Most important element of racing well (Aside from training)

Myles Splitz

Sorry I know this is a little vague but I thought it might be an interesting topic so I don't want to elaborate too much but looking to see what people think are the most important elements and characteristics to performing well on race day aside from just putting in the work.

Ability to dig deep? handle surges? maintain a particular effort?

Also what do people do to train themselves for this.

tang1

Good coach!!

I'll never be at the pointy end of a race so don't have to worry about people surging past me. Training to maintain a particular effort throughout a race would be my main objective when it comes to racing.

ger664

Be able to chill and relax before and early in a race. Sonia had an article going around last week that pretty much hit the nail on the head about where she was when she won both XC World Championships.

The first big test came for me in 1998 at the World Cross Country, in Morocco. I had a diary full of training completed. I was very fit and ready to race. I knew there was no more I could do than just run relaxed, and controlled, until the point where I could take off and ensure victory.
I never really thought about winning the race, just getting myself to the point in the race where victory was an option. Then came the point in every race when instinct must take over: when that point came, I was able to win with such ease that I actually surprised myself.

Full Article

pconn062

The ability to suffer.

Myles Splitz

tang1 wrote: »

Good coach!!

I'll never be at the pointy end of a race so don't have to worry about people surging past me. Training to maintain a particular effort throughout a race would be my main objective when it comes to raving.

I wonder can surging be helpful in order to get back on pace when you start to hurt and paces start to drop though or fluctuating intensity on tougher courses. Just musing here about how different elements often overlooked may help all us mid packers as well as the ones vying for podiums.

pconn062 wrote: »

The ability to suffer.

Definitely one which is usually mentioned. Can it be replicated in training or is it just something you either have or not?

I have seen some training sessions like the Scott Simmons "Hammers" or reps where they are run hard at start and end but moderate in between in order to replicate race scenario's (Say a km rep in 3.30 where first and last 200 are run in 39s with the middle run at 44s pace)

Myles Splitz

ger664 wrote: »

Be able to chill and relax before and early in a race. Sonia had an article going around last week that pretty much hit the nail on the head about where she was when she won both XC World Championships.



Full Article

It's an interesting one. I have gone into races feeling invincible and that I could do no wrong and things clicked on the day and I reckon I ran above and beyond what I thought I was capable of, others I have gone in confidence and ended up being too aggressive and it costing me places or seconds.

It's a fine line I think between being too relaxed or too wound up.

KielyUnusual

Its a good question and I think you can probably break it up in to the different types of races, which are approached very differently.

Marathon

Its a long race so pacing is integral. I always broke it up into 3 segments

0-5 Miles - Keep very comfortable and run slower than race pace
5-20 Miles - Get up to race pace and ideally find a group to run with. Its a long segment so try and not think too far away. Can be hard to motivate yourself if you are finding it tough and there are still 15-20 miles to go. Accept that there will be peaks and troughs effort wise. One of the big things is keeping the pace when times are tough. More often than not you will come through on the other side but if you slow down then it is neigh on impossible to pick it back up
20-26.2 - Just concentrate on keeping the same turnover and drive relentlessly to the end. If you are keeping pace, then you will be passing people and this is a great motivator.

5 Mile to Half Marathon

All about finding a good group that you can barely hang on to and hanging on in there. All my good races at these distances have been where I've found a group that I thought was just about right for my level and then moving on to the next group . If you get isolated and between groups in a race like this then hard to run well

3K-5K

Group running again is big. You really have to run at a stupid effort level to get a good time in a 3K/5K. If by one third in, you're not questioning why you are there and putting yourself through this hell then you are not trying hard enough :P

8-1500

Concentration is key in the middle distance events. If you lose concentration for a second or two then you can drift off the back easily and its hard to catch back up. Its good to go out hard so you're not getting boxed in or having to run in lane three. If you're running for time then lap two and three are critically. Just staying with the group is more often than not just not good enough. You really have to push on here to maintain pace. A 6-7 second gap between lap times on what seems like a similar effort can so easily happen. The last lap takes care of itself but its the middle laps that really dictate the time you are going to get

XC

Cross country is all about relentlessly driving on. The good races are the ones where you're able to just keep pushing, pushing, pushing, every runner on the course is your bitter enemy and you don't think about the laps, just the places that you can make before the finish line. Running lots of races is important because the first one or two can be a shock to the system and you need to get used to the type of heavy legs that only come with running in the mud. Getting to know your competitors is useful (the ones inside you club too ) because there's nothing like a good rivalry to push you that little bit harder.

Itziger

pconn062 wrote: »

The ability to suffer.

Even though we all know this is important, I still think it's under-rated. I'd love to read an in-depth study on a number of runners, some of whom could 'suffer' a lot and others who just seem to call it quits too early. I honestly don't know where I am on a 1-100 scale.

There is also the question of motivation/desire tied up with this. Sometimes when I look at people finishing races, I'm amused that the faster ones are all dried spit and grimaces while the slower runners tend to be smiling and waving at the crowd.

Myles Splitz

Itziger wrote: »

Even though we all know this is important, I still think it's under-rated. I'd love to read an in-depth study on a number of runners, some of whom could 'suffer' a lot and others who just seem to call it quits too early. I honestly don't know where I am on a 1-100 scale.

There is also the question of motivation/desire tied up with this. Sometimes when I look at people finishing races, I'm amused that the faster ones are all dried spit and grimaces while the slower runners tend to be smiling and waving at the crowd.

I think that this is definitely an important thing to consider. I know myself that despite wanting to and really trying hard in races that there are some races for what ever reason I am not able to access that last few percent of effort.

