Farm Accidents

jimd2

Another absolutely tragic accident on a farm this weekend. This is now the 17th fatality in the republic with 5 in the North while last year there were 30 deaths on the island of Ireland from farm accidents.

There are of course unique circumstances on farms that make it very difficult to remain accident free but practices occur on farms that would never in industry where machinery is also used. for instance there is no way a 7 year old lad would get anywhere near to a machine like happened yesterday. I worked in a factory in which we allowed some family in to see around. All of the machines were cordoned off, no one allowed near the equipment.

I have said it many times before but children under 10 should not be allowed anywhere out and about on a farm unless directly accompanied by an adult and not anywhere near moving equipment. There are just so many variables with equipment animals etc.

I realise that young people do need to build up an understanding of how to deal with animals and the workings of farms but the risks are just too great.

I don't know what the answer is but farmers must start to realise that just because they never had an accident by being out on a farm and driving a tractor at 10 yrs old does not take away from the fact that the risks are huge and the more that indulge in risky practices then the probability of tragedies like this increases to totally unacceptable levels.

What do people think? What can be done about this.

greysides

Mod:

Threads about farm safety are regular occurrences after there's been a fatality. The timing and circumstances of this recent accident are particularly tragic....... and there's a 'nag' in me that says this thread is 'unwelcome' (for want of a better word).

However, it's an important subject and it's not the job of a moderator to censor threads.

As at least one member has a connection to the affected family, and there may be more, possibly even the family themselves, I'm going to ask that discussion be considerate and respectful. Thanks.

whelan2

The parents of this child will have to live with the circumstances of his death for the rest of their days. They will be for ever thinking of what should or could have been done. Don't think they need a lecture from people on an anonymous forum. God love them

GardeningGirl

whelan2 wrote:

The parents of this child will have to live with the circumstances of his death for the rest of their days. They will be for ever thinking of what should or could have been done. Don't think they need a lecture from people on an anonymous forum. God love them

Amen. God bless them

I said

whelan2 wrote: »

The parents of this child will have to live with the circumstances of his death for the rest of their days. They will be for ever thinking of what should or could have been done. Don't think they need a lecture from people on an anonymous forum. God love them

Well said

jimd2

whelan2 wrote: »

The parents of this child will have to live with the circumstances of his death for the rest of their days. They will be for ever thinking of what should or could have been done. Don't think they need a lecture from people on an anonymous forum. God love them

Far from me or anyone to lecture as it is horrifically tragic but I think a thread as a sticky in which people talk about and give experiences of safety issues on farms would be of benefit if it raises awareness of the issues. These issues need to be constantly in people's minds not just at the times of a tragedy like this.

If, by being constantly reminded of these issues, one accident is prevented then the discussion is worthwhile. There are some industries where EVERY meeting begins with safety discussion.

Maybe the IFA should take a leadership role in setting up auditing programmes within local areas. Maybe work hand in hand with local industries and get safety professionals to participate in the audits etc. but something must be done or there will be another 20-30 in the next 12 months, many but maybe not all that are preventable.

Maybe not this thread but a sticky called the farm safety thread would be worthwhile in which safety improvements, near incidents, issues people notice etc are discussed. If even one death is prevented next year by these discussions it is worth it even if there are sensitivities associated with individual cases which are horribly tragic.

kowtow

I'd support a sticky thread on farm safety particularly if it contained practical & useful information rather than a to and fro debate about whether family farms should be subject to a new wave of blanket regulation.

But I don't think this is the time or the place.

Like most farming parents here, I can think of little else but the unspeakable tragedy that has befallen the family in question - particularly at this time of year - and the terrible reminder that there, but for the grace of God, could go any of us.

Better left for the New Year I think.

jimd2

kowtow wrote: »

I'd support a sticky thread on farm safety particularly if it contained practical & useful information rather than a to and fro debate about whether family farms should be subject to a new wave of blanket regulation.

But I don't think this is the time or the place.

