Advice for helping daughter (4) understand death

Bungy Girl

I hope I am posting in the right forum, if not please advise and I'll repost elsewhere.

My daughter who is 4 and in Montessori/pre-school has suddenly become very upset with the idea of death/dying after one of her friends lost a grandparent (who went to heaven). Neither myself or my husband have any religious beliefs, our daughter is not baptised, and we are hoping to place her in a multi-denominational school. So, she would not be familiar with any religious concepts including god, heaven, angels etc. I would like to ask advice on how to deal with her questions/statements, which so far have included:

Am I going to die ?
I don't want mammy and daddy to die
I don't want to die
Are mammy and daddy going to die ?
Is (pet) going to die ?
And plenty more along these lines.

She has been inconsolable the last couple of nights and all I have been able to say is that yes, people do die, but not until they're really really old and they have lived their life. She is an only child and hasn't lost anyone close. I just want to be able to handle this as best I can without resorting to fairy tales.

Other than this recent 'trauma', she is a very happy, active and smart little girl who can be sensitive (and stubborn, in that she will not be fobbed off).

Appreciate any advice. Thanks.

CasualLiKE

Make it as black and white as possible. Some people believe in an afterlife; some don't. By indicating an acceptance and respect for others’ beliefs, it'll make it easier for your child to choose beliefs different from your own but more comforting to them. A child at that age shouldn't need to know the ins and out of death. Let them come to their own conclusion later on in life.

At least for someone as young as your daughter at least be open to the possibility that some form of continuation of consciousness occurs. We will probably never know until we actually experience it ourselves.

robindch

Bungy Girl wrote: »

[...] how to deal with her questions/statements [...]

My kid had the same questions around the same time - I stuck to a strictly truthful approach - yes, people, animals and plants die, but their bodies go back into ground and their atoms come back as grass, flowers, trees and so on. Wasn't so happy as grass. My kid said that she'd prefer to come back as flowers, but that a tree would be ok too. I also mentioned that one's thoughts (by writing, videos, meeting), friends and family survive death too. And that if she has kids, that her own DNA will survive her death too and populate and dissipate amongst generations to come. She was quite positive about all of these things, though she didn't understand them all at first.

I didn't mention anything about the "afterlife" and on the odd occasion it comes up, I have been known to refer to it as "staying alive after you're dead". My kid's also aware that some people think this happens, but that death is a sensitive topic with most people and some people get upset if it's discussed in a factual way.

Anyhow, yes, it's not an easy topic to discuss, but I found that being truthful helped - in my kid's case anyway.

One other funny thing that happened a couple of weeks ago was on the parents' whatsapp group for her class - she's nine years old and in third class - some parents were moaning about some kids telling others in the class that Santa and the tooth fairy didn't exist - with some parents feeling that it was "magical" to have their kids believe this stuff. Ok, yes, it's certainly "innocent" and sometimes quite funny to see them believing this stuff, but I'm having a hard time finding it "magical". When I asked my kid if she was telling people that Santa didn't exist, she said no, but added that "well, the only people who still believe in Santa are the religious kids" - make of that what you will

Akrasia

The way I explain it, is that everything in the universe is all in a cycle of birth and death. I explain that the universe would be a cold dark place if it wasn't for the big bang, and the first stars had to die to make all the things that made the new stars and the new galaxies, and that we ourselves are made out of the dust of these exploding stars.

It's sad when things come to an end, but nothing ever truly dies, all of the energy and matter continues to exist and to build new things.

I explain that we had ancestors, mammys and daddies from a long time ago who built the world we live in today, and even though they died a long time ago, in a way, they live forever because they became part of us, and the world that they created is the world we live in now.

I tell my kids that when their mammy and daddy get old and eventually die, that we won't be sad, because we'll have been lucky enough to have lived in this amazing world, and we will know that our kids will do a great job in building the new world for the people of the future to enjoy. They are the future, that they are the people who will be building the new world and deciding what the future will bring so the things that they do matter and they should live their life as best they can and enjoy it while it lasts.

Notavirus.exe

Bungy Girl wrote: »

I just want to be able to handle this as best I can without resorting to fairy tales.

I don't think I like your attitude. Religion is based on hope, we can't prove it nor disprove it. So if I was you, I wouldn't push atheism on a child, because I could be wrong and a 4 year old wouldn't like to think that everyone is going to die and that would be the end of everything.

Anyway, moving away from that, I think that you should tell your child about "Heaven". And when she's old enough to think for herself, you can talk to her about what she believes in and what you believe in.

I'm an adult man and despite being religious, I get depressed about the thought of family members dying. I also worry about what happens after death. It affects my everyday life. I can't come to terms with death. Please, don't put that suffering on a 4 year old girl.

Mr. CooL ICE

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

I don't think I like your attitude. Religion is based on hope, we can't prove it nor disprove it. So if I was you, I wouldn't push atheism on a child, because I could be wrong and a 4 year old wouldn't like to think that everyone is going to die and that would be the end of everything.

Anyway, moving away from that, I think that you should tell your child about "Heaven". And when she's old enough to think for herself, you can talk to her about what she believes in and what you believe in.

I'm an adult man and despite being religious, I get depressed about the thought of family members dying. I also worry about what happens after death. It affects my everyday life. I can't come to terms with death. Please, don't put that suffering on a 4 year old girl.

