RTE INVESTIGATES AU PAIRS

SEPT 23 1989

some of those parents should have their kids taken off them

Disgraceful behaviour

BoJack Horseman

are au-pairs regular workers?
ie: does the employer pay employers PRSI & USC?

Atlantic Dawn

Does the provider of the au pair insure them while working?
Are the providers of the au pairs licensed?
Is there any qualification required to run an au pair agency?
Are au pair agencies tax compliant?
Do any TD's use au pairs on a similar exploitative basis?

loyatemu

BoJack Horseman wrote:

are au-pairs regular workers? ie: does the employer pay employers PRSI & USC?

They're not regular employees, I think it's treated as some sort of cultural exchange. They're students who do chores in exchange for room/board/pocket money.

Slave labour.

Put legislation in to protect workers and employers.

How the hell could you pay someone 3 quid an hour.

byhookorbycrook

Jobsbridge still exists to exploit workers,

Dirty Dingus McGee

Not watching the programme but if someone coming in from abroad and not being paid in line with a regular job (i.e. getting a payslip and having PAYE and PRSI taken off and being paid at least minimum wage) is a disgrace.It's ripe for exploitation.

Krispie

Very one sided report. Had aupair who was asked to do 30 hrs. Provided with car and fuel. Did nothing. Left us high and dry. English paid for. Tf we have left it behind us. Aupair knew coming over t&c.

Krispie

Krispie wrote: »

Very one sided report. Had aupair who was asked to do 30 hrs. Provided with car and fuel. Did nothing. Left us high and dry. English paid for. Tf we have left it behind us. Aupair knew coming over t&c.

High and dry? Did she steal your car or what happened?

Very vague post

Atlantic Dawn

Krispie wrote: »

Very one sided report. Had aupair who was asked to do 30 hrs. Provided with car and fuel. Did nothing. Left us high and dry. English paid for. Tf we have left it behind us. Aupair knew coming over t&c.

Was she an EU citizen, were you paying her at least €8.65 per hour?

Red Kev

There'll be sweet FA done about the au pairs. It's too convenient for those who benefit the most from it. These people also have a direct line to the lawmakers in this country and nothing will come of it.

I know people who have au pairs, some of them treat them OK, some of them are treated like crap. It's cheap, unregulated labour for the wealthiest sector of our society.

Mrs OBumble

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Was she an EU citizen, were you paying her at least €8.65 per hour?

Very few au pairs have had two years work experience since they turned 18. Until they do, min wage for them is lower.

And cost of accommodation is a legitimate deduction from the wage they get.

Dricmeister

This €8.65 an hour stuff is a red herring.

They're being provided with accommodation and being fed.

The standard deal is €450 a month and everyone including the au pairs is happy with that.

Applying minimum wage rules to something that is different to an employment is a lazy argument.

snoopy12

I don't get how anyone could treat their childminder poorly. Surely to do so would cause resentment which would be passed onto the child , even subconsciously.

* Edit to add that I didn't see the documentary but basing it more on anecdotal stories of au pairs working hours basically as nannies rather than exchanging babysitting for bed and board.

darkdubh

People who hire au-Pairs are generally &rseholes.Keeping up with the Joneses Nouveau riche types.

Dricmeister

darkdubh wrote: »

People who hire au-Pairs are generally &rseholes.Keeping up with the Joneses Nouveau riche types.

Or they just have jobs and need someone to mind their kids...

Stealthfins

darkdubh wrote:

People who hire au-Pairs are generally &rseholes.Keeping up with the Joneses Nouveau riche types.

Definitely,I seen it a few times.
Miserable fckrs,who only want to hang out in coffee shops,go to the gym and shop.
He usually works a demanding job,while she is a grown-up brat.
It's not uncommon for the wife to pick out an unattractive au pair in case her hubby gets any ideas 😱

ted1

darkdubh wrote: »

People who hire au-Pairs are generally &rseholes.Keeping up with the Joneses Nouveau riche types.

