Juries, why are jurors treated so badly here in Ireland?

Biffo The Bare

Why is being a juror such a dismal business here in Ireland.
You suddenly become prisoners for the length of the trial if you are picked.
Jurors are a commodity. Cattle to be moved around. Even if you are not picked, it's no picnic either.
I have been on jury duty twice in my life, once recently. I was picked for the jury twice.
It does not matter how important YOUR job is for your company, you have no choice in the matter but to do this task.
I think reform is needed in this area of the legal profession.
A jurors time to them is just as valuable as judges time, or the defence counsel's or the prosecuting counsel's time, so they should be compensated as such, be given the same benefit in kind as the judge or courtroom staff, for example a proper lunch, and as many cups of coffee and biscuits as they need. And monitory compensation that is in line with what the judge gets for sitting there and judging.
What do you think?

Cortina_MK_IV

Just on the last bit, I did it before and every day we were led down the quays and had a really nice lunch. At times of legal argument when we were dismissed there was endless tea and coffee and biscuits. I worked with lads that were happy to do it as it gave them a break from the normal working day and they didn't lose money.

Biffo The Bare

Cortina_MK_IV wrote: »

Just on the last bit, I did it before and every day we were led down the quays and had a really nice lunch. At times of legal argument when we were dismissed there was endless tea and coffee and biscuits. I worked with lads that were happy to do it as it gave them a break from the normal working day and they didn't lose money.

Not the case in Limerick. No endless supply of refreshments.
Anyway my main point is you want lay-people to make legal decisions, pay them as such.
What if the juror is self employed or unemployed? Luckily I was not,

Victor

Biffo The Bare wrote: »

It does not matter how important YOUR job is for your company, you have no choice in the matter but to do this task.

you can be exempted where your attendance would have an excessive effect on the business.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/courtroom/jury_service.html

http://www.courts.ie/Courts.ie/library3.nsf/pagecurrent/936CF234C30E91B8802570990055C520?opendocument&l=en

Biffo The Bare

Victor wrote: »

you can be exempted where your attendance would have an excessive effect on the business.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/courtroom/jury_service.html

http://www.courts.ie/Courts.ie/library3.nsf/pagecurrent/936CF234C30E91B8802570990055C520?opendocument&l=en

Only if the judge allows it. If you are not providing an important community service but your business will be in trouble if you miss one or two weeks, you need to make an extraordinary plea to the judge.

Ash.J.Williams

i got called for jury and i hadn't a bean in my pocket needed a fortune in parking and still got clamped...overall the experience cost a fortune

Little CuChulainn

Biffo The Bare wrote: »

Not the case in Limerick. No endless supply of refreshments.
Anyway my main point is you want lay-people to make legal decisions, pay them as such.
What if the juror is self employed or unemployed? Luckily I was not,

Juries don't make any of the legal decisions, judges do. Juries decide if the evidence is enough to prove guilt.

10000maniacs

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Juries don't make any of the legal decisions, judges do. Juries decide if the evidence is enough to prove guilt.

Splitting hairs?
A jury makes a legal decision on behalf of the judge based on all the evidence supplied in the trial. It is a LEGAL DECISION based on the evidence.
The verdict supplied by the jury sets a legal precedent.
So it is a legal decision.

Stheno

Victor wrote: »

you can be exempted where your attendance would have an excessive effect on the business.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/courtroom/jury_service.html

http://www.courts.ie/Courts.ie/library3.nsf/pagecurrent/936CF234C30E91B8802570990055C520?opendocument&l=en

Biffo The Bare wrote: »

Only if the judge allows it. If you are not providing an important community service but your business will be in trouble if you miss one or two weeks, you need to make an extraordinary plea to the judge.

I was excempted by a court clerk when called for jury service, rang them, explained why I couldn't do it and they took me off the list.