Don't take any of this advice.

If you have issues with death, you shouldn't assume a 4 year old will have the same issues as you.

nozzferrahhtoo

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

I could be wrong and a 4 year old wouldn't like to think that everyone is going to die and that would be the end of everything.

I tend, with few exceptions, to be more interested in teaching my own children what is true, not what I think they might find a prettier or more palatable state of affairs.

There is no reason at this time to think there is a god. There is no reason at this time to think there is anything after death. So I am not about to sell either of these nonsenses to my children just because you personally have an issue coping with the concept of death.

I also would not rush, like you do, to project adult weaknesses onto children. They are a lot more robust and labile than you think. And you will find with many things adults having issues coping with later in life... they can be the result of being molly coddled needlessly about it as a child when in fact as a child may have been the time in their life they were most equipped to deal with it and assimilate it.

OP I see no reason to subscribe to the Virus's advice here. There is no reason I can see to sell things like "Heaven" to your child. The concept of death is a massive new subject to parse and assimilate for a child. It can be the uncertainty of this massive new subject more than the concept or fact or fear of death itself that makes them temporarily "inconsolable".

What your child needs is what you appear to have already been offering. That you are THERE during this period of transition and assimilation of new knowledge, and that you answer the questions you are asked. Selling lies to them as a quick fix temporary fix to ease the transition will likely not help, as Notavirus demonstrates given despite a belief in religion and things like an after life.... the fairy tale has afforded them no consolation.

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

I can't come to terms with death. Please, don't put that suffering on a 4 year old girl.

Perhaps seek professional help in coming to terms with it. Many people have and there is no reason to prolong your own suffering, let alone needlessly worry about it in others.

Notavirus.exe

Nicolas Cage wrote: »

Don't take any of this advice.

If you have issues with death, you shouldn't assume a 4 year old will have the same issues as you.

Read the OP's post again, it appears the 4 year old already does have issues.

I stand by what I said. I can think for myself. I can't have someone cuddle me and tell me everything is gonna be sunshine and rainbows when I'm dead. It's easier to convince a 4 year old something than it is to convince an adult.

I'm depressed because I'm having doubts about my beliefs. I can understand what that child is going through.

OP, you can tell your 4 year old how the universe was created in a big explosion and that we are here by chance and we are just hairless apes or you can take my advice and comfort your daughter by telling her that there is an afterlife and then let her learn about the universe in school and let her make up her own mind when she is old enough.

Final advice: If your 4 year old is upset then tell her what she wants to hear. It's hard for children to comprehend death, I think she's very young to be asking these things. If you don't want your daughter to be religious then try your best to explain that death = death.

nozzferrahhtoo

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

Read the OP's post again, it appears the 4 year old already does have issues.

I wonder if maybe you should take your own advice and read the OP again. Because quite clearly in it the OP says "I just want to be able to handle this as best I can without resorting to fairy tales." and your response was to recommend fairy tales. Exactly what the OP said they do not want.

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

I can't have someone cuddle me and tell me everything is gonna be sunshine and rainbows when I'm dead. It's easier to convince a 4 year old something than it is to convince an adult.

So because it is easier to sell a lie to children, that is your basis for wanting to sell the lie to children. I think your premise is fallacious from the outset. There is no good reason to sell the "sunshine and rainbows" to anyone, adult or child, where there is no reason to think it true.

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

I'm depressed because I'm having doubts about my beliefs. I can understand what that child is going through.

So you yourself have found no consolation from the concept of death in your religious beliefs. Yet you still want to recommend them to the OP as the way to go. That hardly adds up very well does it. It was a failed project in your case so why recommend it to another.

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

OP, you can tell your 4 year old how the universe was created in a big explosion and that we are here by chance and we are just hairless apes

Or the OP can find the hope and romance and awe and excitement that actually does exist in this world, this universe and this life and offer that to his child. Just because he does not want to sell her fairy tales, does not mean that the only other alternative is to sell the cold, hard, empty facts of life to a child either. There is enough magic and wonder and hope in the world, without fairy tales, to have to make it one extreme or the other like you propose.

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

you can take my advice and comfort your daughter by telling her that there is an afterlife and then let her learn about the universe in school and let her make up her own mind when she is old enough.

Yea as you said it is easier to sell lies to children than adults. So it is very much a theist MO to sell the idea that it is better to install the lies early, and let them come to the facts later, than the other way around. Because they, like I assume you, know that once the Religious Firmware is installed on the Young Minds Next Top Computer, it is harder to remove later. Get them while they are young huh?

If my children end up religious later in life, that is fine by me. I will debate them on it if they ask me to, or I will leave them alone if they do not. But I certainly will not be facilitating the installation of this lie early just because theists know it works.

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

Final advice: If your 4 year old is upset then tell her what she wants to hear.

Terrible advice. While there are _some_ exceptions where this might be a good thing to do, I see no reason in general why lying about reality to a child just to make them feel better is the right thing to do.

And as I said before children are not as fragile as your rhetoric would likely have us believe. Sure, they go through periods of uncertainty and fear.... which is what the OP is experiencing now.... but they grow around it and out of it.... and they are the stronger for it. And selling them lies to temporarily paper mache over a temporary pain is to deny them that experience and that growth.