Like most farming parents here, I can think of little else but the unspeakable tragedy that has befallen the family in question - particularly at this time of year - and the terrible reminder that there, but for the grace of God, could go any of us.

Better left for the New Year I think.

Well said.

greysides

Kovu and I are currently working on an answer to the sticky request. We have to work around certain technical and practical considerations so please bear with us while we see what we can come up with. No promises being made, just that we're trying to sort a solution.

longgonesilver

Sometimes we do not get enough information about accidents. There are always lessons to be learned. The HSA investigates these incidents but as far as I know we cannot access these reports. Not looking for gossip or to attribute blame but to learn what happened and how to avoid it happening again. Access to even a few generalised reports would help to drive home the safety message.

This is a link to reports from the Marine investigations board, not all are fatal. http://www.mcib.ie/reports.7.html?p=1

I don't know if every report is put up. The time and place is mentioned so locals will know who is involved but if you read one it becomes clear what happened, an idea of the reasons why it happened and recommendations to avoid a repeat.

jimd2

Another absolutely tragic accident today but looking back on my first post on this thread why oh why oh why are children under 10 anywhere NEAR moving equipment on a farm? If it was a factory they wouldn't be let anywhere near the equipment whether it was a family business or not.

And before the politically correct posters say this is an inappropriate time to bring this up I say there is never an inappropriate time and if this post manages to change the practices of some farmers then it will have been worth it.

jimd2

According to this article the girl was "working on the farm"
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/tightknit-community-devastated-after-girl-8-killed-in-farm-accident-34933765.html

Councillor Frank Durcan (Ind) said this evening's tragedy took place "only a few miles from the Taoiseach’s home".

“It’s very tragic for any family to have an accident like that.

“There have been a lot of farm deaths involving children and the Government has learned nothing from it.
Councillor Cyril Burke (FG) said: “It’s a very sad situation for the family to lose their eight-year-old while working on the family farm. For the rest of their lives it will be very difficult for them.

“You can never be too careful with children on a farm.”

That could hardly be true that she was "working" on the farm???

_Brian

jimd2 wrote: »

According to this article the girl was "working on the farm"
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/tightknit-community-devastated-after-girl-8-killed-in-farm-accident-34933765.html

Councillor Frank Durcan (Ind) said this evening's tragedy took place "only a few miles from the Taoiseach’s home".

“It’s very tragic for any family to have an accident like that.

“There have been a lot of farm deaths involving children and the Government has learned nothing from it.
Councillor Cyril Burke (FG) said: “It’s a very sad situation for the family to lose their eight-year-old while working on the family farm. For the rest of their lives it will be very difficult for them.

“You can never be too careful with children on a farm.”

That could hardly be true that she was "working" on the farm???

I'm as safety consious in the work environment as any, it was my job for a good while and is a major component of my current role.

I'll just say that there are enough general safety conversations we could be having around farming, the elderly, children and the general risks without starting to analyse and maybe criticise this poor family just in their darkest hours. I've worked in environments where fatalities have happened and it would never ever be discussed openly and definitely not in a public forum like this. That doesn't mean we're ignoring it, it means we're respecting the family and supporting them by not criticising them and desisions they may have made.

Let's keep to general discussion ?

kerry cow

You can never be carefully enough with children and totally agree the farm should be out of bounds for all children under 12 . I have children myself under 12 on the farm and it is wrong .But other friend kids go up and wives expect kids to have time with the dad's etc , so alot of pressure put on fathers to take kids on the farm .but truth be told any child under 12 found on the farm , the person in charge of the farm which is a work place, should be fined substantially .no excuses .
It's the most dangerous place to work .Would a mother leave her under aged go to work with dad on the construction job .no way it wouldn't be allow by anyone .
Parents to blame .end of

J.O. Farmer

It's very easy to say children shouldn't be on farms and that farms are dangerous places. However farming is more than a business it's also a way of life so to impose blanket ban until they're 12 years of age won't work either. Children need to see a bit of what is going on so that some will develop an interest and some will hate it. Try taking a 12 year old out on the farm and the novelty will probably wear off fairly quickly.
More what needs to happen is that the dangers are seen generally and not just with children. Children obviously shouldn't be moving bulls but what's dangerous about feeding a pet lamb. The problem is that the same accidents are happening every year across age groups so it's a discussion around safety for all that' required not knee jerk ban kids approaches. Next week it could be a 70 year old and are we going to say ban the over 65s when very few farmers fully retire because it's not just business it's a way of life.

