'Japanese Role Playing Games are Terrible!'

Retr0gamer

So sorry for the click grabbing headline that would be more at home on a clickbait advert but this is a view I keep coming across lately and one I just can’t help but think is not only wrong but a bit ignorant. It’s true that on home consoles JRPGs have been having a bad time of it lately. They were once the FPS games of their time, during the PS1 and PS2 era they were the games where each announcement was met with excitement and people could count on each release pushing the hardware and genre in exciting new ways (except for Legend of Dragoon, **** that game). Last gen opened with some promising JRPGs that ended up being disappointments (namely the plain Blue Dragon and Lost Odyssey) before the catastrophic fan reaction over Final Fantasy XIII. I heard some stupid things said after FFXIII, like how the JRPG was dead as a genre, and even stupider people saying how the god awful Ni No Kuni was the saviour of the genre (I’m sorry, I know the game has its fans but it’s not a good game). In the meantime western RPGs had finally gained a foothold on home consoles usurping JRPGs in the process due to some stellar titles from Bioware, CD Projeckt, Obsidian and Bethesda amongst others.

The truth is JRPGs hadn’t gone anywhere. Most developers had moved to handheld devices with the Nintendo DS and PSP, as well as the 3DS and PS Vita having a wealth and variety of JRPG titles unmatched by any other systems. And while the Final Fantasy franchise floundered as square fought to catch up with Western HD videogame development practices other smaller studios produced more modest titles for the PS3 that unfortunately went tragically ignored by the Western mainstream press as they started to only cover big publisher games. Studios such as Gust, Nippon ichi and Tri-Ace continued to support the PS3 with RPG releases.

So back to the main point, why I think saying that JRPGs are terrible is wrong. It’s pretty much akin to saying you hate FPS games or even Indie games. JRPG is a huge and varied genre and even if you hate playing something like Final Fantasy 7 I believe there’s still plenty the genre has to offer that provides a completely different experience to a more traditional JRPG along the lines of Final Fantasy. Most JRPGs differ from western ones in their focus on creating complex battle systems at the expense of actual role playing story choices. However both genres evolved from same roots and there are many RPGs from Japan that stick closer to their influences of Ultima or Wizardry and even some that have taken on MMO combat structures. Dark Souls would probably be the best example with a very western levelling and equipment system but with the combat and boss design sensibilities informed by Japanese development. I’ll be giving some recommendations on games to try with some recommendations for those people that just like their Bioware and Bethesda games and turn their nose up at anything with anime characters. The list is far from comprehensive and I’ve had to cut a lot out due to time constraints including action RPGs like Ys and Secret of Mana.

Retr0gamer

Traditional JRPGs

These are for the people that kid themselves thinking Ni No Kuni is a good game or will play nothing other than Final Fantasy. Hopefully these will help you move out of that comfort zone and try something new. I’d also say that any of the other games in other sections are worthy of trying as well, particularly Persona 3 and 4.

Dragon Quest

Pretty much the Call of Duty of Japan and the one game that will get Japanese people from all walks of life to queue around city blocks on release day. The series is so popular they have to release it on weekends to avoid a mass outbreak of truancy in schools. Dragon Quest is the foundation that traditional JRPGs are built on and therefore as traditional as JRPGs come. The battle system is usually more complex than your average final fantasy game, careful use of status buffs and debuffs are required to defeat bosses and the enemies you encounter have a wide variety of attacks that will keep the player on their toes. Despite never straying from the cute cartoony medieval style many of the Dragon Quest titles have surprisingly strong narratives. Each town you come across also has its own tale to tell and quest to complete before you move on, some of which can be surprisingly affecting.

If there is one Dragon Quest title to try it would have to be Dragon Quest V. Adding monsters as guest characters to your party is great fun and it’s got one of the strongest main narratives of any RPG, going to some surprisingly dark places. The best place to play this game is on DS. I’d also recommend Dragon Quest 8. It’s quite simple in terms of combat and narrative compared to most Dragon Quest games but it’s got bags of charm and is just a really fun game to play. It’s a bit harder to get hold of being a PS2 game but should be coming to 3DS soon.

Try: If you like JRPGs with strong stories, characters and are just a lot of fun to play

Avoid: If you don’t like very traditional JRPGs or are turned off by cartoon visuals. Random battles until Dragon Quest IX

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RVS_bmWgtQ

Chrono Trigger

Chrono Trigger is what happens when you get the creators of Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy to work on a game together. It’s one of the best looking and sounding games of the 16 bit generation and while the battle system can be quite simple it never bogs the game down. The time travelling plot is an engaging rollercoaster ride and the game never gets bogged down mostly due to its brevity, it’s at most 25 hours long. The best way to play it would be the DS port or via emulation. Stay away from the PS1 port on PSN which adds long load times that bog the game down significantly.

Try: If you love traditional Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest gameplay, this might just be the best example. No random battles

Avoid: If you hate fun

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVl6Ue9r-Oo

The Atelier series
The Atelier franchise has long been ignored by the mainstream press but for me the games of the Atelier series have been some of the best RPGs of the generation. These forgo the usual RPG story format of a band of warriors saving the world from some all encompassing threat. These games are usually about a young female protagonist trying to get by running an item shop and the help she receives from her friends.

While the game mostly focuses on crafting items to meet deadlines to avoid the shop’s closure many of the items have to be gathered out in the field which is presented as a typical JRPG dungeon and battle system. Earlier games have you working against a time limit to meet deadlines but later entries become more like traditional JRPGs in structure.

While there is a time limit it’s never too harsh to meet the requirements, the real challenge is trying to excel. If you push yourself you can try to craft battle items to get past the game’s optional super bosses or craft more items to meet optional quest targets. The time management in the game feels very like Persona 3 or 4 so fans of those games should check them out. The narrative is usually quite strong, focusing on the protagonist and how they grow from a naive teenager to an experienced and independent adult over the course of 3 years.

For newcomers to the series I’d recommend starting with Atelier Ayesha. It’s the first of the Dusk trilogy so a great place to start and I feel it’s one of the strongest entries to the series. The story about Ayesha looking for her missing sister is quite the emotional journey. 6 Atelier games are available on the PS3 and are either available on PS Vita or in the process of being ported to the system. They make excellent handheld experiences due to how the 3 years of each game takes place over is broken up into 3 month chunks making the game great to play in short bursts. Lastly the soundtracks to these games are some of the best ever, just gorgeous.

