32A 7.2 kW chargepoint installed

Rafal

My charge point has just been installed. It is a 32A type 1 tethered (Leaf) multi mode (also has a 13A socket) Rolec in a nice terracotta colour. It was a little bit more complex, as I had it installed on our driveway, away from the building, which meant burying extra long armoured cable, erecting a nice custom-made wooden pedestal, and also adding a priority device at the fuse board next to the existing 40A fuse that supplies our steam shower unit.

I was able to negotiate with the installers for the cost to be reduced in lieu of taking the ESB 16A device. The discount was worth €400, and saved me from having to have an unnecessary second device, while giving me something from the grant that I have qualified for.

If you are thinking of having a 32A charge point, do consider negotiating with the installers, it worked for me.

axe2grind

Well done and thanks for sharing

pwurple

How mch did it cost you in the end?

Any photo?

Excellent, As part of the ESB installation there was no way in Hell I'd get the 32 amp But I am going to install it next year myself, luckily I pre wired the existing EVSE for 40 amps.

Rafal

As requested, here are photos of the newly installed unit, on a pedestal. The total cost was €1300, of which €350 bought the custom-made pedestal made by a friendly carpenter, who has also laid the armoured cable under the garden, and lifted and replaced pavement slabs. The LED PIR light was €50. The €900 bought the Rolec unit, a pretty long (20m or so) armoured cable suitable for 40A, a priority device, and all costs of the installation of the above—it took a full day and a half to do all the works plus a quick survey visit. This is after the "discount" of approx €400 to allow for the ESB's worth of the SEAI grant. I have overpaid about €100 for the Rolec, but this way I have it all on one invoice and everything is covered by the installer's warranty, as well as their certificate.

Now I need that 30 kWh Leaf to test it!

Rolec 32A EVSE Type 1 Multimode in Ireland (Side View).jpg

Rolec 32A EVSE Type 1 Multimode in Ireland (Front View).jpg

k123456

pardon my ignorance, whats the advantage please of

32A 7.2 kW

Excellent, looks super !

You'll really appreciate the 6.6 kw charger, especially with the 30 kwh ! It will be handy while out and about too plugged into the standard street charge points !

k123456

k123456 wrote: »

pardon my ignorance, whats the advantage please of

32A 7.2 kW

It's not quiet 32 amps, 7 kw , the "optional charger in the leaf is available as 6.6 Kw" the charge point above is rated for 32 amps 7kw. but the ESB install only the free 16 amp even if you are willing to pay extra for the 32 amp or not you won't get it unless you buy it and have it installed yourself.

It means charging twice as fast from home with the installed 32 amp charge point. Having an EV means the ability to charge as fast as possible when you "need it" is a major plus, most people won't spend the 900 and fair enough if your budget is tight then that's different but if you can afford it it's highly valuable. Though most people simply won't spend the money on it regardless.

You'll manage charging at 16 amps for most of the time over night but if you find yourself getting home on a low charge the 6.6 Kw will give you about 35 Kms per hr compared to about 17 kms with the standard 3.3 Kw.

The 6.6 Kw means that you will get a decent charge in 2 hrs compared to the 3.3 from the standard street charge points which means in a lot of cases you can go to a charge point in town and after two hrs it probably has enough charge to get you home without looking for and waiting at a fast charge point, there also could be someone waiting at that charge point and you could have to wait for up to an hour.

While I don't plug in into standard street charge points a lot any time it saves me waiting at a fast charger is money well spent.

On longer motorway trips you probably won't get away without using the fast chargers on route but then when you get into town you can plug into a standard street charger and get a significant charge in 2 hrs or even an hour on SCP can mean much less time needed on the fast charger.

Having lived with the leaf for almost a year now the 6.6 Kw charger is something I would not do without.

Most people will say don't waste the 900 Euro's because they don't have the 6.6 Kw and don't realise the benefits because they're used to spending countless minutes at fast chargers and tolerate it and all 2011 - 132 built cars only had the 3.3 Kw. Maybe some people don't drive a lot and the over night charge will do them 2 days in this case I'd say fair enough but is it better to have it than want it for the sake of 900 Euro's when buying a new car ? If I were buying 2nd hand I wouldn't buy the 3.3 Kw so something to think about if buying outright and selling it on.

Dealers also say that the 6.6 Kw is a waste but this is because 99% of leafs ordered by dealers in Ireland don't have the 3.3 Kw because they want to keep the list price down as low as possible , dealers are promoting fast charger abuse by saying "just use the free fast chargers" but as I said, what's your time worth waiting at fast chargers ?

KCross

Mad_lad
I'm a newbie so I'll add to the silly questions! How does the 3.3kw leaf benefit from the fast chargers that you speak of if the leaf doesn't have the 6.6kw charger. How does that work?

From what I can gather there are different types of street charges... Fast and slow? Why aren't they all fast? Can every car use both?

Also, since the ESB will only put in the 16amp chargers at home, what is involved,electrically, in ensuring that the connections, wiring etc support 32amp so that all you have to do in a few years time is to change the charger on the wall?

KCross

KCross

KCross wrote: »

Mad_lad
I'm a newbie so I'll add to the silly questions! How does the 3.3kw leaf benefit from the fast chargers that you speak of if the leaf doesn't have the 6.6kw charger. How does that work?

From what I can gather there are different types of street charges... Fast and slow? Why aren't they all fast? Can every car use both?

