Most important element of racing well (Aside from training)

Myles Splitz

Sorry I know this is a little vague but I thought it might be an interesting topic so I don't want to elaborate too much but looking to see what people think are the most important elements and characteristics to performing well on race day aside from just putting in the work.

Ability to dig deep? handle surges? maintain a particular effort?

Also what do people do to train themselves for this.

tang1

Good coach!!

I'll never be at the pointy end of a race so don't have to worry about people surging past me. Training to maintain a particular effort throughout a race would be my main objective when it comes to racing.

ger664

Be able to chill and relax before and early in a race. Sonia had an article going around last week that pretty much hit the nail on the head about where she was when she won both XC World Championships.

The first big test came for me in 1998 at the World Cross Country, in Morocco. I had a diary full of training completed. I was very fit and ready to race. I knew there was no more I could do than just run relaxed, and controlled, until the point where I could take off and ensure victory.
I never really thought about winning the race, just getting myself to the point in the race where victory was an option. Then came the point in every race when instinct must take over: when that point came, I was able to win with such ease that I actually surprised myself.

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pconn062

The ability to suffer.

Myles Splitz

tang1 wrote: »

Good coach!!

I'll never be at the pointy end of a race so don't have to worry about people surging past me. Training to maintain a particular effort throughout a race would be my main objective when it comes to raving.

I wonder can surging be helpful in order to get back on pace when you start to hurt and paces start to drop though or fluctuating intensity on tougher courses. Just musing here about how different elements often overlooked may help all us mid packers as well as the ones vying for podiums.

pconn062 wrote: »

The ability to suffer.

Definitely one which is usually mentioned. Can it be replicated in training or is it just something you either have or not?

I have seen some training sessions like the Scott Simmons "Hammers" or reps where they are run hard at start and end but moderate in between in order to replicate race scenario's (Say a km rep in 3.30 where first and last 200 are run in 39s with the middle run at 44s pace)

Myles Splitz

ger664 wrote: »

Be able to chill and relax before and early in a race. Sonia had an article going around last week that pretty much hit the nail on the head about where she was when she won both XC World Championships.



Full Article

It's an interesting one. I have gone into races feeling invincible and that I could do no wrong and things clicked on the day and I reckon I ran above and beyond what I thought I was capable of, others I have gone in confidence and ended up being too aggressive and it costing me places or seconds.

It's a fine line I think between being too relaxed or too wound up.

KielyUnusual

Its a good question and I think you can probably break it up in to the different types of races, which are approached very differently.

Marathon

Its a long race so pacing is integral. I always broke it up into 3 segments

0-5 Miles - Keep very comfortable and run slower than race pace
5-20 Miles - Get up to race pace and ideally find a group to run with. Its a long segment so try and not think too far away. Can be hard to motivate yourself if you are finding it tough and there are still 15-20 miles to go. Accept that there will be peaks and troughs effort wise. One of the big things is keeping the pace when times are tough. More often than not you will come through on the other side but if you slow down then it is neigh on impossible to pick it back up
20-26.2 - Just concentrate on keeping the same turnover and drive relentlessly to the end. If you are keeping pace, then you will be passing people and this is a great motivator.

5 Mile to Half Marathon

All about finding a good group that you can barely hang on to and hanging on in there. All my good races at these distances have been where I've found a group that I thought was just about right for my level and then moving on to the next group . If you get isolated and between groups in a race like this then hard to run well

3K-5K

Group running again is big. You really have to run at a stupid effort level to get a good time in a 3K/5K. If by one third in, you're not questioning why you are there and putting yourself through this hell then you are not trying hard enough :P

8-1500

Concentration is key in the middle distance events. If you lose concentration for a second or two then you can drift off the back easily and its hard to catch back up. Its good to go out hard so you're not getting boxed in or having to run in lane three. If you're running for time then lap two and three are critically. Just staying with the group is more often than not just not good enough. You really have to push on here to maintain pace. A 6-7 second gap between lap times on what seems like a similar effort can so easily happen. The last lap takes care of itself but its the middle laps that really dictate the time you are going to get

XC

Cross country is all about relentlessly driving on. The good races are the ones where you're able to just keep pushing, pushing, pushing, every runner on the course is your bitter enemy and you don't think about the laps, just the places that you can make before the finish line. Running lots of races is important because the first one or two can be a shock to the system and you need to get used to the type of heavy legs that only come with running in the mud. Getting to know your competitors is useful (the ones inside you club too ) because there's nothing like a good rivalry to push you that little bit harder.