Try: If you like Persona or Recettear. No random battles

Avoid: Although the time limit isn’t harsh it might throw off some people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WniZFEhZOXQ

Lightning Returns: FF13-3

Yeah I know FFXIII was a train wreck but the sequels are a different story. Hear me out! Both sequels were developed by Tri-Ace who specialise in RPGs with experimental battle systems and not Square. While FFXIII-2 was good, FFXIII-3 is excellent. They know the story is utter nonsense so it takes a back seat and the developers just have fun with it. The action orientated battle system is great and the costume system is a bit like the job system from other final fantasy games. I also really enjoy the open world and time limit, which becomes less of a problem a short way into the game when you gain the ability to manipulate the clock to give yourself more time to complete the game. It’s one of the best and most innovative RPGs to come out in a low time and unfairly got dismissed by a lot of ignorant game journalists that couldn’t get over its association with FFXIII.

Try: You love experimental RPGs and Tri-Ace games. No random battles

Avoid: You are still butthurt over FFXIII. Time limits stress you out.

Resonance of Fate

Another Tri-Ace game, this time sent out to die by Sega by being released the same time as FFXIII. The game wasn’t helped by having an extremely complicated battle system and a tutorial that taught you the wrong way to play the game. It takes a significant investment to learn how to play this game but once you do it’s worth it. The basics of the combat are making you characters cross paths as they move granting you combat bonuses and the ability to juggle your opponents. What this means is that once you get the hang of it your characters will be juggling enemies in the air while performing acrobatics that would make Neo from the Matrix say ‘Wow’. Of course that is if you can figure it out. If you want a game with an engrossing battle system then you can do no better even if the story is pretty weak. It also features Nolan North not typecast as Nathan Drake and putting in a fine performance. Resonance of Fate is available for a steal on both PS3 and Xbox 360.

Try: If you have a thing for Tri-Ace and their awesome combat systems.

Avoid: you don’t have 10 hours to invest in a game to learn how to play it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMESHFEp2Pc

The World Ends with You

Tetsuya Nomura, the guy Final Fantasy fans love to hate and the guy that can’t seem to finish a project having been booted off FF15 since it had a development time that would make Duke Nukem Forever blush. His more outlandish character designs with their crazy ‘Shibuya teen’ look have been nothing if not controversial so what better game to suit his artistic talents than one about teens in Shibuya. The World Ends with You is one of Square Enix’s more experimental RPGs in recent years. A huge emphasis is placed on fashion and the battle system is bizarre with the action taking place across both DS screens and even uses the DS’s touch screen for some battle commands. It’s hard to explain but each new element of the battle system is introduced gradually so as not to overwhelm the player but it also means it takes a while before the game hits its stride. It’s a crazy mix of weird battle mechanics and quirky Japanese fashion and culture but one that is utterly compelling. The World Ends with You is available on DS (and maybe Android, it was taken down from the iOS App store).

Try: If you want something from Square that’s a little experimental and love Japanese culture

Avoid: If you think Japanese shibuya teens are for ‘weeaboos’

Grandia series

There’s no other way to put this, Grandia has quite simply the finest battle system of any JRPG. It’s so good they never bothered to really change it for each of the 4 main games in the series because they really didn’t need to. The battle system is like any other JRPG with one simple difference, your attacks can slow enemy turns or if timed right, cancel them outright. It means with the correct planning you can get through most battles without even taking a hit and accomplishing this feels amazing. However you have to be careful because the enemy can do the same to you. Outside of the amazing battle system the games are a bit tropey. Grandia 1 feels like a Saturday morning cartoon as you follow the protagonist setting out into the world on a grand adventure. Grandia 2 is the typical God killing plot that a lot of Japanese RPGs use. I much prefer Grandia 1 due to how much charm it has but Grandia 2 is pretty great as well. If there’s one negative, both games kind of drag on a bit longer than they should.

Grandia 1 is available on PSN, make sure you get the superior US version from the US store and not the slowed down PAL release. Grandia 2 is available on Steam.

Try: If you like charming adventures with an amazing combat system. No random battles

Avoid: If you don’t like cliché anime plots.

Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky

Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky doesn’t do anything new, sticking quite closely to the established JRPG formula. However what it does do it excels in it and it’s probably the best example of a traditional JRPG. The series is beloved in Japan due to the strong combat system, excellent writing and lovable characters. Trails in the Sky in particular gets a lot of attention with how it subverts traditional Anime tropes. Characters are excellent throughout especially the dynamic between the hot headed, adventurous Estelle and Joshua who tries in vain to keep her out of trouble.

There is a huge amount of dialogue in the game which can be seen as a good or bad point. To really enjoy the game you should be talking to all NPCs to discover some worthwhile side quests and their dialogue changes regularly as the game progresses. While it means the game world is well fleshed out it can put some people off because it takes a long time for the game to really get going or if you don’t like reading lots of dialogue. However on the other hand the dialogue is excellently written and the main narrative is an emotional and compelling journey that will have you tearing up if you have any sort of heart. It's also by Falcom so expect an incredible soundtrack.

Trails in the Sky is available on Steam and for PSP (playable on Vita). The second chapter was also recently released which finishes the main plot and is available on Steam and PSP (again Vita compatible). A new Legend of Heroes game, Trails of Cold Steel will be launching on PS3 just before Xmas in the states and shortly afterwards in Europe.

Try: If you want to try what is pretty much the finest traditional JRPGs have to offer.

Avoid: if you don’t like lots of dialogue.

Retr0gamer

vBut I prefer to play Western RPGs!

Tactics Ogre

Tactics Ogre belongs to a sub genre of JRPG that combines RPG levelling systems with turn based tactics gameplay. Tactics Ogre is quite possibly the best in this genre. It is regarded by many Japanese gamers as having the finest narrative of any videogame and it’s hard to argue otherwise. The original release had some balancing issues but the PSP remake fixes these and makes it a far better game. Created by Yasumi Matsuno, who liked to base his games around real world conflicts, Tactics Ogre is a medieval retelling of the Balkan War in the 90’s. This is the war that added ‘Ethnic Cleansing’ to our vocabulary so as you can imagine the story goes to some very dark places.