Also, since the ESB will only put in the 16amp chargers at home, what is involved,electrically, in ensuring that the connections, wiring etc support 32amp so that all you have to do in a few years time is to change the charger on the wall?

KCross

Hi Kcross,

The fast chargers are 45-50 kw DC chargers and all leafs have a fast charge port apart from a few 2013 XE Basic leafs and maybe 2014 which the fast charge port was optional.

The slow charge points or standard charge points are actually 22 Kw capable but only the Renault Zoe with it's 44 Kw ac on board charger and Tesla Model S with optional twin 10 Kw (20 Kw total) can use them to their full potential.

These charge points can charge the leaf at 3.3 kw or 6.6 kw depending on what charger you get.

Both the 3.3 Kw and 6.6 Kw leaf can charge from the fast chargers via the DC port.

The advantage of the 6.6 is you can get a charge at home or from a slow charge point in half the time. We'll call the scp's for handiness.


With the 6.6 charging isn't so slow from the scp's. and can mean by the time you get back to the car there is enough range to get home or at least spend far less time on a fast charger.

I'm not here to tell people the 6.6 is convenient just to get people to spend 900 extra, I've had the leaf nearly a year now and I don't use the 6.6 at public charge points a lot but I greatly appreciate it when I use it. There are people who would appreciate it a lot more than me who might take the leaf on longer runs them me a lot more often and while you can't escape fast charging on a long motorway run it does mean far fewer trips to the fast chargers and hanging around for 30 mins or 1 hr if someone just got to the fast charger before you. If you fell it's not for you or you really don't want to spend 900 Extra than that is absolutely fine. You can live without it.

There are many trips you take that will be in rage of the leaf to the destination you are going, plug in at scp and it's charged or enough to get home or at least enough to greatly reduce the time you need to spend on a fast charger.

The greatest benefit to me would be the ability to charge faster at home, if I'm low on charge and need to top up much faster , it will mean I will not have to go to the Carlow fast charger which is 10 K away and that's 20 K if I've to come back this direction so that's 20 Kms from 80% gone already or roughly 20-22% so the handiness of the 6.6 at home for me will be tremendous, a lot of people who live local in Naas and are close to the DC charger are addicted to it because they haven't the ability to charge at home and /or want free electricity. I really don't encourage this because waiting at fast chargers gets old very fast I guarantee it ! It's not just Naas but that's the place I fast charged the most and it drove me nuts.

If you want the ability to charge at 6.6 kw at home then you need to wire 40 amp cable from the consumer unit to the charger destination. Depending on the route you will have to get advice on the exact type of cable to run. Then all that has to be done if you intend to upgrade is chance the charge point on the wall and the RCBO in the consumer unit from 16 amps to 32. The ESB contractor may run this for you if you buy the cable, if it's more than 10 meters you'd be better off running it yourself.

Rafal

KCross wrote: »

Mad_lad
Also, since the ESB will only put in the 16amp chargers at home, what is involved,electrically, in ensuring that the connections, wiring etc support 32amp so that all you have to do in a few years time is to change the charger on the wall?
KCross

ESB do not install anything, they use 3rd party contractors, with whom you can negotiate. This thread is exactly about this, explaining how I got a 32A charge point installed and had part of its cost paid by ESB.

If you are thinking of 3.3 vs 6.6 for a Leaf, let me weigh in: go for the 6.6 if you can afford it. Half of Ireland will become "fast" to you.

Rafal

Rafal wrote: »

If you are thinking of 3.3 vs 6.6 for a Leaf, let me weigh in: go for the 6.6 if you can afford it. Half of Ireland will become "fast" to you.

Exactly !

People over rate the fast chargers and while they can be quiet convenient and fast the 6.6 in many ways can work out much, much faster and more convenient in the sense that you don't have to wait around after you do your business, you come back to the car and it's charged enough to get back home.

I can see the usefulness of the fast chargers for those with 3.3 Kw leafs but if you can afford it it makes no sense not to go for the 6.6 Kw.

Here is another thing to do, go to the charge point map.

https://www.esb.ie/electric-cars/electric-car-charging/electric-car-charge-point-map.jsp

Now select standard charge points, then deselect the option and select ChaDeMo which is the fast charger that the leaf uses, now compare the amount of DC V standard points.

But even if there were as many DC points, you still have to wait for a charge but in a lot of cases too you might only need a 10 min charge and in that case it's not so bad. 10 mins might get you an extra 40-50 Kms range. Unless there is some git that demands more than an 80% charge then you could find yourself waiting 45-50 mins before you even get to charge.

But either way the 6.6 is damn useful to have and I wouldn't be without it now.

Chrischarger

Rafal wrote: »

adding a priority device at the fuse board next to the existing 40A fuse that supplies our steam shower unit.

Most Consumer units are fitted with a 63Amp main fuse.
An electric shower and 6.6KW charging exceeds this 63A so you could end up with a dead car, a cold shower and a callout charge from the ESB if their fuse blows first (Some of the ESB fuses are rated 63A, the same as in your consumer unit).

A charger with built in timer can help, especially if benefitting from night-rate.

Rafal

Chrischarger wrote: »

Most Consumer units are fitted with a 63Amp main fuse.
An electric shower and 6.6KW charging exceeds this 63A so you could end up with a dead car, a cold shower and a callout charge from the ESB if their fuse blows first (Some of the ESB fuses are rated 63A, the same as in your consumer unit).