Itziger

pconn062 wrote: »

The ability to suffer.

Even though we all know this is important, I still think it's under-rated. I'd love to read an in-depth study on a number of runners, some of whom could 'suffer' a lot and others who just seem to call it quits too early. I honestly don't know where I am on a 1-100 scale.

There is also the question of motivation/desire tied up with this. Sometimes when I look at people finishing races, I'm amused that the faster ones are all dried spit and grimaces while the slower runners tend to be smiling and waving at the crowd.

Myles Splitz

Itziger wrote: »

Even though we all know this is important, I still think it's under-rated. I'd love to read an in-depth study on a number of runners, some of whom could 'suffer' a lot and others who just seem to call it quits too early. I honestly don't know where I am on a 1-100 scale.

There is also the question of motivation/desire tied up with this. Sometimes when I look at people finishing races, I'm amused that the faster ones are all dried spit and grimaces while the slower runners tend to be smiling and waving at the crowd.

I think that this is definitely an important thing to consider. I know myself that despite wanting to and really trying hard in races that there are some races for what ever reason I am not able to access that last few percent of effort.

I have ran 3 races this month yet for what ever reason despite good runs in the first two I finished asking myself was it really all I had to give (probably was on the day but I didn't have the dry wretching coming down the finish kicking hard feeling)

sideswipe

pconn062 wrote: »

The ability to suffer.

The ability not to suffer.

Dealing with and accepting pain and discomfort as a sign that you are working hard enough. I find I only suffer when I'm mentally weak and start focusing on the pain in a negative way. Thats the difference between pain and suffering

KielyUnusual

ger664 wrote: »

Be able to chill and relax before and early in a race. Sonia had an article going around last week that pretty much hit the nail on the head about where she was when she won both XC World Championships.



Full Article

That's a really good article, excellently written. Just when I thought I couldn't be more impressed with Sonia.

KielyUnusual

KielyUnusual wrote: »

That's a really good article, excellently written. Just when I thought I couldn't be more impressed with Sonia.

Looks like it might be a weekly column in the Irish Times. Excellent.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/sonia-o-sullivan-variety-can-spice-up-your-training-regime-1.2451986

pconn062

sideswipe wrote: »

The ability not to suffer.

Dealing with and accepting pain and discomfort as a sign that you are working hard enough. I find I only suffer when I'm mentally weak and start focusing on the pain in a negative way. Thats the difference between pain and suffering

To me the ability to suffer means to be able to maintain your concentration, pace, position, etc despite every fiber in your body telling you to stop, slow down, give up etc. It is very much a mental as well as a physical thing, and the mental side of racing is something that needs more emphasis than we often give it. I agree with KU's analysis above regarding different distances requiring particular skills, especially regarding XC and middle distance. To me, XC requires the greatest ability to suffer through burning lungs and tired legs.

sideswipe

pconn062 wrote: »

To me the ability to suffer means to be able to maintain your concentration, pace, position, etc despite every fiber in your body telling you to stop, slow down, give up etc. It is very much a mental as well as a physical thing, and the mental side of racing is something that needs more emphasis than we often give it. I agree with KU's analysis above regarding different distances requiring particular skills, especially regarding XC and middle distance. To me, XC requires the greatest ability to suffer through burning lungs and tired legs.

Couldn't agree more. I have always been a mentally weak runner, I've always struggled when the going got tough.
My point about there being a difference between pain and suffering comes from a book recommendation I got on here- Brain Training For Runners.
Decent enough read and helped me become more focused while racing.

menoscemo

Itziger wrote: »

Even though we all know this is important, I still think it's under-rated. I'd love to read an in-depth study on a number of runners, some of whom could 'suffer' a lot and others who just seem to call it quits too early. I honestly don't know where I am on a 1-100 scale.

There is also the question of motivation/desire tied up with this. Sometimes when I look at people finishing races, I'm amused that the faster ones are all dried spit and grimaces while the slower runners tend to be smiling and waving at the crowd.