One of the reasons I’ve added this game to this section is the amount of narrative choice the player has over the game. Many of the choices you have to make are morally grey like the best Obsidian game and can be very hard to make, many dealing with the ethnic cleansing of races in the game. The story is long and complex, as three powers battle for control of the nation and foreign super powers intervene. There are multiple paths through the game and multiple endings to explore. The PSP remake adds the ‘wheel of fortune’ allowing you to go back to any major decision points and change your mind of even see how events would pan out differently if you had taken another path. This is all mapped out on a neat time line. This also applies to gameplay, allowing you to turn back any mistakes or try different tactics. This might seem like cheating but it is optional.

I can’t recommend this game enough. The tactical gameplay is challenging but satisfying, the story is superb, with an excellent localisation by localisation legend Alexander O. Smith and there’s just so much content to explore. If you like your fantasy with a bit of political intrigue like the Game of Thrones series well the story in this is pretty much like Game of Thrones except far, far better. It really is quite simply one of the best games ever made. Tactics Ogre is available on PSP and is playable on Vita.

Try: You like narrative role playing and enjoy a good meaty challenge

Avoid: It can be quite tough!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H4YV5Waywo

Final Fantasy Tactics

This is another Yasumi Matsuno game like Tactics Ogre. After the success of Tactics Ogre Squaresoft bought the developer Quest and told them to make a Final Fantasy game in the vein of Tactics Ogre. Final Fantasy Tactics is pretty much just Tactics Ogre but with the excellent job system from Final Fantasy 5. This time the story is based on the War of the Roses which took place after the power vacuum left from the 100 years war. Expect the same kind of political intrigue as Tactics Ogre although I didn’t find the story as compelling in this game. It’s also entirely linear with no narrative choice.

What makes this game stand out is the job system. It allows you to mix and match skills from other jobs and create some crazy and often broken units to use. Just because it’s broken doesn’t mean it’s a bad thing, most FF games are based around systems that encourage the player to experiment and break them and FF Tactics is no different. It’s a very tough game so breaking the system is actively encouraged.

Final Fantasy Tactics is arguably the best entry in the Final Fantasy series with some very challenging (maybe too challenging) gameplay and the excellent job system to play around with. FF Tactics is available on PSP and is playable on Vita.

Try: If you want some challenging strategic combat with political intrigue

Avoid: It really is incredibly tough at times

Persona series

Persona is a spin-off of the Shin Megami Tensei series that will be covered later. I’m going to ignore the first two entries since they are a bit archaic despite being good games and focus on Persona 3 and 4 which for me are the finest RPGs of the last decade.

When you break Persona 3 and 4 into its constituent parts it sounds like the worst kind of game ever. It’s a JRPG about school kids with randomly generated dungeons and dating sim elements. In fact I totally dismissed the series for a long time due to how unappealing it sounds. Don’t make the mistake I nearly made and miss out on these games.

The random dungeons make the combat far more compelling. For one there are no random battles. Every time you enter a dungeon the layout changes and it becomes about making it to the next area of respite before you run out of resources. Enemies in the Shin Megami Tensei series, unlike say Final Fantasy, are deadly so even giving them one round of combat can lead to disaster. As with all Shin Megami Tensei games you collect demons as you fight enemies and can fuse these demons together to create more powerful allies.

While the game features teenage school kids and dating sim elements this isn’t some trope filled anime. The writing is excellent and these school kids act like real school kids with real school kid problems like social acceptance, coping as their parents go through divorce or dealing with being the geeky outcast. It’s all handled in an intelligent manner and it’s mostly about making friends not going on dates. This all feeds back into the combat system. The higher the social link you have with these characters the higher the level of demons you can fuse.

Every system just feeds into each other in a wonderfully consistent and compelling way. There are also a lot of choices you have to make in the game. The main plot is linear but you only have a certain amount of days to use before you reach the conclusion of the plot. You therefore have to balance your time since it’s not possible to finish every social link before the time is up. So do you tackle that dungeon to level up and map progress, study for exams to raise you intellect or go for some food with Mitsuru to get her social link level up.

I can’t state too much how fantastic Persona 3 and 4 are. While I prefer the narrative and characters of Persona 3, Persona 4 might be the better game due to some gameplay refinements. You can’t do wrong with either one though. Persona 3 and 4 are available on PSN as PS2 classics although I’d advise you get the US versions due to a poor PAL conversion that runs much slower. Persona 3 Portable is available on PSP and works on Vita. This cuts out the FES expansion from the PS2 game (which wasn’t great anyway) but also adds the option to play as a female protagonist which is great for veterans wanting to replay the game since it mixes the game up significantly. Persona 4 the Golden is the definitive version of Persona 4 and available on PS Vita and is probably the best reason to own that system.

Try: If you want to play the best RPGs in the last decade

Avoid: If you’ve had a lobotomy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j12-ZUIJpLE

Xenoblade

I’m including Xenoblade here because the battle system is very much like a MMO. You walk around enormous open levels and can see all the enemies walking around as well (including late game high level ones!). Combat is real time with your characters attacking automatically and it uses the same cool down system that MMO games use. If you are looking for a JRPG with a very western style combat system then you can’t do any better than Xenoblade.

The narrative is fairly linear but it’s a good one. It’s a very satisfying sci-fi tale and it has a surprising amount of maturity, especially in how it deals with the relationships between characters. It’s one of the best RPGs I’ve played but there is one problem, it’s ridiculously long. I completed it with 120 hours on the clock, and that was without high level end game side quests.
Xenoblade Chronicles is available on the Wii and WiiU as a downloadable game. A spiritual follow up Xenoblade Chronicles X has just been released on WiiU and I’ve heard it’s pretty amazing as well.

Try: You prefer real time combat similar to a MMO or infinity engine games

Avoid: Have you got 120 hours to spare?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7Xc6in86rs

Etrian Odyssey series

Etrian Odyssey is pretty much Wizardry brought up to modern standards. It’s the game that made me fall in love with dungeon crawling. Wizardry might be dead in the West but there are still Wizardry games being released in Japan as well as Wizardry style games.