A charger with built in timer can help, especially if benefitting from night-rate.

I respectfully disagree—perhaps you are not familiar with the functioning of a priority device? It is set to always permit the steam shower unit to function, cutting out the power to the car charge point if needed. Once the steam unit is off, the power is restored to the charge point. In other words, the steam unit has the priority over the chargepoint and at no point in time the two can draw simultaneously, therefore never exceeding our house's supply.

Our installation is working well, it has been tested under the fullest load of all possible devices turned on, and it comes with an ESB safety certificate. The car can charge any time the steam generator unit is not on, which means more than 99% of the time. I seriously doubt my car charging will ever suffer from a 10 minute interruption caused by the occasional use of the steam shower unit.

I do not believe that your suggested solution of a timer could possibly benefit me in any way that would better than the solution I have installed. If you have any doubts about this, feel free to ask, I'd be happy to explain it further.

32 amps or about 7 kW is only about half a normal domestic supply.

Most people with electric showers that heat the water probably don't need them and most likely plenty of hot water in the hot water cylinder.

Pumped showers only are far more efficient and use hot water already in the tank.

I don't think it's too difficult to upgrade a single phase supply anyway.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

32 amps or about 7 kW is only about half a normal domestic supply.

Most people with electric showers that heat the water probably don't need them and most likely plenty of hot water in the hot water cylinder.

Pumped showers only are far more efficient and use hot water already in the tank.

Only if you happen to be heating the water as a by product. Most DHW is lost through lack of use

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

Only if you happen to be heating the water as a by product. Most DHW is lost through lack of use

I think most people in Ireland heat their homes via oil/gas or solid fuel so there would rarely be a time there is no hot water, it might be wasted but there are so many homes that have completely inadequately regulated heating systems that there is rarely a shortage of hot water because the heating is either on or off with very little control.

I have seen people use the immersion to heat the whole tank for a single 5 min shower instead of using the sink or boos function, so on that bases and electric shower would save far more money but most people don't need a shower that heats the water. I love the pressure from my pumped shower I did have an electric shower years ago and the pressure was useless.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

I think most people in Ireland heat their homes via oil/gas or solid fuel so there would rarely be a time there is no hot water, it might be wasted but there are so many homes that have completely inadequately regulated heating systems that there is rarely a shortage of hot water because the heating is either on or off with very little control.

I have seen people use the immersion to heat the whole tank for a single 5 min shower instead of using the sink or boos function, so on that bases and electric shower would save far more money but most people don't need a shower that heats the water. I love the pressure from my pumped shower I did have an electric shower years ago and the pressure was useless.

I don't run my heating from about June through to September , given the inefficiency of heating water in a big tank just to use a portion of it, electric showers are very convienent and cost effective

But the fact is , all this is irelevsnt to EVSE installation

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

I don't run my heating from about June through to September , given the inefficiency of heating water in a big tank just to use a portion of it, electric showers are very convienent and cost effective

But the fact is , all this is irelevsnt to EVSE installation

TBH if showers had the option to heat the water or have pumped only would be the best of both worlds.

But you're correct this is irrelevant to EVSE installation,

Back to my point, there is probably very few installations where the 32 amp evse can't be installed.

heliguyheliguy

Deleted User wrote: »

TBH if showers had the option to heat the water or have pumped only would be the best of both worlds.

But you're correct this is irrelevant to EVSE installation,

Back to my point, there is probably very few installations where the 32 amp evse can't be installed.

Where do you get your information from?
As an Electrician with 25 years experience I have yet to come across a domestic installation that is not capable of supplying 32amp services, the type of service is irrelevant water heaters, showers, room heaters and evse's are all within the ability of any domestic supply I have encountered. As long as the regs are followed the worst that would happen is a breaker would trip, unlikely as that is; it's hardly the end of the world.
I could see the esb running into grid supply problems if tens of thousands of people ran out tomorrow and bought ev's and tried to plug them all into the the same substation, this problem seems to a lot further away than most of us would like and even if the pace of uptake grew to meet eu commitments it is very unlikely that it would cause issues.

xband

With regard to showers. Electric ones are almost totally unique to the UK and Ireland and in my opinion anyway, provide a noisy, temperature fluctuating, not very pleasant experience.

Putting in a modern, well insulated hot water cylinder heated primarily from central heating (and possibly solar) or looking at using instantaneous gas hot water heating (especially in smaller properties with lower use) would eliminate your electric showers.

To me, electric showers look like a cheap way of retrofitting showers into old homes that had substandard plumbing. I don't understand why they remain so common here.

Also heating water with an instantaneous electric heater isn't cheap per kWh. There's a lot of myth out there about hot water in Ireland and Britian.

Freeing up that load for car charging would be very useful.

A kWh of heat is a kWh of heat and natural gas comes in at as little as 4.7c per kWh if you shop around.

Also think about he CO2. Heating water with gas at point of use rather than burning gas at a remote power station with all the generation and transmission losses then using an electric resistance to hear the water makes a hell of a lot more sense !

heliguyheliguy

heliguyheliguy wrote: »

Where do you get your information from?
As an Electrician with 25 years experience I have yet to come across a domestic installation that is not capable of supplying 32amp services,unlikely that it would cause issues.

