Strength without Weight

harringtonp

Hi Guys,

Started doing 2 gym sessions a week about 2 months ago after several years of absence. Focusing on squats and deadlifts (do 4 different variants of these each session) with some upper body exercises. All free weights.

Question is if you're wanting to get stronger but put on as little weight as possible how many repetitions per exercise are you looking at ?

And what is the typical weight gain that one might expect to see after 2-3 months coming from a long break of weights ?

reklamos

Weight gain depends on your calorie intake. Eat less than you use and you'll be losing weight. Eat more and you gain. I think it depends on genetics how much muscle you can gain but it is much harder to gain muscle than fat. If you gain pound of weight a week than it is definitely not muscle
If you want to get stronger have a look at stronglifts 5x5. Easy to follow and I would think it would suit well a person who was not lifting for 2years as a starting point.

rowanh

High intensity low volume, 531 is a good program for strength. Id say how much you are eating would have as much effect on your weight as much as sets and reps.

Mellor

harringtonp wrote: »

Question is if you're wanting to get stronger but put on as little weight as possible how many repetitions per exercise are you looking at ?

And what is the typical weight gain that one might expect to see after 2-3 months coming from a long break of weights ?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding but this sounds contradictory to me.
You want to get stronger whilst putting on as little weights as possible. That's fine.
But then you go on to asked about typical weight gain you should expect to see. If you aren't trying to put on weight, then you should expect to see close to 0kg in 2-3 weeks

harringtonp

Thanks guys, yes I want stronger legs but also to see as little extra on the scales as possible. Thats the aim.

For the last couple of winters when I transition from summer bike training to winter bike training I'd see my weight go up by about 1kg but no more, the extra weight being largely due to less training and therefore less calories burnt. The 1kg or so comes off again when going from winter to summer.

This time round in 2 months I'm up about 2kg and my eating habits have not changed. I suspect 1kg of that is due to summer to winter transition but the other kg is down to the weights. I'm not sure though which was why I have checked here, I'm wondering it others could give feedback on typical weight gain seen in similar circumstances ?

Main focus of the weights session is to develop power in the legs so that those 5-10 second bike sprints are quicker but if I have loads of extra kgs I'll know about it on the hills. So its a balancing act.

While in the gym I also do some upper body stuff for all round balance and to pad the session out to an hour (and make use of the visit)

b_mac2

Your weight is fluctuating by +/- 1kg and you think it's because of them reasons?

Laaaaaad...

My weight would fluctuate by 5kg throughout the day. You're thinking way too much about this.

ford2600

Not what you asked but came across the bit below it last year.

From my experience of strength/mobility training the benefits can't be limited to power/weight, cycling/human body is more complicated than that.

The primary benefit for me was improved core strength/flexibility allowing me to go same speed for less effort or faster for same effort.

Might not be an issue for you but I spend very long days in saddle and on 16hr days I'm as agile getting off the bike as on since I started gym work last winter.

I'm definitely more powerful on flat/rolling roads.

What I found last year is underneath


Taken from Bodybuilding.com article on Strength Training and Endurance Athletes.

Research exploring the effects of strength training on cycling has been a 'mixed bag'. We have the study carried out by Ben Hurley and his co-workers at the University of Maryland, in which 10 healthy men took up strength training (bench presses, knee extensions, knee flexions, press-ups, leg presses, lat pulldowns, arm curls, parallel squats and bent-knee sit-ups) for 12 weeks, while eight other healthy men served as controls.

After 12 weeks, the strength-trained men improved their endurance while cycling at an intensity of 75 percent V02 max by 33 percent and also lifted lactate threshold (the single best predictor of endurance performance) by 12 percent.

However, these men were untrained prior to the study and did not carry out regular cycling workouts during the research, so the applicability of these findings to serious athletes is questionable.

University Of Illinois At Chicago Study ///
The study carried out by R. C. Hickson and his colleagues at the University of Illinois at Chicago was considerably more practical. In that investigation, eight experienced cyclists added three days per week of strength training to their regular endurance routines over a 10-week period.


Barbell Squat

The strength training was incredibly simple, focusing on parallel squats (five sets of five reps per workout), knee extensions (three sets of five reps), knee flexions (3 x 5), and calf raises (3 x 25), all with fairly heavy resistance. The only progression utilized in the program involved the amount of resistance, which increased steadily as strength improved.

Cyclists Strength Training
Barbell Squat Barbell Squat
Barbell Squat
5 sets of 5 reps
Leg Extensions Leg Extensions
Leg Extensions
3 sets of 5 reps
Seated Leg Curl Seated Leg Curl
Seated Leg Curl
3 sets of 5 reps
Standing Calf Raises Standing Calf Raises
Standing Calf Raises
3 sets of 25 reps
Printable Page PDF Document

Nonetheless, the strength training had a profoundly positive impact on cycling performance. After 10 weeks, the cyclists improved their 'short-term endurance' (their ability to continue working at a high intensity) by about 11 percent, and they also expanded the amount of time they could pedal at an intensity of 80% V02 max from 71-to-85 minutes, about a 20-percent upgrade.

However, a different study showed that strength training could also have a profoundly negative effect on cycling performance. In that piece of research, carried out by James Home and his colleagues at the University of Cape Town in South Africa, seven endurance cyclists who averaged about 200 kilometers of cycling per week incorporated three strength training sessions into their normal routine.

The strength program was relatively unsophisticated, consisting of three sets of up to eight repetitions of hamstring curls, leg presses and quadriceps extensions using fairly heavy resistance.

After six weeks, the strength training produced rather impressive gains in strength (the gains averaged a bit more than 20 percent). However, actual cycling performances were not improved; in fact, they were worse than before the strength training was undertaken! 40-K race times slowed from 59-to-62 minutes, and the strength-trained cyclists complained of feeling 'heavy' and tired during their workouts - and even reduced their volume of endurance training because of the excessive fatigue.