I often RD at Cabinteely parkrun and with the start/finish line at the top of a hill on a 3 lap course we get to see all the runners 3 times. It is noticeable that while the lead runners appear to be much more comfortable when peaking the hill mid run, at the end they are almost always buckled over. They generally take 1-2 minutes of 'recovery' just to be able to go over and get scanned. Conversely other runners who appeared to be suffering mid run generally can get their token and get scanned immediately.

I definitely think that one of the most important elements of racing is to race frequently. Especially so for beginners as it takes a lot of racing just to realise where your limits are. I think a lot of the reason why I set a lot of PBs in my first few years running was not so much because I got fitter but also because I learned how to suffer better.

Chivito550

The ability to be competitive.

I don't mean winning medals. I mean entering a race and being competitive amongst those around your level. Not just running for a time, or to finish a distance, but to try beat the person in your running group, the few people around your level in the Boards Novice Thread, making sure to hold off somebody who on paper was a bit slower than you, that kind of thing. Too often in mass participation events, we just see 5000+ runners doing their own thing. Why not make the race an actual race too, and not have the clock as the only important measure of a performance. You should want to beat somebody you know running around your level. That's what makes it a race. So get out and race the people in your race.

Also, racing a race is also something people need to do more of. How many times do we hear people say "I'll do xxxx race", "at a tempo pace", "at PMP pace", "I won't be "racing" it though" etc. It's so easy to do this, and to me it's just wussing out of races IMO. So many people do it it is quite amazing. Fear of actually putting themselves on the line and not performing well, so instead there's the fall back of "I wasn't racing it anyway". People need to stop with this attitude IMO. The more you actually race, the more you learn. Besides, fairly expensive training run if you don't actually race it.

rom

Chivito550 wrote: »

The ability to be competitive.

I don't mean winning medals. I mean entering a race and being competitive amongst those around your level. Not just running for a time, or to finish a distance, but to try beat the person in your running group, the few people around your level in the Boards Novice Thread, making sure to hold off somebody who on paper was a bit slower than you, that kind of thing. Too often in mass participation events, we just see 5000+ runners doing their own thing. Why not make the race an actual race too, and not have the clock as the only important measure of a performance. You should want to beat somebody you know running around your level. That's what makes it a race. So get out and race the people in your race.

Also, racing a race is also something people need to do more of. How many times do we hear people say "I'll do xxxx race", "at a tempo pace", "at PMP pace", "I won't be "racing" it though" etc. It's so easy to do this, and to me it's just wussing out of races IMO. So many people do it it is quite amazing. Fear of actually putting themselves on the line and not performing well, so instead there's the fall back of "I wasn't racing it anyway". People need to stop with this attitude IMO. The more you actually race, the more you learn. Besides, fairly expensive training run if you don't actually race it.

This is why XC is great as its the only focus. The other year there was 3 teams picked for XC. They put me on the third team. They asked a guy that I think I would beat if he would go on the A team if someone didnt turn up. The guy did turn up. I beat everyone on the 2nd and 3rd team to prove my point but said nothing. Loved that race.

Itziger

rom wrote: »

This is why XC is great as its the only focus. The other year there was 3 teams picked for XC. They put me on the third team. They asked a guy that I think I would beat if he would go on the A team if someone didnt turn up. The guy did turn up. I beat everyone on the 2nd and 3rd team to prove my point but said nothing. Loved that race.

Loving the team spirit Rom!!

No 'I' in team, remember?

Chivito550

Itziger wrote: »

Loving the team spirit Rom!!

No 'I' in team, remember?

but there is an M E

Enduro

Great thread! I've got lots of scattered thoughts on this. I've raced over many sports and distances for a long time now. I've evolved over the years to the point where I've won running races from distance of 3.5km up to 6 days.

Racing is most definitely a skill in itself. I think that as a sport runners in general are pretty good at racing (Mountain bikers and triathletes for example, in comparison might have similar levels of fitness, but can often be less able racers)

Agree entirely with KU... different race distances have very different mental requirements. Even the nature of the pain/suffering varies considerably. Pushing out beyond Marathon into ultras leads to some more extreme examples. There are very few people who can truely race multi-day ultras well. Mostly people survive them. Knowing how to pace any distance/terrain/condtions that you race is key. That's usually a learned skill.

