Pep on the way to England

Andersonisgod

I wasn't really sure what other thread to put this on and it's probably a big enough story to warrant it's own thread. If the mods want to put it somewhere else then my apologies. Anyway....here we go!

Pep is leaving Bayern Munich. He will announce the decision to the media next week but Kicker have gotten there ahead of him, and other reputable journalists seem to think this is a lock. Lots of speculation as to why he is leaving, some think the infrastructure of the club upsets Pep, however it's far more likely that he thinks it is time for the next project, he makes no secret that he believes 3-4 years at one club is an eternity and ends up hindering the club, the players and the coach if you stick around too long.

At Bayern Munich Pep had crafted an identity to give to the club, he had to take over after Bayern's treble, keep motivations high and innovate. His impact on Bayern, the German national team and German football as a whole is undoubted. His innovations at Bayern have been remarkable, every game has been a lesson taught by football's grandmaster. Pep now sets his sights to England.

The question is, will it to Man Utd, Man City, or Chelsea that get, probably, the best manager of his generation. All of these clubs would love to have him and the fight truly begins now. My money is on City, the infrastructure at that club has practically been built with Pep in mind, the squad is the most Pep-like, Begiristain and Soriano are already at the club, it seems like a match made in heaven. That is bad news for English football, since becoming one of the wealthiest clubs in Europe they've threatened to become the line superpower in the English game, with the infrastructure now in place, with the recent backing from the Chinese consortium, dominance is within their reach, all they need do is reach out and grab it. By getting Pep they would be doing exactly that.

Talisman

It's not England, it's Wales! Swansea City A.F.C.

Granted they do play in the Premier League.

XR3i

he'll crack under the pressure

Charlie19

Awaits Geeand Ballbags thoughts.

Harry Palmr

It better be City as he might be able to stop Utd slipping into a slow but substantial decline!

GLaDOS

Would be interesting to see how he does with a squad of lower calibre than Barca or Munich.

LiamoSail

Andersonisgod wrote: »

The question is, will it to Man Utd, Man City, or Chelsea that get, probably, the best manager of his generation.

I'd have expected the best manager of his generation to have achieved more, rather than less then his predecessor.

I'd like to see him go to Arsenal. Arsenal are a well run club and he's one of the few with the pedigree worthy of succeeding Wenger, and with a similar philosophy.

In much the same way that few expected him to go to either Bayern or Perugia (fcuk knows how he ended up there, there was no internet at the time to enlighten us), it's difficult to predict where he'll go.

Is his time at Bayern considered a success in Germany? The league title is a given for Bayern, and obviously they've been excellent domestically, but failed in Europe. Is Europe the bar for the Bayern manager or is winning what is essentially now a one horse race, albeit in remarkable style, sufficient?

LiamoSail

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Would be interesting to see how he does with a squad of lower calibre than Barca or Munich.

Particularly if he takes over a club in which the squad haven't had recent big success, such as United or Arsenal

retalivity

Wouldnt say he 'met expectations' in germany more than anything else...

Andersonisgod

LiamoSail wrote: »

I'd have expected the best manager of his generation to have achieved more, rather than less then his predecessor.

I'd like to see him go to Arsenal. Arsenal are a well run club and he's one of the few with the pedigree worthy of succeeding Wenger, and with a similar philosophy.

In much the same way that few expected him to go to either Bayern or Perugia (fcuk knows how he ended up there, there was no internet at the time to enlighten us), it's difficult to predict where he'll go.

Is his time at Bayern considered a success in Germany? The league title is a given for Bayern, and obviously they've been excellent domestically, but failed in Europe. Is Europe the bar for the Bayern manager or is winning what is essentially now a one horse race, albeit in remarkable style, sufficient?

Only those unaware of what Bayern wanted when Pep joined will consider his time in Germany to be a failure. They wanted an identity, they wanted somebody to finish the project which they started with Louis Van Gaal and Pep has done all of those things, his influence on the German national team and German football as a whole is undeniable. The things he has done at Bayern are at the very forefront of innovation in football. I think everyone takes it for granted that the Bundesliga is a given for Bayern and, given their financial muscle, they should win it more than their fair share of times but until Pep it wasn't the one horse race it is now and that is reflected in the sequence of league winners pre Pep. He readily admits he got the semi final vs Real Madrid wrong the first time around, he didn't trust his gut instinct, he listened to others and it cost Bayern. Last season he had to play with no wingers or any players that could beat an opposition player, against the best front three in football history, this season, with the changes he has made to the squad and how they've continued to develop under Pep, they are a match for any team, even Barcelona. He could deliver the Champions League this season, it wouldn't be a surprise, even if he doesn't, his time in Germany has been a success for Bayern Munich, for German football and for football as a whole.