Eah, think you read what I posted and misinterpreted what I was saying all along ?

xband

xband wrote: »

With regard to showers. Electric ones are almost totally unique to the UK and Ireland and in my opinion anyway, provide a noisy, temperature fluctuating, not very pleasant experience.

Putting in a modern, well insulated hot water cylinder heated primarily from central heating (and possibly solar) or looking at using instantaneous gas hot water heating (especially in smaller properties with lower use) would eliminate your electric showers.

To me, electric showers look like a cheap way of retrofitting showers into old homes that had substandard plumbing. I don't understand why they remain so common here.

Also heating water with an instantaneous electric heater isn't cheap per kWh. There's a lot of myth out there about hot water in Ireland and Britian.

Freeing up that load for car charging would be very useful.

A kWh of heat is a kWh of heat and natural gas comes in at as little as 4.7c per kWh if you shop around.

Also think about he CO2. Heating water with gas at point of use rather than burning gas at a remote power station with all the generation and transmission losses then using an electric resistance to hear the water makes a hell of a lot more sense !

Yes so many electric showers installed because most people don't know what they're buying to be honest.

There should be information in the likes of BnQ to explain the differences between the two showers, pumped and electric. Most people buy the electric, I don't know why.

xband

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yes so many electric showers installed because most people don't know what they're buying to be honest.

There should be information in the likes of BnQ to explain the differences between the two showers, pumped and electric. Most people buy the electric, I don't know why.

The 1980s and 70s ESB ads worked too well!

BoatMad

xband wrote: »

With regard to showers. Electric ones are almost totally unique to the UK and Ireland and in my opinion anyway, provide a noisy, temperature fluctuating, not very pleasant experience.

Putting in a modern, well insulated hot water cylinder heated primarily from central heating (and possibly solar) or looking at using instantaneous gas hot water heating (especially in smaller properties with lower use) would eliminate your electric showers.

To me, electric showers look like a cheap way of retrofitting showers into old homes that had substandard plumbing. I don't understand why they remain so common here.

Also heating water with an instantaneous electric heater isn't cheap per kWh. There's a lot of myth out there about hot water in Ireland and Britian.

Freeing up that load for car charging would be very useful.

A kWh of heat is a kWh of heat and natural gas comes in at as little as 4.7c per kWh if you shop around.

Also think about he CO2. Heating water with gas at point of use rather than burning gas at a remote power station with all the generation and transmission losses then using an electric resistance to hear the water makes a hell of a lot more sense !

Firstly we and the use these systems because we have had historically poor flow vented low pressure hot water system. Europe typically has , 3 bar mains water heated and hence produces the equivalent of our pumped shower

Gas heating is not as thermally effecient as electric heating , but yes depending it can be economical

Electric heater at typically 5-7kwh units. It's easy to work out what a 5 or ten minute shower costs.

heliguyheliguy

Deleted User wrote: »

Eah, think you read what I posted and misinterpreted what I was saying all along ?

It seems that's exactly what I did, sorry.

xband

BoatMad wrote: »

Firstly we and the use these systems because we have had historically poor flow vented low pressure hot water system. Europe typically has , 3 bar mains water heated and hence produces the equivalent of our pumped shower
.

That's why you need a booster pump though, not a water heater in your bathroom. The majority of electric showers here aren't pumped and consume anything up to 10.8kW. A booster pump uses at most a few hundred watts.

I mean historically, many countries used a kettle and a bath by the fireplace, it doesn't mean they should still be doing that in 2016.

It's all about not upgrading ancient, uninsulated immersion heater cylinders both here and in Britain. A modern system is like a thermos flask on a large scale. Heat loss is tiny. You can heat by gas, solar, oil, solid fuel, wood pellets, heat pumps or off-peak electricity.

Having a 10.8kW electric instantaneous water heater in your shower cubicle seems a bit like a daft way of doing things to me and it's very, very British / Irish. I've never seen it done anywhere else.

Also they're installed in brand new homes which should have good water heating systems anyway...

The other oddity is we are absolutely paranoid about electricity in bathrooms - no switches, no sockets (most other countires have RCD protected sockets in the bathroom).
Yet, having an RCD protected 45 amp circuit terminating in a splash proof box (IPX4) in the shower cubicle is somehow fine.

IPX4 = "Water splashing against the enclosure from any direction shall have no harmful effect."

It doesn't cover jets for evample...

Anyway without going way off tangent, I just find some aspects of Irish and British regs and practice a bit odd and illogical.

Just seems like something I would eliminate in favour of EV charging facilities.

mylesm

xband wrote: »

That's why you need a booster pump though, not a water heater in your bathroom. The majority of electric showers here aren't pumped and consume anything up to 10.8kW. A booster pump uses at most a few hundred watts.

I mean historically, many countries used a kettle and a bath by the fireplace, it doesn't mean they should still be doing that in 2016.

It's all about not upgrading ancient, uninsulated immersion heater cylinders both here and in Britain. A modern system is like a thermos flask on a large scale. Heat loss is tiny. You can heat by gas, solar, oil, solid fuel, wood pellets, heat pumps or off-peak electricity.

Having a 10.8kW electric instantaneous water heater in your shower cubicle seems a bit like a daft way of doing things to me and it's very, very British / Irish. I've never seen it done anywhere else.

Also they're installed in brand new homes which should have good water heating systems anyway...