Utter rubbish.

El_Duderino 09

loyatemu wrote:

They're not regular employees, I think it's treated as some sort of cultural exchange. They're students who do chores in exchange for room/board/pocket money.

I was looking up minimum wage in the the UK and you don't need to pay minimum wage to carers who take part in normal family activities such as eating and living together and going on outings together. I presume it's similar in Ireland.

loyatemu

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I was looking up minimum wage in the the UK and you don't need to pay minimum wage to carers who take part in normal family activities such as eating and living together and going on outings together. I presume it's similar in Ireland.

It's similar in lots of countries and Irish students also go abroad to work as au pairs. There needs to be safeguards against exploitation but if regular employment rules were applied to it, no one would do it at all.

BoJack Horseman

It seems much of this can simply be covered by legislation.

The government can very easily ensure pay standards & employer PRSI/US compliance arrangements.

degrassinoel

70 hours a week is a bit much for anyone tbh

au pair
əʊ ˈpɛː/
noun
plural noun: au pairs
a young foreign person, typically a woman, who helps with housework or childcare in exchange for food, a room, and some pocket money.
"an au pair girl"

It does need legislation if it's being abused, and it clearly is by some people here. 'Reasonable' should be the key-word used for both sides.

jim-mcdee

I know several people who have worked and are working as au pairs and I would say the program last night was spot on, not a bit exagerated, and if anything the situation is even worse. Expecting people to work 40-50 hours a week for €100 - €150 is utter abuse - modern slavery really, because the market (people) have forced these unfortunates into it. How these people delude themselves into thinking its ok is beyond me, and I am ashamed of the behavior that is rampant in this country. Whatever happened to fair play? If you cannot afford to pay some the minimum wage minus the food and board deduction - guess what - you cannot afford an au pair. This is not opinion. This is legally speaking. Any au pair, I encourage you to take detailed notes of their working hours, calculate what they are owed when they want to leave their employment, and present the bill to their employer. If they don't pay, take them to court.

jim-mcdee

Dricmeister wrote: »

This €8.65 an hour stuff is a red herring.

They're being provided with accommodation and being fed.

The standard deal is €450 a month and everyone including the au pairs is happy with that.

Applying minimum wage rules to something that is different to an employment is a lazy argument.

How is it different to an employment? It is different only in your head, because it suites you. €450 for a months work is a disgrace, you don't think so because your mates are doing the same, so you think its ok. Its not ok, pay a decent wage!

ted1

jim-mcdee wrote: »

I know several people who have worked and are working as au pairs and I would say the program last night was spot on, not a bit exagerated, and if anything the situation is even worse. Expecting people to work 40-50 hours a week for €100 - €150 is utter abuse - modern slavery really, because the market (people) have forced these unfortunates into it. How these people delude themselves into thinking its ok is beyond me, and I am ashamed of the behavior that is rampant in this country. Whatever happened to fair play? If you cannot afford to pay some the minimum wage minus the food and board deduction - guess what - you cannot afford an au pair. This is not opinion. This is legally speaking. Any au pair, I encourage you to take detailed notes of their working hours, calculate what they are owed when they want to leave their employment, and present the bill to their employer. If they don't pay, take them to court.

That's a bit sensational. How much would they have to spend on accomodation, food, Elec, heating, Internet, travel etc .
You need to add these into the costs.
If an au pair is coming to Ireland for the first time then they would need 2 months rent up front.

Family members of mine have had several au pairs mainly students who came for three months learn English.
They bought the kids to school at 8:30 then went off to do their own language course. Collected the kids at 2:30 and minded them till 5 when their mum came home.

They are really grateful for the work which wasn't to hard, and had relative few hours , but enabled them to learn English , live in Dublin and get some money to spend while they were here.

There is no way that they could have come here other wise

Dirty Dingus McGee

ted1 wrote: »

That's a bit sensational. How much would they have to spend on accomodation, food, Elec, heating, Internet, travel etc .
You need to add these into the costs.
If an au pair is coming to Ireland for the first time then they would need 2 months rent up front.