History Queen

kerry cow wrote: »

You can never be carefully enough with children and totally agree the farm should be out of bounds for all children under 12 . I have children myself under 12 on the farm and it is wrong .But other friend kids go up and wives expect kids to have time with the dad's etc , so alot of pressure put on fathers to take kids on the farm .but truth be told any child under 12 found on the farm , the person in charge of the farm which is a work place, should be fined substantially .no excuses .
It's the most dangerous place to work .Would a mother leave her under aged go to work with dad on the construction job .no way it wouldn't be allow by anyone .
Parents to blame .end of

I think that is an incredibly insensitive and inflammatory comment to make. Children help out in the family business up and down this country everyday, in shops/restaurants etc. Many farming families work together on the farm. I don't think it is fair to advocate a blanket ban.

kerry cow

If these children were not on the farm they would not have been involved in these fatalities .who is to blame then ? Has to be the person in charge . Should be prosecuted as it is a work place not a play ground .If it happened in play school heads would roll . Ban under 12s

History Queen

kerry cow wrote: »

If these children were not on the farm they would not have been involved in these fatalities .who is to blame then ? Has to be the person in charge . Should be prosecuted as it is a work place not a play ground .If it happened in play school heads would roll . Ban under 12s

They're called "accidents" not "on-purposes" for a reason. Going by your logic everyone who lost their life or was injured in a road crash was to blame themselves because if they were not in the car they would not have been injured.

Sometimes there is no blame, no reason. Sometimes it is just awful luck, a freak accident, an unforeseen and unavoidable tradgedy.

Can you at least be cognisant of the fact that this is a public forum and the poor people affected by the recent farm tragedies may see this?

ganmo

Kc feel free to ban whoever you like from your own farm issuing blanket bans could end up with a situation where a farmer might have to choose between leaving their kid in the house alone while they go and check on a calving cow or something that needs their attention.
Is that responsible either?

jimd2

History Queen wrote: »

I think that is an incredibly insensitive and inflammatory comment to make. Children help out in the family business up and down this country everyday, in shops/restaurants etc. Many farming families work together on the farm. I don't think it is fair to advocate a blanket ban.

Under 10's I think you nearly have to. Maybe sometimes supervised walking around when the tractor and other machinery is not being used.

jimd2

History Queen wrote: »

They're called "accidents" not "on-purposes" for a reason. Going by your logic everyone who lost their life or was injured in a road crash was to blame themselves because if they were not in the car they would not have been injured.

Sometimes there is no blame, no reason. Sometimes it is just awful luck, a freak accident, an unforeseen and unavoidable tradgedy.

Can you at least be cognisant of the fact that this is a public forum and the poor people affected by the recent farm tragedies may see this?

I appreciate that, I just think that this is the one time it is brought into a stark reality and the tragedy may convince others to be more careful in future.

kowtow

kerry cow wrote: »

You can never be carefully enough with children and totally agree the farm should be out of bounds for all children under 12 . I have children myself under 12 on the farm and it is wrong .But other friend kids go up and wives expect kids to have time with the dad's etc , so alot of pressure put on fathers to take kids on the farm .but truth be told any child under 12 found on the farm , the person in charge of the farm which is a work place, should be fined substantially .no excuses .
It's the most dangerous place to work .Would a mother leave her under aged go to work with dad on the construction job .no way it wouldn't be allow by anyone .
Parents to blame .end of

As much as I am sure you would like to see a debate on this - and indeed it would be, at another time, a fit topic for debate - any discussion would be pretty empty without other farming parents contributions and I'm not sure you are going to raise many of those right now and right here.