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

It's hard for children to comprehend death, I think she's very young to be asking these things.

I do not agree at all. Do you have kids yourself? My daughter was very early able to comprehend death. I remember when she was not more than 2 I made some joke about being so hungry I could eat her. She replied "Dont do that daddy, then I will be gone. Then there would be no more me again". And I have seen her comprehension of it go up, not down, from there.

As with your overestimation of children's fragility, I think you also entirely underestimate their comprehension abilities. In fact with many things they are actually MORE capable of comprehension that older children or adults due to not having all kinds of expectations and filters and preconceptions installed.

As parents when our children go through TEMPORARY periods of stress, uncertainty or fear we do feel compelled to say or do whatever it takes to "quick fix" the solution and put their smile back on their face. But at what cost I wonder? I prefer to put in the hard work and work through things like that with them, without the easy cop out solutions.

hairycakes

We went through 3 deaths with my daughter by the time she was 4. Thankfully none since then. One was my grandfather, another my grand uncle (we were really close to both and saw them almost daily) and the last, her grandmother on her father's side. All three were sick prior to dying so it probably made it a little easier to explain. She happened to be a little bit sick herself at the time of the first death and our doctor was really helpful with advice on how to deal with it.

She told me to avoid saying things like he's just gone to sleep but won't wake up (can frighten the child when they go to sleep) or that they are gone to heaven (purely due to confusion for the child seeing the body or being told the person is in the coffin and yet they are in heaven too, not for religious reasons). It's better to explain that some people get little sick and they'll get better with medicine and some other people get big sick and the person can't get better and they die. If my daughter hears of people being sick even now she'll ask me are they big sick or little sick and when she hears little sick, she's happy.

We would be relatively religious but to be honest we haven't really talked about heaven. I had told her that every time you think of the person that they are still alive in your heart. She picks out stars that she sees as her loved ones looking down on her and it seems to give her comfort. If she's asking about the idea of heaven and you're uncomfortable with it, maybe the best option is to explain that some people believe that it is what happens when you die but other people think x happens and others think y happens and that no one really knows. Then ask her what she thinks happens because that will inform you as to what idea gives her most comfort and she's happiest with. I'd say roll with that for now and discuss it again when she's a little older or when she experiences death again.

Akrasia

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

Read the OP's post again, it appears the 4 year old already does have issues.

I stand by what I said. I can think for myself. I can't have someone cuddle me and tell me everything is gonna be sunshine and rainbows when I'm dead. It's easier to convince a 4 year old something than it is to convince an adult.

I'm depressed because I'm having doubts about my beliefs. I can understand what that child is going through.

OP, you can tell your 4 year old how the universe was created in a big explosion and that we are here by chance and we are just hairless apes or you can take my advice and comfort your daughter by telling her that there is an afterlife and then let her learn about the universe in school and let her make up her own mind when she is old enough.

Final advice: If your 4 year old is upset then tell her what she wants to hear. It's hard for children to comprehend death, I think she's very young to be asking these things. If you don't want your daughter to be religious then try your best to explain that death = death.

Honestly, this is terrible terrible advice!

Telling someone 'what they want to hear' solves nothing. Reality is reality, sooner or later we will all come face to face with it.

Telling people that there is an afterlife raises way more questions than it ever answers, and all that baggage is what harms people.

I remember when I was a child, I used to be terrified of dying without having said my prayers or gone to confession in case I was in God's bad books on the moment I died.

As soon as I realised that it was all just a lie that we had been told to 'comfort us' when we are grieving for a loved one or scared of our own mortality, I felt a weight lifted from my shoulders.

As Epicurus said 'Death is nothing to us, since when we exist there is no death, and when there is death we do not exist'

Shrap

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

Final advice: If your 4 year old is upset then tell her what she wants to hear. It's hard for children to comprehend death, I think she's very young to be asking these things. If you don't want your daughter to be religious then try your best to explain that death = death.

Have you got kids? Serious question, because this is the last thing a parent should do, if the thing she wants to hear is neither realistic nor something the parent him/herself believes.

Professional advice coming here on dealing with kids not processing some of their emotions very well (through me, from one of Ireland's foremost Child Psychologists - I have a young teen who has lifelong emotional and behavioural difficulties):

a) Acknowledge your 4yr old's feelings, in age appropriate terms and say out loud that you can see/hear what way she is feeling (name the emotion). "I see you're feeling a bit worried/sad hon - that's ok. Talking about things that worry you/make you sad means I can help you with them."

b) Tell her how you feel about your answers to these questions - like the things Robin was saying, even if she doesn't quite understand the answers, it will help her to hear how you feel (again, name your emotions).

c) Ask her about how her friend feels about her Gran dying. "She's sad" will probably be the answer, I would think. Then tell her how nice it is that she cares for her friend and how nice it is that her friend cares for her Gran. Talk about how her friend will start to feel less sad in a little while and how she will always remember her Gran and she won't be sad any more soon.

My kids went through the deaths of some pets before their beloved Great Aunt, thankfully, and your little girl is going through this with her friend. All I can say is that since then my boys never needed any happy-clappy gone to God/afterlife stuff because I was very matter of fact with them and they took my cue from how I felt (even my youngest with his emotional regulation difficulties). Good luck!

