gaslighting

melissak

Hi ah
I recently encountered the term gaslighting, a form of emotional abuse where someone makes another person think they are crazy/paranoid. My question is if someone was in such a relationship how would they know that they were being gaslighted and not actually crazy/paranoid etc. It seems to me it would be a bit of a catch 22. Anyone have any experience of this?

Geoffrey Dalton

Personal forum op maybe?

endacl

Geoffrey Dalton wrote: »

Personal forum op maybe?

Why?

No such forum, btw...

Doc

Not sure if its appropriate to make a Dutch oven joke or not...

the evasion_kid

yep,drives you crazy....better off saying nothing and giving them enough rope to hang themselves...

Geoffrey Dalton

endacl wrote: »

Why?

No such forum, btw...

Personal issues forum.

MadsL

Are you asking about this again, like the fifth time, obsessive much...















</gaslight>

melissak

Geoffrey Dalton wrote: »

Personal forum op maybe?

It is not a personal issues for me if that is what you mean. I was just reading about it and wondered how would you know as it refers to making someone doubt their own perceptions and often isolating a person from others. If you doubted your own mind, the person you loved said you were mad and you didn't see anyone else to ask them. How would you know? It got me thinking..

steddyeddy

I encountered lots of abused teenagers for UCD's HEAR programme. What you describe is common enough. IMHO the most common way they decide that something's wrong is if someone else tells them. I.e one of the girls had all her mail opened by her father and he didn't believe in privacy.

She thought it was the norm but everyone she mentioned it to was shocked.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Personally I'm kind of at the stage where i know my strengths, I know my flaws. I know I'm not an overly paranoid or jealous person, unless given a reason, and then they reap what they sow. So, if I'm being accused of being crazy well there's no doubt about it, I'll show them crazy. I don't think I'd let someone chip away at my confidence bit by bit, making me feel paranoid.

Conall Cernach

I think it would depend on what the perpetrator was actually doing to make the victim think they were going mad. If the abuser is claiming that the victim said something when they believe they haven't then they could start surreptitiously recording conversations on their phone. If they abuser is undoing stuff the victim has done like turning the oven off and then claiming the victim didn't turn it on in the first place then they could take a pic of the oven being on, for instance.

Penny Tration

I think that after a while of being told you're crazy, most people would reach out to a friend or a forum and seek advice. When the advice is a resounding "no, you're being rational," then the person will start to slowly realise what's going on.

melissak

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Personally I'm kind of at the stage where i know my strengths, I know my flaws. I know I'm not an overly paranoid or jealous person, unless given a reason, and then they reap what they sow. So, if I'm being accused of being crazy well there's no doubt about it, I'll show them crazy. I don't think I'd let someone chip away at my confidence bit by bit, making me feel paranoid.

I think abusers choose victims that are likely to be receptive to their abuse. I read that it is common for someone with disfunctional childhoods to suffer this
this. This makes it all the sadder to me because they couldn't trust their parents etc advice as they know they are flawed

melissak

Penny Tration wrote: »

I think that after a while of being told you're crazy, most people would reach out to a friend or a forum and seek advice. When the advice is a resounding "no, you're being rational," then the person will start to slowly realise what's going on.

Yes true. Forums like boards are probably a great help. Ironically I didn't think of this despite coming on here to ask about it!!

arayess

I've thought gaslighting was as you described but as a result of the person making up things the other person supposedly did and them not remembering (cos it wasn't true) but the first person being so insistent that the second person starts to think it's true.

yes i experienced this .
My ex with whom I've my son does it a lot to people it's not just me .
But she does it by way of lies rather than to try make you think you are mad.

for example
when we would go drinking she'd say things like i threatened to hit her (or was violent to her) or abused somebody (usually one of her friends) and she'd be all hurt and offended for days.
So anyway I figured I was either drinking too much or she was lying .
Cos i'd never hit any previous girlfriend or thought about it.
I was suspicious of this drama coupled with the fact I didn't remember the incidents.

So one time I had 2 bottles of beer and drank soft drinks the rest of the night telling her it was jack daniels and coke. Sure enough later on that night she was crying that I had hit her and i was just too locked to remember.
It was the beginning of the end cos I knew i didn't want to be with somebody so bat**** mental and such allegations were dangerous.

She would do this to other friends who she wanted to control, tell them they'd offended her in some way they couldn't remember.