Etrian Odyssey is pure old school dungeon crawling but with some twists. The first is you have to map out the dungeon yourself using the touch screen. The bottom DS/3DS screen is pretty much virtual graph paper where you draw out your map and add annotations about any treasure, pitfalls, teleporters or other hazards. Your survival really depends on how well you have made your maps. This might sound like a nuisance but it’s the series best feature. It makes you far more invested in the journey and gives you a visual sense of progress through the labyrinthine floors.

The second are FOEs. FOEs are high level enemies that roam the dungeons. While most battles are random battles FOEs can be seen by the player and roam around the map taking one step for each step the player takes. They also take one step for each turn of combat meaning if you don’t finish off a battle in time a FOE can join in the battle and can quickly finish off the players party. These FOEs are used in very interesting ways, some patrol the dungeon making it feel like metal gear while others will make a beeline for your party. Some bosses have a retinue of FOE enemies that must be cleared out or else you could end up in a boss battle being joined by multiple FOE enemies. The game constantly surprises you in the use of these enemies. FOEs even ended up the subject of a cute Japanese flash animation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB_PVPyn6n8

Being a dungeon crawler Etrian Odyssey games have a very different dynamic to other RPGs. You enter the dungeon, explore it until resources get low and then make a bee line out of there hoping to reach the exit (or remember to buy warp wire to teleport you back to town! Always have two in case you forget!). Each incursion into the labyrinth reveals more of the map and as you level up you start to make more progress. To give the game an old school atmosphere Yuzo Koshiro (of streets of rage fame) composed the soundtrack to the games and for the original 3 games he even composed it using the same sound chip as the megadrive.

Multiple Etrian Odyssey games are available on the DS and 3DS and you can’t really go wrong with any of them. Etrian Odyssey 1 and 2 have been remade for 3DS and go under the ‘Untold’ banner. These include the original games and remixed versions that have a fixed party and add a trope ridden anime storyline. I’d say play the original versions, the story adds nothing and most of the fun is in rolling and building up your own party.

Try: You love dungeon crawling or want to play a Wizardry game, except one that is far better than any Wizardry

Avoid: Losing half an hour of progress to a nasty FOE encounter you weren’t expecting would infuriate you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC5YzZ394bg

Shin Megami Tensei

While other JRPGs have taken the Dragon Quest formula and rolled with it, Shin Megami Tensei has stuck to the Wizardry formula and mutated from there. These games are more so dungeon crawlers, in the vein of Etrian Odyssey, than most other JRPGs. Another feature that helps it stand apart is demon recruitment. In many games your party will comprise of demons you have recruited from the battles you fight. These demons can be fused to create new, more powerful demons. Many of the SMT games give the player narrative choices. The games usually feature a battle between chaotic demons and the forces of God and his angels (that’s old Testament god, the one that’s an arrogant uncaring bellend) and you must choose to side with one or the other or choose your own path.

Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne (Lucifer’s Call in Europe) is the game from the series that would get my highest recommendation and is considered by many as the finest RPG ever created. However Nocturne is not for everyone, it’s really for only the most hardcore RPG players. Dungeons are devilishly design and full of traps and puzzles. Unlike your standard Final Fantasy type games normal enemies are well capable of a party wipe if not dealt with quickly. Bosses are a different matter. Quite a bit of planning and preparation is required before taking on many of the bosses in the game, fusing the correct demons with the correct skillset is vital. There is a big emphasis on using status effects and stat buffs/debuffs unlike simpler RPGs. Many a playthrough has been stopped dead in its tracks by the boss Matador who has become infamous that his picture adorns the TV tropes page for ‘Atlus boss’ http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ThatOneBoss/Atlus. Even for a PS2 game it’s got a gorgeous art style that has aged well and wonderfully atmospheric music.

Don’t let the difficulty put you off though, if you are up for a challenge and real hardcore dungeon crawl then there is none better than Nocturne. Other SMT games I’d recommend checking out are Devil Survivor, Digital Devil Saga and Strange Journey, although these can be quite difficult as well.
Nocturne is available from PSN as a PS2 Classic for PS3. Other Shin Megami Tensei games can be found from the NES up to the PS3 and current handhelds and you can usually do no wrong with any of them.

Try: If you are up for a challenge and don’t mind some dungeon crawling.

Avoid: ‘I only play RPGs where I mash the fight command and don’t have to think!’

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-zNF3Ef6PE

Valkyria Chronicles

This game is more turn based strategy but it’s got a few RPG elements and a very anime art style. I’m recommending this game because it plays very similarly to PC classics such as XCom and even more so the Jagged Alliance games. If you liked those games definitely check it out. The game plays exceptionally well with lots of fun strategic battles to take part in that can get quite challenging (as long as you don’t abuse the fact that Scout units are insanely overpowered).

I really enjoyed the story as well. It parallels the conflict during World War 2 and despite a very cartoony approach it deals with some very heavy themes. Themes of loss, death, how the enemy is just like you, weapons of mass destruction and others are explored in very subtle manner. It’s also probably the only videogame that has approached the topic of the Final Solution in a sensitive manner.

Try: If you like turn based strategy games

Avoid: If you really can’t get over those gorgeous anime visuals... what is wrong with you!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnl0QXhK1wA

My main issue with them is so few if any make it to xbox here last or current gen, not in a position to buy into other platforms so I'm stuck with what I have.

Which means it sucks to be me

Shiminay

I have never played or have watched a stream of a JRPG and thought anything except "I would rather stick forks in my eyes than play that" and the rabid fanbase they seem to garner (this thread being the perfect example) baffles me.

Links234

Japanese Role Playing Games are terrible?

Ok, I'll take your word for it Retrogamer. I was eyeballing a few games because on Steam to check out eventually, because I haven't really played much in absolutely years, things like Trails in the Sky and Tales of Zestiria, but now I know to give 'em a miss thanks to this thread. What with them all being terrible. You've done me a great service.

Retr0gamer

Shiminay wrote: »

I have never played or have watched a stream of a JRPG and thought anything except "I would rather stick forks in my eyes than play that" and the rabid fanbase they seem to garner (this thread being the perfect example) baffles me.

Well maybe you should give the better ones a go rather than basing it on the more popular JRPGs that are no means the best.

gizmo

That reminds me, thoughts on this list from Hardcore Gaming 101 founder, Kurt Kalata?

