Flooding – dam incompetence

xband

Bear in mind that the height of the river vs its walls at various points isn't he danger point.

Cork City sits on a network of underground rivers that flow under some of the main streets and reclaimed land.

What looks like safe height at the quaysides may not be in the city centre as culverts can cause water to come up from below.

Also, to be fair this time Cork City has (touch wood) remained basically flood free and there has been pretty active management of the dams.

I think though those dams need to be prioritised as flood defences, not power generation. The power generation at times like this should be incidental really. Cost to the economy of a major flood is astronomical compared to the power generated by those dams.

I would rather see them managed by something more like an inland waterways authority.

Impetus

xband wrote: »

Bear in mind that the height of the river vs its walls at various points isn't he danger point.

Cork City sits on a network of underground rivers that flow under some of the main streets and reclaimed land.

What looks like safe height at the quaysides may not be in the city centre as culverts can cause water to come up from below.

Also, to be fair this time Cork City has (touch wood) remained basically flood free and there has been pretty active management of the dams.

I think though those dams need to be prioritised as flood defences, not power generation. The power generation at times like this should be incidental really. Cost to the economy of a major flood is astronomical compared to the power generated by those dams.

I would rather see them managed by something more like an inland waterways authority.

While one agrees with your statement that the dam use should be prioritized as flood defence, I think we have enough "Authorities" in name.

Look at the Dublin Airports Authority - it is an airport operating company, like FRAPort AG in Frankfurt or Flughafen Zürich AG - that should be there to provide a good service to the customer. Every time I arrive at Dublin or Cork airports, both run by DAA, the stench of urine from the 'designed to be dirty', badly maintained toilets is painful. Ireland has some of the dirtiest, most disgusting airport toilets in Europe. First impressions are lasting etc...

The word "authority" goes to peoples' heads and probably distorts their thinking, and it appears to me that it makes them forget their primary duty which, in DAA's case, is to operate a clean, efficient airport with a minimum of delays, with regard for public safety rather than a focus on compliance and robot-ism.

Something like 'Irish Rivers'. The less said the better.

There is no reason why a power station operator should not make 'huge amounts' of hydro power during heavy rain. They just have to recognise that it is coming down faster than they can ‘process’ it. The use of upstream storage, and flood contingency land licensing would increase the overall amount of water available for power generation – because the upstream reserves could be released in a more controlled manner.

Impetus

hytrogen wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/former-canals-may-be-useful-in-alleviating-future-flooding-1.2484961

A perhaps unpopular suggestion due to the costs but as the locals suggest every millimeter counts. What Colin Becker may not be quoted on or mentioning is the economic opportunity through tourism and trade of extending the navigation through these derelict parts that could be recouped.

The problem with tourism, boating and the river Lee is a) in Summer river and reservoir levels can run very low - which would make the choice of boat very limited - beyond a RIB, and b) It is the source of the city's water supply and therefore has to be kept as clean as possible. A dry-ish river is not very attractive to a tourist.

BoatMad

Water extraction and boating are entirely compatible. Every town on the Shannon consumes the river water for drinking and it's the biggest area of pleasure boating in the state.

xband

Impetus wrote: »

While one agrees with your statement that the dam use should be prioritized as flood defence, I think we have enough "Authorities" in name.

Look at the Dublin Airports Authority - it is an airport operating company, like FRAPort AG in Frankfurt or Flughafen Zürich AG - that should be there to provide a good service to the customer. Every time I arrive at Dublin or Cork airports, both run by DAA, the stench of urine from the 'designed to be dirty', badly maintained toilets is painful. Ireland has some of the dirtiest, most disgusting airport toilets in Europe. First impressions are lasting etc...

The word "authority" goes to peoples' heads and probably distorts their thinking, and it appears to me that it makes them forget their primary duty which, in DAA's case, is to operate a clean, efficient airport with a minimum of delays, with regard for public safety rather than a focus on compliance and robot-ism.

Something like 'Irish Rivers'. The less said the better.

There is no reason why a power station operator should not make 'huge amounts' of hydro power during heavy rain. They just have to recognise that it is coming down faster than they can ‘process’ it. The use of upstream storage, and flood contingency land licensing would increase the overall amount of water available for power generation – because the upstream reserves could be released in a more controlled manner.

Someone has never flown through Charles de Gaulle!

Impetus

xband wrote: »

Someone has never flown through Charles de Gaulle!