Family members of mine have had several au pairs mainly students who came for three months learn English.
They bought the kids to school at 8:30 then went off to do their own language course. Collected the kids at 2:30 and minded them till 5 when their mum came home.

They are really grateful for the work which wasn't to hard, and had relative few hours , but enabled them to learn English , live in Dublin and get some money to spend while they were here.

There is no way that they could have come here other wise

Surely a better idea would be to pay them like a normal job Payslip,PAYE PRSI and then charge the Au Pair for the cost of their food , accommodation etc.and have everything completely above board so their is less chance of them being exploited.

Sam Kade

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Very few au pairs have had two years work experience since they turned 18. Until they do, min wage for them is lower.

And cost of accommodation is a legitimate deduction from the wage they get.

Meals provided as well, they hardly expect accomdation and meals for free.

ted1

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Surely a better idea would be to pay them like a normal job Payslip,PAYE PRSI and then charge the Au Pair for the cost of their food , accommodation etc.and have everything completely above board so their is less chance of them being exploited.

Why Would that have been better? The Au Pair would have no money then?

Say 20 hours a week. 20*8.65 =173 euro. A ensuite room in Dublin is 800 a month. So straight away the au pair is actually 27 euro out of pocket. Before she pays for food , travel , heating etc.
And see loses the 100 euro a week

jim-mcdee

ted1 wrote: »

That's a bit sensational. How much would they have to spend on accomodation, food, Elec, heating, Internet, travel etc .
You need to add these into the costs.
If an au pair is coming to Ireland for the first time then they would need 2 months rent up front.

Family members of mine have had several au pairs mainly students who came for three months learn English.
They bought the kids to school at 8:30 then went off to do their own language course. Collected the kids at 2:30 and minded them till 5 when their mum came home.

They are really grateful for the work which wasn't to hard, and had relative few hours , but enabled them to learn English , live in Dublin and get some money to spend while they were here.

There is no way that they could have come here other wise

I'm not going to make assumptions on your situation. It sounds like your au pairs were the lucky ones. Going by what you stated, 1 1/2 h in the morning, 2 1/2 h in the evening, 4h pd, 20 hours per week, 20*8.35 - 55 room and board = 112e pw. I therefore find it surprising that you do not agree that au pairs should be paid fairly when they are being asked to work essentially full time hours and more (of course these are not really au pairs). Nobody is arguing against au pairing. Strange you have picked it up so.

jim-mcdee

ted1 wrote: »

Why Would that have been better? The Au Pair would have no money then?

Say 20 hours a week. 20*8.65 =173 euro. A ensuite room in Dublin is 800 a month. So straight away the au pair is actually 27 euro out of pocket. Before she pays for food , travel , heating etc.
And see loses the 100 euro a week

Thats not an au pair. An au pair pays 55 per week for food and board. Funny how people justify virtual slavery in their own heads.

ted1

jim-mcdee wrote: »

I'm not going to make assumptions on your situation. It sounds like your au pairs were the lucky ones. Going by what you stated, 1 1/2 h in the morning, 2 1/2 h in the evening, 4h pd, 20 hours per week, 20*8.35 - 55 room and board = 112e pw. I therefore find it surprising that you do not agree that au pairs should be paid fairly when they are being asked to work essentially full time hours and more (of course these are not really au pairs). Nobody is arguing against au pairing. Strange you have picked it up so.

What's the 55 for room and board? It's 200 a week in Dublin.

ted1

jim-mcdee wrote: »

Thats not an au pair. An au pair pays 55 per week for food and board. Funny how people justify virtual slavery in their own heads.

Who says they pay 55?
From my experience they don't pay anything.
It's not virtual slavery, the ones I know where treated very well and enjoyed their time here and have offered to come back during their holidays from college.

If you expect them to get minimum wage and pay PRSI etc, then you need to charge them market rate for rent etc.
Which for 20 hours makes it cost them
Money as oppose to getting money.