Talent and hard work are obviously the foundation which has to be present to compete well. Drive and ambition are necessary to race well.

Over the long term... the ability to analyse and to learn is hugely important. A lot of athletes can offload this to their coach. But unless your coach knows you really well (in an athletics sense!) then I would think this is unlikely to be optimal, to say the least.

I remember having a very interesting conversation with a former team-mate who was a profesional poker player. I was trying to see if there was any common keys to success. His answer to the key to being a good poker player was "controlled aggression". I think that is probably common to most sports. From a running perspective agression is the more straightforward part. Having the drive and ambition, and an element of ruthlessness. The controlled part is harder to master, and requires more learning and self analysis.

There are so many factors which sum up to being a good racer. Some others which spring to mind:

• Ambition
• Drive
• embracing challenge
• Having a plan for how to race
• Committing absolutely to the plan
• Focus
• Knowing when to change the plan
• Adaptability
• Fearlessness
• Confidence
• Perspective
• Realism
• self-knowledge
• being disruptive
• coping with disruption
• Ruthlessness

A lot of the above list are somewhat contradictory. It's how its all summed together. Even the best athletes don't get everything right all the time.

Enduro

Itziger wrote: »

Loving the team spirit Rom!!

No 'I' in team, remember?

Sacksian

I'll go against the grain here and say that I honestly think the psychological aspects to racing are wildly overestimated, or at least the importance of the ability to "suffer".

I would place much greater importance on maintaining relaxation and control at pace - which is more a function of adequate (+ appropriate) training, for you and the distance - than being able to withstand pain.

If your training paces don't match up to your race paces, then it's much, much more likely that you're doing something wrong in training, not in races - the biggest mistake I see in logs here and in club training is confusing 3k pace with 5k pace and 5k with 10k, etc. The most likely remedy for poor performance is better or more training.

I used to say that I'd never run a good 5k because I wasn't able to suffer (I feel like that about the 3k now) but it turns out that when you train specifically + consistently for a distance, running a pb becomes a bit easier!

Obviously, there's going to be effort in any race, but if you're looking for ways at getting x% more out of yourself, I'd look at your training first. Don't confuse someone else's facial expressions with their effort! It's just a question of style.

Isn't it a bit of a cop-out to think that it's a psychological issue and there's nothing wrong with your training? You can't consistently outrun fitness and ability. Myself and a training partner used to joke about how fast we could run if we could just learn to suffer.

My hardest races, and the ones in which I've suffered most, have been the ones I've been least-prepared for (whether through illness, injury or lack of training) and performed worst and in the few races I've won on the track, primarily at 800 and 1500, I've felt in control and like I had tactical options - presumably because I had confidence in my training.

If you can't hold pace in a 5k, I would say it's because of bad tactics or bad training, not because of your (in)ability to suffer.

<exhale>

pconn062

Sacksian wrote: »

I'll go against the grain here and say that I honestly think the psychological aspects to racing are wildly overestimated, or at least the importance of the ability to "suffer".

I would place much greater importance on maintaining relaxation and control at pace - which is more a function of adequate (+ appropriate) training, for you and the distance - than being able to withstand pain.

If your training paces don't match up to your race paces, then it's much, much more likely that you're doing something wrong in training, not in races - the biggest mistake I see in logs here and in club training is confusing 3k pace with 5k pace and 5k with 10k, etc. The most likely remedy for poor performance is better or more training.

I used to say that I'd never run a good 5k because I wasn't able to suffer (I feel like that about the 3k now) but it turns out that when you train specifically + consistently for a distance, running a pb becomes a bit easier!

Obviously, there's going to be effort in any race, but if you're looking for ways at getting x% more out of yourself, I'd look at your training first. Don't confuse someone else's facial expressions with their effort! It's just a question of style.

Isn't it a bit of a cop-out to think that it's a psychological issue and there's nothing wrong with your training? You can't consistently outrun fitness and ability. Myself and a training partner used to joke about how fast we could run if we could just learn to suffer.