A Japanese RPG Primer: The Essential 20

Robert ninja

Thanks for the reccomendations there. I've only played a couple of JRPGs. Not particulary interested in any style... a good rpg is a good rpg.

Links234

I used to play a few JRPGs back in the PS1 days, Final Fantasy VII & VIII, Breath of Fire 3, but on the whole I have played few and far between. I picked up The Last Remnant in a Steam sale a while back because that was actually a bit of an itch that I wanted to scratch, I tried it and found that I just couldn't get into it, the battle system was just utterly baffling to me. My experience with JRPGs, they had fairly straightforward turn based combat, and I really like that in an RPG, Darkest Dungeon being a great example, one of my favourite games by far this year. The Last Remnant I found downright alienating, it kinda put me off other JRPGs when I see things like battle system, and I kinda want to try it again to see if I can get into it, but it's honestly not high on my to do list at all. I look at some of the titles on Steam, like FFXIII, and I see Lightning Returns has just been released, but I wonder if I did get them, would I find the gameplay just as confusing and frustrating?

I guess there's a question in my rambling, what would you recommend for me, with those concerns in mind?

Sieghardt

It pretty much seems to be a view only held by people who either never play JRPGs or have only ever played Square Enix JRPGs

Links234 wrote: »

I used to play a few JRPGs back in the PS1 days, Final Fantasy VII & VIII, Breath of Fire 3, but on the whole I have played few and far between. I picked up The Last Remnant in a Steam sale a while back because that was actually a bit of an itch that I wanted to scratch, I tried it and found that I just couldn't get into it, the battle system was just utterly baffling to me. My experience with JRPGs, they had fairly straightforward turn based combat, and I really like that in an RPG, Darkest Dungeon being a great example, one of my favourite games by far this year. The Last Remnant I found downright alienating, it kinda put me off other JRPGs when I see things like battle system, and I kinda want to try it again to see if I can get into it, but it's honestly not high on my to do list at all. I look at some of the titles on Steam, like FFXIII, and I see Lightning Returns has just been released, but I wonder if I did get them, would I find the gameplay just as confusing and frustrating?

I guess there's a question in my rambling, what would you recommend for me, with those concerns in mind?

TLR is a game by the SaGa team, their games are always very random number based and tend to give you the least control over what actually happens. I think they're just awful because of that

If you're looking for intuitive turn based RPGs I'd recommend Grandia 2 and Trails in the Sky on Steam

sheep?

Cheers for that, it was a great read, and quite thorough! I've played a few of them, and my favourite by far was Persona 4. Can't wait for 5.

My issue with JRPGs has always been the story. Actually to be perfectly honest, my issue with most games is their story. The Japanese RPG however is probably the biggest culprit. Clichés and tropes run amok most of the time, both in dialogue and character arcs. This is all my own opinion of course. I might be wrong to compare interactive story-telling with more traditional methods.

Retr0gamer

gizmo wrote: »

That reminds me, thoughts on this list from Hardcore Gaming 101 founder, Kurt Kalata?

A Japanese RPG Primer: The Essential 20

I know Kurt and the guy really knows his stuff. That there is a pretty thorough list and even some of the games on there that I don't think are very good, namely xenogears and Chrono Cross, are still well worth a play since they are such interesting failures.

Links234 wrote: »

I used to play a few JRPGs back in the PS1 days, Final Fantasy VII & VIII, Breath of Fire 3, but on the whole I have played few and far between. I picked up The Last Remnant in a Steam sale a while back because that was actually a bit of an itch that I wanted to scratch, I tried it and found that I just couldn't get into it, the battle system was just utterly baffling to me. My experience with JRPGs, they had fairly straightforward turn based combat, and I really like that in an RPG, Darkest Dungeon being a great example, one of my favourite games by far this year. The Last Remnant I found downright alienating, it kinda put me off other JRPGs when I see things like battle system, and I kinda want to try it again to see if I can get into it, but it's honestly not high on my to do list at all. I look at some of the titles on Steam, like FFXIII, and I see Lightning Returns has just been released, but I wonder if I did get them, would I find the gameplay just as confusing and frustrating?

I guess there's a question in my rambling, what would you recommend for me, with those concerns in mind?

Last Remnant is not a good indication of where JRPGs are right now. As said it's made by Akitoshi Kawazu and his Saga team which make crazy convoluted and usually plain crappy RPGs. If you want something more traditional that is available on steam then definitely get yourself Legend of Heroes Trails in the Sky. It's the best you can get on the service. Grandia 2 is also great but it's no where near as good as trails.

As for FF13, the first game isn't any good, the second I enjoyed but I still can't recommend it and while FF13-3 is superb it's a very experimental game so I couldn't recommend it over Trails in the Sky.

sheep? wrote: »

Cheers for that, it was a great read, and quite thorough! I've played a few of them, and my favourite by far was Persona 4. Can't wait for 5.

My issue with JRPGs has always been the story. Actually to be perfectly honest, my issue with most games is their story. The Japanese RPG however is probably the biggest culprit. Clichés and tropes run amok most of the time, both in dialogue and character arcs. This is all my own opinion of course. I might be wrong to compare interactive story-telling with more traditional methods.

It's not just you, I've noticed it myself and not just in videogames but in anime and japanese films. There's an awful lot of pandering to the hardcore crowd and all they want is nothing but tropes. I can ignore tropes if the game is fun or if it's handled well like in the Atelier games. However there's still companies making JRPGs that ignore those tropes and have exceptional writing. The trails in the sky series and anything by Atlus such as Persona or the Megami Tensei games are always a good bet. I've also been surprised by the writing in Xenoblade after the trope fest that the xenoears and Xenosaga games were. Saying that there's been a massive fan backlash against the last Legend of Heroes game in Japan due to it pandering to tropes where the series was always known for its strong female characters and subverting anime tropes.

It's a pity Matsuno isn't as active lately, you can always count on his political medieval storylines to be mature and well written and Alrxander O. Smith is always doing the localizations.

Is it fair to say JRPG need to move on ? Or is that even possible ?

Retr0gamer

Deleted User wrote: »

Is it fair to say JRPG need to move on ? Or is that even possible ?