Notavirus.exe

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

...

Ok, I'm going to be honest right now. The OP wants to explain death to their daughter, I began to babble on about religion. You guys are right. I don't have children, so I am not experienced like other people here. I shouldn't have posted here.

OP, good luck.

Shrap

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

Ok, I'm going to be honest right now. The OP wants to explain death to their daughter, I began to babble on about religion. You guys are right. I don't have children, so I am not experienced like other people here. I shouldn't have posted here.

OP, good luck.

Well done. Hope you get some peace from your fears soon Notavirus.

smokingman

I remember reading something on this forum a few years ago around the time I had my first kid who's now 6 that stayed with me.
It may have been from a forum regular and if anyone recognises it, please take the credit.
What they said was in relation to how they explain what other people think about what happens after you're dead to a child.
To paraphrase; "Everyone is in a big tent and only people who die leave the tent. Now some people in the tent think there is nothing outside and others think there's different things but at the end of the day, no-one inside can ever look at what's outside. At this, you turn to your kid and ask, what do you think is more important? Getting on with the people in the tent or fighting over what you just don't know?".
I went down this route with my kid and borrowed from Carl Sagan in telling the little fella all about how we came from stardust and how, when we die, we go back to being stardust.

I think that particular way of explaining death is far more wonderous than trying to explain a concept of heaven.

oldrnwisr

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

I don't think I like your attitude.

I'm sure the OP is not overly impressed with yours either.

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

Religion is based on hope, we can't prove it nor disprove it.

No, to be correct religion is based on false hope supported by stories which are either demonstrably false or unsupported by reason or evidence.
The fact that the truth state of a claim indeterminate (i.e. that you can't prove or disprove it) doesn't mean that both sides are equally likely. The one making the claim has the burden of proof, not the person who rejects the unfounded claim.

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

So if I was you, I wouldn't push atheism on a child, because I could be wrong and a 4 year old wouldn't like to think that everyone is going to die and that would be the end of everything.

Atheism is a lack of belief, so I'm curious to know how you could possibly push a lack of anything on somebody. Atheism is the idea of not pushing anything on your child, no fairy stories or false beliefs.

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

Anyway, moving away from that, I think that you should tell your child about "Heaven". And when she's old enough to think for herself, you can talk to her about what she believes in and what you believe in.

Why? And whose heaven? I presume you mean the Christian heaven. Do you have any actual evidence that your heaven is real? I mean every religion has some position on the continuation of existence after death (it's pretty much the single common factor in all religions). So why tell her about one heaven and not all the others?
Is that really what you want when you die? Heaven? Eternity spent with every alcoholic aunt, every slightly deviant uncle, every boring co-worker?


OP, for what it's worth, I would echo what others have said already. Truth is always the best policy. I would tell her that honestly we don't know what happens after we die and that different people have different beliefs (and you could even go through some of those beliefs with her, I know as a kid I found the mythologies of different cultures hugely fascinating). But I wouldn't tell her about heaven or pretend that there's an afterlife. IMHO it might take longer for her to cope with the idea of death in the short term but in the long term it's going to be more beneficial for her.

nozzferrahhtoo

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

Ok, I'm going to be honest right now. The OP wants to explain death to their daughter, I began to babble on about religion. You guys are right. I don't have children, so I am not experienced like other people here. I shouldn't have posted here. OP, good luck.

Oh I dunno. Having children does not give you any particular insight into children as a whole. Because they are all so _different_ to each other. Having a child does not automatically make me any more right than you on this issue, or my opinions any more valid. Though many parents think having children DOES give them deeper insight on some issues than those with none.... in fact sometimes the opposite can be true.... especially when a parent thinks what is true for their own child.... is true for all.

While I may robustly disagree with much of what you said.... I do not do so because you have no children.... and I certainly do not do so thinking you should never have posted here. Not even sure I could have constructed the posts I did, had I not had yours as a point to coalesce my thoughts around. So if the OP finds anything useful in MY posts.... he has YOUR posts to thank for it

I think the crux of my response to you, to shorten my last two posts down, is that children are a lot more robust and labile and capable of deep comprehension than you give them credit for. And perhaps dealing with concepts like death WHILE they have those attributes will leave them stronger for it in adult life, and not dealing with death as poorly as you describe yourself dealing with it.

Notavirus.exe

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Oh I dunno. Having children does not give you any particular insight into children as a whole. Because they are all so _different_ to each other. Having a child does not automatically make me any more right than you on this issue, or my opinions any more valid. Though many parents think having children DOES give them deeper insight on some issues than those with none.... in fact sometimes the opposite can be true.... especially when a parent thinks what is true for their own child.... is true for all.

While I may robustly disagree with much of what you said.... I do not do so because you have no children.... and I certainly do not do so thinking you should never have posted here.

I think the crux of my response to you, to shorten my last two posts down, is that children are a lot more robust and labile and capable of deep comprehension than you give them credit for. And perhaps dealing with concepts like death WHILE they have those attributes will leave them stronger for it in adult life, and not dealing with death as poorly as you describe yourself dealing with it.

I guess I gave that advice because it was the advice I needed as a child.