I have ran 3 races this month yet for what ever reason despite good runs in the first two I finished asking myself was it really all I had to give (probably was on the day but I didn't have the dry wretching coming down the finish kicking hard feeling)

sideswipe

pconn062 wrote: »

The ability to suffer.

The ability not to suffer.

Dealing with and accepting pain and discomfort as a sign that you are working hard enough. I find I only suffer when I'm mentally weak and start focusing on the pain in a negative way. Thats the difference between pain and suffering

KielyUnusual

ger664 wrote: »

Be able to chill and relax before and early in a race. Sonia had an article going around last week that pretty much hit the nail on the head about where she was when she won both XC World Championships.



Full Article

That's a really good article, excellently written. Just when I thought I couldn't be more impressed with Sonia.

KielyUnusual

KielyUnusual wrote: »

That's a really good article, excellently written. Just when I thought I couldn't be more impressed with Sonia.

Looks like it might be a weekly column in the Irish Times. Excellent.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/sonia-o-sullivan-variety-can-spice-up-your-training-regime-1.2451986

pconn062

sideswipe wrote: »

The ability not to suffer.

Dealing with and accepting pain and discomfort as a sign that you are working hard enough. I find I only suffer when I'm mentally weak and start focusing on the pain in a negative way. Thats the difference between pain and suffering

To me the ability to suffer means to be able to maintain your concentration, pace, position, etc despite every fiber in your body telling you to stop, slow down, give up etc. It is very much a mental as well as a physical thing, and the mental side of racing is something that needs more emphasis than we often give it. I agree with KU's analysis above regarding different distances requiring particular skills, especially regarding XC and middle distance. To me, XC requires the greatest ability to suffer through burning lungs and tired legs.

sideswipe

pconn062 wrote: »

To me the ability to suffer means to be able to maintain your concentration, pace, position, etc despite every fiber in your body telling you to stop, slow down, give up etc. It is very much a mental as well as a physical thing, and the mental side of racing is something that needs more emphasis than we often give it. I agree with KU's analysis above regarding different distances requiring particular skills, especially regarding XC and middle distance. To me, XC requires the greatest ability to suffer through burning lungs and tired legs.

Couldn't agree more. I have always been a mentally weak runner, I've always struggled when the going got tough.
My point about there being a difference between pain and suffering comes from a book recommendation I got on here- Brain Training For Runners.
Decent enough read and helped me become more focused while racing.

menoscemo

Itziger wrote: »

Even though we all know this is important, I still think it's under-rated. I'd love to read an in-depth study on a number of runners, some of whom could 'suffer' a lot and others who just seem to call it quits too early. I honestly don't know where I am on a 1-100 scale.

There is also the question of motivation/desire tied up with this. Sometimes when I look at people finishing races, I'm amused that the faster ones are all dried spit and grimaces while the slower runners tend to be smiling and waving at the crowd.

I often RD at Cabinteely parkrun and with the start/finish line at the top of a hill on a 3 lap course we get to see all the runners 3 times. It is noticeable that while the lead runners appear to be much more comfortable when peaking the hill mid run, at the end they are almost always buckled over. They generally take 1-2 minutes of 'recovery' just to be able to go over and get scanned. Conversely other runners who appeared to be suffering mid run generally can get their token and get scanned immediately.

I definitely think that one of the most important elements of racing is to race frequently. Especially so for beginners as it takes a lot of racing just to realise where your limits are. I think a lot of the reason why I set a lot of PBs in my first few years running was not so much because I got fitter but also because I learned how to suffer better.

Chivito550

The ability to be competitive.

I don't mean winning medals. I mean entering a race and being competitive amongst those around your level. Not just running for a time, or to finish a distance, but to try beat the person in your running group, the few people around your level in the Boards Novice Thread, making sure to hold off somebody who on paper was a bit slower than you, that kind of thing. Too often in mass participation events, we just see 5000+ runners doing their own thing. Why not make the race an actual race too, and not have the clock as the only important measure of a performance. You should want to beat somebody you know running around your level. That's what makes it a race. So get out and race the people in your race.

Also, racing a race is also something people need to do more of. How many times do we hear people say "I'll do xxxx race", "at a tempo pace", "at PMP pace", "I won't be "racing" it though" etc. It's so easy to do this, and to me it's just wussing out of races IMO. So many people do it it is quite amazing. Fear of actually putting themselves on the line and not performing well, so instead there's the fall back of "I wasn't racing it anyway". People need to stop with this attitude IMO. The more you actually race, the more you learn. Besides, fairly expensive training run if you don't actually race it.

rom

Chivito550 wrote: »

The ability to be competitive.

I don't mean winning medals. I mean entering a race and being competitive amongst those around your level. Not just running for a time, or to finish a distance, but to try beat the person in your running group, the few people around your level in the Boards Novice Thread, making sure to hold off somebody who on paper was a bit slower than you, that kind of thing. Too often in mass participation events, we just see 5000+ runners doing their own thing. Why not make the race an actual race too, and not have the clock as the only important measure of a performance. You should want to beat somebody you know running around your level. That's what makes it a race. So get out and race the people in your race.

Also, racing a race is also something people need to do more of. How many times do we hear people say "I'll do xxxx race", "at a tempo pace", "at PMP pace", "I won't be "racing" it though" etc. It's so easy to do this, and to me it's just wussing out of races IMO. So many people do it it is quite amazing. Fear of actually putting themselves on the line and not performing well, so instead there's the fall back of "I wasn't racing it anyway". People need to stop with this attitude IMO. The more you actually race, the more you learn. Besides, fairly expensive training run if you don't actually race it.