The other oddity is we are absolutely paranoid about electricity in bathrooms - no switches, no sockets (most other countires have RCD protected sockets in the bathroom).
Yet, having an RCD protected 45 amp circuit terminating in a splash proof box (IPX4) in the shower cubicle is somehow fine.

IPX4 = "Water splashing against the enclosure from any direction shall have no harmful effect."

It doesn't cover jets for evample...

Anyway without going way off tangent, I just find some aspects of Irish and British regs and practice a bit odd and illogical.

Just seems like something I would eliminate in favour of EV charging facilities.

Very Good Points but almost all Electric Showers in Ireland are Pumped ie the Showers are usually fed from Attic Tank and pumped by an internal pump in shower this is mainly because Mains Water Pressure is not at all stable and you could never be sure a non Pumped Electric Shower would have the minimum pressure required and you cold be left standing in a cold shower

heliguyheliguy

xband wrote: »

Just seems like something I would eliminate in favour of EV charging facilities.

It would not be hard to wire the shower and evse interlocked so only one can operate at a time. Give priority to the shower as it should only be on for a few minutes. charge the car the rest of the time.
I'm not entirely sure how often this would be an issue, as most homes have 80/100amp supplies but anyway its a non-issue as it's so easily overcome.

mylesm

heliguyheliguy wrote: »

It would not be hard to wire the shower and evse interlocked so only one can operate at a time. Give priority to the shower as it should only be on for a few minutes. charge the car the rest of the time.
I'm not entirely sure how often this would be an issue, as most homes have 80/100amp supplies but anyway its a non-issue as it's so easily overcome.

I made that point exactly its no different than Houses Having 2 Electric Showers and theres loads of them

But when EVs really take off I anticipate lots of problems with older houses not being suitable for installation of EVSE

heliguyheliguy

mylesm wrote: »

I made that point exactly its no different than Houses Having 2 Electric Showers and theres loads of them

But when EVs really take off I anticipate lots of problems with older houses not being suitable for installation of EVSE

I just haven't seen any home ever that would not be able to supply an evse so I don't understand where the idea is coming from that this would be an issue.
I realize that I have not seen every house out there and I'm sure there must be some that would need updating before they could safely supply an evse but I can't even imagine a situation where it would be terribly difficult.

I remain a bit confused as to why this is even a discussion.

If you wanted to talk about how a rapid uptake of ev's would put a strain on local substations and the grid as a whole; there would be something to think about but given that we are unlikely to reach a pace of uptake that would out pace the esb's ability to upgrade the network then it would only be an issue if the esb resisted the investment needed.

Rafal

heliguyheliguy wrote: »

It would not be hard to wire the shower and evse interlocked so only one can operate at a time. Give priority to the shower as it should only be on for a few minutes. charge the car the rest of the time.
I'm not entirely sure how often this would be an issue, as most homes have 80/100amp supplies but anyway its a non-issue as it's so easily overcome.

With all respect, perhaps you did not read my posts earlier in the thread (lost in the discussion of plumbing perhaps). This is exactly what I have installed: a priority device that gives priority to the shower, and when that is not drawing significant current, the EVSE takes what it needs.

On another note, and not directed at you but to all the otherwise very helpful participants of this thread, it is mildly frustrating when a thread about a chargepoint dedicates more than half of its posts to a discussion of plumbing, cylinders, historical efficiency of water heating vs this or that. Perhaps those posts should be moved to another, plumbing-related forum? They make this thread almost useless to someone searching for advice on installing a 32A charge point, who is hoping for a relevant point further and further down the thread, and just wastes their time. I feel demotivated to start other threads. Perhaps just deleting this damaged thread would be the right thing to do. Thank you all for reading my rant, no offence intended, just some hopefully constructive feedback.

xband

heliguyheliguy wrote: »

I just haven't seen any home ever that would not be able to supply an evse so I don't understand where the idea is coming from that this would be an issue.
I realize that I have not seen every house out there and I'm sure there must be some that would need updating before they could safely supply an evse but I can't even imagine a situation where it would be terribly difficult.

I remain a bit confused as to why this is even a discussion.

If you wanted to talk about how a rapid uptake of ev's would put a strain on local substations and the grid as a whole; there would be something to think about but given that we are unlikely to reach a pace of uptake that would out pace the esb's ability to upgrade the network then it would only be an issue if the esb resisted the investment needed.

That's the point tho. There's no issue in Irish homes in general but it keeps getting reiterated by various forums that there are problems with limited supplies.

There really aren't any other issues at all.

People may simply need to make better choices about using electric heating / water heating tho. That's the same all over Europe and overall, Irish supplies are fairly chunky compared to many places.

If EVs become a priority and charging over night things like storage heating should be discouraged strongly. There are much more cost effective and less CO2 blasting alternatives. Use electricity for doing things it does best - powering motors and electronics. It's very inefficient from a CO2 point of view at heating unless you've a massive nuclear or renewable generation capacity installed which at present, we don't.

Ireland's power system isn't even suited to storage heating anyway as we don't have an issue like the the UK and France - big nuclear stations that provide base load that can't be turned up / down easily.

Ireland's generators are mostly very flexible and responsive these days anyway and can respond to demand.

Getting EVs onto the network overnight would make sense tho. Also using smart metering to encourage charging at lower demand periods would make sense.

You could simply send out a text alert with "charge now" and offer reduced rates for that period.

Increasing local distribution capacity isn't *that* hard although you'd need to add more substations and increase the medium voltage on the distribution layer.