My hardest races, and the ones in which I've suffered most, have been the ones I've been least-prepared for (whether through illness, injury or lack of training) and performed worst and in the few races I've won on the track, primarily at 800 and 1500, I've felt in control and like I had tactical options - presumably because I had confidence in my training.

If you can't hold pace in a 5k, I would say it's because of bad tactics or bad training, not because of your (in)ability to suffer.

<exhale>

I see where you're coming from but I (respectfully!) disagree. When I'm talking about being able to "suffer" (which is a very dramatic word!) I'm talking about well trained runners who have the sufficient training done for the specific event. I agree that no amount of suffering is going to get you a 10k PB if you haven't the required training done for the event!

A good example of what I mean is this. A friend of mine joined our club about two years ago. He came from an elite cycling background, one of Ireland's top national cyclists in the late 80's/90's. He was very fit and took to running like a duck to water. Was amazed me most what his ability to go really hard in cross country races, seemingly going into the red after 2k of a 10k race and then just maintain it, even speeding up towards the end! Now obviously he was fit but in these longer, harder races he was running above his stall. When I asked him about it, he said it was down to cycling. He said in cycling you could be asked to go to the front and really drive the pace, and you could be asked to do this for an hour or even more. He said you could be right on the edge but you had a job to do for the team, so you simply kept going for as long as necessary at a very high effort level. So, by the time he came to running he had this amazing ability to sit in the red without wilting for very long periods of time which meant in his first year of running he came 10th in the senior county XC! Now obviously as I said, he was fit as well but over the road I could stick with him and on short distances on the track I could beat him but on the XC he had a huge mental edge.

And while I'm throwing out stories, here's another! I train a group of fit4life runners and after a few months of running I took them down to do a parkrun as there first race. it was a lapped course so the leaders passed them after about 3k. Afterwards they told me that they could not believe how hard the leaders were working and breathing and that they sounded like they were hyperventilating! However I was following the front of the "race" and the guys never really dropped pace at any stage and picked it up for the last 1k. I tried to explain that these guys and girls were simply used to getting up to a very high effort and then maintaining it (of course they were well trained for the event as well), where as my fit4lifers would have stopped to walk if their breathing sounded the same.

It's always funny when you hear beginner runners saying it must be so easy for the fast guys, yet at any races I am at it's the faster guys who are breathing harder, look more uncomfortable! The beginner runners have yet to learn how to really hurt in a race, and that it's OK to really hurt in race! Like training, it is a skill that must be practiced and learned.

Sacksian

No worries! I'm not trying to convince anyone who thinks the opposite, just putting it out there as an alternative perspective - and I tend to find myself on the contrarian side of a few training debates, so it probably just suits me to think like this!

My take on the cycling guy would be that while might have looked like he was redlining 2k into a 10k race, I'm not sure he would have finished the race if he had been! What I would imagine he had trained from elite cycling is the ability to maintain effort around his threshold. And I'd see that as a physiological, rather than psychological, attribute.

If anything, his performances probably demonstrate the fundamental advantage that a huge aerobic base (however it's acquired) gives you in running. I'm thinking it might be similar to Colin Griffin's marathon debut, where he was able to speed up in the last 10k of an already impressive performance, despite having used a relatively reduced marathon training programme, due to the 10,000s of miles he had put in walking. Over short distances, that aerobic advantage is minimised.

My story is of being lapped twice by John Travers last year at the baseline. I was floundering and panting while he *floated* by (twice!) as if he was on a magic carpet and, seemingly, not suffering on his way to a completely solo 8:07. Imagine what he'd run if he could suffer!!

I just think it's a bit of a sop for people to say that they could run faster times and race better if only they could suffer more. As one of the least well-defined variables in performance and, by extension, least measurable, they'd be better off forgetting about it and concentrating on training that is more controllable. I'm just not convinced of the utility of even thinking about it.

As I said before, if your race times don't match up to your training paces, I'd look to training first.