Her trick was that it was usually minorish (unless drink was involved) so a person would think "maybe i did that and didn't realise" and she'd be so insistent that you think "she is so sure of herself ".

The answer is yes you can see through it but probably not the first few times as you've no cause to doubt the person.

lawlolawl

I experienced gaslighting in my safe space and it triggered me immensely.

arayess

steddyeddy wrote: »

I encountered lots of abused teenagers for UCD's HEAR programme. What you describe is common enough. IMHO the most common way they decide that something's wrong is if someone else tells them. I.e one of the girls had all her mail opened by her father and he didn't believe in privacy.

She thought it was the norm but everyone she mentioned it to was shocked.

it isn't the norm :eek::eek:
my mother opened my mail until I left home.
her house , her rules was her mantra.

melissak

That must have been so disturbing. Glad you saw through it. Has she issues with your son regarding this, if you don't mind me asking?

arayess wrote: »

I've thought gaslighting was as you described but as a result of the person making up things the other person supposedly did and them not remembering (cos it wasn't true) but the first person being so insistent that the second person starts to think it's true.

yes i experienced this .
My ex with whom I've my son does it a lot to people it's not just me .
But she does it by way of lies rather than to try make you think you are mad.

for example
when we would go drinking she'd say things like i threatened to hit her (or was violent to her) or abused somebody (usually one of her friends) and she'd be all hurt and offended for days.
So anyway I figured I was either drinking too much or she was lying .
Cos i'd never hit any previous girlfriend or thought about it i was suspicious of this drama coupled with the fact I didn't remember the incidents.

So one time I had 2 bottles of beer and drank soft drinks the rest of the night telling her it was jack daniels and coke. Sure enough later on that night she was crying that I had hit her and i was just too locked to remember.
It was the beginning of the end cos I knew i didn't want to be with somebody so bat**** mental and such allegations were dangerous.

She would do this to other friends who she wanted to control, tell them they'd offended her in some way they couldn't remember.

Her trick was that it was usually minorish (unless drink was involved) so a person would think "maybe i did that and didn't realise" and she'd be so insistent that you think "she is so sure of herself ".

The answer is yes you can see through it but probably not the first few times as you've no cause to doubt the person.

Wibbs

arayess wrote: »

It was the beginning of the end cos I knew i didn't want to be with somebody so bat**** mental and such allegations were dangerous.

Beginning of the end? Wow A you've way more patience than me. She'd be gone the next morning. My beginning of the end would have been the getting drunk ruse. If I'm at that stage of suspicion an eject strategy would be afoot. Of course sharing you kid makes that more difficult and devious nutters can keep you hooked, even with the best will in the world. Been there, but after that I was left with an extremely sensitive crazy detector. Can't be dealing with that kinda nonsense at all.

orubiru

melissak wrote: »

Hi ah
I recently encountered the term gaslighting, a form of emotional abuse where someone makes another person think they are crazy/paranoid. My question is if someone was in such a relationship how would they know that they were being gaslighted and not actually crazy/paranoid etc. It seems to me it would be a bit of a catch 22. Anyone have any experience of this?

Yes.

You would not necessarily know that you were being "gaslighted" but if you are suspicious then you should begin by looking at the facts of situations.

It might sound creepy and a bit weird but you should start taking notes of things that have happened, dates and times. Take notes of facts, not feelings. Even if it's just typing quick notes into your phone. Think about contradictions and patterns in the facts.

Where did you learn about gas-lighting? You should be cautious that the person or persons who have pointed out gas-lighting to you may in fact be participating in these kind of manipulation techniques and pointing them out to you can be a way of diverting suspicion or clouding your judgement. This is a tactic commonly employed by religions, cults and other such groups. They point out the way others are messing with your head but actually they are the ones doing the messing.

It can be difficult to tell. This is why you need to keep an objective mind and look at the facts.

Some people might engage in this sort of behavior over daft stuff like household chores or paying the bills. Others might be deliberately trying to control every aspect of your life.

If you feel like it is being done to you then be open to the possibility that you might just be wrong or might be blowing it out of proportion. You may even be encouraged to blow it out of proportion by third parties (it's not uncommon for relationships to be ruined by religious friends turning them against each other).

So establish the facts first and then, if possible, talk to the person who might be doing this. Be aware that other people mentioning "gas-lighting" to you may not actually have your best interests in mind.