This is why XC is great as its the only focus. The other year there was 3 teams picked for XC. They put me on the third team. They asked a guy that I think I would beat if he would go on the A team if someone didnt turn up. The guy did turn up. I beat everyone on the 2nd and 3rd team to prove my point but said nothing. Loved that race.

Itziger

rom wrote: »

This is why XC is great as its the only focus. The other year there was 3 teams picked for XC. They put me on the third team. They asked a guy that I think I would beat if he would go on the A team if someone didnt turn up. The guy did turn up. I beat everyone on the 2nd and 3rd team to prove my point but said nothing. Loved that race.

Loving the team spirit Rom!!

No 'I' in team, remember?

Chivito550

Itziger wrote: »

Loving the team spirit Rom!!

No 'I' in team, remember?

but there is an M E

Enduro

Great thread! I've got lots of scattered thoughts on this. I've raced over many sports and distances for a long time now. I've evolved over the years to the point where I've won running races from distance of 3.5km up to 6 days.

Racing is most definitely a skill in itself. I think that as a sport runners in general are pretty good at racing (Mountain bikers and triathletes for example, in comparison might have similar levels of fitness, but can often be less able racers)

Agree entirely with KU... different race distances have very different mental requirements. Even the nature of the pain/suffering varies considerably. Pushing out beyond Marathon into ultras leads to some more extreme examples. There are very few people who can truely race multi-day ultras well. Mostly people survive them. Knowing how to pace any distance/terrain/condtions that you race is key. That's usually a learned skill.

Talent and hard work are obviously the foundation which has to be present to compete well. Drive and ambition are necessary to race well.

Over the long term... the ability to analyse and to learn is hugely important. A lot of athletes can offload this to their coach. But unless your coach knows you really well (in an athletics sense!) then I would think this is unlikely to be optimal, to say the least.

I remember having a very interesting conversation with a former team-mate who was a profesional poker player. I was trying to see if there was any common keys to success. His answer to the key to being a good poker player was "controlled aggression". I think that is probably common to most sports. From a running perspective agression is the more straightforward part. Having the drive and ambition, and an element of ruthlessness. The controlled part is harder to master, and requires more learning and self analysis.

There are so many factors which sum up to being a good racer. Some others which spring to mind:

• Ambition
• Drive
• embracing challenge
• Having a plan for how to race
• Committing absolutely to the plan
• Focus
• Knowing when to change the plan
• Adaptability
• Fearlessness
• Confidence
• Perspective
• Realism
• self-knowledge
• being disruptive
• coping with disruption
• Ruthlessness

A lot of the above list are somewhat contradictory. It's how its all summed together. Even the best athletes don't get everything right all the time.

Enduro

Itziger wrote: »

Loving the team spirit Rom!!

No 'I' in team, remember?

Sacksian

I'll go against the grain here and say that I honestly think the psychological aspects to racing are wildly overestimated, or at least the importance of the ability to "suffer".

I would place much greater importance on maintaining relaxation and control at pace - which is more a function of adequate (+ appropriate) training, for you and the distance - than being able to withstand pain.

If your training paces don't match up to your race paces, then it's much, much more likely that you're doing something wrong in training, not in races - the biggest mistake I see in logs here and in club training is confusing 3k pace with 5k pace and 5k with 10k, etc. The most likely remedy for poor performance is better or more training.

I used to say that I'd never run a good 5k because I wasn't able to suffer (I feel like that about the 3k now) but it turns out that when you train specifically + consistently for a distance, running a pb becomes a bit easier!

Obviously, there's going to be effort in any race, but if you're looking for ways at getting x% more out of yourself, I'd look at your training first. Don't confuse someone else's facial expressions with their effort! It's just a question of style.

Isn't it a bit of a cop-out to think that it's a psychological issue and there's nothing wrong with your training? You can't consistently outrun fitness and ability. Myself and a training partner used to joke about how fast we could run if we could just learn to suffer.

My hardest races, and the ones in which I've suffered most, have been the ones I've been least-prepared for (whether through illness, injury or lack of training) and performed worst and in the few races I've won on the track, primarily at 800 and 1500, I've felt in control and like I had tactical options - presumably because I had confidence in my training.

If you can't hold pace in a 5k, I would say it's because of bad tactics or bad training, not because of your (in)ability to suffer.

<exhale>

pconn062

Sacksian wrote: »

I'll go against the grain here and say that I honestly think the psychological aspects to racing are wildly overestimated, or at least the importance of the ability to "suffer".

I would place much greater importance on maintaining relaxation and control at pace - which is more a function of adequate (+ appropriate) training, for you and the distance - than being able to withstand pain.

If your training paces don't match up to your race paces, then it's much, much more likely that you're doing something wrong in training, not in races - the biggest mistake I see in logs here and in club training is confusing 3k pace with 5k pace and 5k with 10k, etc. The most likely remedy for poor performance is better or more training.

I used to say that I'd never run a good 5k because I wasn't able to suffer (I feel like that about the 3k now) but it turns out that when you train specifically + consistently for a distance, running a pb becomes a bit easier!

Obviously, there's going to be effort in any race, but if you're looking for ways at getting x% more out of yourself, I'd look at your training first. Don't confuse someone else's facial expressions with their effort! It's just a question of style.

Isn't it a bit of a cop-out to think that it's a psychological issue and there's nothing wrong with your training? You can't consistently outrun fitness and ability. Myself and a training partner used to joke about how fast we could run if we could just learn to suffer.