This was done to move 10kV rural distribution to 20kV which basically doubled its capacity.

Main thing is they need to be planning this in now and not responding to demand after it happens.

heliguyheliguy

mylesm wrote: »

Well A lot of older homes in Ireland especially in smaller Irish Towns have very poor wiring 6sq mains is not uncommon and an old style fuse box also so to install The RCBO would require at minimum an extra box etc to house it and this would not be included in free install Of course as you say almost any house could supply an EVSE but the costs for some houses will be more than the free install will cover As Far as I know from reading forums in UK they will only install ESVE in Houses with Modern MCB Consumer Units This may apply here I am not sure what the installers are being told to do in above situations

Well if they haven't updated to the much safer mcb consumer unit at this stage then they need to regardless of evse, its not a big job at all. The cost is on par with a couple of main-dealer full services; is your house not worthy of maintenance.

This goes back to my point of unwillingness to maintain. if your wiring is 30 years old (the last time it legal to install a fuse board) it's time for a checkup and update where necessary.

xband

If you've ancient wiring there's very little you can do other than upgrade. This isn't unique to Ireland by any means! Some really prehistoric installations all over the UK and much of Europe.

Its not a major barrier to EV adoption either. It's basically house maintenance and people should be upgrading regardless for fire safety and electrical safety reasons anyway.

I've seen similar nonsense about how French wiring is terrible based on someone looking at a farmhouse with 1940s (or older) wiring - no earths, 2 pin flat sockets etc. At least in Ireland and Britian modern plugs don't fit ancient sockets so, you at least get a sense that wiring is obsolete. In continental countries backwards compatibility was retained, so it's not unusual to see a 16amp, modern, earthed plug jammed into a 10amp unearthed socket on a lighting circuit...

Ireland is nowhere near that bad!!

Where as modern French wiring is absolutely top notch.

You can't really generalise in countires that have housing stock that goes back to the dawn of electricity.

Also, most Irish homes are not ancient. The majority would have at least 1970s era stuff, and if you look at the building booms - a huge % would be very recent.

Fuses aren't the end of the world either. There's nothing inherently unsafe about diazed fuses and they were used by some electricians well into the 80s. They just do exactly the same job as an MCB just far less conveniently as they can't be reset. They're far, far superior to UK rewirable fuses but they can be indicicative of a very old installation as they were used from the 1920s to 1980s.

The issue is all about quality of wiring and adequacy of the system. My own house was wired in 1977 and other than needing earths retrofitted to lighting circuits and a more modern board it was always a very decent system.

10X20A radials for sockets (4 doubles in most rooms) & 1 for the immersion heater.
1X10A for the central heating system
8X6A for lights
1X32A for the cooker

RCD on each row for sockets and outdoor lighting.
10A RCBO retrofitted for bathrooms lights/fans

Incoming customer tails were upgraded and the ESB incoming underground line is way oversized for demand so is fine.

Earth rods replaced and neutralisation (TN-C-S) bonding was all checked and all the plumbing is correctly bonded for equipotential zones.

Wiring was inspected and it's all fine. High quality MK sockets throughout the house and they are checked and I change them if they seem loose.

EV addition was easy !!

mylesm

NO
I am not saying that its a barrier to uptake but people will have to be aware that wiring and Distribution Boards may need updating etc Guy installing mine yesterday said he was already having some issues explaining to people it would incur extra costs thats all I was saying

This pic is probably one of the worst I came across in my Career not in Ireland rest assured

heliguyheliguy

xband wrote: »

That's the point tho. There's no issue in Irish homes in general but it keeps getting reiterated by various forums that there are problems with limited supplies.

There really aren't any other issues at all.

People may simply need to make better choices about using electric heating / water heating tho. That's the same all over Europe and overall, Irish supplies are fairly chunky compared to many places.

If EVs become a priority and charging over night things like storage heating should be discouraged strongly. There are much more cost effective and less CO2 blasting alternatives. Use electricity for doing things it does best - powering motors and electronics. It's very inefficient from a CO2 point of view at heating unless you've a massive nuclear or renewable generation capacity installed which at present, we don't.

Ireland's power system isn't even suited to storage heating anyway as we don't have an issue like the the UK and France - big nuclear stations that provide base load that can't be turned up / down easily.

Ireland's generators are mostly very flexible and responsive these days anyway and can respond to demand.

Getting EVs onto the network overnight would make sense tho. Also using smart metering to encourage charging at lower demand periods would make sense.

You could simply send out a text alert with "charge now" and offer reduced rates for that period.

Increasing local distribution capacity isn't *that* hard although you'd need to add more substations and increase the medium voltage on the distribution layer.

This was done to move 10kV rural distribution to 20kV which basically doubled its capacity.

Main thing is they need to be planning this in now and not responding to demand after it happens.

Mostly true but over the last month 40% of our electricity came from wind, a lot of which was produced at night.

The plan is for this to increase dramatically over the next decade a plan which is well underway.
This may change things by increasing the need for off peak storage, which could be aided by charging over night and storage heaters.
The co2 emissions are then a non issue for storage heating.

The differences in efficiency are negligible when the electricity used to mine and process fossil fuels is accounted for.

http://smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com/#roi/generation?scroll=fuel

xband

You have to pick though. There's finite capacity on the grid and electricity can be used to power EVs.