Be aware that manipulation will be part of most human behaviour in one way or another. You really just want to avoid extremes and you don't want to blow minor things out of proportion.

Badly Drunk Boy

I've never heard the term but I presume it comes from the Hitchcock film Gaslight, where Ingrid Bergman's character was convinced she was going mad (by her husband).

LordSutch

Talking of gaslighting, did you know that there is still some "Dickensian type" gaslighting in London.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2848038/The-magical-job-Britain-Enchanting-story-gas-street-lights-five-men-burning-just-did-Dickens-day.html

Interesting

melissak

I read about it on the personal issues forum and looked it up. I find psychology fascinating and this seems like a very tricky one.

orubiru wrote: »

Yes.

You would not necessarily know that you were being "gaslighted" but if you are suspicious then you should begin by looking at the facts of situations.

It might sound creepy and a bit wired but you should start taking notes of things that have happened, dates and times. Take notes of facts, not feelings. Even if it's just typing quick notes into your phone. Think about contradictions and patterns in the facts.

Where did you learn about gas-lighting? You should be cautious that the person or persons who have pointed out gas-lighting to you may in fact be participating in these kind of manipulation techniques and pointing them out to you can be a way of diverting suspicion or clouding your judgement. This is a tactic commonly employed by religions, cults and other such groups. They point out the way others are messing with your head but actually they are the ones doing the messing.

It can be difficult to tell. This is why you need to keep an objective mind and look at the facts.

Some people might engage in this sort of behavior over daft stuff like household chores or paying the bills. Others might be deliberately trying to control every aspect of your life.

If you feel like it is being done to you then be open to the possibility that you might just be wrong or might be blowing it out of proportion. You may even be encouraged to blow it out of proportion by third parties (it's not uncommon for relationships to be ruined by religious friends turning them against each other).

So establish the facts first and then, if possible, talk to the person who might be doing this. Be aware that other people mentioning "gas-lighting" to you may not actually have your best interests in mind.

Be aware that manipulation will be part of most human behaviour in one way or another. You really just want to avoid extremes and you don't want to blow minor things out of proportion.

arayess

melissak wrote: »

That must have been so disturbing. Glad you saw through it. Has she issues with your son regarding this, if you don't mind me asking?

No .not to him about him, well what i'm aware of.
But she does it (for want of better wording) by proxy.

What i mean is :

She plays the victim to him constantly and she always tells him things I did that are completely made up or that are true but twists it using emotive language to make her a victim and distorts the scene so much that its' no longer true and describes something that didn't happen . She has cried on front of him over things I said to her.

He is 16 so it's not really having much effect anymore but it did for a few years. he never really disowned me but he was annoyed about what I did to his mam. But I think he knew deep down it wasn't true as he says she exaggerates stuff.

arayess

Wibbs wrote: »

Beginning of the end? Wow A you've way more patience than me. She'd be gone the next morning. My beginning of the end would have been the getting drunk ruse. If I'm at that stage of suspicion an eject strategy would be afoot. Of course sharing you kid makes that more difficult and devious nutters can keep you hooked, even with the best will in the world. Been there, but after that I was left with an extremely sensitive crazy detector. Can't be dealing with that kinda nonsense at all.

ah for sure. the kid kept me there ..I had to make sure of things and plan things before I left. I'm kinda methodical like that in all aspects of life.

Otherwise i'd be gone, it wasn't patience that kept me .
we weren't married so I'd to sort out guardianship and stuff before we split.

Edit*
I was also a lot younger then about 23 . I didn't have the life experience I had now and I was worried of losing access to my son . I thought long and hard about things and didn't make any rash decisions although i knew deep down what was going to happen.

brooke 2

Badly Drunk Boy wrote: »

I've never heard the term but I presume it comes from the Hitchcock film Gaslight, where Ingrid Bergman's character was convinced she was going mad (by her husband).

That is my understanding of the term.

orubiru

arayess wrote: »

I've thought gaslighting was as you described but as a result of the person making up things the other person supposedly did and them not remembering (cos it wasn't true) but the first person being so insistent that the second person starts to think it's true.

yes i experienced this .
My ex with whom I've my son does it a lot to people it's not just me .
But she does it by way of lies rather than to try make you think you are mad.

for example
when we would go drinking she'd say things like i threatened to hit her (or was violent to her) or abused somebody (usually one of her friends) and she'd be all hurt and offended for days.
So anyway I figured I was either drinking too much or she was lying .
Cos i'd never hit any previous girlfriend or thought about it.
I was suspicious of this drama coupled with the fact I didn't remember the incidents.