My hardest races, and the ones in which I've suffered most, have been the ones I've been least-prepared for (whether through illness, injury or lack of training) and performed worst and in the few races I've won on the track, primarily at 800 and 1500, I've felt in control and like I had tactical options - presumably because I had confidence in my training.

If you can't hold pace in a 5k, I would say it's because of bad tactics or bad training, not because of your (in)ability to suffer.

<exhale>

I see where you're coming from but I (respectfully!) disagree. When I'm talking about being able to "suffer" (which is a very dramatic word!) I'm talking about well trained runners who have the sufficient training done for the specific event. I agree that no amount of suffering is going to get you a 10k PB if you haven't the required training done for the event!

A good example of what I mean is this. A friend of mine joined our club about two years ago. He came from an elite cycling background, one of Ireland's top national cyclists in the late 80's/90's. He was very fit and took to running like a duck to water. Was amazed me most what his ability to go really hard in cross country races, seemingly going into the red after 2k of a 10k race and then just maintain it, even speeding up towards the end! Now obviously he was fit but in these longer, harder races he was running above his stall. When I asked him about it, he said it was down to cycling. He said in cycling you could be asked to go to the front and really drive the pace, and you could be asked to do this for an hour or even more. He said you could be right on the edge but you had a job to do for the team, so you simply kept going for as long as necessary at a very high effort level. So, by the time he came to running he had this amazing ability to sit in the red without wilting for very long periods of time which meant in his first year of running he came 10th in the senior county XC! Now obviously as I said, he was fit as well but over the road I could stick with him and on short distances on the track I could beat him but on the XC he had a huge mental edge.

And while I'm throwing out stories, here's another! I train a group of fit4life runners and after a few months of running I took them down to do a parkrun as there first race. it was a lapped course so the leaders passed them after about 3k. Afterwards they told me that they could not believe how hard the leaders were working and breathing and that they sounded like they were hyperventilating! However I was following the front of the "race" and the guys never really dropped pace at any stage and picked it up for the last 1k. I tried to explain that these guys and girls were simply used to getting up to a very high effort and then maintaining it (of course they were well trained for the event as well), where as my fit4lifers would have stopped to walk if their breathing sounded the same.

It's always funny when you hear beginner runners saying it must be so easy for the fast guys, yet at any races I am at it's the faster guys who are breathing harder, look more uncomfortable! The beginner runners have yet to learn how to really hurt in a race, and that it's OK to really hurt in race! Like training, it is a skill that must be practiced and learned.

Sacksian

No worries! I'm not trying to convince anyone who thinks the opposite, just putting it out there as an alternative perspective - and I tend to find myself on the contrarian side of a few training debates, so it probably just suits me to think like this!

My take on the cycling guy would be that while might have looked like he was redlining 2k into a 10k race, I'm not sure he would have finished the race if he had been! What I would imagine he had trained from elite cycling is the ability to maintain effort around his threshold. And I'd see that as a physiological, rather than psychological, attribute.

If anything, his performances probably demonstrate the fundamental advantage that a huge aerobic base (however it's acquired) gives you in running. I'm thinking it might be similar to Colin Griffin's marathon debut, where he was able to speed up in the last 10k of an already impressive performance, despite having used a relatively reduced marathon training programme, due to the 10,000s of miles he had put in walking. Over short distances, that aerobic advantage is minimised.

My story is of being lapped twice by John Travers last year at the baseline. I was floundering and panting while he *floated* by (twice!) as if he was on a magic carpet and, seemingly, not suffering on his way to a completely solo 8:07. Imagine what he'd run if he could suffer!!

I just think it's a bit of a sop for people to say that they could run faster times and race better if only they could suffer more. As one of the least well-defined variables in performance and, by extension, least measurable, they'd be better off forgetting about it and concentrating on training that is more controllable. I'm just not convinced of the utility of even thinking about it.

As I said before, if your race times don't match up to your training paces, I'd look to training first.

Again, this is all just my personal take on it. Generally, I race better than I train (I can hold paces in races that I can't in training) and work harder in a race than I do in training so this is what works for me. I don't really relate to the war stories from races, so maybe I'd be running much quicker if I could suffer more too!

demfad

Coming from a hill running and road running perspective I think preparation is very important in races. Analyse and know your form, the runners likely to be around you, their form, know the course inside out, know where the hills are, know exactly how long you'll be running (suffering) up them, know where you'll get relief on the course, know the windy parts, imagine what you will do when the going gets tough, who is best to hang on to if necessary?, where can you pick it up, where can you drop someone, etc etc

Always warmup up on the closing section of the race course, look at the physical characteristics of this closing few k, work out the difficult psychological points of this closing stage, particularly work out where the combination of angst from perceived distance remaining and physical discomfort is at its maximum, pick a physical cue around this area, when you see this plan to dig in...or think that the worst is over...or drop a suffering opponent.

Leaving a lot of these things to be ad-libbed during the race means a lot more opportunity to make mistakes tactically or psychologically.

Sacksian

demfad wrote: »

Coming from a hill running and road running perspective I think preparation is very important in races. Analyse and know your form, the runners likely to be around you, their form, know the course inside out, know where the hills are, know exactly how long you'll be running (suffering) up them, know where you'll get relief on the course, know the windy parts, imagine what you will do when the going gets tough, who is best to hang on to if necessary?, where can you pick it up, where can you drop someone, etc etc

Always warmup up on the closing section of the race course, look at the physical characteristics of this closing few k, work out the difficult psychological points of this closing stage, particularly work out where the combination of angst from perceived distance remaining and physical discomfort is at its maximum, pick a physical cue around this area, when you see this plan to dig in...or think that the worst is over...or drop a suffering opponent.