From when I was 5 years old to about 12 years old I used to cry almost every night in bed. I knew that everyone I loved was going to die eventually. I cried because I didn't want them to. I wanted them to live forever. I wasn't religious when I was young. I had never really thought about things like that. My parents never knew that I cried about death. I don't remember asking them about it or anything.

I guess I'm religious because the things Christianity teaches me are the things I want to be real.

My life is upside down. I don't know what to think or what to believe. Sometimes I wish that my life would just end. I'm just going to live life and keep telling myself there is an afterlife and everyone I love will be there.

This isn't the place for a depressed, religiously confused idiot to post his sob story, but I just wanted to let you know where I'm coming from. Everyone is different. People can be happy without religion but I can't. I shouldn't push it on other people, I'm sorry.

nozzferrahhtoo

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

My parents never knew that I cried about death. I don't remember asking them about it or anything.

Then from what you describe it is not religious advice you needed at that age. It was for you and your parents to have set up dialog on the issue that was bothering you. And alas that did not happen. It was not religious guidance you needed. It was ANY guidance, and you did not get it. Sorry to hear that. Thankfully for my children and the OPs children, this does not appear to be the issue.

I wish there was a handbook on parenting. Of course a lot of advice in it is going to be generic given the diversity of children and their capabilities and experiences and personalities. But there should be some guidance on things like "At some point your child IS going to start thinking about, and worrying about, death.... so if they have not come to you at a certain stage about it.... perhaps consider going to THEM".

And the OP can learn from your experiences too. So I repeat, dispel any thoughts you had that you should not have posted here. There is great utility in your posts, even if we have disagreed strongly with sections of them.

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

I guess I'm religious because the things Christianity teaches me are the things I want to be real.

There are many atheists who will suggest that you are FAR from alone in that description and that much of religion really is wish fulfillment and wishful thinking.

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

My life is upside down. I don't know what to think or what to believe. Sometimes I wish that my life would just end.

This would appear to ramify the advice I gave earlier that you would do well to consult with a professional on these topics. They can guide you much better than any one here can.

There are however many "conversion" stories on this forum, and on the City Data Forum, in which atheists talk about their transition from religious belief to lack of it. And many of them went through _exactly_ the emotions and turmoil you describe here. Perhaps you can gain some benefit from reading them too.

And there are also threads here and there on topics like "Where do atheists derive their hope and happiness from" which you might gain some inspiration from.

Certainly if religious belief, or the illusion of it, is the only thing preventing you from lying down and giving up on it all.... I would be the last person to wish to divest you of it. I never at any point in my life had religious or deistic notions to lose, I have always been this way, so I have no personal insight into the loss of faith or the "Dark Night of the Soul" of religious doubt to assist you wish.... much as I would love to.

But many people have made such transition and are happy now. Some even saying they are happier now than when they were religious. So perhaps you can draw from them.

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

This isn't the place for a depressed, religiously confused idiot to post his sob story, but I just wanted to let you know where I'm coming from. Everyone is different. People can be happy without religion but I can't. I shouldn't push it on other people, I'm sorry.

Oh I dunno. I can not think of a better place to be a depresses confused religious idiot Many people here have BEEN that themselves. And come out the other end. Some with quite inspirational stories to show for it. IF a religious person came to me at any point expressing their doubts and looking for support.... this is probably the first place I would send them.

Have you watched the Julia Sweeney "one woman stage play" about her transition from religion to no religion? She is pretty down to earth (though her voice is vastly annoying to my ears but my problem not hers) and very honest about how tumultuous it was for her.

I would also recommend the Dan Barker book about how he went from a fervent evangelical pastor to outspoken atheist. As he is also very brutally honest about how painful it was to lose his faith. Because not only did he derive much comfort from it, like you do, but his entire career, social structure, relationships, life.... everything was based on it. So he pretty much lost EVERYTHING In the transition.

Others can probably recommend other support ideas, resources to draw from, or stories and inspiration better than I. I have my uses, but this is not one of them Sorry I can do no more.

IF there is anything I can do or answer or whatever, here or in private, do not even stop to consider hesitating to contact me. I am always here.

Shrap

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

My life is upside down. I don't know what to think or what to believe. Sometimes I wish that my life would just end. I'm just going to live life and keep telling myself there is an afterlife and everyone I love will be there.

This isn't the place for a depressed, religiously confused idiot to post his sob story, but I just wanted to let you know where I'm coming from. Everyone is different. People can be happy without religion but I can't. I shouldn't push it on other people, I'm sorry.

Mate, it's ok. You're not the only one up here struggling emotionally and you certainly won't be the last. I think you're confusing being made happy by something outside yourself, with feeling more comfortable within yourself though.

Similar to you and your (clearly overwhelming at times) imagination at the ages you mention, I used to sit in the car with my parents imagining that they were imposters, who only looked like my parents, and they were stealing me. They never knew why I was shaking in my shoes and in tears. This went on for years. I have passed on this "creativity" to my youngest, and this is a problem for some people. Some of us need some guidance to help cope with regulating our emotions. I got some, my son has some now.....have you thought about talking to someone who knows how to listen properly?

CelticRambler

Bungy Girl wrote: »

She has been inconsolable the last couple of nights and all I have been able to say is that yes, people do die, but not until they're really really old and they have lived their life. She is an only child and hasn't lost anyone close. I just want to be able to handle this as best I can without resorting to fairy tales.