I know that you are a parent yourself, but for myself - and I suspect for others here - the subject is far too raw and already occupies my thoughts enough without a to and fro on a public bulletin board.

kerry cow

I responded to a thread someone else posted .it is not me who wants to debate .just personal opinion as a parent who does take under 12s on the farm .I often remark to my oh and my mother that a farm is no place for children .and yes I have been guilty of having accidents myself on the farm and for that reason they should best kept out of the yard . Farmers need to relies how dangerous it is .don't think I don't feel sick at the thought of anyone getting injuries on a farm .It can happen to any one .but to use the excuse that they would have to stay home alone otherwise is not valid , as like anything else if they were not allowed there in first place then find someone to take care of them or let the other half take them .I am sure where the oh is will not be as dangerous .
I take kids on farm as little as possible and when they are older if they don't like farming so be it .I am not narrow minded to think if they don't go farming when they are 10 . "Then we will never get a young farmer " .
They are children and as a parent we are responsible for them .If you feel what you do is best practice that's fine with me .
Just my personal opinion .not raming down on any one .
I do feel sad that all these sad moments can be reduced , with though .
But I do see some parents are reckless with 9 and 10 year old driving 150hp tractors and trailers and milk cows .etc .those people worries me

einn32

Discussion is over. Time to up the penalties I think. Life is priceless.

_Brian

Just in pure safety terms it's considered that there is no real un-preventable accident.
Every "accident" is essentially an unexpected result of a chain of events. With proper planning, equipment, training and attitude what we call accidents don't happen, and if it does happen then with proper investigation and education there is no real need for it to ever happen again.

Take the example of an accident where contact with an unguarded pto shaft causes serious injury, now, the obvious learning is that guards prevent such injuries and so a guard should be fitted to each shaft and then never used without it. That would prevent another such incident. In reality they get broken, taken off or whatever and on most farms implements with bare shafts are being used, it makes no sense, but that's what's happening.

In industry there are regular reviews of work environments, equipment, training and tools to ensure they are safe, most tasks are documented and reviewed by trained personnel to ensure they are done in the safest possible way. Companies take time to do this, facilitate employees to go on training, they stop what are considered tasks and ensure its only completed when a safe method is found. This is a safety culture, where everyone is engaged in safety because everyone knows it saves lives and prevents injuries.

Farming has essentially no safety culture. No time is taken to make equipment safe. No independent review of farms and their equipment.

The first thing to be changed in farming is the notion that safety isn't the number 1 priority every single time you leave the house, and that safety involves everyone living or working on the farm.

I can't believe the insurance companies haven't jumped on this bandwagon. They are insuring the industry where the most deaths in the workplace occur, where childrens and the elderly die in the workplace - and yet when you review the policy it's all about the value of the hayshed rather any word of safety !!

Odelay

I think this thread should be closed for a while, or maybe we could post "what I did to make my farm safer today" kinda like redandstimpy did with his crush on an out farm??
More of "this is the right thing to do, what do you think" rather than "this should do it for now".

This is no comment on the family abovementioned, they have paid the ultimate price and may well have had the best safety practices available, we don't know what went wrong.

Keepgrowing

As a father and a farmer I can only sympathise with anyone who's family has been touched by such events.

May I suggest we all take 30 minutes to assess the risks on our farms tomorrow and follow up by acting on any weakness found. It just could be enough to save another family this unimaginable heartbreak

rangler1

Keepgrowing wrote: »

As a father and a farmer I can only sympathise with anyone who's family has been touched by such events.