Leaving a lot of these things to be ad-libbed during the race means a lot more opportunity to make mistakes tactically or psychologically.

I'd strongly agree with this type of preparation for xc too. I always feel more comfortable knowing the course well, what the competition is likely to be, and having a couple of different - but definite - plans in my head beforehand.

For the national novice, I'm going to sprint as hard as I can for the first mile and, once I get out of sight, hide behind a tree until the leaders come around on the 3rd lap.

RayCun

Just my own experience is that I know there have been races where I could have run faster, but backed off instead of pushing on. But it does relate to training as well - if I feel well-trained coming into a race I want to put in the performance my training deserves. If I don't feel sharp I'm more likely to settle.

MacSwifty

Sleep

dna_leri

For me it is: Confidence, Motivation & Experience.

Confidence comes from your training and your preparation, including mental prep. If your training has gone well and you are physically strong, you will know you can push to your limit and won't hold back. Preparation is about the little details, planning your race day, having a plan A,B,C and knowing when to use each.

Motivation is what gives you the drive to push on when you feel the pain, to work to stay with the group, to surge ahead when you feel strong, to kick hard at the finish. Motivation comes from within, desire to PB, to beat the guy who usually finishes in front of you, to win for the team.

Experience from previous races will tell you how hard you can push, whether to negative or positive split, what your limits are and are-not, whether to go out hard and where to position yourself.

When those 3 come together on the back of a solid block of training, you have a chance to PB or Compete or Perform to your best. The only other ingredient is luck but the harder and smarter you work the luckier you get.

ThisRegard

Sacksian wrote: »

Isn't it a bit of a cop-out to think that it's a psychological issue and there's nothing wrong with your training?

I don't think so. You can often talk yourself into having a bad race when you're standing around thinking you're not in the mood for this today, it's going to be a bad run.

HelenAnne

KielyUnusual wrote: »

3K-5K

Group running again is big. You really have to run at a stupid effort level to get a good time in a 3K/5K. If by one third in, you're not questioning why you are there and putting yourself through this hell then you are not trying hard enough :P

.

This is so helpful. Someone (maybe you!) said something v similar about 5k here on boards a few years ago. Very often in a 5k I hit a point where I just want to slow down or stop and I think 'If you don't feel like stopping in a 5k you're not running fast enough', and then, probably because I feel I'm doing something right, I feel better .

One of the main things I've had to work on for races is getting to the start line, once the gun goes off, I usually feel OK, and I seem to run in or around the pace I intended, but I get so nervous beforehand that I've really had to work on both relaxation and distraction to get me to the start on time and in a fit state to run!

Before the Raheny 5 I help with the kids' registration and races and that really takes my mind off being nervous and stops me wasting energy panicking.

Baggirshorts

I like to run to a strategy for each race when possible. I like that side of running....having a plan for the race, for the course and for the conditions. Thats my trinity on race days.....I can chop and change any one of these if I have too.
I usually have mind marks as to where I would like to be at a certain distances in a race. If I am slower, having the confidence to push a bit harder and if faster the discipline to slow down

Race day conditions can usually be very different to that which you have done most of your training in. That can be a shock. Find a bunch of runners if it is windy and exposed.

While I always try to run to my very best ability, some times you just wake up in the morning of a race and know......"Not going to happen today!"
But that's fine too....:)

ger664

ThisRegard wrote: »

I don't think so. You can often talk yourself into having a bad race when you're standing around thinking you're not in the mood for this today, it's going to be a bad run.

100% agree with this. Mentally that was me in Frankfurt this year. Personal work issues didnt leave me in the right frame of mind to run to 100% of my ability. I chickened out at 28K.

yaboya1

A huge amount of racing is mental. Lots of people here put in the same or similar training, but have vastly different results.

hot buttered scones

Planning. How are your going to get there, how long to get there? Where's the parking and how far from the start and registration is is? What's the course like, where are the hills etc? What gear to wear? Depending on the length of the race, what nutrition to take and how to carry it? Get all this sorted well in advance and then you can focus on the race itself, leaving race day free from uneccesary worries. Plan how you'll run, how far back/forward to start, what pace to set off etc. with a back up if things go wrong. Then mental toughness to push through discomfort, and not slow down when your brain is screaming at you that it's had enough. But I think that comes in time from the experience of racing. But for me its mostly planning. I love it when a plan comes together! Similar to what someone else said above, I've felt better about a race where everything went to plan and I ran well than another over the same distance that I ran faster but my plan fell apart towards the end because it wasn't as good a plan (if that make sense).

Ruu

^^Great points, for someone who suffers with anxiety, relaxation and planning, planning and more planning is key otherwise my energy is spent on everyone else around me before the race has even started.

hot buttered scones

Chivito550 wrote:

Also, racing a race is also something people need to do more of. How many times do we hear people say "I'll do xxxx race", "at a tempo pace", "at PMP pace", "I won't be "racing" it though" etc. It's so easy to do this, and to me it's just wussing out of races IMO. So many people do it it is quite amazing. Fear of actually putting themselves on the line and not performing well, so instead there's the fall back of "I wasn't racing it anyway". People need to stop with this attitude IMO. The more you actually race, the more you learn. Besides, fairly expensive training run if you don't actually race it.