Carawaystick

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

i got called for jury and i hadn't a bean in my pocket needed a fortune in parking and still got clamped...overall the experience cost a fortune

Or you could have parked somewhere with free parking, or got public transport.
If you're in D8 it's hardly very far to the CCJ or 4courts anyway.

haveringchick

Biffo The Bare wrote: »

Not the case in Limerick. No endless supply of refreshments.
Anyway my main point is you want lay-people to make legal decisions, pay them as such.
What if the juror is self employed or unemployed? Luckily I was not,

Are you suggesting that you didn't get lunch and adequate refreshments
Sorry, I don't believe you

Choc Chip

haveringchick wrote: »

Are you suggesting that you didn't get lunch and adequate refreshments
Sorry, I don't believe you

I've not been on a jury but I've heard from a reliable source that dietary requirements might not be accounted for. For example, vegetarians might get a cheese salad but vegans are on their own. That probably depends on where the court is and how fussy you are about your food though!

coylemj

10000maniacs wrote: »

Splitting hairs?
A jury makes a legal decision on behalf of the judge based on all the evidence supplied in the trial. It is a LEGAL DECISION based on the evidence.
The verdict supplied by the jury sets a legal precedent.
So it is a legal decision.

It's not a legal decision, you haven't a clue how the system works here or in the UK if you believe that statement. Even more barmy is your claim that the jury's verdict sets a legal precedent - how can it when no two cases are the same?

The jury don't get to tease out legal issues and nothing they decide has any implications for other criminal cases, no matter how similar they may be. All of the legal issues are trashed out by the judge and the lawyers, usually in the absence of the jury since such legal argument often involves a discussion about the admissibility of evidence which may or may not be allowed to be heard by the jury so they are not usually allowed to be present when that argument is going on.

So not alone do jurors not get to make any legal decisions, they are almost never in the courtroom when legal decisions are being made - by the judge.

cml387

I've served on ajury, it wasn't exactly fun but it didn't have any financial implications. As staed if you have good reasons you can be exempted.

Essentially we are citizens of a basically well run state (compared to many). We have rights which we hear about all the time, there are also responsibilities and jury service is one of them.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Can you just lie and say (for example) that your a racist. Or thst you had a pint with the accused once or some other made up story?

Victor

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Can you just lie and say (for example) that your a racist.

You could, but what if all the parties are of the same race, ethnic or other grouping?

Or thst you had a pint with the accused once or some other made up story?

They'll just send you back to the panel and call you for a different jury.

haveringchick

Choc Chip wrote: »

I've not been on a jury but I've heard from a reliable source that dietary requirements might not be accounted for. For example, vegetarians might get a cheese salad but vegans are on their own. That probably depends on where the court is and how fussy you are about your food though!

When your sitting on a jury, your brought out to a restaurant for lunch. Most restaurants now cater for all dietary requirements
The OP is whining because he feels that the jurors should be paid as much as the legal professionals, all of whom studied for at least 5 years before completing an apprenticeship
Being picked for jury duty is a privilege of being s citizen of a free and democratic society
How many millions around the world would jump at the chance

Galadriel

I've been picked for jury duty twice, the first time I didn't get called for a case so went back to work by lunch time each day, the second time I got called for a case that lasted 3 weeks, I found it very interesting and thought we where treated great - we got a 2 course lunch every day, sandwiches if we went past 6pm in our deliberations etc.

carrolls

coylemj wrote: »

It's not a legal decision, you haven't a clue how the system works here or in the UK if you believe that statement. Even more barmy is your claim that the jury's verdict sets a legal precedent - how can it when no two cases are the same?

The jury don't get to tease out legal issues and nothing they decide has any implications for other criminal cases, no matter how similar they may be. All of the legal issues are trashed out by the judge and the lawyers, usually in the absence of the jury since such legal argument often involves a discussion about the admissibility of evidence which may or may not be allowed to be heard by the jury so they are not usually allowed to be present when that argument is going on.

So not alone do jurors not get to make any legal decisions, they are almost never in the courtroom when legal decisions are being made - by the judge.

What?
In a jury trial, he prosecution and defence counsel's present the evidence, question the witnesses, the judge is an impartial moderator on the proceedings. The jury are the only ones who can decide on the guilt or innocence of the defendant based on the evidence presented. The jury makes the ultimate legal decision, nobody else.
The judge then sentences the defendant based on the legal decision made by the jury.

MarkAnthony

carrolls wrote: »

What?
In a jury trial, he prosecution and defence counsel's present the evidence, question the witnesses, the judge is an impartial moderator on the proceedings. The jury are the only ones who can decide on the guilt or innocence of the defendant based on the evidence presented. The jury makes the ultimate legal decision, nobody else.
The judge then sentences the defendant based on the legal decision made by the jury.

Juries are arbiters of fact, Judges of law. Juries do not make legal decisions that's why the jury is lead out every time a legal decision needs to be made.