So one time I had 2 bottles of beer and drank soft drinks the rest of the night telling her it was jack daniels and coke. Sure enough later on that night she was crying that I had hit her and i was just too locked to remember.
It was the beginning of the end cos I knew i didn't want to be with somebody so bat**** mental and such allegations were dangerous.

She would do this to other friends who she wanted to control, tell them they'd offended her in some way they couldn't remember.

Her trick was that it was usually minorish (unless drink was involved) so a person would think "maybe i did that and didn't realise" and she'd be so insistent that you think "she is so sure of herself ".

The answer is yes you can see through it but probably not the first few times as you've no cause to doubt the person.

I can relate to this. I don't really like to use personal anecdotes to make a point but I had a very similar experience with an ex myself.

We had an argument, one of an endless series, and I left the apartment. Somewhat randomly, I drove round to her friends house in the hope of organizing some kind of intervention.

She ended up getting caught out when she phoned that friend saying she was locked in the bathroom and I was threatening to kick the door down to get to her. I was sitting in the friends living room at the time of the phone call. I got lucky. Who really knows what would have happened if I had made a different decision.

The moral of the story is that if you are in a toxic relationship then you have two choices. 1. Get counseling. 2. Get out.

I understand that people are often crippled by the fear of leaving or the fear of what will happen if they try to leave.

Unfortunately, there is a severe lack of education on how to form healthy and rewarding relationships. A lot of folks just look to their parents as an example. This can be disastrous.

The best thing for everyone to do is to try to educate themselves and do your best.

valoren

I've had my brother do this to me.

Four years ago, I was on a night out with him, his wife and his in-laws in a pub.
It was a normal night out until a drunk young fella accidentally brushed against my brother's father in law.
The father in law, not aggressively, asked the drunk to watch where he was going.
The drunk told him to fcuk off. My brother, a hothead, launched at the drunk and was about to throw a punch.
I jumped between him and told him to calm down. Shouts and insults were thrown back until one of the drunks friends intervened and took him away. They left shortly after. End of story.

Until recently.

During a recent argument with my brother (about a lot of money owed back to me), he brought up that night out 4 years ago, and he now claims that it was me who went psycho at some random stranger on that night out. That it was he who had to pull me off him. That this was the kind of person I am and that he has told everyone that this is the kind of person I am. That his wife's family are reluctant to socialise with me because of my temper and violent tendencies, they were frightened by my behaviour that night you get the picture. :rolleyes:

Medusa22

I've had a couple of unhealthy relationships where I have been gaslighted, and in both cases it took me a long time to realise it. Then when I look back on the relationship I realise so many things that I didn't realise at the time, often you just can't see it when you're in it, there are red flags but you doubt yourself so much, and the person manipulating you is incredibly good at making you feel confused.

People often think that you must be somehow very weak or unsure of yourself but these people are incredibly adept at making you doubt yourself and choosing moments of vulnerability, especially when you attempt to assert yourself or stand up for yourself. I can be quite trusting, and gullible and naive, and I've learned the hard way that not everyone is to be trusted, most people are completely grand but I think that others just see me coming a mile away so I've tried to put a guard up to protect myself somewhat.

melissak

To people who have experienced this, do you think the perpetrator is necessarily aware that they are doing this, is it an intentional attempt to hurt/control or just a funked up way of relating to others?

seamus

arayess wrote: »

it isn't the norm :eek::eek:
my mother opened my mail until I left home.
her house , her rules was her mantra.

No...
Even my 3 year old gets to open her own post.

Up to a certain age it's pretty normal that parents just do whatever the hell they like. But if someone is 16 or over and their parents are going into their bedrooms to do anything more than collect dishes and dirty clothes, then you've got a problem.

I don't think this is gaslighting though in the true sense, just overbearing parents not being able to let go.

valoren wrote: »

During a recent argument with my brother (about a lot of money owed back to me), he brought up that night out 4 years ago, and he now claims that it was me who went psycho at some random stranger on that night out. That it was he who had to pull me off him. That this was the kind of person I am and that he has told everyone that this is the kind of person I am. That his wife's family are reluctant to socialise with me because of my temper and violent tendencies, they were frightened by my behaviour that night you get the picture. :rolleyes:

But...they were all there. How has he convinced them that you're the one who lost the head, when incident happened right next to them?