I would agree with some of what ypu said there, but wouldn't 100% agree with the main gist of the paragraph. Most of the races I run I'm chasing a PB, or if that's not on the cards, I'm chasing the guy just in front of me, and I give it all I've got. But I have entered races with the specific aim of gaining race practice without putting in 100% effort in order to be more prepared for my goal race. For example I ran Cork to Cobh mostly to get some miles at MP and practice fueling etc. for Dublin. Entering races like this and leaving a bit in the tank can help to build confidence and nail down strategy for a goal race, so your still gaining experience without jeopardising your main aim. Of course I could have just done a 15 mile long run on my own, but you can't learn control under race conditions like that. Or running the Ballyandreen 5 at PMP because it was the week before the Cork marathon and I wanted to run all the Ballycotton summer series races - not too expensive either at only €5. But yeah, I've probably learned the most from races I've actually raced, even if only to learn what I'm capable of. It's great when you surprise yourself.
And I love the social side of races too, especially the summer evening races. If I'm going to chicken out I'll do it properly and just not bother me hoop showing up.

Chivito550

hot buttered scones wrote: »

I would agree with some of what ypu said there, but wouldn't 100% agree with the main gist of the paragraph. Most of the races I run I'm chasing a PB, or if that's not on the cards, I'm chasing the guy just in front of me, and I give it all I've got. But I have entered races with the specific aim of gaining race practice without putting in 100% effort in order to be more prepared for my goal race. For example I ran Cork to Cobh mostly to get some miles at MP and practice fueling etc. for Dublin. Entering races like this and leaving a bit in the tank can help to build confidence and nail down strategy for a goal race, so your still gaining experience without jeopardising your main aim. Of course I could have just done a 15 mile long run on my own, but you can't learn control under race conditions like that. Or running the Ballyandreen 5 at PMP because it was the week before the Cork marathon and I wanted to run all the Ballycotton summer series races - not too expensive either at only €5. But yeah, I've probably learned the most from races I've actually raced, even if only to learn what I'm capable of. It's great when you surprise yourself.
And I love the social side of races too, especially the summer evening races. If I'm going to chicken out I'll do it properly and just not bother me hoop showing up.

Yes if you have a goal race which you are 100% doing. But many have a goal race which is always the next one after what they are currently doing, and the goal race never happens, and just becomes another race run easy.

snailsong

Excellent thread, this. I agree with most of what's been said, particularly planning.
I think more could be said re pacing, particularly at longer distances. I despair a bit when I read marathon reports along the lines of "I was hoping to break 4:30, came in at 4:18, absolutely delighted". This clearly indicates a failure to know what you're capable of, and how fast you need to run. Most marathon disasters are as a result of poor pacing. When you stand on the start line you should know exactly how fast you're going to start, target time at 10k, half way and so on. These should be planned with regard to hills, winds etc. Course profiles are available in advance, weather forecasts too. A plan B ideally too, but at least a plan A. People, particularly novices, invest months of training, hardship and compromise in a race and regularly neglect the half hour, ideally with a coach or friend, at the kitchen table that could be worth a month of hard slog on the roads.

I dont have much experience of the pointy end of races but I'll say this. If you want to pass someone then really pass them. Tuck in behind, gather your energy, wait til the time is right and attack. Ideally on an uphill, stride past purposefully, don't even glance at your victim and open a gap immediately. With any luck they won't respond.☺

Chartsengrafs

Must disagree with the marathon example snailsong. Part of the reason people's results often vary so greatly from expectations (particularly for novices) is that unless you've raced 26 miles how can you know how it will go? And even if you've done a couple it's still difficult, I find, to gauge what your maximum potential is in advance. A failure to know what you are capable of can only really be corrected by racing (and I would apply that to all distances).

IMO your example of aiming for 4:30 and running 4:18 is the perfect approach. It's a distance that requires a certain amount of caution. Otherwise one could be found back on Boards a few weeks after a marathon "I was in sub-3 shape, but..."

In relation to the topic in general, suffering is huge and I agree hugely with the relaxation aspect. Relaxing in advance (or trying to) has paid dividends for me this year.

Clearlier

A great topic Myles!

There are lots of variations but I think that at the foundation of a good race are three things:

Goals
Plan
Execution

Have a goal
I think that the most important thing for racing well is to know what you want to get out of a race (have a goal). It has to be a sensible goal though and it should be specific, measurable and realistic.
Specific - Do you want to do a race in a certain time, do a training run, win or run for a specific place?
Measurable - finishing as far up the field as you can isn't measurable, finishing in the top ten, beating a specific person etc. is.
Achievable - I'd like to qualify for the Olympics but it's just a little out of my reach at the moment. Running sub 40 for a 10k would be a little more achievable.

Have a plan + variations
Now that you've got a goal how are you going to go about achieving it?

Here it's important to know yourself. If you're racing for position are you a fast finisher or a slow one? If you're looking to win a sprint finish what are you going to do if the pace is really slow? What are you going to do if someone takes off halfway through the race? If you're looking to burn off your pursuers before the final lap how are you going to achieve that? What if your pursuer(s) is hanging on to your shoulder regardless of what you do?

If you're racing for time do you do better going out hard and hanging on or starting steady and building into a race? What are you going to do if it's windy? If you're racing on the road what's the profile of the race? When do you expect to gain time and where to lose time? How well do you run on hills?

Execute the plan
The little detail that's often forgotten or ignored. How many times have you heard people say that after training for a sub-4 marathon they went out at 3:30 pace and held onto it until they blew up because it felt easy? If you're looking for a training race and you want a certain training effect you might want to consider wearing a HRM and running to that. If you're looking to win the race with a sprint finish make sure that you're in the right position heading into the last lap of the track.

snailsong

Basster wrote: »

Must disagree with the marathon example snailsong. Part of the reason people's results often vary so greatly from expectations (particularly for novices) is that unless you've raced 26 miles how can you know how it will go? And even if you've done a couple it's still difficult, I find, to gauge what your maximum potential is in advance. A failure to know what you are capable of can only really be corrected by racing (and I would apply that to all distances).