Andersonisgod

My own 2 cents, which I actually forgot to give in the OP, other than predicting what club he would end up at, is that I'd rather he didn't go to England. It's a football culture that doesn't understand Pep and won't understand Pep even when they see him in close quarters. You read how the media report on his teams in England, you listen to how the pundits speak about his teams and my conclusion is that this is a country that does not deserve Pep Guardiola. Give them pragmatism dressed up as "managerial masterclasses", give them buzz words for their headlines, that's what England wants because it's easy, it's easy to understand, it's easy to digest. Give them innovation and they scoff, give them a new way of winning and they roar about how things are done around here, give them genius and they will not understand it, they only understand mediocrity. That is my concern for Pep in England. At Barcelona, and in Germany, everyone knows just how special Pep is because they understand what it means to be great in football. A bit like Messi or Ronaldinho, I wish he wouldn't choose England.

GLaDOS

As mentioned I think Arsenal would suit him best. Wengers philosophy of play and ethos of blooding youngsters from the academy would match his own. There's a good blueprint for him to work with.

However City and Chelsea will offer him more financially and those two and United are more likely to drop their current managers than Arsenal you would feel.

LiamoSail

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Only those unaware of what Bayern wanted when Pep joined will consider his time in Germany to be a failure. They wanted an identity, they wanted somebody to finish the project which they started with Louis Van Gaal and Pep has done all of those things, his influence on the German national team and German football as a whole is undeniable. The things he has done at Bayern are at the very forefront of innovation in football. I think everyone takes it for granted that the Bundesliga is a given for Bayern and, given their financial muscle, they should win it more than their fair share of times but until Pep it wasn't the one horse race it is now and that is reflected in the sequence of league winners pre Pep. He readily admits he got the semi final vs Real Madrid wrong the first time around, he didn't trust his gut instinct, he listened to others and it cost Bayern. Last season he had to play with no wingers or any players that could beat an opposition player, against the best front three in football history, this season, with the changes he has made to the squad and how they've continued to develop under Pep, they are a match for any team, even Barcelona. He could deliver the Champions League this season, it wouldn't be a surprise, even if he doesn't, his time in Germany has been a success for Bayern Munich, for German football and for football as a whole.

Thanks for detailed reply. I'm not a big follower of German football, but it does seem from the outside that while Bayern have been excellent domestically, his reign has coincided with previous contenders experiencing a downturn in fortunes, which can't be attributed to Guadiola; BVB being the obvious example. Still, he can only beat what's put in front of him.

You mentioned that the things he has done at Bayern are at the very forefront of innovation in football. What tangible methods or ideas has he introduced that lead you to say this? I'd have imagined Bayern to a very well run club prior to Guadiola's arrival.

StringerBell

Its a small bit like getting excuses ready for him if he were to fail really.

klose

Bielsa apparently on the way too, to swansea if you believe paper talk. Guardiola is a big fan of bielsa, couple of interesting potential appointments.

Andersonisgod

LiamoSail wrote: »

Thanks for detailed reply. I'm not a big follower of German football, but it does seem from the outside that while Bayern have been excellent domestically, his reign has coincided with previous contenders experiencing a downturn in fortunes, which can't be attributed to Guadiola; BVB being the obvious example. Still, he can only beat what's put in front of him.

You mentioned that the things he has done at Bayern are at the very forefront of innovation in football. What tangible methods or ideas has he introduced that lead you to say this? I'd have imagined Bayern to a very well run club prior to Guadiola's arrival.

Take the two teams he has most directly influenced in his time in German football, those being Bayern Munich and the German national team.

Bayern Munich under Heynckes were a strong, gifted team full of individual quality. Jupp was specifically chosen post Van Gaal to take what the Dutchman had started and develop it further. He unexpectedly ended up with a treble winning side. The problem some have when discussing Guardiola is that they will say "ye but the guy before won the treble and Pep didn't" it's a viewpoint without context and without thought. How many teams have won back to back trebles? Pep did win the double the next season, which given that usually motivation is tough to maintain post treble, is pretty incredible in itself given that it was his first season and he tried to do so many things in that season.

What Bayern wanted is an identity, for people to look at Bayern, as they do Barcelona, and say "yes, that's the Bayern way." The idea was that Pep would be almost like their Cruyff, or what Pep was to Barcelona. He's given them an identity.