Speaking as the parent of four children, uncle to lots more and also a kind-of-mentor to another lot, you're making a mistake on those two points in bold.

Last one first: the whole point of fairy tales is to explain difficult concepts to young children. That's how we've dealt with them for the last few thousand years, and it still works, or at least it does when they're not totally Disneyfied. Yes, I'm talking about real fairy tales, not religion (which is mostly based on science, but that's a different debate) - Brothers Grimm, Charles Perrault, Hans Christian Andersen.

By the age of four, my children were well used to the idea of wolves being boiled alive, grannies been eaten whole, and sadistic serial killers wandering the woods with poison apples. They've since had to deal with deaths in their wider circle of family and friends and have been able to accept it for what it is without needing counselling. :rolleyes:

Do not tell her that only old people die. That's a bigger lie than anything you might find uncomfortable about heaven and angels. Children die, teenagers die and parents die. You'll do her no favours pretending otherwise.

Children at that age are trying to figure out what's real and certain, and what's makey-uppy and variable. Death is real and certain, so tell it like it is, don't use euphemisms like "going to sleep" and do explain to her that even if you think death is the end, full stop, rot in peace, that there are other people (most other people ) who believe that part of us goes on to live somewhere else or in some other way. Whatever! None of us know for certain, but we'll find out.

FAILSAFE 00

Great bit of comfort for a 4 year old.

Yep.. everyone is going to die. Night now..

I think people are expecting an awful lot from a 4 year old. Their understanding of things evolves. They get a very vague understanding of something and then as time goes by they learn more about it in greater detail.

Let children be children. Stop worrying them.

Cabaal

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

OP, you can tell your 4 year old how the universe was created in a big explosion and that we are here by chance and we are just hairless apes or you can take my advice and comfort your daughter by telling her that there is an afterlife and then let her learn about the universe in school and let her make up her own mind when she is old enough.

There is an afterlife? Got proof?

To say their is an afterlife like you are claiming is like claiming when you die you hang out with snow white and the seven dwarfs.

There is no such proof to suggest this happens....but it would be crazy to think you hang out with a bunch of dwarfs and a women when you die with such certainty.

One idea they op could use is based on actual facts and reality and that is that we are all made of star stuff, the calcium and iron etc that makes us was created from stars.

When we die what makes us...well us goes on and continue's to exist in the universe we live in.

Essentially, what makes us doesn't ever stop existing...it merely moves on and creates everything else around us over decades, centurys, millions and billions of years.

Bungy Girl

Thanks all for your advice, and for taking the time to reply. Some very useful ideas there that I can use to help allay her fears in an age appropriate way. Thanks again.

Pretzill

It's a difficult dilemma perhaps made more difficult OP because of how you deal with it - there is a place for fairy tales there always has been they can offer good tools in a way to describe things to a younger mind but some of them can be confusing and scary too.

Don't underestimate children even at that young age they know their is a finality when someone dies - they hear things pick up on other people's loss. The hardest thing is explaining things that are even inexplicable to us. Like where is granny gone? Etc.

She is young for a big discussion coloured by your own beliefs - at this point all you want to do is stop her worrying about death - All you can do is comfort her tell her your not going anywhere (she is probably more worried about that) and that she will be fine. I lost my uncle at 9 it was my first encounter with losing a loved one and I knew he was gone it worried me that I could lose someone close if I ever dwelt on those feelings.

I talked with my peers and we'd argue what would happen after death (they were religious I wasn't) it made no odds because either scenario wasn't much of a comfort to a confused nine yr old!

She's only four, just give her confidence and comfort.

FortySeven

Personally, when my 4 year old had the same questions Itold her the truth. We all die and that is life. Nobody knows for sure what it means but it happens to us all and the best way is to make the most of the time we all have together. She accepted this right until the point she was forced into a Catholic school and taught about heaven.

It's very common for kids of this age to start grasping the concept of mortality, it is also a very dangerous age to start filling their heads with lies. I don't know why we lie to children, our job is to educate and prepare for modern adult life. We are not very good at it really. Old habits of indoctrination die hard.

Notavirus.exe

Cabaal wrote: »

One idea they op could use is based on actual facts and reality and that is that we are all made of star stuff, the calcium and iron etc that makes us was created from stars.

That's how you would explain everything to a FOUR YEAR OLD?

Hey sweetie. Yes, it's true, everyone will die, including you. That's the end of them forever. There is no Heaven. Do you want to know why? Because human beings came from stars! Hurrah! Don't let human conscience or emotions deceive you. That all happened by chance. And don't let intelligent design deceive you. It may look like it, but it's definitely not true.

I wanted to suggest that the OP teaches their daughter the hope of an afterlife but that would be too confusing for a child. "You might go to Heaven but you might also just not exist". Good luck with that.

I put "it's definitely not true" in bold for a reason. Because that's your attitude. Ok, you atheists may have evidence against God (albeit hard to get) but nobody can prove anything. That's why I want to emphasize HOPE.

This has been going on for too long but this is my final statement: The child can grow up believing in an afterlife. When the child reaches an age where she can think things for herself she can decide whether she still believes or not. Belief is not a life long choice.

robindch

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

Cabaal wrote:

[...] we are all made of star stuff, the calcium and iron etc that makes us was created from stars.