May I suggest we all take 30 minutes to assess the risks on our farms tomorrow and follow up by acting on any weakness found. It just could be enough to save another family this unimaginable heartbreak

IFA farm safety day was 21st july and like everything else (and three killed on farms since} it was obviously ignored.
Yet posts on here say IFA should be doing something.....there's enough children killed now, H and S should now impose serious fines like in every other business

_Brian

rangler1 wrote: »

IFA farm safety day was 21st july and like everything else (and three killed on farms since} it was obviously ignored.
Yet posts on here say IFA should be doing something.....there's enough children killed now, H and S should now impose serious fines like in every other business

It's the problem when an organisation discredits itself to that extent, even the positive messages are ignored.

I'm not sure jumping to fines is the answer, they are a reactionary punitive measure and by the time you have an investigation and issue a fine the incident is long over and the damage is done, sort of bolting the stable door after the horse is long gone.

As unpopular as it seems I think education is the way forward. Training similar to the safe pass should be mandatory for each farm, farms who don't complete it could have HSA audits. We need to get people thinking right and education is how we start this. Much more safety auditing in general needs to happen, farmers know full well that they essential ace no chance of a 3rd party audit. Audits with proper recommendations which can be enforced would be positive too.

greysides

This is a subject that warrants discussion. Being a misfortunate topic, H&S on farms really only is talked about in the aftermath of a tragedy. So please folks, do be a bit sensitive in what you post.

The parents have been been punished with a life sentence, I don't think they need us to add to it or a court to fine them. Awareness and prevention seems to be key to me.

I was brought up on farms during holidays and around machinery, like all of here who were raised similarly we have survived. There is risk associated with anything we do. If kids are playing in a park instead of helping on a farm they could be at risk of drowning, abduction etc too. There is some sort of balance that needs to be established. Adults die on farms too.

freedominacup

_Brian wrote: »

It's the problem when an organisation discredits itself to that extent, even the positive messages are ignored.

I'm not sure jumping to fines is the answer, they are a reactionary punitive measure and by the time you have an investigation and issue a fine the incident is long over and the damage is done, sort of bolting the stable door after the horse is long gone.

As unpopular as it seems I think education is the way forward. Training similar to the safe pass should be mandatory for each farm, farms who don't complete it could have HSA audits. We need to get people thinking right and education is how we start this. Much more safety auditing in general needs to happen, farmers know full well that they essential ace no chance of a 3rd party audit. Audits with proper recommendations which can be enforced would be positive too.

If farming doesn't actually get proactive on this we are going to get hosed with an over reaction. A first step is a farming safe pass. Get a mentality of identifying risk into people's heads. Linking h&s to any other area of farm management as every govt interaction now attempts to do has to stop. All it is doing is putting a negative link in farmers heads between h&s and other problem areas. Farms are work places. I've been guilty of bringing kids out when they simply shouldn't have been there. I stopped a couple of years ago. My oldest lads are in their teens now and do a few hours each on alternate days. They come to do specific jobs under supervision that they are competent at. The younger ones are never in the yard. I made mistakes and got away clean but I shudder sometimes now at some of the things the older ones did.

whelan2

OH is doing his cpc course at the minute. Originally he was giving out about having to go and what would he learn after 30 years driving lorries. He is amazed that a 16 year old can get a tractor license and drive heavy machinery with out any course being done. The cpc course has opened his eyes to many things he never thought about. Also as a mother of an 8 year old I can't imagine what the parents of the 8 year old in mayo are going through.

rangler1

_Brian wrote: »

It's the problem when an organisation discredits itself to that extent, even the positive messages are ignored.

I'm not sure jumping to fines is the answer, they are a reactionary punitive measure and by the time you have an investigation and issue a fine the incident is long over and the damage is done, sort of bolting the stable door after the horse is long gone.

As unpopular as it seems I think education is the way forward. Training similar to the safe pass should be mandatory for each farm, farms who don't complete it could have HSA audits. We need to get people thinking right and education is how we start this. Much more safety auditing in general needs to happen, farmers know full well that they essential ace no chance of a 3rd party audit. Audits with proper recommendations which can be enforced would be positive too.