He's changed how they play. Under Heynckes it was reliant more on counter attack (as German football tends to be) and the extreme qualities of the individual. That's gradually changed under Pep as he's brought the Spanish qualities of collectivism and ball mastery to Bayern Munich. It's not been an easy transition, afterall these are qualities most Barcelona players have been learning since they were children, but he's gradually managed to indoctrinate his Bayern players in this.

It's important to note though that this wasn't just a one way street. This wasn't just Pep helping Bayern, Munich has been a God send to Pep. He was so burnt out with coaching Barcelona and dealing with the politics of Sandro Rosell and having that image as being "the hero of Catalunya" that he had to take a year out. Free of the pressure cauldron of Barcelona, free of the backstabbing politics, free of Mourinho, free of the restraints that the football traditions that Barcelona places on it's managers, Pep had a new lease of life, a blank canvas on which to work in a supportive environment (so supportive it shocked Pep) and he's made full use of that, his genius has been on full display in Munich.

Though he hasn't actually coached at the last 2 World Cups, he's one of the coaches that has made the largest impact at both tournaments. Both sides that won it had teams made up with the majority of players that played for club teams coached by Pep, both sides adopted Pep's tiki taka style of football. Germany in 2010 were a lightning quick counter attacking side, Germany in 2012 were a side struggling to adapt to having to be the team to take the initiative in games, Germany in 2014 were a side in the mould of a Guardiola team, a possession heavy team, making use of some of Pep's ideas and taking full advantage of what he has given to the Bayern players and German football as a whole. There's no doubting his influence on either team.

Andersonisgod

StringerBell wrote: »

Its a small bit like getting excuses ready for him if he were to fail really.

Call it what you want, I'm giving you my logic why I think it's the wrong choice. I understand the allure but I don't think that English football will be as open to Pep's way of thinking as Germany were and, as such, I don't think England will reap the rewards of having Pep in their country as Germany has.

LiamoSail

Andersonisgod wrote: »

The problem some have when discussing Guardiola is that they will say "ye but the guy before won the treble and Pep didn't" it's a viewpoint without context and without thought. How many teams have won back to back trebles? Pep did win the double the next season, which given that usually motivation is tough to maintain post treble, is pretty incredible in itself given that it was his first season and he tried to do so many things in that season.

I hadn't considered the above point regarding the post treble team.

While I don't necessarily agree with you on the extent of Guadiola's ability as a manager, you obviously follow German football far closer than I do, so interesting to read your take on it

Turtwig

Bayern don't want Pep to leave that tells you all you need to know about what he's done. They may not win any trophy this season, they may win all of them, regardless there's a system there now where any player (with the possible exception of Neuer) can be rotated in and out of the starting XI with no significant drop in the level of performance. There's no other club that can claim that. Pep makes decent players imitate the sublime quality of the stars in the team.

Andersonisgod

LiamoSail wrote: »

I hadn't considered the above point regarding the post treble team.

While I don't necessarily agree with you on the extent of Guadiola's ability as a manager, you obviously follow German football far closer than I do, so interesting to read your take on it

I honestly couldn't say enough good things about him, he's just an incredible coach whose teams are worth watching every single week because you are guaranteed to see at least 1 thing that will make you applaud.

Demosthenese

Couple of things jump to my mind reading your posts : Bayern wanted an identity? How is the identity they have now worldwide any different to that before he arrived? Sure they play some superb football but they have not dominated Europe like the Barca side he managed did. They are more or less as renowned for their style of football as they were before imo. Yes an obvious change in style admitted but Identity? Not for me.

As for being as influential in the last 2 world cups - again i believe that in the case of Spain as they had the majority of his players dominating the world scene first with Barca then with Spain. But again, i'm not buying into him being that big an influence with the German National team as they've played the same way for the past decade, changes were made to German football in the past decade and i'm saying Pep wasn't at the grassroots level when they decided that! He basically got on at the last stop before the Germans made their final push towards world Glory. So again, a contributor, yes, a defining part of the puzzle ... no.

As for him landing in England, it does seem the most likely place for him to go, and City for one would be crazy to pass a chance to get him in there with the financial clout they have available. Perhaps that's already a forgone conclusion? Would be easy for him to take a side like City and produce what he has domestically at Bayern ... but Europe would be the acid test, much like it is now. Sure enough Bayern were truly spanked out of Europe last 2 seasons and that has to burn a guy like Pep. Just cos you hold your hand up after getting spanked doesn't make it any less forgivable.

As for the English press/people not appreciating him ... well, i'm sure they'll laud all sorts of nonsense over him just like they did to Klopp.