That's how you would explain everything to a FOUR YEAR OLD?

My then-four-year understood it. Ok, I didn't mention the names of the elements or go into too much detail about the life cycle of stars or evolution, but she understood the formation of elements, the continuity of mass/energy and figured out the basics quite easily. And with some carefully-chosen words, she was quite happy with the whole thing and has, so far as I'm aware, no significant fear whatsoever of death - either her own or that of those around her.

Telling her that there's some chance that she'll live forever in a place which seems to me like an eternal, celestial North Korea offers quite the opposite of hope. And that's avoiding the issue of how thoroughly dishonest it is, both emotionally and intellectually, to pretend that it's a realistic possibility to start with.

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

Belief is not a life long choice.

It often is if you get them young enough - as the religious know quite well. Why do you think they expend such efforts to control primary schools?

magicbastarder

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

This has been going on for too long but this is my final statement: The child can grow up believing in an afterlife. When the child reaches an age where she can think things for herself she can decide whether she still believes or not. Belief is not a life long choice.

this also works in the opposite direction.

looking_around

Keep in mind OP, and others.
Children who are lied to are more likely to lie.
http://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/pressrelease/lied_to_children_more_likely_to_cheat_and_lie

Another thing that seems important.
Kids told lies/stories, have a harder time distinguishing fantasy from reality.
http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-28537149

Don't lie to your kids because of "difficult concepts", you're not helping them.

magicbastarder

i was once told by the daughter of a farmer that kids raised on farms usually have a very early and functional understanding of both sex and death.

robindch

magicbastarder wrote: »

i was once told by the daughter of a farmer that kids raised on farms usually have a very early and functional understanding of both sex and death.

Just checked dates and my kid was three years and ten months when she first came across death, on a fishing trip in West Cork. We got going on sex - ahem - three months later when she asked where baby deer came from (then cows, dogs, cats then eventually humans) - on a trip to the Black Forest. Again, no great problems with either of the concepts and was able to link them back to humans without any difficulty or embarrassment of any kind.

mickrock

robindch wrote: »

My kid had the same questions around the same time - I stuck to a strictly truthful approach - yes, people, animals and plants die, but their bodies go back into ground and their atoms come back as grass, flowers, trees and so on. Wasn't so happy as grass. My kid said that she'd prefer to come back as flowers, but that a tree would be ok too. I also mentioned that one's thoughts (by writing, videos, meeting), friends and family survive death too. And that if she has kids, that her own DNA will survive her death too and populate and dissipate amongst generations to come. She was quite positive about all of these things, though she didn't understand them all at first.

These may have been comforting ideas for your daughter but they imply a kind of continuity and even immortality.

Returning to the earth, being remembered and having descendants give the impression that we somehow carry on, rather than that death is the complete, total end of the self.

It sounds like a kind of reincarnation or afterlife in a different guise.

Akrasia

mickrock wrote: »

These may have been comforting ideas for your daughter but they imply a kind of continuity and even immortality.

Returning to the earth, being remembered and having descendants give the impression that we somehow carry on, rather than that death is the complete, total end of the self.

It sounds like a kind of reincarnation or afterlife in a different guise.

Not really though. For me, it represents a belonging, and despite being a part of a much bigger universe, knowing that the things we do matter in their own way.

People have a psychological aversion to doing pointless busy work

There have been studies where people have been asked to do some work, like sorting out coins, and at the end, for one group, the researcher just pours all the sorted coins back into the same bag they started in, and another group who had their coins taken away in their sorted bags

Guess which group was more satisfied with their day, even though they both spent the time doing exactly the same thing.

People want to know that the things we do makes a difference. This is where it is helpful to show that even after we die, parts of us live on, through our accomplishments, and through our offspring and in the memories of families and friends.

It doesn't imply that we'll be able to appreciate any of this after our lives are ended, but it gives us more comfort during the time when we are alive. (and the difference between this kind of comfort, and a religious one, is that this is honest and based on reality)

Michael OBrien

Bungy Girl wrote: »

Thanks all for your advice, and for taking the time to reply. Some very useful ideas there that I can use to help allay her fears in an age appropriate way. Thanks again.

The idea of death itself, as something fearful, should be tackled too. It can also offer an opportunity for positive moral and ethical behaviour.
If one recognises that they have a limited time with others, then that time is precious, therefore maximising the joy and quality of that time is paramount.
Liken it to a party where friends may leave at any time. You don't know when they may leave, or you may have to, so make the most of it while you are there.

Personally I was raised on a farm, so death was all around me, even early on, and my family raised me catholic, so hell and heaven were part of the 'normal' understanding of death, and it only made death FAR FAR worse.

As a young teen (don't recall exact age) I remember hearing a priest give a sermon about the risk of 'killing' your soul and not going to heaven (or hell but that was not mentioned), and I remember having hope for the first time. The idea of killing your soul was the most amazing thing ever, no afterlife meant I had hope again.

From reading the bible, god was obviously a monster so heaven was a horrible fate and hell was not much better. I truly believed it all, I just was intelligent enough to recognise how horrible it was going to be.

An afterlife was so awful I suffered depression for years. However that depression evaporated slowly as I realised that christianity was false, and finally at the start of 2011 I realised I was an atheist. I was quite angry at the lies I was told for decades by those that were supposed to love me.