Sorry, not good enough excuse for outright carelessness, no point in pussy footing and making excuses anymore when lives are being lost.
Every other business is fined well for this sort of carelessnes, why not farmers, threats of fines is working well on building sites

freedominacup

rangler1 wrote: »

Sorry, not good enough excuse for outright carelessness, no point in pussy footing and making excuses anymore when lives are being lost.
Every other business is fined well for this sort of carelessnes, why not farmers, threats of fines is working well on building sites

It's not fines rangler. They don't bother with fines. They just close down the site for a period. The work to correct the problems can be done. They come back after a period to check and site can be reopened if all correct. Minds get very focused when cashflow gets compromised whether it be lack of sales or stage payments not being able to be drawn.

If I was the hsa and wanted to make some headlines I'd do a blitz around the end of Mar issue a blast of closure notices of four to six weeks and then publicly announce there would be a widespread series of inspections starting late Apr into May and the upshot of failed inspections would be no silage cutting until problems were sorted and closure notices lifted. No need for fines, judges, lawyers or courts. Breaking a closure order is a criminal offence afaik and that's a matter for the gardai.

kowtow

Like others I see attitude (or rather a change in attitude) as the key, rather than regulation. If regulation is required to change an attitude then so be it, but I would suggest that if the well publicised accidents and deaths of young and old which occur depressingly regularly don't make people think then the threat of a fine won't either. The problem is that "it won't happen to me, that's all nonsense" is deeply ingrained, particularly in Irish culture.

I'm no safety fiend, by a country mile, and guilty of plenty of carelessness myself but I'll confess to being a little shocked by the slightly gung-ho, rules are nonsense, attitude my 15yo seems to pick up around the place - and this is a boy who has been around plenty of complex dangers, helicopters, avalanches, high mountain powder skiing, for many years and has always been pretty intelligent and responsible about risk.

Now there is no question that some of this is adolescent rebellion - big talk - i notice if i watch quietly from a distance when he is working alone that he is a very careful operator, and a very accurate one, but still I'd like to think that it was the teenagers telling the parents off for dangerous practice rather than the other way around - the same way they do for smoking, drinking (and drink driving, back in the day) - because when you see that you know that a real change in culture is on the way.

In the meantime the problems with regulation are legion - so many of us live inside the boundary of the farm yard, we are a nation of family farmers, and handling livestock and to some extent machinery are all a part of that from an early age. Easy to say, difficult to do in practice - for example whilst we might think that stopping children under twelve having charge of dangerous farm animals is a good thing, but if we legislated for it the Irish showjumping and dressage squads would be in a sorry state...

ganmo

freedominacup wrote: »

It's not fines rangler. They don't bother with fines. They just close down the site for a period. The work to correct the problems can be done. They come back after a period to check and site can be reopened if all correct. Minds get very focused when cashflow gets compromised whether it be lack of sales or stage payments not being able to be drawn.

If I was the hsa and wanted to make some headlines I'd do a blitz around the end of Mar issue a blast of closure notices of four to six weeks and then publicly announce there would be a widespread series of inspections starting late Apr into May and the upshot of failed inspections would be no silage cutting until problems were sorted and closure notices lifted. No need for fines, judges, lawyers or courts. Breaking a closure order is a criminal offence afaik and that's a matter for the gardai.

it'd be very hard to shut down a farm like that. from a legal perspective the farmer still has to care for his animals and if he thinks one needs a vet he has to do that.

jimd2

I do realise that teenagers need to get exposure to the family farm so they will see if they like the work and also get a feel for it and build up some experience.

What about an organisation like Teagasc organising FREE summer camps for different age groups so that teenagers from a farming background can get some experience in a safe managed environment? Or local branches of Macra or the IFA arranging something that is organised and supervised by a number of farmers pooling their knowledge and resources. i bet you that if any of the areas that have seen tragedies like this knew that this training would have possibly prevented an accident like this the they would go for it in a heartbeat.