ERG89

Really undermines the rest of their season that he announces it now. He has done an average enough job at Bayern absolutely nothing special tbh.
Winning the Bundesliga with them atm is a total cakewalk when Dortmund have lost so much, some to Bayern themselves.
He flopped in the Champions League so far tho. Crushed by Real & then brushed aside last year by Barca. Made good signings in the summer but I don't fancy them now tbh.
Just hope Bayern don't ask Klopp to take over bar Ancelloti or....Jose? hard to know who else they'll look at.

Andersonisgod

Demosthenese wrote: »

Couple of things jump to my mind reading your posts : Bayern wanted an identity? How is the identity they have now worldwide any different to that before he arrived? Sure they play some superb football but they have not dominated Europe like the Barca side he managed did. They are more or less as renowned for their style of football as they were before imo. Yes an obvious change in style admitted but Identity? Not for me.

As for being as influential in the last 2 world cups - again i believe that in the case of Spain as they had the majority of his players dominating the world scene first with Barca then with Spain. But again, i'm not buying into him being that big an influence with the German National team as they've played the same way for the past decade, changes were made to German football in the past decade and i'm saying Pep wasn't at the grassroots level when they decided that! He basically got on at the last stop before the Germans made their final push towards world Glory. So again, a contributor, yes, a defining part of the puzzle ... no.

As for him landing in England, it does seem the most likely place for him to go, and City for one would be crazy to pass a chance to get him in there with the financial clout they have available. Perhaps that's already a forgone conclusion? Would be easy for him to take a side like City and produce what he has domestically at Bayern ... but Europe would be the acid test, much like it is now. Sure enough Bayern were truly spanked out of Europe last 2 seasons and that has to burn a guy like Pep. Just cos you hold your hand up after getting spanked doesn't make it any less forgivable.

As for the English press/people not appreciating him ... well, i'm sure they'll laud all sorts of nonsense over him just like they did to Klopp.

As I said, the idea was that Bayern wanted to be easily identifiable in how they play, and the model they held up was Barcelona so appointing Pep was logical. As people say "they play like Barça" and everyone automatically knows what that means, that's what they key men at Bayern wanted and they've gotten exactly that. Their playing style is more clearly defined now than at any other time in my lifetime anyway.

Compare Germany at the World Cup 2010 to Germany at the World Cup 2014 and you will see two very different teams. You might say a couple players changed, players gained more experience all of which is true, but you will also see a complete philosophy shift from an outright counter attacking side to a possession based side. Yes the German model of youth development changed to hone more technically gifted players but that to the type of possession football, with that heavy press, the high line, the fluidity of positions, the quick ball rotation, the triangles, is classic Pep. Certainly many people deserve credit, cheif among them Joachim Lowe, but the German side that won it bore all the hallmarks of a Pep team. Change the colour of the jerseys and the crest and you could have been watching Pep's Bayern Munich.

StringerBell

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Call it what you want, I'm giving you my logic why I think it's the wrong choice. I understand the allure but I don't think that English football will be as open to Pep's way of thinking as Germany were and, as such, I don't think England will reap the rewards of having Pep in their country as Germany has.

You know what, leaving all the bluster aside, we actually sort of agree on the main point. I am not certain Pep would do well in England either.

Andersonisgod

ERG89 wrote: »

Really undermines the rest of their season that he announces it now. He has done an average enough job at Bayern absolutely nothing special tbh.
Winning the Bundesliga with them atm is a total cakewalk when Dortmund have lost so much, some to Bayern themselves.
He flopped in the Champions League so far tho. Crushed by Real & then brushed aside last year by Barca. Made good signings in the summer but I don't fancy them now tbh.
Just hope Bayern don't ask Klopp to take over bar Ancelloti or....Jose? hard to know who else they'll look at.

I won't respond here because I'd be repeating myself and it'd take ages to put forward my argument and I really do want to sleep tonight so ye. I'll just say that he's being hounded in every press conference for an answer, it's already become a dominating issue that has been taking precedence over games already. Pep does short term deals for reasons explained earlier, by getting this out in the open the hope will be that it'll make the story a non issue in Germany.

At Bayern it'll be Ancelotti to take over.

thebaz

Pep is so yesterday - the way forward is Alan Pardew

Jayop

I'm not as utterly impressed by him as most others. Done really well in two two horse leagues but you'd want to be a total flop not to win titles with either Barca or Bayern. I'm not a fan of the football played by his sides but I will admit it's hugely impressive, especially how he's able to get massive name players to work so hard and buy into his philosophy (sorry).