IMO your example of aiming for 4:30 and running 4:18 is the perfect approach. It's a distance that requires a certain amount of caution. Otherwise one could be found back on Boards a few weeks after a marathon "I was in sub-3 shape, but..."

In relation to the topic in general, suffering is huge and I agree hugely with the relaxation aspect. Relaxing in advance (or trying to) has paid dividends for me this year.

I think you can get a good idea of what you're capable of from your times over shorter distances, particularly the half.

I'm not talking about sticking to a target and then the wheels come off at 21 miles, it's happened to us all. Likewise, running conservatively, getting negative splits and finishing strong to knock another minute or two off the time. That's a good plan in itself. But if someone has a target and beats it by 12 minutes how does that happen? By running 30 per mile faster than planned from the off? Or going through half way as planned and going 55 seconds per mile faster in the second half? These are the approaches which regularly lead to disaster. If you get away with that sort of pacing then surely the plan was miles off in the first place.

I agree with what Clearlier said below, make a plan and execute the plan.

HelenAnne

Ruu wrote: »

^^Great points, for someone who suffers with anxiety, relaxation and planning, planning and more planning is key otherwise my energy is spent on everyone else around me before the race has even started.

Ever since I got my 'Believe' training journal, which I love, I've been finding planning the day helpful -- it has 'race day plan' pages with headings like 'eat', 'relax' 'travel', where you write in when you'll do each thing, as well as 'Notes on course / event' etc. I find that kind of planning really helpful.

HelenAnne

snailsong wrote: »

I dont have much experience of the pointy end of races but I'll say this. If you want to pass someone then really pass them. Tuck in behind, gather your energy, wait til the time is right and attack. Ideally on an uphill, stride past purposefully, don't even glance at your victim and open a gap immediately. With any luck they won't respond.☺

'When you're passing somebody, make it count - create a gap straight away', as Ronnie Delany once said to me! (He was just getting something work-related from me on the phone and asked me when I was next racing; as it happened I had a club race that night and that's what he told me :-).

Enduro

Just to ensure this is taken in the right way... the following is not intended as any kind of critisim any one or any post at all.

A lot of what is being posted is all about performing well. And to race well you definitely have to perform well. But there is a (possibly dark) art to racing that goes beyond performance, such as the advice immediately above about making the overtake count. Racing well is a distinctive step beyond perfoming well. If performing well takes you clear of everyone then you don't need to worry about racing well, but for most of us we're going to be left racing against someone, even when we're performing pretty much optimally.

With my racing brain on, I reckon I could use the information posted by most people above against them in a race to gain an edge. Disrupting your oppenents to throw them off and gain an edge... the dark art of racing , but possibly one of the more fun aspects.

For example... if you're racing against someone who you can feel gaining on you, and you know that they want to make the overtake count, as advised above. One possible disruptive tactic would be to ease off a bit to let them make a clean overtake more easily, and use the slight rest gained from easing off to surge back and pass them again, making sure to leave a long enough gap that they would have assumed they made a clean overtake.

Enduro

snailsong wrote: »

I dont have much experience of the pointy end of races but I'll say this. If you want to pass someone then really pass them. Tuck in behind, gather your energy, wait til the time is right and attack. Ideally on an uphill, stride past purposefully, don't even glance at your victim and open a gap immediately. With any luck they won't respond.☺

When I read the bit about not even a glance, it made me think of one of my favourite overtakes (and sporting memories) of all time, totally and utterly breaking this rule to magnificant affect! Total dominance. (Unfotunately I couldn't find the RTE commentary, which really adds the emphasis).

Sacksian

Again, I know, a contrarian view - but the "make the overtake count" thing is also (for me) more magical thinking. Sorry, HelenAnne!

In the example above, Coghlan won because he was able to judge his pace and effort better - it's the last 100m of a track race! Nothing particularly artful, other than rightfully having confidence in a miler's kick. In fact, I'd say Dmitriyev lost out on a medal completely because of the dramatic nature of his earlier surge (which he was obviously trying to make count).

The classic "group hopping" tactic that KU referred to earlier, which I interpret as being about targetting a steady movement from group to group, taking a small time to settle and deciding whether or not to stick or twist each time - not dramatic surges. It's how I race XC.

But if you are surging from group to group in a race (to make an overtake stick), rather than simply maintaining your pace to overtake and drop people, you're either going to seriously damage your race prospects or you should be much further up the road in the first place. It's certainly not going to help you run your best time or achieve your best position.

I have used surges to maintain the lead of a race that I was going to win anyway, or used a couple of surges to improve position in a track race but I'm not going to run away from someone 5s better than me in a 1500m race by sprinting 20m ahead of them at a random point - and almost all of the races I've won have been where I've either let someone else put 20m into me before reeling them back in (in one 1500m race, the leader was possibly 200m ahead!), or sat on their shoulder.

There is a reason why sit-and-kick is the preferred - and almost exclusive - racing strategy in all middle distance and long distance competition. While it might not be as exciting to watch as all the other tactics, in 99% of cases, it is the best option (for everyone). Unless you're a front runner, which really only works for some very special runners, or those who are in a race where they are far ahead of their competition. There are exceptions, but they are exceptions.