_Brian

ganmo wrote: »

it'd be very hard to shut down a farm like that. from a legal perspective the farmer still has to care for his animals and if he thinks one needs a vet he has to do that.

It's very hard to implement the same reactions to farms as to industry. I'm not saying there should be no ramifications but it needs different thinking.
There should be much more auditing, instruction, education rather than fines and closure of farms. More carrot than stick, but a bit of stick too.

Many farmers are blind to the dangers in their own yard. Having someone come in and point them out may be enough to focus them.

Maybe some safety walks similar to the knowledge transfer where a group of farmers take turns in hosting and everyone constructively has input.
With the knowledge that the group will be back in 4-6 months you'd be surprised how many lads will react and start to rectify stuff. This peer pressure has worked for me in the past where we would have groups in a factory audit the working area of the other groups and provide feedback, it's fairly cost free and you'd be surprised how well it works.

kowtow

jimd2 wrote: »

What about an organisation like Teagasc organising FREE summer camps for different age groups so that teenagers from a farming background can get some experience in a safe managed environment? Or local branches of Macra or the IFA arranging something that is organised and supervised by a number of farmers pooling their knowledge and resources. i bet you that if any of the areas that have seen tragedies like this knew that this training would have possibly prevented an accident like this the they would go for it in a heartbeat.

I think that's a great place to start.

I saw something the other day about tractor training, in the North I think, where kids got a certificate for participating. It was a summer camp of some sort - possibly DAFM.

My feeling would be do it even younger than might be obvious, while boys (in particular) are still positive about the idea of it and don't just dismiss it as a "school" thing to be tolerated then ignored. It's really difficult to change the culture of young (men) in particular, and in Ireland we're a bit behind with it I think, but it would be a wonderful thing. Kids badger their parents endlessly when they realise smoking might bring them to an early end, if only they could take it on board that a slurry tank or an uncovered PTO might be even more effective they could yet be the best ambassadors for farm safety we have.

Incidentally Irish television ads (and radio ads) for road, and water, safety are, in my experience, among the best in the world - punchy and very well made - it might be worth having more of them for farming. Quite apart from the safety element, plastering the airwaves with them can't but help remind consumers that family farmers are behind the food they eat.

And if all else fails, fall back on the great standby of paying farms to improve safety. I was really unimpressed that we were unable to access the previous farm safety scheme because we don't claim any SFP - the little bureacratic irritations should be taken out of schemes like that and farm safety equipment should be made 100% tax deductible in the current year, with heavy promotions when the tax season approaches. Many of us are experts at optimising a farm for grant aid purposes, so why not harness that energy and knowledge in the pursuit of farm safety.

ganmo

_Brian wrote: »

It's very hard to implement the same reactions to farms as to industry. I'm not saying there should be no ramifications but it needs different thinking.
There should be much more auditing, instruction, education rather than fines and closure of farms. More carrot than stick, but a bit of stick too.

Many farmers are blind to the dangers in their own yard. Having someone come in and point them out may be enough to focus them.

Maybe some safety walks similar to the knowledge transfer where a group of farmers take turns in hosting and everyone constructively has input.
With the knowledge that the group will be back in 4-6 months you'd be surprised how many lads will react and start to rectify stuff. This peer pressure has worked for me in the past where we would have groups in a factory audit the working area of the other groups and provide feedback, it's fairly cost free and you'd be surprised how well it works.

I agree external eyes always see things that yours have gotten used to (or don't want to see). but the question is how to get those external eyes on farm without waving the stick around too much

I see risks at home that dad doesn't and visa versa but I'm sure someone else would be able to see others

rangler1

kowtow wrote: »

I think that's a great place to start.

I saw something the other day about tractor training, in the North I think, where kids got a certificate for participating. It was a summer camp of some sort - possibly DAFM.