I fly through CDG frequently. The toilets there are excellent. And I'm not just talking about the three Air France terminals (T2E, T2F and T2G). Even in the crappy T1, as used by Aer Lingus has clean toilets. It seems to me that you haven't been to CDG for five years or so -- at least not to a toilet there.

Impetus

BoatMad wrote: »

Water extraction and boating are entirely compatible. Every town on the Shannon consumes the river water for drinking and it's the biggest area of pleasure boating in the state.

The Shannon is a big river, constantly flowing slowly. The Lee turns into a small river during dry summers (joke). There would be far less dilution in the Lee (of pollutants).

PS have you looked at the water inspection reports for water systems that extract water from the Shannon, and how clean the water is?

BoatMad

Impetus wrote: »

The Shannon is a big river, constantly flowing slowly. The Lee turns into a small river during dry summers (joke). There would be far less dilution in the Lee (of pollutants).

PS have you looked at the water inspection reports for water systems that extract water from the Shannon, and how clean the water is?

Yes. But that is a function of untreated public sewerage and farm runoff

The situation is improving however

BoatMad

Impetus wrote: »

I fly through CDG frequently. The toilets there are excellent. And I'm not just talking about the three Air France terminals (T2E, T2F and T2G). Even in the crappy T1, as used by Aer Lingus has clean toilets. It seems to me that you haven't been to CDG for five years or so -- at least not to a toilet there.

CDG is the biggest dump on the planet. It's a science fiction dytopian fubar

hytrogen

Impetus wrote: »

The problem with tourism, boating and the river Lee is a) in Summer river and reservoir levels can run very low - which would make the choice of boat very limited - beyond a RIB, and b) It is the source of the city's water supply and therefore has to be kept as clean as possible. A dry-ish river is not very attractive to a tourist.

Again the reason the water systems dry up during the summer is again by mismanagement of the reservoirs for the power generation systems. Last summer was probably had the wettest one on record and yet boats were still running aground on the Shannon and canals.
Overall it shows we have severely neglected our waterways over the past century, from building on flood plains to failing to dredge out canals and navigable drainage systems to even basic housekeeping of keeping the bathing water quality in pristine condition by allowing Jolly jack the Sailor bring his new superfast powerboat up a navigation way without scrubbing her hull and therefore contaminating the local eco system with Zebra mussels (Shannon during the Tiger days)

hytrogen

Impetus wrote: »

The Shannon is a big river, constantly flowing slowly. The Lee turns into a small river during dry summers (joke). There would be far less dilution in the Lee (of pollutants).

PS have you looked at the water inspection reports for water systems that extract water from the Shannon, and how clean the water is?

Agreed on the dilution part but there shouldn't be any human Fecal matter found in any of our waterways in the first place had we the correct infrastructures.

Impetus

BoatMad wrote: »

CDG is the biggest dump on the planet. It's a science fiction dytopian fubar

If you don’t like concrete architecture, you won’t like Charles de Gaulle T1. However, it has more direct flights to more locations than any other airport. It was designed from the ground up to have 9 terminals.

They were built over the years and are now in place. It has two railway stations, one of which has TGV service direct to French and Belgian cities without the need for transiting Paris. CDG to Lyon (500km) is about 2h and to Brussels (283 km)is about 1h30 by rail. It has four runways – Dublin has only one, and Heathrow only 2. It has a site of 32 km2, so big that it is in three local authority areas. You can park a car in T2F for example and the walk from your car to the gate is only a few hundred metres. It has an automated train system to take you from long term car parking to the terminals which run every 3 minutes or so.


The Air France terminals 2E, 2F and 2G have probably the best airline lounges in the world, with the best food. I use CDG several times a month.


It is run by ADP, a corporation not an authority.

Can we please move back to back to River flooding in IRL?

xband

Impetus wrote: »

If you don’t like concrete architecture, you won’t like Charles de Gaulle T1. However, it has more direct flights to more locations than any other airport. It was designed from the ground up to have 9 terminals.

They were built over the years and are now in place. It has two railway stations, one of which has TGV service direct to French and Belgian cities without the need for transiting Paris. CDG to Lyon (500km) is about 2h and to Brussels (283 km)is about 1h30 by rail. It has four runways – Dublin has only one, and Heathrow only 2. It has a site of 32 km2, so big that it is in three local authority areas. You can park a car in T2F for example and the walk from your car to the gate is only a few hundred metres. It has an automated train system to take you from long term car parking to the terminals which run every 3 minutes or so.


The Air France terminals 2E, 2F and 2G have probably the best airline lounges in the world, with the best food. I use CDG several times a month.


It is run by ADP, a corporation not an authority.