England is a brave choice for him because success is far from guaranteed, he could take over any of the top clubs and win nothing given the competitive nature of it. If he does take over an English club and get the success he had in Spain and Germany then he's truly worthy cause of the greatest of his generation title.

As a United fan I'd love to have him. As rich as we are we still have values that he seems to appreciate. Youth development, attacking hard working play and a rich history.

I'm sad to say the biggest optimist in football is disillusioned but someone like this could restore balance.

StringerBell

Ancelotti doesn't have a similar style to Pep at all though so that would break the chain completely again, and you would have to wonder what the point was then really. This identity or whatever it is you speak of that they wanted so badly over and done with after 3 years? I don't buy it.

Ancelotti could well take over there of course, good choice, good manager, a league he hasnt been in before etc makes sense on a lot of levels.

I could see someone like Mircea Lucescu get a shot at one of the bigger teams/leagues soon, but Bayern would be quite a big step admittedly.

Frank De Boer is someone who fits into that category too actually, Roger Schmidt will surely be talked about in Germany as a contender for what he has done at Leverkusen, Villas-Boas could come from left field, he is due another shot at a big job in the near future I would bet.

Loads of potentially very good managers on the rise at the moment, Markus Weinzierl has caught a lot of peoples eyes, Montella or even a Simeone!

No absolute stand out choice for that Bayern job after Pep though, Ancelotti may look to be the safest pair of hands.

K-9

Chelsea must be seriously considering him now. 3 months ago everybody thought it was City or United.

Things change so much, look at Klopp. Timing can be everything. Sometimes it goes for you or, as Ferguson said, it goes against you and you end up with Moyes.

Boskowski

Bayern didn't need Pep to have an 'identity'. They had one long before him and they will have one long after him.

Is Bayern a great team under him? Yes they are to some degree, but they've been a great team before him. And while he's going to go down as a successful Bayern coach overall his achievements will probably be considered no more than par for the course with that squad and that infrastructure. He will have to win the CL this year to upgrade his Bayern legacy from grand to great.

Peps tenure was a coup for Bayern and for the Bundesliga itself, no doubt, but if the above is true (he leaves) I agree with him, 3 years is enough. Was never a great fan of his style and I think Bayern are better off to return to their actual identify rather than a borrowed one.
Would have liked Klopp there but regardless of Liverpool that probably wasn't going to happen with the Bayern bosses. He is just a bit too much un-Bayern like isn't he? My money is on the obvious (Ancelotti) and I would like that very much.

Edit: Sorry Andersonisgod I couldn't disagree more with you in terms of giving him any credit for Germany World Cup win. Its a great climax (not the end just yet) to a long journey and I find it awful trying to take away from what Loew has achieved there over many years. If anything the Bayern and Germany story is one of sustainability, slow and pointed development and a distinct shift from what they used to call the teutonic qualities to playing fast, direct quality football. Again all this happened over a 10+ years development. Nothing to do with possession ueber alles. They just happen to have the ball a lot because of the quality of their squad anyway. Some of the players most instrumental in the World Cup win were players that aren't really Pep men like Schweinsteiger, Kroos, Mueller.

Rayne Wooney

Pep fell into his first job laughing having arguably the best squad of all time at his disposal, he couldn't have picked a better second job either. He is a great coach but he will be exposed as human in England imo, I think his first stint in England will be very underwhelming compared to what he's used to achieving and it will be interesting to see how he would handle that.

I would be worried if he went to City or Arsenal, Arsenal seems too good a fit. Play a similar style but need a few more star names that Pep can attract. United are a much bigger task and I'm not sure he'll want to start himself on such a big disadvantage, if Fergie had been retiring next summer instead I'd think it was guaranteed but alas, the last 3 years happened.

If he is a success in England it would be like if Floyd Mayweather had beaten Pacquiao 5 or 6 years ago, any lingering doubts about him would be completely erased

City favourites

Dirty Dingus McGee

Surely it's a bad idea for him to announce he's leaving Bayern before the season is over.

If he fails to win the champions league with them this years then it's a massive black mark against his managerial record.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Surely what Heycknes did where Bayern played in a style that combined power and speed with finesse and skill was a perfect identity and showed all the good things you would associate with German football and was much more of an identity than copying someones else tiki taka philosophy.

It seems what really happened was that Bayern panicked and thought Heycknes would not deliver the champions league and so pounced on Guardiola as soon as he was available as he had a proven track record in Europe and he was brought in to help them dominate in Europe.