Medusa22

melissak wrote: »

To people who have experienced this, do you think the perpetrator is necessarily aware that they are doing this, is it an intentional attempt to hurt/control or just a funked up way of relating to others?

I think, well in my experience anyway, that they are both aware and unaware at the same time, they seem to practice some sort of cognitive dissonance, or ''double think'' I suppose to live with what they are doing and to justify it. On some level they know that what they are doing is wrong, but they often try to paint themselves as the victim or the person who is being hard done by, in my case I was often made to feel like I had done something wrong or bad or hurtful, and I think that both guys partially believed I had done something wrong or hurtful, but at the same time they were aware that I hadn't really, it was their perception that was skewed.

valoren

seamus wrote: »

But...they were all there. How has he convinced them that you're the one who lost the head, when incident happened right next to them?

It's being twisted around and spun against me because we've subsequently fallen out. They all know what happened. He's a part of their bubble now, a clique, their way of thinking and is willfully telling blatant lies about his own brother. I'm fair game for gas lighting now. That particular incident is now used as their word against mine. Conveniently for them, no one else was there to confirm what actually happened so they are all free to invent what they claim happened and to discredit me.

To give an example,

Say you were out walking your dog.
You see your brother and his father in law approaching you.
You say "Hello"
They both shun and turn their heads away, ignoring you.
A year later, you hear that they have been telling people/their own circle of friends & family that they saw you out walking your dog, they both said hello to you but YOU turned your head away and ignored THEM.
That you are arrogant, ignorant and despicable because of that etc etc.

How can you prove that you actually did the opposite? That it's THEM who are lying etc. It's crazymaking.

steddyeddy

Penny Tration wrote: »

I think that after a while of being told you're crazy, most people would reach out to a friend or a forum and seek advice. When the advice is a resounding "no, you're being rational," then the person will start to slowly realise what's going on.

You're forgetting a few variables such as confidence eroding and attraction to abuser.

Unfortunately we put more faith in someone we love than people on a message board.

Azalea

Badly Drunk Boy wrote: »

I've never heard the term but I presume it comes from the Hitchcock film Gaslight, where Ingrid Bergman's character was convinced she was going mad (by her husband).

Yep.

steddyeddy

arayess wrote: »

it isn't the norm :eek::eek:
my mother opened my mail until I left home.
her house , her rules was her mantra.

No it's not. It becomes gas lighting when they convince you you're wrong to question it.

Paramite Pie

arayess wrote: »

it isn't the norm :eek::eek:
my mother opened my mail until I left home.
her house , her rules was her mantra.

Nope, overbearing mother. Granted, they probably grew up with little privacy themselves - me mam shared a bed with 4 other siblings. Establishing privacy boundaries like knocking was new to her!:pac:

She never opened my mail though.

seamus wrote: »

But if someone is 16 or over and their parents are going into their bedrooms to do anything more than collect dishes and dirty clothes, then you've got a problem.

Dishes in the bedroom? Eating in a bedroom was a huge no no in my house growing up, and I've only ever had one house mate who did that. It's not actually a common thing is it?

KomradeBishop

In relation to this, I came across the very interesting term 'zersetzung' recently - the Stasi in East Germany, used a highly professionalised form of gaslighting, combined with a totalitarian surveillance state, to try and destroy targets mental health, social lives, and lives in general:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zersetzung

Insect Overlord

Sounds a bit like the inspiration behind Roald Dahl's "The Twits", but less funny.

melissak

KomradeBishop wrote: »

In relation to this, I came across the very interesting term 'zersetzung' recently - the Stasi in East Germany, used a highly professionalised form of gaslighting, combined with a totalitarian surveillance state, to try and destroy targets mental health, social lives, and lives in general:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zersetzung

Yes I read that a couple of days ago. Can you put up a link to that case in England, I can't find it now and oh does not believe me. It is one of the most fcuked up things I have seen in a while.

seamus

Paramite Pie wrote: »

Dishes in the bedroom? Eating in a bedroom was a huge no no in my house growing up, and I've only ever had one house mate who did that. It's not actually a common thing is it?

Bringing up a cup of tea, sandwich when studying. Glass of water at nighttime, etc.