Definitely not. It's such a diverse genre that it doesn't need to move on. Even Final Fantasy that people moan is pretty much defined by the fact that it moves on with each entry being radically different from the last. Ff13 was a disaster but 13-3 was experimental and just a superb game and FF15 seems to be taking in lessons from western RPGs with its MMO like combat and open world. Xenoblade would be another example of this.

The last 10 years have probably been the best for the genre in terms of the output of quality titles and we are getting more and more localised into English (although that means a lot of terrible ones are localised as well). The problem is all people can see in The failure of FF13 as if Final Fantasy is the only JRPG in town and the press ignoring nearly everything else hasn't helped much either.

johnny_ultimate

I count a couple of JRPGs among my all time favourite games, especially the Persona series. I still prefer the turn based combat of a good SRPG or indeed standard JRPG to most of the predominant types seen in western RPGs (I do admit a lot of the hybrid systems and experiments from Japan in recent years have left me a bit cold). That said, as a genre I do think there's a few problems afflicting almost all JRPGs, with obviously a handful of exceptions in each category.

More of them need to learn the art of brevity. This is a problem increasingly afflicting Western games too (especially with 2015 effectively being the unofficial year of the open world game), but it's a long-time issue with JRPG. The intense time commitment demanded by all but a few JRPGs makes it off putting, and breeds bad design. I bowed out in the second half of Bravely Default - a game I otherwise thoroughly enjoyed - because of its shameless padding. I enjoyed Persona Q a lot overall, but being perfectly frank I didn't need to fight the same enemies as many tens of times as I did - the game could be a good half or third of the length without losing anything substantial. Xenoblade really is an insanely arduous undertaking at times, even with some of its time-saving concessions. Some games benefit from their various systems being given plenty of scope to breathe - Persona being a great example, although even they have stretches of fairly repetitive dungeon crawling. Some, like Disgaea, even successfully make an entire game of 'the grind'. But truth be told many don't justify their running time by meaningfully expanding on, evolving or subverting their gameplay or narratives at a rate that justifies the extended lengths. Some do, but really if you're asking me to commit so much time I don't think fighting the same old monsters for a half dozen hours is a good reason to do so.

I loved South Park: The Stick of Truth. Not because of its crude humour, fairly basic combat mechanics or any of that. It was because it knew the benefit of keeping things lean and focused and filler-free. The game hits every single base most RPGs do in a fraction of the running time, and everything feels like it flows substantially better as a result. It's a game JRPG designers could learn a lot from, TBH.

Narrative, in general, is another central issue. Japanese developers need to experiment more with storytelling form. Sure, there are good stories, unique tones and memorable atmospheres present in plenty of JRPGs, but there are common tropes that are sadly all too common. A heavy reliance on insane levels of dialogue and exposition is common throughout the genre (which as far as I'm concerned is a fundamentally limited way of storytelling), severely disrupting the pacing and potentially drowning out the 'good stuff' in the process - a good story can be significantly undermined when haphazardly spread over dozens of hours. The predominance of anime clichés and character types remains a significant concern, even in otherwise reasonably endearing yarns. When Western developers - independent and indeed otherwise - are constantly pushing the language of interactive storytelling in new directions, the old JRPG tools can't help but seem increasingly antiquated in many respects.

And finally, there's the aesthetics. It's incredibly boring seeing the same broad schools of character and art design so prevalent throughout the genre - and, in fact, Japanese games as a whole (of course, similar complaints could be made about many Western genres). Sure, there's plenty of potential for impressive things within the general anime 'look', but it's a shame more games don't experiment more ambitiously with their art. What I've always liked about the new Persona games is that, despite their fairly standard anime character design, the game has such a unique, stand-out visual signature. Ditto something like Valkyria Chronicles. But yeah: ditching the wide-eyed anime character designs seems a step beyond even those games :pac:

TheDoc

Shiminay wrote: »

I have never played or have watched a stream of a JRPG and thought anything except "I would rather stick forks in my eyes than play that" and the rabid fanbase they seem to garner (this thread being the perfect example) baffles me.

I'd be the same, very much struggling to keep myself entertained or interested. Final Fantasy really wasn't a big deal to me and I put them down after a few hours gameplay.

The character design, typically OTT scaled weapons, at times terrible dialogue and in a lot of ones I've tried "cutsey" "cuddly" ****, really wasn't my cup of tea at all.

Always open to re-exploring stuff or trying new things, but JRPG's are something I'm never in a rush to give a go

I tried to play a few JRPG and found them really boring and not my cup of tea in the slightest. There's absolutely nothing ignorant about saying that you dislike them and saying they're terrible.

Digital Solitude

Have you a recommended console for your JRPGs Retr0 A JRPG heavy console that isn't a PS Vita in general I mean

TWEWY is the only one from the list I've played, but damn if I didn't fall in love

Retr0gamer

As I said, Vita and 3DS would be the best. PS4 is looking like it might be a good JRPG consoles but I'd actually go for a PC over it which is getting a lot of JRPG content on it since Japan finally realised it exists.

The biggest complaint I hear is, "I don't like turn based combat". All your games fall into that category. What can you say to someone who has no time for turn-based RPG's.

ionapaul

TheDoc wrote: »

I'd be the same, very much struggling to keep myself entertained or interested. Final Fantasy really wasn't a big deal to me and I put them down after a few hours gameplay.

The character design, typically OTT scaled weapons, at times terrible dialogue and in a lot of ones I've tried "cutsey" "cuddly" ****, really wasn't my cup of tea at all.

Always open to re-exploring stuff or trying new things, but JRPG's are something I'm never in a rush to give a go

Something that would put me off many JRPGs (and I'm sure I'm not alone) is the art design to be seen in a lot of them; the massive-eyed, anime style that makes almost all characters look like children. I can't help but feel that it's a bit creepy somehow (particularly if any of the 'childlike' characters are sexualised), and I instinctively react in a negative way towards any game relying on this type of design, regardless of the amazing gameplay or story!

I've never played a Xenoblade game, and really like the sound of the new one out on the Wii U, BUT spotted some of the anime-influenced character design in the trailer and it's again put me off somewhat

Shiminay

I have softened my stance on turn based combat as I've gotten older and now have more hours on games like Civ and XCom on my Steam account than most others.

All that said, I struggled through South Park: Stick of Truth (ok, not a JRPG, but I'm sure a lot of you will agree that there are a great deal of mechanical similarities) and the combat was an absolute killer for me, I found it so tedious and frustrating and it killed the pace of the story.