Again, this is all just my personal take on it. Generally, I race better than I train (I can hold paces in races that I can't in training) and work harder in a race than I do in training so this is what works for me. I don't really relate to the war stories from races, so maybe I'd be running much quicker if I could suffer more too!

demfad

Coming from a hill running and road running perspective I think preparation is very important in races. Analyse and know your form, the runners likely to be around you, their form, know the course inside out, know where the hills are, know exactly how long you'll be running (suffering) up them, know where you'll get relief on the course, know the windy parts, imagine what you will do when the going gets tough, who is best to hang on to if necessary?, where can you pick it up, where can you drop someone, etc etc

Always warmup up on the closing section of the race course, look at the physical characteristics of this closing few k, work out the difficult psychological points of this closing stage, particularly work out where the combination of angst from perceived distance remaining and physical discomfort is at its maximum, pick a physical cue around this area, when you see this plan to dig in...or think that the worst is over...or drop a suffering opponent.

Leaving a lot of these things to be ad-libbed during the race means a lot more opportunity to make mistakes tactically or psychologically.

Sacksian

demfad wrote: »

Coming from a hill running and road running perspective I think preparation is very important in races. Analyse and know your form, the runners likely to be around you, their form, know the course inside out, know where the hills are, know exactly how long you'll be running (suffering) up them, know where you'll get relief on the course, know the windy parts, imagine what you will do when the going gets tough, who is best to hang on to if necessary?, where can you pick it up, where can you drop someone, etc etc

Always warmup up on the closing section of the race course, look at the physical characteristics of this closing few k, work out the difficult psychological points of this closing stage, particularly work out where the combination of angst from perceived distance remaining and physical discomfort is at its maximum, pick a physical cue around this area, when you see this plan to dig in...or think that the worst is over...or drop a suffering opponent.

Leaving a lot of these things to be ad-libbed during the race means a lot more opportunity to make mistakes tactically or psychologically.

I'd strongly agree with this type of preparation for xc too. I always feel more comfortable knowing the course well, what the competition is likely to be, and having a couple of different - but definite - plans in my head beforehand.

For the national novice, I'm going to sprint as hard as I can for the first mile and, once I get out of sight, hide behind a tree until the leaders come around on the 3rd lap.

RayCun

Just my own experience is that I know there have been races where I could have run faster, but backed off instead of pushing on. But it does relate to training as well - if I feel well-trained coming into a race I want to put in the performance my training deserves. If I don't feel sharp I'm more likely to settle.

MacSwifty

Sleep

dna_leri

For me it is: Confidence, Motivation & Experience.

Confidence comes from your training and your preparation, including mental prep. If your training has gone well and you are physically strong, you will know you can push to your limit and won't hold back. Preparation is about the little details, planning your race day, having a plan A,B,C and knowing when to use each.

Motivation is what gives you the drive to push on when you feel the pain, to work to stay with the group, to surge ahead when you feel strong, to kick hard at the finish. Motivation comes from within, desire to PB, to beat the guy who usually finishes in front of you, to win for the team.

Experience from previous races will tell you how hard you can push, whether to negative or positive split, what your limits are and are-not, whether to go out hard and where to position yourself.

When those 3 come together on the back of a solid block of training, you have a chance to PB or Compete or Perform to your best. The only other ingredient is luck but the harder and smarter you work the luckier you get.

ThisRegard

Sacksian wrote: »

Isn't it a bit of a cop-out to think that it's a psychological issue and there's nothing wrong with your training?

I don't think so. You can often talk yourself into having a bad race when you're standing around thinking you're not in the mood for this today, it's going to be a bad run.

HelenAnne

KielyUnusual wrote: »

3K-5K

Group running again is big. You really have to run at a stupid effort level to get a good time in a 3K/5K. If by one third in, you're not questioning why you are there and putting yourself through this hell then you are not trying hard enough :P

.

This is so helpful. Someone (maybe you!) said something v similar about 5k here on boards a few years ago. Very often in a 5k I hit a point where I just want to slow down or stop and I think 'If you don't feel like stopping in a 5k you're not running fast enough', and then, probably because I feel I'm doing something right, I feel better .

One of the main things I've had to work on for races is getting to the start line, once the gun goes off, I usually feel OK, and I seem to run in or around the pace I intended, but I get so nervous beforehand that I've really had to work on both relaxation and distraction to get me to the start on time and in a fit state to run!

Before the Raheny 5 I help with the kids' registration and races and that really takes my mind off being nervous and stops me wasting energy panicking.