Using very efficient gas boilers, solar, geothermal heatpumps maybe looking at district heat in dense areas makes a lot of sense. In low density/rural areas biomass pellets make sense too (can be smokey tho and not really as suitable for mass adoption in urban areas). That coupled with serious investment in insulation and much higher building standards.

If you can prioritise using electricity to replace very polluting petrol / diesel use, to my mind that makes a lot more sense than using it where other very workable alternatives are available for heating where as electricity is a very, very useful method of powering cars and I can't really see any other viable alternatives.

If your goal is overall CO2 emissions reduction, you've got to make choices and create financial incentives to encourage adoption of systems that make best use of resources.

I'd rather see well insulated homes, local use of ultra efficient heating and an EV charging over night than 8 storage heaters mostly heating the garden.

We really aren't making much effort at all on district heating - there are a noteworthy examples - Tralee etc but, there's no reason why all new apartment developments, housing estates etc couldn't be plumbed for a district heating plant with geothermal or biomass.
Apartments should be at the very least using gas CHP.

I think the whole point of all this is to inform people that there really isn't an issue installing a 32 amp charge point and they can have one if they are willing to install it themselves. 32 amp charging is very convenient and I am installing it soon.

I'm charging right now after being out this morning, I am hoping it's charged by the time I need to go back out again, charging at 6.6 Kw means I would be able to charge to 90-95%% in about half the time.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

I think the whole point of all this is to inform people that there really isn't an issue installing a 32 amp charge point and they can have one if they are willing to install it themselves. 32 amp charging is very convenient and I am installing it soon.

I'm charging right now after being out this morning, I am hoping it's charged by the time I need to go back out again, charging at 6.6 Kw means I would be able to charge to 90-95%% in about half the time.

I agree,

Just finished the design of my own EVSE. once tests are complete ( using a simulator/tester and then my actual car in March ) I'll publish the design , like I promised. EVSEs are quite straight forward.

The big advantage of mine is , unlike using crude load priority switching , it implements load "sharing." , as the house loads rises , towards a preset limit. The evse commands the Leaf charger to take less power. So , for example , when you use the power shower , the leaf throttles back as required to the minimum 6 A charge rate , so charging is never interrupted.

I'm just modifying a esp8266 wifi module , to connect it to my wifi lan

Not to digress again into plumbing. But with night rate , I'm now switching to mains pressure , high thermal eficiency storage , with imersions , hot water system and dumping my instant showers, so infact leaf charging at 28A will be unlikely to be disrupted

stesaurus

Haven't seen you posting here in a while so thought you might have decided not to go ahead. Are you taking the 30kw?
It will be interesting to see how the Leaf responds to the EVSE when testing. Will it throw up errors if it detects power supply issues as the EVSE ramps down.
I presume you're putting a tethered type 1 cable on it so no use offering my i3 for a test of the charger

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

32 amps or about 7 kW is only about half a normal domestic supply.

Most people with electric showers that heat the water probably don't need them and most likely plenty of hot water in the hot water cylinder.

Pumped showers only are far more efficient and use hot water already in the tank.

At present, I do not run my central heating from about may through to September, other then occasional cold nights.

How do you suggest I have a hot shower each morning, other then heating a relatively large and lossy , cylinder of water , which will then sit loosing it's heat throughout the next 24 hours !

BoatMad

s.welstead wrote: »

Haven't seen you posting here in a while so thought you might have decided not to go ahead. Are you taking the 30kw?
It will be interesting to see how the Leaf responds to the EVSE when testing. Will it throw up errors if it detects power supply issues as the EVSE ramps down.
I presume you're putting a tethered type 1 cable on it so no use offering my i3 for a test of the charger

Yes we vacillated when the Esb charging fiasco came out. , and did the tour of 1 litre petrols , ( discard those ,horrible for motorways ) then onto 1.6 diesels ( not bad ). I have a spreadsheet as long as my arm at this stage. ' wasn't help by my wife's workplace stonewalling her on charging access

As we kept specing up the super mini diesels we started to climb back into Leaf territory. then at the last moment ( literally about to transfer deposit to the dealer of the diesel ) , my wife got " support" for work charging , and we both decided we wanted to try the EV ( she's more enthusiastic then me ! ) so , quick trip to excellant Nissan Wexford , ( Thomas McDonald , is the sales manger and expert on all things leaf, he drives one himself ). Who held all the pricing from pre Christmas and hey presto. 30kw , cold pack , 6kw charger , SV in silver , just about to sign this week. ( just mulling the pcp options or cash etc )


As for the EVSE, I kept working on the project anyway

Yes , on the face of it , the Protocol between the EVSE and the car charger , which is just a simple square wave of differing mark space ratios, is designed to support variable rates. The only issue is whether the leaf samples the mark space on charge cycle start. If it does it hasn't implemented the spec properly, but it won't be the first issue of something like that.

We shall see , the EVSE is quite cheap , about 10 euros in parts , outside the case and the high current contractor , charging cable etc.im just adding wifi to it at the moment ( and write an iPhone app, in between working 6 days a week at the moment !!! )

Yes fully thethered type1. But type 2 is identical except for the connector, so the evse itself is compatible with the i3 , I beleive.

After I use it on my leaf ( got to have the courage of ones convictions ) , I can make up a type 2 lead , as I actually have a connector . You'll welcome to vist to see it in operation.and try it out. Stay tuned

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

At present, I do not run my central heating from about may through to September, other then occasional cold nights.