Why did Hickson's study uncover clear advantages associated with strength training for cyclists, while Home's work revealed the reverse?

No one knows for certain, which means it's time for a personal observation. It seems likely that the strength training carried out by Hickson's charges improved fatigue resistance in their muscles, permitting them to persist longer both during high-intensity tests of endurance and prolonged efforts at a submaximal (80% V02max) intensity.

Meanwhile, it's likely that Home's added strength training sent his athletes into the overtrained - or at least 'stale' - state. The feelings of fatigue which originated shortly after the beginning of strength training suggests that the athletes were simply doing too much work.

Home's cyclists averaged 124 miles of weekly riding when they started their strength training, while Hickson's athletes were logging considerably fewer miles, so one might be tempted to suggest that strength training can produce major benefits for low-mileage cyclists but does much less for experienced, higher-mileage competitors who have already built up considerable strength merely by riding.

That certainly wouldn't be an unreasonable thought, but it doesn't explain why strength training per se would actually slow down endurance performances, as it seemed to do for Home's performers (no other study has shown this). It seems likely that Home's added strength training was simply the straw that broke the camel's back; it wasn't the strength training which slowed the cyclists but the total amount of work they had to complete.

harringtonp

b_mac2 wrote: »

Your weight is fluctuating by +/- 1kg and you think it's because of them reasons?

Laaaaaad...

My weight would fluctuate by 5kg throughout the day. You're thinking way too much about this.

Yes, a friend of mine once said he ****e more than that in one go but I do weigh myself a few times a week first thing in the morning and its not an imaginary kilo. Its definitely there and I'm just wondering how many more may be there when I finished the program of weights sometime in February.

Alf Veedersane

harringtonp wrote: »

I suspect 1kg of that is due to summer to winter transition but the other kg is down to the weights.

You won't have put on 1kg of muscle in 2 months. I wouldn't worry about the weights putting on unnecessary weight.

harringtonp

ford2600 wrote: »

Not what you asked but came across the bit below it last year.

From my experience of strength/mobility training the benefits can't be limited to power/weight, cycling/human body is more complicated than that.

The primary benefit for me was improved core strength/flexibility allowing me to go same speed for less effort or faster for same effort.

Might not be an issue for you but I spend very long days in saddle and on 16hr days I'm as agile getting off the bike as on since I started gym work last winter.

I'm definitely more powerful on flat/rolling roads.

What I found last year is underneath

..
..

Very interesting. The leg weights program I am following was part of PHD research a guy in Limerick did to examine the benefits of a leg strength program for cyclists and runners. A friend of mine was one of the guinea pigs and the results were quite good. Difference is he had personal supervision by the PHD student for each session where as I'm feeling my way as I go along. Along with the 2 weights sessions, I'm doing 3 50-60 minute Turbo sessions replacing one of the Turbo sessions with a structured weekend spin when weather permits.

harringtonp

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

You won't have put on 1kg of muscle in 2 months. I wouldn't worry about the weights putting on unnecessary weight.

Thanks, that is the sort of feedback and opinion I am looking for. It can be easy to assume that one is getting heavier due to muscle when working out rather than extra calories going in.

And this is what I'm trying to get a handle on. Presumably as you train and get stronger some extra weight has to go on due to muscle and its trying to figure out how much.

harringtonp

For example has anybody here measured both their body fat percentage and weight before and after a weights program ?

Alf Veedersane

harringtonp wrote: »

Thanks, that is the sort of feedback and opinion I am looking for. It can be easy to assume that one is getting heavier due to muscle when working out rather than extra calories going in.

And this is what I'm trying to get a handle on. Presumably as you train and get stronger some extra weight has to go on due to muscle and its trying to figure out how much.

You'll need to be in a calorie surplus to build muscle.

Mellor

b_mac2 wrote: »

My weight would fluctuate by 5kg throughout the day. You're thinking way too much about this.

That's true, you'll flucuate over the course of every day.
but that doesn't mean you can't notice gains as small as 1kg. Why would it.
There's a huge difference between a 1kg difference between two random weighings, and a consistent trend over a few weeks.

harringtonp wrote: »

Thanks, that is the sort of feedback and opinion I am looking for. It can be easy to assume that one is getting heavier due to muscle when working out rather than extra calories going in.

Basic law of physics (physiques ), mass/energy cannot be created or destroyed, only changed form from one form to another.

You can't get heavier without extra calories going in. Working out simply determines if its fat or muscle gain.

If you've put on weight, its because you've been eating surplus calories. As you do every winter.

Presumably as you train and get stronger some extra weight has to go on due to muscle

Incorrect assumption.
You can get stronger without adding muscle.
While muscle mass is obviously a huge factor in strength, its not the only one.

harringtonp wrote: »

For example has anybody here measured both their body fat percentage and weight before and after a weights program ?

Yeah I've done that in the past.

harringtonp

Mellor wrote: »

Yeah I've done that in the past.

Still got any figures you can share here ?

Mellor

harringtonp wrote: »

Still got any figures you can share here ?

Unless you are a similar weight to me, following a similar program, and diet its not really relevant.

FWIW, I gained a few kg's muscle, and lost a few kg's of fat. Weight dropped overall. Over a period of months.

Nervous Wreck

b_mac2 wrote: »

Your weight is fluctuating by +/- 1kg and you think it's because of them reasons?

Laaaaaad...

My weight would fluctuate by 5kg throughout the day. You're thinking way too much about this.

I just took a shît and dropped about 4.5kg on the scale.

Mr. CooL ICE

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

I just took a shît and dropped about 4.5kg on the scale.

Should have aimed properly