EDIT: Some expansion on the above.

I wish to present evidence that I obtained (as a member of AGS) that was obtained illegally but not in breach of the defendant's constitutional rights. The jury is lead out and the legal argument happens, the judge decides to allow the evidence. The jury is lead back in and I present my evidence that the defendant is actually an alien from the planet Zargon. The jury decide I'm a looney and discount the evidence I present in arriving at their decision. Legal decision made by Judge, decision on the factual nature of the evidence made by Jury.

EDIT 2: Yes more biscuits is definitely the answer, when isn't it?

Little CuChulainn

carrolls wrote: »

What?
In a jury trial, he prosecution and defence counsel's present the evidence, question the witnesses, the judge is an impartial moderator on the proceedings. The jury are the only ones who can decide on the guilt or innocence of the defendant based on the evidence presented. The jury makes the ultimate legal decision, nobody else.
The judge then sentences the defendant based on the legal decision made by the jury.

Judges make legal decisions, juries make decisions on whether things are true or false. They have no training or specialist knowledge so why would they be paid as highly as those that do?

MarkAnthony

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Judges make legal decisions, juries make decisions on whether things are true or false. They have no training or specialist knowledge so why would they be paid as highly as those that do?

If they're on the dole they're probably being paid more than the barristers :pac:

Actually circuit court and above, those lads (and lasses) are loaded.

esforum

10000maniacs wrote: »

Splitting hairs?
A jury makes a legal decision on behalf of the judge based on all the evidence supplied in the trial. It is a LEGAL DECISION based on the evidence.
The verdict supplied by the jury sets a legal precedent.
So it is a legal decision.

what a load of tosh, put the dictionary away and we can all go back to the judge making legal decisions as the resident expert.

Also, and its an important one, the jury are not the sole caretakers of verdicts. Judges can and do direct that a person be found innocent

In the CCJ the lunch is very good, you can order of the restaurants menu and theres non stop refreshments. Not much in the way of entertainment though, not even a newspaper

MarkAnthony

esforum wrote: »

Not much in the way of entertainment though, not even a newspaper

Less female devil ogling for certain

Carawaystick

haveringchick wrote: »

The OP is whining because he feels that the jurors should be paid as much as the legal professionals, all of whom studied for at least 5 years before completing an apprenticeship

But no matter how much study the legal pros did or do, they are unable to do jury duty...

Choc Chip

haveringchick wrote: »

When your sitting on a jury, your brought out to a restaurant for lunch. Most restaurants now cater for all dietary requirements
The OP is whining because he feels that the jurors should be paid as much as the legal professionals, all of whom studied for at least 5 years before completing an apprenticeship
Being picked for jury duty is a privilege of being s citizen of a free and democratic society
How many millions around the world would jump at the chance

You're not always brought out to a restaurant that caters for everyone - we're not in Dublin. However, this isn't really an issue compared to the comparative payment of jurors. I don't believe that you should lose out for sitting on a jury, but I also don't agree that remuneration should be comparative with legal professionals (if that is more than you normally earn).

Gaygooner

I was called once, picked. The previous trial proceeded so we were discharged the next day. Got two lunches. V pleasant. Wasn't keen on case though- alleged sexual assault of a minor

c montgomery

Choc Chip wrote: »

You're not always brought out to a restaurant that caters for everyone - we're not in Dublin. However, this isn't really an issue compared to the comparative payment of jurors. I don't believe that you should lose out for sitting on a jury, but I also don't agree that remuneration should be comparative with legal professionals (if that is more than you normally earn).

So vegans can bring their own lunch, not really a big deal!
Do you go looking for things to get upset about?

Choc Chip

c montgomery wrote: »

So vegans can bring their own lunch, not really a big deal!
Do you go looking for things to get upset about?

I believe I pointed out in my own post that this "isn't really an issue".

The Sun King

Got called once. Rang the woman at the court and explained my illness was flared up at the time, and the transportation to and from would cost me 5 hours a day and half my social welfare at the time.

No bother, sez she.

Avatar MIA

Only ever called once, and could not attend for work reasons. Disappointed really. Would like to see how the system works, but, as above, not a case dealing with a sexual assault on a child.

So, if you've an excuse you can get out of it. I've also been the one to make contact with the courts to say X person couldn't attend for work reasons.