Can we please move back to back to River flooding in IRL?

Yeah, it has transit connections and planning but ...
It still scores 3/10 on Skytrax and was rated most hated airport in the world by CNN a few years ago. I've personally found it a really unpleasant experience a few times. The toilets pre check in in T1 were covered in graffiti last time I was thorough and I had the horrific experience if a guy urinating against the wall of the coach of the RER-B then smashing a wine bottle on the floor....

The signage is also very, very bad. It's one of the few airports I've been literally lost in.

I'm not a fan of the place (especially T1) and it'll take some convincing otherwise

Anyway back to Ireland's inundation...

I see transport infrastructure Ireland TII is going to raise the height of areas of the N25 Cork Waterford road as a matter of urgency and has given Cork County Council the go ahead to start!

Macha

[mod] Yep, let's leave CDG out of this discussion. [/mod]

xband

So what do people make of this TII (NRA) proposal to rapidly higher sections of the N25?

Markcheese

How much are they going to raise it by -and anyone know what caused the sudden problem .. ( dont say the rain :-)

Impetus

xband wrote: »

Yeah, it has transit connections and planning but ...
It still scores 3/10 on Skytrax and was rated most hated airport in the world by CNN a few years ago. I've personally found it a really unpleasant experience a few times. The toilets pre check in in T1 were covered in graffiti last time I was thorough and I had the horrific experience if a guy urinating against the wall of the coach of the RER-B then smashing a wine bottle on the floor....

The signage is also very, very bad. It's one of the few airports I've been literally lost in.

The signage system at CDG was completely re-done about five years ago, and is a model of clarity.

Visit the airport again!

xband wrote: »

Anyway back to Ireland's inundation...

I see transport infrastructure Ireland TII is going to raise the height of areas of the N25 Cork Waterford road as a matter of urgency and has given Cork County Council the go ahead to start!

Wonderful! While I am not blaming the current government for the design of the N25, whoever did it way back demonstrated little regard for the customer who paid their salary

And then there is that little matter of a river flooding management system, combined with tidal management for the greater Cork city area which involves a population of about 300'000. The best long term solution would be sine form of flood barrier along the Passage to Great Island and Great Island to East Ferry channels. You could use the same barrier to create a new road between Great island to the mainland (it only has one at present - R624). Fortunately the limitation of the road system has made the suburban rail service to the island very popular for many years. It might even carry a rail bridge to bring freight to Ringaskiddy port and even provide suburban rail to Passage / Cork SE suburbs in the long term.

Speaking of which, there used to be a land use and transportation study in Cork which planned these things for the long term. Alas no longer.

hytrogen

Markcheese wrote: »

How much are they going to raise it by -and anyone know what caused the sudden problem .. ( dont say the rain :-)

From driving it both directions on the same day the weekend as it got closed I saw the strip west of Middleton around healy bros milequarry was deepening as the evening set in as well as the estuary just west of Middleton too. Also to the east at Lough Aderry the lake was starting to overflow onto the roadside as it had already encompassed the layby carpark.

Impetus wrote: »

The signage system at CDG was completely re-done about five years ago, and is a model of clarity.

Visit the airport again!


Wonderful! While I am not blaming the current government for the design of the N25, whoever did it way back demonstrated little regard for the customer who paid their salary

And then there is that little matter of a river flooding management system, combined with tidal management for the greater Cork city area which involves a population of about 300'000. The best long term solution would be sine form of flood barrier along the Passage to Great Island and Great Island to East Ferry channels. You could use the same barrier to create a new road between Great island to the mainland (it only has one at present - R624). Fortunately the limitation of the road system has made the suburban rail service to the island very popular for many years. It might even carry a rail bridge to bring freight to Ringaskiddy port and even provide suburban rail to Passage / Cork SE suburbs in the long term.

Speaking of which, there used to be a land use and transportation study in Cork which planned these things for the long term. Alas no longer.

As I mentioned the estuary west of Middleton thst leads to the east side of great island was a contributor to the flooded parts, bear in mind that that whole area is very very shallow even out into the harbour from east Ferry to Whitegate terminal it's a very shallow shelf in the harbour. A flood defence around that would make little contribution to reduce the flooding, in fact it would probably worsen the drainage needed in the upper courses of the surrounding tributaries

Macha

Impetus wrote: »

The signage system at CDG was completely re-done about five years ago, and is a model of clarity.

Visit the airport again!

[/mod] *Clears throat* [/mod]

Macha wrote: »

[mod] Yep, let's leave CDG out of this discussion. [/mod]