The au pairs I know where French and Spainish and were here to learn the language. They were not here to make money.

jim-mcdee

ted1 wrote: »

Who says they pay 55?
From my experience they don't pay anything.
It's not virtual slavery, the ones I know where treated very well and enjoyed their time here and have offered to come back during their holidays from college.

An au pair is entitled to min wage and a maximum deduction of 55e as a live in worker for food and lodgings. Have no idea what your arguing about. If your trying to make some justification for paying crap money it will probably work on the thousands that do the same but not on anyone with a sense of decency and fairness. If you think that its ok to pay little or no money to someone 'cause there lucky to have a bed the price of things nowadays in de capital' you are wrong. What we are talking about here is exploitation. "I have something you want, and I know you will accept SFA because your desperate and have no alternative". And some people delude themselves into thinking they are some kind of Samaritan for doing this. I can see how people who have been enjoying this gravy train of slave labor will want it to continue and defend it to the hilt. The ones we wont hear from are the ones paying properly and giving proper conditions.

ted1

jim-mcdee wrote: »

An au pair is entitled to min wage and a maximum deduction of 55e as a live in worker for food and lodgings. Have no idea what your arguing about. If your trying to make some justification for paying crap money it will probably work on the thousands that do the same but not on anyone with a sense of decency and fairness. If you think that its ok to pay little or no money to someone 'cause there lucky to have a bed the price of things nowadays in de capital' you are wrong. What we are talking about here is exploitation. "I have something you want, and I know you will accept SFA because your desperate and have no alternative". And some people delude themselves into thinking they are some kind of Samaritan for doing this. I can see how people who have been enjoying this gravy train of slave labor will want it to continue and defend it to the hilt. The ones we wont hear from are the ones paying properly and giving proper conditions.

Well just have to agree to disagree,

The ones I know work 20 hours and get the equivalent of about 400-500 euro a week for doing it.

I don't see any slavery in that.

ohnonotgmail

jim-mcdee wrote: »

Thats not an au pair. An au pair pays 55 per week for food and board. Funny how people justify virtual slavery in their own heads.

where can you get room and board for €55 a week?

Ranleth

The €54 is in the domestic workers info: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/types_of_employment/domestic_workers_in_ireland.html

Realistically the cost of accommodation and food per month is a lot closer to €800.

So IF you were paying €8.65 and charging €800 then:
a. 35hrs x 8.65 + PRSI = €1313 per month, less €800 would be €128 per week for the au pair. I assume they'd have to pay some tax.
b. 20hrs x 8.65 + PRSI = €750 per month, less €800 would be -€12 per week for the au pair.

I assume they'd have to pay some tax too....

I believe most au-pairs are treated as part of the family but obviously there are exceptions. There should be au-pair specific legislation to include minimum wage but just have a realistic board and lodging figure....

dirtynosebeps

i saw the program last night. while there is widespread abuse. you cannot throw everything back to the families. the program was mostly one sided.
one girl from a website made a valid point when being interviewed in that if the minimum wage is introduced the au pair program as we know it between families and au pairs will be gone.
if anything the abuse by both sides needs to be stamped out.

these au pairs come here on visas, they know what their visas entails on what they can and cannot do.
when non eu nationals take on roles as au pairs illegally they know themselves they are also breaking the rules of their visas, just as any citizen travelling to a foreign country would. it's no different to travelling to the states, australia, new zealand. the term and conditions clearly are set out in black and white.
i know of a family who took on a non eu national for their first au pair. the au pair went to her school paid €150 to a supervisor to sign her into class everyday.
non eu nationals need a " job" as they call it to stay in ireland. if they cant get a "job" they either have to go home or do some form of "other work" which by the way alot are getting into as they have no choice.
when they take on the role as an au pair with a family know most what they're getting themselves into.
again if they want to enforce au pairs being employees, it works for both sides, when someone gets "employment" for the first time they are given a probation period which means that any time during the probation they can be let go without a moments notice. again going back to enforcement. this would mean a family could tell their probationary employee to back their bags and leave immediately.
the whole thing will have very wide implications for both sides and not just families.