Eating dinner in your bedroom itself would be odd, but bringing up a snack or some drinks not so much. Especially in a busy house where your bedroom might be your only refuge when you're reading or something.

custard gannet

We run the gas off the electricity and the electricity off the gas and we save two hundred pounds a year.

melissak

custard gannet wrote: »

We run the gas off the electricity and the electricity off the gas and we save two hundred pounds a year.

How? What?

KomradeBishop

melissak wrote: »

Yes I read that a couple of days ago. Can you put up a link to that case in England, I can't find it now and oh does not believe me. It is one of the most fcuked up things I have seen in a while.

Oh yea, from the last time I posted it - the way GCHQ (UK) spies targeted political activists - having sex, getting into relationships with, and even having babies with minor political activists - then just disappearing - humiliating and massively screwing up the lives of some:

KomradeBishop wrote: »

I came across the term Zersetsung recently, which is a fascinating/terrifying article on how the DDR/Stasi utilised spying to directly target political activists/opponents, in order to destroy their mental-health/personality/lives, through an extremely fúcked up and professionalized form of 'gaslighting'.

When you read about the type of mass surveillance under operation today, and read about some of the things the UK has done to target just very low-level political activists - ruining the lives of some in the process - when you see all of this, you realize that it's fairly plausible that we may see a lurch towards that kind of surveillance state in the near future, and that terrorists (even if they successfully end up murdering thousands) are far less of a threat to the general public, than those who would roll back our civil liberties, and enable all these sorts of state abuses.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/nov/20/met-police-apologise-women-had-relationships-with-undercover-officers

So yea, it's not gaslighting, but be sure that - given the prevalence of the NSA/GCHQ spying, and the depths their respective intelligence agencies are willing to plumb, when it comes to lack of morals - they probably deploy similar tactics themselves.

melissak

Would that not be rape by fraud? Is rape in your oewn country, when officially sanctioned, a war crime?

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Oh yea, from the last time I posted it - the way GCHQ (UK) spies targeted political activists - having sex, getting into relationships with, and even having babies with minor political activists - then just disappearing - humiliating and massively screwing up the lives of some:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/nov/20/met-police-apologise-women-had-relationships-with-undercover-officers

So yea, it's not gaslighting, but be sure that - given the prevalence of the NSA/GCHQ spying, and the depths their respective intelligence agencies are willing to plumb, when it comes to lack of morals - they probably deploy similar tactics themselves.

ancapailldorcha

seamus wrote: »

No...
Even my 3 year old gets to open her own post.

Up to a certain age it's pretty normal that parents just do whatever the hell they like. But if someone is 16 or over and their parents are going into their bedrooms to do anything more than collect dishes and dirty clothes, then you've got a problem.

Yeah, I thought this as well. My folks would do the same to me. It continued until I emigrated. I remember getting a letter from my alma mater and my Dad roaring at me over the phone when I asked him not to open it. I let him and it was a survey or some other irrelevance.

KomradeBishop

melissak wrote: »

Would that not be rape by fraud? Is rape in your oewn country, when officially sanctioned, a war crime?

Good question - I don't know, but think it could be - that seems to be something relatively new as far as courts are concerned, where precedent is still being set in courts:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_deception

Earthhorse

melissak wrote: »

I recently encountered the term gaslighting, a form of emotional abuse where someone makes another person think they are crazy/paranoid. My question is if someone was in such a relationship how would they know that they were being gaslighted and not actually crazy/paranoid etc. It seems to me it would be a bit of a catch 22.

You're right, it would be a difficult trap to escape from once you found yourself in it.

I suppose they eventually do some form of internal check with their gut and decide that a line has been crossed. Another good check they could do is ask themselves if a friend described the situation to them what advice would they give. Removing yourself from the equation can sometimes be a good way of clearing your head.

The tactics of gaslighters are successful though in part because they make victims forget about themselves. What I mean is, the focus becomes how the gaslighter is embarrassed or hurt by this crazy behaviour (which isn't actually crazy behaviour of course) and so the victim, who doesn't want to hurt their loved one begins to think about how they can change so it doesn't happen. They've sort of bought into the narrative at that point and I'd say it does take a line being crossed before they buy back out again.

orubiru

Medusa22 wrote: »

I think, well in my experience anyway, that they are both aware and unaware at the same time, they seem to practice some sort of cognitive dissonance, or ''double think'' I suppose to live with what they are doing and to justify it. On some level they know that what they are doing is wrong, but they often try to paint themselves as the victim or the person who is being hard done by, in my case I was often made to feel like I had done something wrong or bad or hurtful, and I think that both guys partially believed I had done something wrong or hurtful, but at the same time they were aware that I hadn't really, it was their perception that was skewed.