Bounty Hunter

I disagree strongly with calling him the greatest of this generation despite thinking he is a very good coach. To garner such a grand accolade / title he will have to do as he has done but with a side that doesent easily contain the countries best players.

To that point of course England won't benefit as much as Germany or Spain did from his presence as no matter what club he joins they won't have the vast majority of the England squad in their team unlike how Barca and Bayern did.

I'd really like to see him at Arsenal but imagine it'll be City who are now well set up for his arrival, starting to do better in Europe and with their financial might he will no doubt be a success although considering the premiership is more competitive (not saying better) it may be tough to repeat the heights of success he had at his last two clubs.

Liam McPoyle

RoboKlopp wrote: »

City favourites

Makes most sense tbh. They have the strongest squad by a good stretch so in that regard it would suit his MO.

If though he wants to manage a team that actually means something and that existed before 2007 then it wouldn't make sense.

I wouldn't be surprised if Wenger hangs up his spurs next summer which would leave the Arse as the logical destination.

Business Cat

Business Cat wrote: »

If though he wants to manage a team that actually means something and that existed before 2007 then it wouldn't make sense.
.

The only thing that doesn't make sense is this condescending post tbh.

"a team that means something" What does that even mean?

Vicxas

Business Cat wrote: »

Makes most sense tbh. They have the strongest squad by a good stretch so in that regard it would suit his MO.

If though he wants to manage a team that actually means something and that existed before 2007 then it wouldn't make sense.

I wouldn't be surprised if Wenger hangs up his spurs next summer which would leave the Arse as the logical destination.

Arsenal under Guardiola would be a terrifying thought....

Liam McPoyle

RoboKlopp wrote: »

The only thing that doesn't make sense is this condescending post tbh.

"a team that means something" What does that even mean?

I've read in various places that Pep aspires to manage clubs with history, with a lineage.

Clubs like Barca & Munich, id put the likes of United, LFC or The Milan Clubs in a similar bracket.

City are nowhere near that level IMO.

bucketybuck

Demosthenese wrote: »

Bayern wanted an identity? How is the identity they have now worldwide any different to that before he arrived?

It isn't. Thats all just the usual AIG vague, wishy washy bullcrap. Bayern have had an identity long before Pep and they will still have it long after Pep. A new manager will come in with his own ideas, they will win the league yet again and Pep will be long forgotten.

Pep is not the messiah, not yet. He was handed the best players in the world and won trophies, well done Pep but a little perspective wouldn't go astray. If winning titles with Barcelona and Bayern Munich were a guarantee of success in England we wouldn't be seeing such a shitshow from Van Gaal.

Knex*

I think City would be his best route for success. He has the money, and a core group of players, to build a squad that can implement his style.

I'd expect City to spend massively in the summer, especially if they had Pep at the helm.

The point about Clubs with history and lineage is fair enough, but is that because Barca and Bayern are two of the best teams around, and he walked in to teams that had the best squad in the world on both occasions, or because he actually genuinely likes "big" clubs?

I'd argue its more column A, than column B.

SlickRic

His influence on the German national team? Stop giving him credit for stuff that had very little to do with him. He doesn't need it.

You say it's 'undeniable', like it's a fact. He took Bayern over in 2013. I know you think, AIG, that the man is some sort of fúcking deity, but he's not. He has had little to nothing to do with Germany's successes. The structures and talent to make that happen were there years before Pep ever arrived.

Also, Pep has failed at Bayern if he doesn't win the Champions League. He's an incredible manager, but we can't ignore being unable to meet that standard by simply using the 'he's developed an identity' argument. Who the fúck else gets that leeway?

He's not an infallible God.

Liam McPoyle

Knex. wrote: »

The point about Clubs with history and lineage is fair enough, but is that because Barca and Bayern are two of the best teams around, and he walked in to teams that had the best squad in the world on both occasions, or because he actually genuinely likes "big" clubs?

I'd argue its more column A, than column B.

There is no denying the Barca situation made him. The best team in the world that also happened to have the beat player that has ever kicked a ball just fell into his lap, its difficult to see how any manager with even half a footballing brain could have failed there.

He then went to the best team in Germany, again, with the squad he inherited and lack of competition in the league it wasn't exactly a tough job.

Given his success he is now in the top 10, probably top 5 managers in the world, whether that's because he is an outstanding manager or because of the circumstances he found himself in, well, time will tell on that. I would like to see him go to a team that wasn't at the top in their respective leagues to see how he would cope.