it's a pity primetime have nothing better to investigate ohhhh like "transfers" within a certain community featured on the programe. i'm sure the taxi industry would be pretty interested as well as most of us that pay the extra levy for uninsured drivers.

ted1

There's no need to get non eu au pairs. Plenty of French, Spainish college students looking to improve their English

jim-mcdee

dirtynosebeps wrote: »

i saw the program last night. while there is widespread abuse. you cannot throw everything back to the families. the program was mostly one sided.
one girl from a website made a valid point when being interviewed in that if the minimum wage is introduced the au pair program as we know it between families and au pairs will be gone.
if anything the abuse by both sides needs to be stamped out.

these au pairs come here on visas, they know what their visas entails on what they can and cannot do.
when non eu nationals take on roles as au pairs illegally they know themselves they are also breaking the rules of their visas, just as any citizen travelling to a foreign country would. it's no different to travelling to the states, australia, new zealand. the term and conditions clearly are set out in black and white.
i know of a family who took on a non eu national for their first au pair. the au pair went to her school paid €150 to a supervisor to sign her into class everyday.
non eu nationals need a " job" as they call it to stay in ireland. if they cant get a "job" they either have to go home or do some form of "other work" which by the way alot are getting into as they have no choice.
when they take on the role as an au pair with a family know most what they're getting themselves into.
again if they want to enforce au pairs being employees, it works for both sides, when someone gets "employment" for the first time they are given a probation period which means that any time during the probation they can be let go without a moments notice. again going back to enforcement. this would mean a family could tell their probationary employee to back their bags and leave immediately.
the whole thing will have very wide implications for both sides and not just families.

it's a pity primetime have nothing better to investigate ohhhh like "transfers" within a certain community featured on the programe. i'm sure the taxi industry would be pretty interested as well as most of us that pay the extra levy for uninsured drivers.

Prime time do investigate other issues. But this is a serious issue as well, just that many do not realise it, or perhaps because it is affecting only foreigners negatively, do not really care. The government are issuing visas to these people, the do have some degree of duty of care. You may have noticed how seriously Denmark takes it, and they have only 2,000 au pairs. Ireland has more than 10 times that.

ted1

jim-mcdee wrote: »

You may have noticed how seriously Denmark takes it, and they have only 2,000 au pairs. Ireland has more than 10 times that.

Aren't stats great? They can be misused constantly and seldom used in context.

To complete your comparasion to Denmark you need to look at the cost of childcare as a whole, the prartenity benefits, and so on.

Have you noticed how serious Ireland takes sports, most schools in Ireland have a Gaelic team , in Denmark they don't even know what it is. Isn't context great..

jim-mcdee

ted1 wrote: »

Aren't stats great? They can be misused constantly and seldom used in context.

To complete your comparasion to Denmark you need to look at the cost of childcare as a whole, the prartenity benefits, and so on.

Have you noticed how serious Ireland takes sports, most schools in Ireland have a Gaelic team , in Denmark they don't even know what it is. Isn't context great..

Seems like you just like to argue Ted, for the sake of it. Hoping to get to nine thousand posts before the new year are you?

ted1

jim-mcdee wrote: »

Seems like you just like to argue Ted, for the sake of it. Hoping to get to nine thousand posts before the new year are you?