In a lot of cases they actually have been a victim at some point in their past.

Unfortunately one of the ways many abusers "learn" to abuse is because they have been victims themselves.

Gas-lighting is one of those things that really is a learned behavior. If a parent has been unreasonably demanding, or if a parent is obviously wrong, but the kid is not allowed to challenge them on that then the kid may learn that this is the way to assert yourself or to have power over another person.

In other cases, such as with religions or cults, gas-lighting tactics are used because the victim is not trusted and so there is an effort to control how they think or what they feel able to do.

The idea of being a sinner even though you don't feel like you've done anything wrong, for example.

See also, "if you think X doesn't affect you then you are actually more likely to be affected".

You may often see things like this on Boards when someone makes a contentious statement and says something preemptive like "the replies to this post will prove just how right I am" so you might be sitting there thinking that you strongly disagree with what's been said but you've been put in the position where to disagree means you are already wrong.

You can imagine all of that translating over to bad or abusive relationships. They make an accusation, you disagree, they say "see! you don't even know you're doing it!" They say something daft, you call them on it, they say "thanks for proving my point".

Junkyard Tom

An File wrote: »

Sounds a bit like the inspiration behind Roald Dahl's "The Twits", but less funny.

One night, when Mrs Twit was asleep, Mr Twit crept out of bed and took her walking stick downstairs to his workshed. There he stuck a tiny round piece of wood (no thicker than a penny) on to the bottom of the stick.

Every night, Mr Twit crept downstairs and added an extra tiny thickness of wood so the end of the walking-stick. He did it very neatly so that the extra bits looked like a part of the old stick. Gradually, but oh so gradually, Mrs Twit’s walking stick was getting longer and longer.

“That stick’s too long for you,” Mr Twit said to her one day.

“Why so it is!” Mrs Twit said, looking at the stick. “I’ve had a feeling there was something wrong, but I couldn’t for the life of me think what it was.”

“There’s something wrong all right,” Mr Twit said, beginning to enjoy himself.

“What can have happened?” Mrs Twit said, staring at her old walking stick. “It must suddenly have grown longer.”

“Don’t be a fool!” Mr Twit said, “How can a walking-stick possibly grow longer? It’s made of dead wood isn’t it? Dead wood can’t grow.”

“Then what on earth has happened?” cried Mrs Twit.

“It’s not your stick, it’s you!” said Mr Twit, grinning horribly. “It’s you that’s getting shorter! I’ve been noticing it for some time now.”

“That’s not true!” cried Mrs Twit.

“You’re shrinking, woman!” said Mr Twit.

“It’s not possible”

“Oh yes it jolly well is,” said Mr Twit. “You’re shrinking fast! You’re shrinking dangerously fast! Why, you must have shrunk at least a foot in the last few days!”

“Never!” she cried.

“Of course you have! Take a look at your stick, you old goat, and see how much you’ve shrunk in comparison! You’ve got the shrinks, that’s what you’ve got! You’ve got the dreaded shrinks!”
Mrs Twit began to feel so trembly she had to sit down.

Roald Dahl.

Medusa22

Earthhorse wrote: »

You're right, it would be a difficult trap to escape from once you found yourself in it.

I suppose they eventually do some form of internal check with their gut and decide that a line has been crossed. Another good check they could do is ask themselves if a friend described the situation to them what advice would they give. Removing yourself from the equation can sometimes be a good way of clearing your head.

The tactics of gaslighters are successful though in part because they make victims forget about themselves. What I mean is, the focus becomes how the gaslighter is embarrassed or hurt by this crazy behaviour (which isn't actually crazy behaviour of course) and so the victim, who doesn't want to hurt their loved one begins to think about how they can change so it doesn't happen. They've sort of bought into the narrative at that point and I'd say it does take a line being crossed before they buy back out again.

This is exactly it. If you're in a relationship and someone tells you that something you are doing/saying hurts them then you might try to argue about why you do it, but if they genuinely seem to be hurt (and maybe they often are) then you may just back down or try to find a way to modify your behaviour so you won't hurt them again. Even though this often means giving up your freedom or independence in some way, but you think that you did something inappropriate so you think it's the right thing to do.