A team like Spurs would really test his mettle.

ronjo

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Call it what you want, I'm giving you my logic why I think it's the wrong choice. I understand the allure but I don't think that English football will be as open to Pep's way of thinking as Germany were and, as such, I don't think England will reap the rewards of having Pep in their country as Germany has.

I understand you think he possibly shouldnt come but if Pep were to call you up and say "Andersonisgod my old mate, I have decided to go to England. where should I go and why to enhance my reputation even more?"

What would you say?

SlickRic

ronjo wrote: »

I understand you think he possibly shouldnt come but if Pep were to call you up and say "Andersonisgod my old mate, I have decided to go to England. where should I go and why to enhance my reputation even more?"

What would you say?

AIG supports Chelsea and wants Mourinho out. Take a guess!

Lovely Bloke

SlickRic wrote: »

His influence on the German national team? Stop giving him credit for stuff that had very little to do with him. He doesn't need it.

You say it's 'undeniable', like it's a fact. He took Bayern over in 2013. I know you think, AIG, that the man is some sort of fúcking deity, but he's not. He has had little to nothing to do with Germany's successes. The structures and talent to make that happen were there years before Pep ever arrived.

Also, Pep has failed at Bayern if he doesn't win the Champions League. He's an incredible manager, but we can't ignore being unable to meet that standard by simply using the 'he's developed an identity' argument. Who the fúck else gets that leeway?

He's not an infallible God.

You should curse more, it's liberating.

HalloweenJack

I think Pep is a one of the best managers around and he has done a lot for football but, as others have mentioned, he's been lucky in that he's worked in two situations where he had an embarassment of riches available to him.

Rijkaard, Tito Vilanova and Luis Enrique have all won trophies at Barcelona.

Rijkaard I don't rate one bit and I get the impression most clubs don't either. He's been sacked from his last two jobs (Gala and Saudi Arabia). Even previous to his Barca spell, he didn't do much, manager of a Dutch side that had already qualified as hosts for Euro 2000, got one of the most historic Dutch league sides relegated for the first time.

Tito, well we don't know what would have been but his only previous managerial experience saw him get a fourth division side relegated.

Luis Enrique struggled at Roma and did well at a mid-table La Liga side. Of all that group, Enrique has the best previous record.

Tata Martino had a decent record previous to his spell but I think the jump from South America to Europe was too much.

So to be Barca manager doesn't mean you have to have a great track record previous to it but you have to buy into the style. To me, it seems they're happy to take a lesser manager that won't rock the boat. They don't want someone to come in and start from scratch.

At Bayern, they've had a record of more impressive managers but despite a lot of managerial changes in recent years, they've been able to stay at the top of the game. I'd say that at Bayern, Pep has made more changes and actually done more to justify his rep, it's shown that he's not just a one-trick pony.

However, I want to see him come in at a club that doesn't have one of the best squads, a solid infrastructure and very recent success and see how he does. It would be interesting to see him at the likes of Spurs, Milan or Marseille. Personally, til he actually goes out and does a job like that, he's not going to be on the same level as Alex Ferguson.

I think England would be a bad move for Pep. It's very competitive at the moment, City and Arsenal the two consistent challengers, Man U and Liverpool seem to be recovering, Spurs on their way up and Chelsea could still be a force with a different manager and then there's the midtable sides who occassionally threaten. If he were to go, Arsenal would be the best fit but that seems the least likely.

Think he'd be best suited by going to someone like Juve or PSG. They both already have decent squads in place and recent history on their side.

As for Germany, to say that a guy who managed some of the players for one season had more influence than the guy who managed and moulded the team over the previous eight years, not to mention all the goings-on at underage and structural level, is just plain ridiculous and if you really believe that then you are even more deluded than I previously thought.

ERG89

Business Cat wrote: »

I've read in various places that Pep aspires to manage clubs with history, with a lineage.

Clubs like Barca & Munich, id put the likes of United, LFC or The Milan Clubs in a similar bracket.

City are nowhere near that level IMO.

Liverpool, United & the Milan clubs are a real challenge at the minute though. Contrary to what a lot of managers say, they don't want a challenge.
History is something brought up now to get press/fans off your back, a bit of nostalgia helps. What happens this season is your viewing in the eyes of the public. Each if those teams probably have more history than PSG, City and Chelsea combined but it doesn't mean much to them in 2015.

Andersonisgod

ronjo wrote: »

I understand you think he possibly shouldnt come but if Pep were to call you up and say "Andersonisgod my old mate, I have decided to go to England. where should I go and why to enhance my reputation even more?"

What would you say?

I did get a call from what I assumed was a wrong number this morning....Maybe it was......

