what I was told was 72-75m^2 as it was a one bed and didn't have an ensuite.
That said, your example has a garden with a shed, either weather proof garden furniture, or a weatherproof tub, plus there is a shed and still the garden to let children play in, all amounts to a bit of a difference between an equivalently sized apt.
Another thing is, the kitchen/dining is seperate from the living room, which I think is a reasonable thing.

meeeeh

Why would you want to keep a bicycle in the flat? Apartment buildings should definitely have communal storage for bikes and similar but having them in the flat is complete lunacy. It's waste of space and communal areas get a lot dirtier if everyone drags up bicycles.

Anyway I don't think 45sqm is that bad as a minimum. There are a lot of smart storage solutions that make it completely liveable as one bedroom apartment.

borderlinemeath

caviardreams wrote: »

I don't understand how people complain about apartment sizes constantly but never the same re houses? I know people who live in 2 bed terraces built in the last 20 or 30 years without so much as a hot press, who also have the "where do I put the hoover" problem.

Attic space;)

Plus the fact of having your own front door and back door/garden is invaluable when lots of apartments don't have balcony space. I lived in a 2 bed apartment in Dublin City Centre and the lack of outside space was claustrophobic, spent a summer in a far smaller one bed sharing and the balcony is practically an extra room.

Also what are you lot storing for christ sake? I grew up in a c.75sqm 3 bed terraced in an old Army estate, me, my brother and my two parents + various dogs and we never had an issue with space. The min standards are fine, as pointed out in the article it's inline with other European countries.

Growing up even 2 decades ago everybody had a lot less "stuff", everybody made do. Kitchen cupboards had food and plates, not kitchen gadgets. Stuff was piled on top of stuff, I grew up in a house with lots of siblings, and there was 4 of us to a bedroom, you piled your books under your bed and you had to share a chest of drawers for your clothes. If you have kids now, there's just no room for anything, bouncers, rockers, buggies, car seats - before you even start on their toys.

cerastes

meeeeh wrote: »

Why would you want to keep a bicycle in the flat? Apartment buildings should definitely have communal storage for bikes and similar but having them in the flat is complete lunacy. It's waste of space and communal areas get a lot dirtier if everyone drags up bicycles.

Anyway I don't think 45sqm is that bad as a minimum. There are a lot of smart storage solutions that make it completely liveable as one bedroom apartment.

Exactly!
Communal storage and access from my experience has either not been available or not secure.
Individual secure storage space would be perfect, prevent damage to communal areas and save space in a flat. If you had a nice expensive bike if you cycled a lot, Im sure your view would be different. Your option is either where anyone can damage your bike or work away at the lock at their convenience/leisure.

keane2097

If you have trailers worth of odds and ends accumulated you would either ditch it, get a storage unit or refuse to be forced to live in a small apartment that nobody will be trying to force you to live in.

cerastes

keane2097 wrote: »

If you have trailers worth of odds and ends accumulated you would either ditch it, get a storage unit or refuse to be forced to live in a small apartment that nobody will be trying to force you to live in.

Who said trailers worth, Im talking normal stuff, sometimes people have things they use occasionally, that doesnt mean they should just dump it, nor does being required to also organise and pay for seperate storage make any sense when there should be a reasonable amount of storage. Ive seen this in places on the continent, no one seemed to think this was out of the ordinary, except the surprised Irish people who had lived in shoe box apartments.

MarkAnthony

cerastes wrote: »

Who said trailers worth, Im talking normal stuff, sometimes people have things they use occasionally, that doesnt mean they should just dump it, nor does being required to also organise and pay for seperate storage make any sense when there should be a reasonable amount of storage. Ive seen this in places on the continent, no one seemed to think this was out of the ordinary, except the surprised Irish people who had lived in shoe box apartments.

I've seen tiny places on 'the continent' most notably in Paris. I do wish people would stop pushing 'The Continent' as some utopia where the government simultaneously force developers to build while insisting on huge floor space. There has also been more of an affinity with apartment living in some mainland European countries. While modern art installs might be ridiculous this constant referral to some nebulous 'On the continent' where apartments are in parks etc simply doesn't assist the discussion.

Let's get down to the nitty gritty here. You think 75Msq is too small but 200msq to be ridiculous, so where should the minimum standard be? How many people should we force out of the CC because you want to take the decision out of their hands for whatever reason. The majority of 3 bed terraces in Dublin would be under 100Sqm and those have to account for stairwells ect. So anyone in one of those is struggling too I take it?