Retr0gamer

Shiminay wrote: »

I have softened my stance on turn based combat as I've gotten older and now have more hours on games like Civ and XCom on my Steam account than most others.

All that said, I struggled through South Park: Stick of Truth (ok, not a JRPG, but I'm sure a lot of you will agree that there are a great deal of mechanical similarities) and the combat was an absolute killer for me, I found it so tedious and frustrating and it killed the pace of the story.

I actually wasn't a big fan of Stick of Truths combat and the slow pace is mainly what made me forget about it and ultimately not finish it.

I actually agree with your point about slow combat dragging down the pace of a game and it is a probably with many JRPG games, Final Fantasy games in particular. The combat there is drawn out by the ATB system which means you have to wait before you can attack and combat lasts for multiple rounds of combat. Couple that with the games need to show off flash attack and spell animations and you get a battle system that gets totally bogged down despite the battle system being no deeper than mashing attack or using the highest level spells and healing.

It's why I much prefer the games by Atlus which would include Persona, Shin Megami Tensei and Etrian Odyssey. In those games battles are meant to last one or two rounds. Enemies are so dangerous in those games that you have to take them out quickly. It you can't kill them quickly or they get the first round you are usually in trouble and need to really strategize to get out of that situation or make sure you don't end up in that situation in the first place. Then you have the added strategy of balancing resources to explore.

It's probably no surprise that those game's roots come from Wizardry (and a small bit of Ultima in the case of Shin Megmai Tensei games since there is some player choice over the narrative) rather than being based on the Dragon Quest/Final Fantasy model. If there were two to recommend to you it would be Persona and Shin Megami Tensei which have super fast combat and very mature writing and subject matter but I think I'm right in saying you are a PC gamer and unfortunately Atlus hasn't brought them to that platform. Who knows maybe in the future we will see them and maybe a port of Persona 5 when it comes out.

ShiverinEskimo

This thread stinks a bit of toys out of the pram because lots of people don't like what the OP likes.

You basically listed everything that has caused JRPGs to fade out of the limelight in your original post and then went on to put sly digs into fans of WRPGs throughout your list of recommendations.

JRPGs have not modernised as quickly as other major genres and are still plagued by cliché, emo-kids and love-it-or-loathe-it animation styles in most cases. That's before you go into over-complicated plot lines, under-complicated characters and fussy combat systems that end up boiling the games down to a grinding expedition.

The world has moved on and JRPG studios have by-and-large failed to keep up and innovate/progress their genre enough to remain relevant. The fact Sony have gone to the lengths to recreate FFVII stinks of one final hail-mary effort to cash in but it will inevitably end up a mess, guaranteed and will be another nail in the coffin.

You're a bit emotional like the JRPG characters you love so much, fair enough. But people aren't 'stupid' or 'stupider' for thinking JPRGs have had their finest hour, they just don't like the things you love anymore. Boo hoo.

Retr0gamer

Eh I said no such thing about Western RPGs. I really enjoy Western RPGs myself particularly anything from Obsidian or CD Projekt. I recognise there's a big difference between western RPGs and traditional JRPGs which is why I picked out more obscure ones that stick closer to western RPG conventions.

Anyway your own views on JRPGs are what I was trying to address. You say that JRPGs haven't modernised and and other problems you list. However that view is just completely wrong unless you are looking at the microcosm of Final Fantasy (and even then FF13-3 and FF15 have been inventive and taken on lots of ideas from western games). There are quite a few pandering JRPGs that have the questionable cliche material you mention but there's also so much more that don't follow those cliches. As for JRPGs being unable to modernise you just have to look at games like Dark Souls, Persona, Shin Megami Tensei 4 or Xenoblade. Many of those are taking lessons from western RPG design or modernising old Japanese or western RPG gameplay.

I never called anyone stupid for preferring western or Japanese RPGs, I think it's very ignorant to dismiss both totally because there's such diversity within both western and Japanese RPGs that there's something there for everyone. Try not to put words in my mouth like that again.

Links234

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Last Remnant is not a good indication of where JRPGs are right now. As said it's made by Akitoshi Kawazu and his Saga team which make crazy convoluted and usually plain crappy RPGs. If you want something more traditional that is available on steam then definitely get yourself Legend of Heroes Trails in the Sky. It's the best you can get on the service. Grandia 2 is also great but it's no where near as good as trails.

As for FF13, the first game isn't any good, the second I enjoyed but I still can't recommend it and while FF13-3 is superb it's a very experimental game so I couldn't recommend it over Trails in the Sky.

You know, I actually want to play the FFXIII games, kinda hoping they're in the Square Enix Christmas Mystery Box.

Edit: Meant XIII

Retr0gamer

Links234 wrote: »

You know, I actually want to play the FFXIII games, kinda hoping they're in the Square Enix Christmas Mystery Box.

Edit: Meant XIII

Trust me, you don't want to play FF13.

Just jump into 13-3. The story is absolute balls so doesn't matter if you aren't clued in. Even by FF13-2 I don't think even the developers cared about it.

I did enjoy FF13, the battle system is excellent and loved the soundtrack but it's such a badly paced game that it's only playable in 1-2 hour bursts. It's an absolute chore otherwise until you get to Pulse and even then it goes back to drudgery afterwards.

ThePaddygamer

JRPGs aren't that bad, there just...weird?

K.O.Kiki

If anyone wants a good mix of Western RPG cliche & Japanese gameplay style, Dragon's Dogma is coming to PC in January 2016.

o1s1n

No mention of Phantasy Star IV or PDS? I are disappoint. :pac:

Apart from the Fallout series I never really majorly got into any WRPGs at all. Just find them bland in comparison to JRPGs. The ones I have tried fall too much into genre stereotypes. 'This is a fantasy game, there be dragons and wizards, this is a sci fi game, there be spaceships and lasers yadda yadda'.

Each to their own I guess!

sheep?