Probably not though. If I had to pick an English club I could see positives and negatives for each. Pep makes no secret of his admiration for Man Utd, the history and tradition of the club and his huge respect for Sir Alex Ferguson, a hero of Pep's. It'd be the third time he'd be following on from a Van Gaal project (though like the other 2 not directly after). They play a possession heavy game, though like Bayern in the very early days of Pep, it's possession without purpose, possession for the sake of possession which Pep detests with a passion. The negatives, in my opinion are, a club infrastructure that is still far behind the other top clubs as being ruled by a dictatorship (albeit an incredibly successful one) has left Man Utd ill-equipped to deal with the demands of modern football post SAF. I also feel the shadow of Ferguson still looms large over Old Trafford, the constant comparisons with Ferguson would not be something Pep enjoys. There's also a bit of what Van Gaal (a mentor of Pep) is enduring at the moment, that being that if you aren't playing the brand of football associated with Man Utd for the last 25 years then you are leaving yourself open to derision.

Man City are the favourites to land him and with good reason. They offer a blank canvas, with none of the shackles of "the Man City way of playing" because that's not been defined yet. They offer an experienced squad, with many players that you can be sure Pep would love to work with and vice versa. With their unmatched youth set up and they're growing financial power and clout, City truly look to be the club of the future and Guardiola is not a man to get stuck in the past. City have been trying to lure Pep to the Eastlands for years, like Bayern with Pep, like Barça with Cruyff, they need somebody to come in and become a reference point, to introduce the "City way of playing" and to allow that to spread down to their youth teams too. They've got Begiristain and Soriano already, they're in a strong position to land Pep. The negatives with City are that they aren't a club with the history and tradition that Pep treasures so much and parts of that squad will need an overhaul.

Arsenal is probably the least likely option if purely for the fact that Wenger has been allowed to build the strongest squad he's had in years and they've seen an upturn in fortune the last couple of years. I've seen some suggest Arsenal as the ideal club for Pep because they play a style of football most similar to Pep's but I believe that is wide of the mark on both counts. Sacking Wenger when Arsenal are on the rise would leave a bad taste in the mouth of Arsenal fans and would instantly put Guardiola on the back foot, in short I think Arsenal is a no.

Then there's Chelsea. It's no secret that Abramovich has long coveted Guardiola, viewing him as the ideal Chelsea coach. Pep, with his promise of beautiful football, youth development and non-divisive methods is Roman's perfect Chelsea manager. Essentially half of the current Chelsea squad was built with Pep in mind, and perhaps the idea of succeeding his rival Mourinho where he has failed would give him a kind of vindictive pleasure, though that's not really Pep's way. The negatives though far outweigh the positives. At Chelsea, amongst the fans Mourinho is king, a messiah figure, and Pep, and his vision of football, is the enemy. Could Pep really win over a fan base so rabidly devoted to Mourinho? Perhaps but it would be a monumental task and would waste boundless energy. Chelsea, a club who since Roman arrived, have never been able to embrace the pervading philosophies of continental football, instead sticking rigidly to a far more familiar English style game. The squad would also need a complete overhaul, locker room cliques would need to be broken, an entirely new way of thinking would have to be spread through the club from top to bottom and the figure of Abramovich casts a large shadow. Pep has already worked for one tyrannical boss (Rosell), he doesn't need another. Despite the allure of London and wealth, I don't think Chelsea is the club for Pep.

So that's it, as I said, in my opinion he would do better to avoid England. As you can even see from some comments on this thread, Britain (and Ireland) is its own little bubble, cut off from the rest of Europe. Most haven't followed his career closely, they don't understand what he does or why he does it, they don't understand his significance to football in the 21st century. It's a pointless battle that, in my opinion, is unwinnable. In Spain, in Germany, it's about the project, it's about coaching and developing the collective, in England it's about plugging gaps in the squad by spending 30 million pound and playing the media game off the field. To steal a quote that I believe will apply to Pep's time in England, "don't argue with idiots because they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. "

Jan Laco

He's a fraudster. Going from already successful clubs to successful club, just riding the crest of waves. I have more respect for Tony Pulis and relegation battling managers than these cameo managers.

ronjo

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I did get a call from what I assumed was a wrong number this morning....Maybe it was......
"

Thanks for the detailed reply.

Personally I would love him to go to Arsenal.
If Arsenal do win the league this year there is always a chance Wenger may decide to go out on a high and retire one year early and while I thought Klopp would have been ideal, I think Pep could be great too. It would be great to see him do it at a club without pretty much unlimited spending resources.