I can honestly say that someone sprinting past me in the middle of any race is just going to make me think I'll see them further up the road in a bit and I'll go past them by maintaining my pace. If they move past me steadily then that gives me a decision, but I'll know fairly quickly how well they've judged it and whether I need to sit in or let them go.

snailsong

I remember watching that as a young fellow. Fantastic moment in sport.

Re overtaking and reovertaking..?
I was at a 10 k yesterday and experienced both sides of that. I wasn't in line for any prize but hoping for top ten if possible. A lad passed me at 5 k or so and excellerating at that point was not in my plan so I let him off. About 9.5 k and there was a sharp downhill, followed by a sharp, short uphill. I slipped inside him on the down and hit the uphill at max effort, beat him by a few seconds. Meanwhile, the first lady seemed to go off very fast so when I passed her at 6 k or so I thought she was in reverse. However, when she strided past at 8k I had no answer.

Some people might think it's a bit petty battling it out for 9th or 10th place but for me that's one of the most enjoyable aspects of racing.

TFBubendorfer

snailsong wrote: »

Some people might think it's a bit petty battling it out for 9th or 10th place but for me that's one of the most enjoyable aspects of racing.

If some people think that then some people have no idea what running a race is all about!

demfad

Sacksian wrote: »

Again, I know, a contrarian view - but the "make the overtake count" thing is also (for me) more magical thinking. Sorry, HelenAnne!

In the example above, Coghlan won because he was able to judge his pace and effort better - it's the last 100m of a track race! Nothing particularly artful, other than rightfully having confidence in a miler's kick. In fact, I'd say Dmitriyev lost out on a medal completely because of the dramatic nature of his earlier surge (which he was obviously trying to make count).

The classic "group hopping" tactic that KU referred to earlier, which I interpret as being about targetting a steady movement from group to group, taking a small time to settle and deciding whether or not to stick or twist each time - not dramatic surges. It's how I race XC.

But if you are surging from group to group in a race (to make an overtake stick), rather than simply maintaining your pace to overtake and drop people, you're either going to seriously damage your race prospects or you should be much further up the road in the first place. It's certainly not going to help you run your best time or achieve your best position.

I have used surges to maintain the lead of a race that I was going to win anyway, or used a couple of surges to improve position in a track race but I'm not going to run away from someone 5s better than me in a 1500m race by sprinting 20m ahead of them at a random point - and almost all of the races I've won have been where I've either let someone else put 20m into me before reeling them back in (in one 1500m race, the leader was possibly 200m ahead!), or sat on their shoulder.

There is a reason why sit-and-kick is the preferred - and almost exclusive - racing strategy in all middle distance and long distance competition. While it might not be as exciting to watch as all the other tactics, in 99% of cases, it is the best option (for everyone). Unless you're a front runner, which really only works for some very special runners, or those who are in a race where they are far ahead of their competition. There are exceptions, but they are exceptions.

I can honestly say that someone sprinting past me in the middle of any race is just going to make me think I'll see them further up the road in a bit and I'll go past them by maintaining my pace. If they move past me steadily then that gives me a decision, but I'll know fairly quickly how well they've judged it and whether I need to sit in or let them go.

I think the appropriate tactics are relative to the situation. You are right but these tactics hold true for very experienced athletes who pace well in good terrain and conditions. Tactics will vary depending on the terrain, race distance and distance left to race. The competitors individual strenght's and likely finish position are also important.

The "make the overtake count" example is one that can be both a very good tactic or not the right one. This (as all tactics) are decided simply by the question: will the manouvre help my overall result/goal in this race?

The tactic wont apply to middle distance as you pointed out and most long distance track situations.

If its early in any race its usually not good to surge, it may cost you places. There are exceptions to this usually involving race specific issues. Congestion issues in XC races at the start or on tight/twisty/hilly sections of courses can be aided by surges.
Apart from that its probably a potential tactic for later in races (but not middle distance as you pointed out)

Lets look at late in a road race. You are catching a runner ahead and going to catch them. Is the 'make the overtake count' tactic correct?

Yes if:
-you judge that the tactic will work i.e that the runner is sufficiently fatigued or inexperienced to respond. Do you know this runner (preparation)?
-and....the tactic benefits your race goal: surging passed this runner will not hurt your race goal in anyway: such as curbing your ability to catch other runners further up the road. Is he/she the last runner you can catch? Is beating this runner especially signicant? ...same category? a big rival/scalp?
-and... is the tactic actually necessary anyway. Is the runner so fatigued that you can disregard them? Are you the better finisher?

Basically you need to know if the tactic will work, will be of benefit, and is actually necessary.

Just to look at the group hopping tactic (I use it a lot). Good for XC if you don't have a chance of winning and are looking for a percentage performance. If there is congestion you may lose more time than gained though. The team element can be relevant to individual tactics. If there is a lot of team members then one might feel like having a cut especially if a team medal was possible. That said if there is a minimum of team members you may not be able to afford anyone to bomb and sink the team so a conservative start and group hoping is more beneficial to the team then.

I agree with your points in that they would hold mainly for experienced athletes, in good conditions who always pace well. As these variables change/deteriorate though other tactics can be used successfully.

Edit: I think its almost like a football match. The more advanced and strong the defense you're playing the more intricate the attack tactic needs to be..and vice versa.

libelula

snailsong wrote: »

Some people might think it's a bit petty battling it out for 9th or 10th place but for me that's one of the most enjoyable aspects of racing.

I'd take the legs out from under someone for 151th place, so if that's petty then I win first prize :pac:
Picking someone off is still very very sweet, no matter how far back the pack you are.