As for as a variety of sizes okay that's sensible and what is being required in the new regs. If you need a room specifically for junk simply buy a three bed apartment rather than a two bed and store your bike in there.

q85dw7osi4lebg

I sold a 2 bed refurbed cottage of 37sqm earlier this year in Dublin 1. Queues out the door.

q85dw7osi4lebg

Likewise with a 39 sq.m 1 bed in Smithfield a few months back. <= 40 sq.m is small but people would be surprised just how much of the city's accommodation is already sub this size.

MarkAnthony

I think it's obvious that I'm getting wound up and I do apologise. The issue I have is that we keep making these kneejerk reactions and it's causing absolute chaos in Dublin. It's a laudable goal to improve the standard of living, but that is simply not done by forcing the issue. We've managed to prove that with developers saying they need 250K for one bed apartments which is simply silly. While I've no love for developers I've even less love for the idea of centralised building on any large scale. I just hope NAMA don't make a heames of things.

What is irking me is these decisions are being made by people with no experience of City living. There are people making suggestions that simply aren't in touch with the realities of the situation. I'm so fed up with people complaining that there isn't X,Y or Z in a complex and thinking building guidelines will resolve it. Unless there is a strong sense of community within the complex, which stems from a good and involved OMC having the strongest cages in the world isn't going to keep your bike safe and the kiddies play area will be taken over by people drinking cans. It doesn't matter how nice the surroundings are.

Your living space is what you make of it. Yes certain minimum standards have to apply. I don't dispute that. They need to be exactly that though, minimums with the market dictating larger apartments in the right areas. Is anyone seriously suggesting that the cost of bigger floor plans is not simply put back on to the buyers?

Idbatterim

The low hanging fruit is gone, so much of the remaining space in the docklands, work has commenced or will shortly. Moving the port (keep a cruise ferry terminal though). The land was estimated to be worth 600 Billion in the boom! Edit! The land was valued at €15 million an acre, so at that rate (I am not sure what it is now) the land would be worth 15 billion... (Again the value would depend on density permitted etc...)

expanding on this, the poolbeg incinerator should not be permitted in my opinion. Even the sewage treatment plant there should be moved eventually in my opinion (if it is feasible)... That port land and the Irish glass bottle site could provide a spectacular amount of residential and commercial development...

gaius c

Nonsense decision. Why don't they just build up?

accensi0n

Jensen Rotten Outfield wrote: »

I sold a 2 bed refurbed cottage of 37sqm earlier this year in Dublin 1. Queues out the door.

Because they couldn't fit inside?

riclad

OF COURSE there,s a queue, no of house,s for sale , are limited in the city centre .
i,d prefer to live in a 35 sq m house, than a 45 m apartment ,with someone living above, me, beside me, underneath me etc
And apartments =1000 euro plus service charges .
This decision is to reduce building cost ,
builders say they can,t make a profit building in most parts of dublin.
The height they can build is limited in most parts of dublin.

Marcusm

<MOD SNIP >

I hold no candkes for those who want to reduce sizes but that is simply sensationalist. The minimum size of a one bed is now set at 45sq m; 20 years ago, people buying 2 bed apartments in Bachelors Walk, Viking Harbour, Arran Quay were getting less than 45sq m and that's with an extra bedroom.

What will really impact is the increase in north facing apartments etc.

Ultimately, no one will be forced to buy them and, size wise, they will certainly be a marked increase on a lot of the stock of apartments in central Dublin particularly.

riclad

I see no problem with having windows on 1 side of an apartment ,if the windows are big
enough to provide light during day light hours,
if it reduces costs ,and encourages more builders to build more units .
45 m is enough for a single person to live in ,
the trend is more single people living alone .
We need a good mix of 2 ,3 and 1 bed apartments .
On the top floor builders can put in roof windows to provide extra light .
IF some family has 3 cars maybe they should consider buying a house .
i see apartment complexs outside the city centre ,
maybe 30 per cent of the parking space is used ,
maybe 30 per cent of the residents have cars .
Alot of people in dublin just use bus, luas or taxi,s

johnnyskeleton

Jensen Rotten Outfield wrote: »

Likewise with a 39 sq.m 1 bed in Smithfield a few months back. <= 40 sq.m is small but people would be surprised just how much of the city's accommodation is already sub this size.

Could i ask which development this was? I mean if it rents for 1k a month and was sold for 120k thats a 10% yield so i wouldnt be surprised if it sold.

markpb

riclad wrote: »

i see apartment complexs outside the city centre ,
maybe 30 per cent of the parking space is used ,
maybe 30 per cent of the residents have cars .
Alot of people in dublin just use bus, luas or taxi,s

I have to call BS on that. I've lived in several apartment complex across the city and none of the car parks were only 30% used. That includes one which was 400m from Balally Luas in Dundrum.

Of course, you could argue that the cars may not have been used or may only have been used at weekends but that's not my experience either.