How do you suggest I have a hot shower each morning, other then heating a relatively large and lossy , cylinder of water , which will then sit loosing it's heat throughout the next 24 hours !

I have just enough for a shower from heating the immersion on sink for 10-15 mins including enough for the sink. I don't need to heat the whole tank or at least three quarters with most immersion elements. So to me there is no need for an electric shower and I heat only what I need from the method above.

Most people use the electric shower but still need hot water from the tap so by heating the immersion for 10-15 mins just before I intend to shower is plenty for my needs and if my partner needs a shower just after me I heat the immersion all the way to 60 degrees. This ensures there is practically no water left to be wasted through convection.

If I find myself needing more hot water for dishes etc in Summer then I heat a kettle of water, I don't boil it but just about heat it enough.

There's very little wasted energy in my house.

peposhi

I got a bit confused here...
Rafal, is your charge point single or 3 phase one?

Rafal

peposhi wrote: »

I got a bit confused here...
Rafal, is your charge point single or 3 phase one?

Peposhi, it is a single-phase, 32A. That is capable of delivering 7.2 kW of power, similar to what domestic electric showers require. By the way, some Leaf dealers have been incorrectly trained to think that 3-phase supply is needed for 32A charge points, which is incorrect. Only a single phase is needed. If you had 3-phase supply, you would be able to install a 22 kW charge point, which would be of use to a Zoe, but not to a Leaf, i3, or an eGolf. Single phase domestic charge points max out at 7.2 kW, that is 32A, of which Leaf will only take no more than 6.6 kW, provided you specced it that way. By default it only takes 3.3 kW, which only requires a 16A charge point.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

peposhi

Rafal wrote: »

Peposhi, it is a single-phase, 32A. That is capable of delivering 7.2 kW of power, similar to what domestic electric showers require. By the way, some Leaf dealers have been incorrectly trained to think that 3-phase supply is needed for 32A charge points, which is incorrect. Only a single phase is needed. If you had 3-phase supply, you would be able to install a 22 kW charge point, which would be of use to a Zoe, but not to a Leaf, i3, or an eGolf. Single phase domestic charge points max out at 7.2 kW, that is 32A, of which Leaf will only take no more than 6.6 kW, provided you specced it that way. By default it only takes 3.3 kW, which only requires a 16A charge point.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

After a year of driving a Leaf and what I have learned the easy or the hard way re charging, CPs, batteries and etc I could clearly say that I regret not getting the 6.6kw on board charger.
Had I known a year a go what I know now + what you've just cleared up for me I would have been more than happy to pay extra €900 for the faster on board charger.

cros13

Rafal wrote: »

Single phase domestic charge points max out at 7.2 kW

9.6kW 40A single phase chargepoints are fairly popular, particularly in the US but also not unknown this side of the pond. The RAV4 EV and US version of the Tesla Model S (not the EU version due to it's charger layout) support charging on single phase at that rate. Several of the factory ICE conversion support 40A. The BMW i3 supports drawing a little more than 32A, so it would be a few % quicker charging on a 40A circuit.... though in practice it depends on the specific vehicle.

Unfortunately the majority of Leaf dealers in Ireland are only importing the 3.3 Kw Leaf to keep the list price as low as possible and if anyone asks about the 6.6 Kw they try to convince them they don't need it for fear they might go elsewhere and just buy whats in stock.

Charging an EV as quick as possible is essential, regardless of whether you need it often or not, I don't, but I'm bloody delighted with the 6.6 Kw when I need it ! This is what it's all about, when you need it !

Rafal

Indeed, I am with Mad_Lad on this one. Our Leaf is our only car, and I have already benefited from the 6.6 kW on 4 occasions, where I would have had to change my plans significantly had I only had the 3.3 charger:

1. Morning in Belfast, the car charged from 10-80% in 2 hours 40 mins while we visited a museum and had lunch, about 5 min walk from the charger (also offering free parking). After that I was able to continue my journey on a route that avoided making a detour to a rapid that would have made the afternoon appointment later than I could squeeze.

2. Lunch appointment of about 90 mins in Tullamore, en-route from Wicklow to Offaly, meant that with the 6.6 kW charger we entirely avoided the need for a rapid charge in Kilbeggan. With the 3.3 we would have needed a rapid—if this pattern repeats, and I've only had the car for a week, I can already see how 6.6 turns many regular chargers into "almost rapid" for us, something we could not achieve with 3.3. Provided you have something to do while the car is charging, this is more time-efficient than taking a detour to a rapid that requires you to lose some, even if little, time for the charge.

3. My husband brought back Leaf from Offaly with 53% but we needed to go to Kildare soon. My home charge point in Co Wickow, being 32A, gave us 53-73 in well under an 1 hour, we stopped at Nisan Belgard for a quick top up (not an ideal place, too crowded with unsold cars) and made our Kildare appointment in time. Without the 6.6 we would have had to skip lunch.

4. We arrived at Golden Lane in Dublin at 5:30pm with 13% (no other charges along the way) and knew we will be around Grafton St till 8pm. We got 13-74% in that time, making the journey home easy and allowing for one last errand, which otherwise would have meant a detour to a rapid.

I respect that some of you said that you have a 6.6 kW charger but you only have used it a handful of times in years. My experience shows that it is important to my family, which is why I would like to stress that its usefulness would depend on your circumstances.