No , it's just I can't stand when people post rubbish, especially those that have a holier than thou attitude.
The fact is you posted rubbish and got pulled up on it. If you didn't post rubbish you ain't get pulled up on it.

dirtynosebeps

jim-mcdee wrote: »

or perhaps because it is affecting only foreigners negatively, do not really care. The government are issuing visas to these people, the do have some degree of duty of care. You may have noticed how seriously Denmark takes it, and they have only 2,000 au pairs. Ireland has more than 10 times that.

we live in ireland not any other country, if all other member states treated au pairs like crap does that mean ireland has to follow.
god love statistics from other countries, if only i lived in them it would be great.
the fact is we have a problem that is being abused by both sides in ireland.
i personally dont care what happens outside my country.
but
if you do want to go down the road of denmark, best to have a look at how they do language schools. i bet they're not government sanctioned where the owners close up shop at a whim taking the students money.
the fact is most of these non eu students run out money well before their 12 months stay is up, i'd say it even runs out before 6 months.
they need a job to survive, some families are giving them "jobs". hence this is why we are in this isutation.
if anything our own government need to tighten their own controls.
i.e. the amount of money a student needs to survive when entering ireland
stricter and tighter visa control.

jim-mcdee wrote: »

Prime time do investigate other issues. But this is a serious issue as well,

so you dont think foreign non eu nationals driving around as hackney drivers on learner permits is a serious issue or warrants investigation, by the way most of whom come a certain community as featured on the primetime investigates.
because thats exactly what i'm on about.
which means they are taking money as a reward
which means their insurance is null and void
which means we have at least hundreds of uninsured drivers driving aound but it seems this is not as serious as some families treating au pairs badly.

jim-mcdee

dirtynosebeps wrote: »

we live in ireland not any other country, if all other member states treated au pairs like crap does that mean ireland has to follow.
god love statistics from other countries, if only i lived in them it would be great.
the fact is we have a problem that is being abused by both sides in ireland.
i personally dont care what happens outside my country.
but
if you do want to go down the road of denmark, best to have a look at how they do language schools. i bet they're not government sanctioned where the owners close up shop at a whim taking the students money.
the fact is most of these non eu students run out money well before their 12 months stay is up, i'd say it even runs out before 6 months.
they need a job to survive, some families are giving them "jobs". hence this is why we are in this isutation.
if anything our own government need to tighten their own controls.
i.e. the amount of money a student needs to survive when entering ireland
stricter and tighter visa control.


so you dont think foreign non eu nationals driving around as hackney drivers on learner permits is a serious issue or warrants investigation, by the way most of whom come a certain community as featured on the primetime investigates.
because thats exactly what i'm on about.
which means they are taking money as a reward
which means their insurance is null and void
which means we have at least hundreds of uninsured drivers driving aound but it seems this is not as serious as some families treating au pairs badly.

Well, you are bringing up a lot of other things there of which there is a lot of inaccurate second hand misinformation going around, especially the language schools. As for these 'rogue taxis', I will await with bated breath for that prime time.

Stolen Valour

The self righteous in this thread is making me sick. Slave labour my hole, my sister did it in Switzerland and enjoyed the experience, applying minimum wage to a job where you are fed and boarded is a nonsense. All it does is make it infeasible for it to continue so both au pairs and punters lose out.

Also the people who think Au Pairs are used mainly by upper class snobs are some eejits. The main appeal of Au Pairs is that they are a cheaper alternative to crèches/child minders. Ireland is one of the most expensive countries when it comes to childcare, pricing Au Pairs out of the market now means some parents will have to give up their job, well done, sure the parents, Au pairs and economy is worse off but at least you can feel morally superior about having defeated this abhorrent slave labour practice.

Atlantic Dawn

Stolen Valour wrote: »

The self righteous in this thread is making me sick. Slave labour my hole, my sister did it in Switzerland and enjoyed the experience, applying minimum wage to a job where you are fed and boarded is a nonsense. All it does is make it infeasible for it to continue so both au pairs and punters lose out.

Also the people who think Au Pairs are used mainly by upper class snobs are some eejits. The main appeal of Au Pairs is that they are a cheaper alternative to crèches/child minders. Ireland is one of the most expensive countries when it comes to childcare, pricing Au Pairs out of the market now means some parents will have to give up their job, well done, sure the parents, Au pairs and economy is worse off but at least you can feel morally superior about having defeated this abhorrent slave labour practice.

So you didn't watch the show at all then?