'This is a JRPG, here be phallic swords, emotionally distraught teenagers, incoherent stories and a universal decree on the amount of hair gel one should liberally apply every morning'. :pac:

o1s1n

sheep? wrote: »

'This is a JRPG, here be phallic swords, emotionally distraught teenagers, incoherent stories and a universal decree on the amount of hair gel one should liberally apply every morning'. :pac:

Still more interesting than Lord of the Rings 2.0

Retr0gamer

o1s1n wrote: »

No mention of Phantasy Star IV or PDS? I are disappoint. :pac:

Apart from the Fallout series I never really majorly got into any WRPGs at all. Just find them bland in comparison to JRPGs. The ones I have tried fall too much into genre stereotypes. 'This is a fantasy game, there be dragons and wizards, this is a sci fi game, there be spaceships and lasers yadda yadda'.

Each to their own I guess!

I was picking ones that are easy to get hold of now but Phantasy Star and Panzer Dragoon Saga would be well up there as my favourites.

I find a lot of western RPGs are also very much bland and trope ridden just like JRPGs but again there's also a lot that fall outside the usual Lord of the rings retelling. Even when Bioware did sci-fi with Mass Effect they couldn't help but tell the same fantasy story they always tell with a sci Fi skin over it. Still if there's enough good narrative choice then the tropey story doesn't bother me but I find Bioware really fall down there as well.

penev10

Deleted User wrote: »

The biggest complaint I hear is, "I don't like turn based combat". All your games fall into that category. What can you say to someone who has no time for turn-based RPG's.

Play Dark Souls or if you don't fancy a challenge then Dragons Dogma. If you have to have guns then Mass Effect is decent enough or better still try Fallout.

penev10

penev10 wrote: »

Play Dark Souls or if you don't fancy a challenge then Dragons Dogma. If you have to have guns then Mass Effect is decent enough or better still try Fallout.

Are any of those JRPG's?

penev10

Deleted User wrote: »

Are any of those JRPG's?

Thought you were looking for non turn-based RPGs?

I suppose the ones quoted are more western RPGs but the definitions aren't exactly set in stone.

Retr0gamer

Deleted User wrote: »

The biggest complaint I hear is, "I don't like turn based combat". All your games fall into that category. What can you say to someone who has no time for turn-based RPG's.

Turn based combat is far better than any real time game... If you are playing the right games. If you are basing this on just Final Fantasy then you need to try something like Nocturne, Grandia or Persona which have except strategic and fast paced turn based combat. If you liked XCom then try Tactics Ogre or Valkyria Chronicles. Final Fantasy has pretty poor turn based combat were you win most fights mashing X.

There's also the Xenoblade games which are real time with MMO type battle systems.

penev10

penev10 wrote: »

Thought you were looking for non turn-based RPGs?

I suppose the ones quoted are more western RPGs but the definitions aren't exactly set in stone.

My favourite game of all time is that list, Chrono Trigger. I was just stating what I hear my friends often say when any JRPG comes up.

Retr0gamer

Sorry should have read it correctly.

penev10

Deleted User wrote: »

My favourite game of all time is that list, Chrono Trigger. I was just stating what I hear my friends often say when any JRPG comes up.

I read it wrong too!

I suppose if they don't like turn-based combat then they don't like turn-based combat. If their only exposure has been to FF then they're not giving it a fair crack of the whip and should try some better examples of which there are many.

Oh and a JRPG with real time combat just popped into my head - Nier! Real rough diamond that one.

Retr0gamer

A lot of people I hear I don't like turn based combat in JRPGs love the crap out of the new XCom where the dev team said some of the biggest influence for the game came from JRPGs like Tactics Ogre, FF Tactics and Valkyria Chronicles.

Nier is indeed fantastic but it's more action game for me closer to Zelda, there's very little RPG elements.

I think part of what defines the genre is the combat systems. JRPGs are not just RPGs that come from Japan.

Like Dragons dogma, and dark souls are RPG's and they come from Japan but no one would ever call them JRPG's

Retr0gamer

Deleted User wrote: »

I think part of what defines the genre is the combat systems. JRPGs are not just RPGs that come from Japan.

Like Dragons dogma, and dark souls are RPG's and they come from Japan but no one would ever call them JRPG's

Plenty of JRPGs have real time combat systems though. Look at most of the Tri-Ace games, they specialise in real-time, The Mana games before they got **** and MMO type stuff like FF12 or Xenoblade. I'd definitely classify them as JRPGs.

K.O.Kiki

sheep? wrote: »

'This is a JRPG, here be phallic swords, emotionally distraught teenagers, incoherent stories and a universal decree on the amount of hair gel one should liberally apply every morning'. :pac:

Penn

Have watched some gameplay videos of some of the games mentioned in the first few posts.

Did nothing but confirm what I already thought; I dislike the style of the games, the style of the characters, the presentation of story, and the gameplay. I'm sure if you invest enough time in them, you enjoy them more and gain an appreciation for them, but the same can be said for almost any genre and I'd much rather spend that time on games I know I'll have a much better chance of enjoying.

Links234

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Trust me, you don't want to play FF13.

Well tough, I just snagged myself a copy.

Wow what a thread. Will read it at my leisure.

kunst nugget

Links234 wrote: »

Well tough, I just snagged myself a copy.

I picked up a copy of Final Fantasy XIII-2 for a euro in Tesco about a year or so ago and I put it on at the weekend in honour of this thread as it's the only JRPG I own on the PS3 besides retrogamer's favourite, Ni no kuni. I fell asleep during the opening sequence…

Mr.Saturn

It depends on how narrow one's definition of JRPG happens to be. Whilst one can arrive at the letters 'JRPG' and have a litany of preconceptions as to what that exactly entails, even though it's not really defined beyond it: a) being an RPG, predominantly turn-based and being made in Japan (the insight, lads). There are examples like the Mother series, Super Mario RPG/Mario & Luigi/Paper Mario and even Pokemon demonstrate how it's a genre ripe for fun-times.

super_furry

It's weird but I actually find JRPGs better suited to handhelds these days. Currently playing through Trails in the Sky and couldn't imagine playing it on a big screen and I honestly can't articulate why. Maybe because for that game in particular the smaller screen is more forgiving for the graphics.

One thing I do know that I'm not keen on is the lack of open worlds. I know it's a design choice but it feels that Western RPGs have moved forward with bigger worlds that you're free to explore, get lost in and discover things like Skyrim and the Witcher. JRPGs by contrast seem to be a much more linear and tailored experience, bringing you from A to B to C with no room for deviation.