My feeling would be do it even younger than might be obvious, while boys (in particular) are still positive about the idea of it and don't just dismiss it as a "school" thing to be tolerated then ignored. It's really difficult to change the culture of young (men) in particular, and in Ireland we're a bit behind with it I think, but it would be a wonderful thing. Kids badger their parents endlessly when they realise smoking might bring them to an early end, if only they could take it on board that a slurry tank or an uncovered PTO might be even more effective they could yet be the best ambassadors for farm safety we have.

Incidentally Irish television ads (and radio ads) for road, and water, safety are, in my experience, among the best in the world - punchy and very well made - it might be worth having more of them for farming. Quite apart from the safety element, plastering the airwaves with them can't but help remind consumers that family farmers are behind the food they eat.

And if all else fails, fall back on the great standby of paying farms to improve safety. I was really unimpressed that we were unable to access the previous farm safety scheme because we don't claim any SFP - the little bureacratic irritations should be taken out of schemes like that and farm safety equipment should be made 100% tax deductible in the current year, with heavy promotions when the tax season approaches. Many of us are experts at optimising a farm for grant aid purposes, so why not harness that energy and knowledge in the pursuit of farm safety.

Skillnet will subsidise any course you think up, they'll work with any group, best of luck in getting farmers to attend.

freedominacup

ganmo wrote: »

it'd be very hard to shut down a farm like that. from a legal perspective the farmer still has to care for his animals and if he thinks one needs a vet he has to do that.

You're right about the above however contractors do not have to come in, milk lorries do not have to come in, bulk deliveries/any deliveries do not have to come in, AI technicians do not have to come in. Minds would be concentrated. Easy enough to police really. It's about deterrence. When they find problems they keep that site under strict scrutiny. The message gets around. The numbers being killed and injured have to be reduced. Why do people see it as such an imposition?

kowtow

rangler1 wrote: »

Skillnet will subsidise any course you think up, they'll work with any group, best of luck in getting farmers to attend.

You wouldn't be trying to get farmers to attend, you'd be getting farm families to send their younger teenagers off for a few days in the summer holidays, for free. I don't see that being so difficult.

whelan2

RSA reckon the ifa is more powerful than them or the guards, they proposed that farmers should do a similar course to the cpc but IFA said no. The guys doing the cpc course give out contantly about farmers .

freedominacup

whelan2 wrote: »

RSA reckon the ifa is more powerful than them or the guards, they proposed that farmers should do a similar course to the cpc but IFA said no. The guys doing the cpc course give out contantly about farmers .

What's cpc Whelan?

ganmo

Certificate of Professional Competence

whelan2

freedominacup wrote: »

What's cpc Whelan?

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwim8_C25KfOAhUDKcAKHV3rBBQQFggvMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rsa.ie%2Fen%2FRSA%2FProfessional-Drivers%2FDriver-Hours%2FGetting-your-CPC%2F&usg=AFQjCNHb9alreS3TCiR8I0rY_zBH6ET8Cg&sig2=60JhQfy0I39x4tvG0IGclw&bvm=bv.128617741,d.d24

rangler1

whelan2 wrote: »

RSA reckon the ifa is more powerful than them or the guards, they proposed that farmers should do a similar course to the cpc but IFA said no. The guys doing the cpc course give out contantly about farmers .

One thing I learnt in IFA was never to agree to anything, you can only improve your lot,

whelan2

rangler1 wrote: »

One thing I learnt in IFA was never to agree to anything, you can only improve your lot,

Do you not think educating farmers is worth agreeing about, as I said earlier oh went to the course assuming it was sh!te , he learnt a hell of alot. All new straps and ratchets bought on monday morning.....

Keepgrowing

rangler1 wrote: »

Skillnet will subsidise any course you think up, they'll work with any group, best of luck in getting farmers to attend.

It's the mothers you need to target

rangler1

whelan2 wrote: »

Do you not think educating farmers is worth agreeing about, as I said earlier oh went to the course assuming it was sh!te , he learnt a hell of alot. All new straps and ratchets bought on monday morning.....

Pofessional lorry drivers are different, miniscule percentage of them kill people every year for the numbers that are on the road, and look at the way the maintain their kit