I found far more joy in living as an atheist than I ever did as a christian, where I was master of my own fate and not condemned to a fate far worse than death that I had no way of escaping.

Death to me is simply a peaceful stop. An afterlife would be unbearable.

robindch

mickrock wrote: »

It sounds like a kind of reincarnation or afterlife in a different guise.

Yes, except that one's conscience dies, and that what I have said is true.

witchgirl26

Having seen my nephew struggle with my father's death, one piece of advice I would give is try to keep it simple and maybe don't go for the giant explanations. Now god was used in the explanation to my nephew as his mother is quite religious but I don't think that changes it. Think of follow up questions that might come from it. My nephew was told that grandad went to heaven. That was fine for a bit until he saw grandad's car and asked how he got to heaven if his car was still there. Same with explanation of a graveyard - it's a type of park where people go to remember someone who has died. I don't think you have to go into the fact that their body is under it. That would have just freaked out my nephew I know!

I remember having death explained to me quite young (my family are all a bit older so lost people at a young age). I know heaven was mentioned but the main gist was that yes, everyone does die and it means you can't see them anymore but you can always remember them and remember the fun that you had with them. But that it won't help to worry about people dying because that won't stop it or make you feel better.

OP if your daughter is still upset about it maybe consider getting one of those worry-eater soft toys that kids write their worries on a piece of paper & the toy "eats" it. Heard of it helping a few kids.

haveringchick

Sadly not everyone is old when they die so you don't want to get caught up in an untruth by telling your 4 year old that
I'd imagine that the best thing to do is tell her that you don't have all the answers (you don't) that no one has all the answers (they don't) but that she, you, her other parent and so on are healthy and well right now and looking forward to the holidays, that yes, everybody dies IN THE END. But we don't dwell on it because life is wonderful and we try to enjoy every day while we are here and be kind to everyone we meet
Of course loads of hugs cuddles and kisses
I would resist the temptation to use this as an opportunity to demonstrate your atheism
The bereaved child is enjoying the comfort of her family's belief system
You don't want your child to try and contradict that

Shrap

haveringchick wrote: »

I would resist the temptation to use this as an opportunity to demonstrate your atheism

What? What are you trying to say about the OP's parenting here? You think she's "tempted" to act in any way other than the most comforting way she can towards her daughter's fears? What an extraordinarily insulting comment. You should be ashamed of yourself.

CelticRambler

Shrap wrote: »

What? What are you trying to say about the OP's parenting here? You think she's "tempted" to act in any way other than the most comforting way she can towards her daughter's fears? What an extraordinarily insulting comment. You should be ashamed of yourself.

It's a valid observation. The OP is finding out that there are limits to what any parent can teach or not teach their own child. Her daughter is at an age now where she will be taught about life by every other child she comes in contact with and their parents too.

In this case, it sounds like the OP has been wrong-footed because she has never discussed death with her daughter. Now not only has her daughter been introduced to the concept by someone else, but has also been told that Heaven exists. Seeing as the girl is really bothered by the concept of death, Haveringchick is correct in saying that this isn't the time to get sidetracked by a talk about religion/faith/morality.

Obviously with the OP's disparaging reference to "fairy tales" there are tough times ahead for her, when other children in the playground start telling her daughter about other imaginary creatures, like Saint Nicholas/Santa, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy ... and a few years later, the same ones then telling her that they don't exist! :pac:

Parenting is all about anticipating, and preparing your children for what is to come, not playing catch-up.

Shrap

CelticRambler wrote: »

It's a valid observation. The OP is finding out that there are limits to what any parent can teach or not teach their own child. Her daughter is at an age now where she will be taught about life by every other child she comes in contact with and their parents too.

So atheist parents should just sit back and let other children and their parents inform their children on life and death? Don't be ridiculous.

In this case, it sounds like the OP has been wrong-footed because she has never discussed death with her daughter. Now not only has her daughter been introduced to the concept by someone else, but has also been told that Heaven exists. Seeing as the girl is really bothered by the concept of death, Haveringchick is correct in saying that this isn't the time to get sidetracked by a talk about religion/faith/morality.

There are few people here (in fact I can't see one) who have suggested having an indepth discussion with a 4yr old about religion, never mind faith and morality. The daughter has been told that heaven exists as ONE theory of what happens when people die, but parents often have to gently and appropriately correct a child's understanding of something when they pick up a theory from friends. She has been introduced to the fact that death happens, by a friend's Gran dying. This is normal. An atheist speaking with their child in an age appropriate way about death is ALSO normal. It's a conversation all parents have with their children - religious people bring in their religious beliefs, atheists bring in their own beliefs. Simple.

Parenting is all about anticipating, and preparing your children for what is to come, not playing catch-up.

Precisely why atheist parents do not teach kids what they themselves don't believe, often with some exceptions like Santa and the tooth fairy. These are relatively harmless concepts on a par with fairy tales, that are not related to a child's understanding of life and death. Although, my youngest was disgusted that I'd lied to him about Santa, until I reminded him of all the extra pressies he'd had because of the lie.

Mr. CooL ICE

This is a summary of what the OP has been advised so far:

Don't lie to your child

Lie to your child

Don't lie to your child

Lie to your child

Don't lie to your child

Lie to your child

Also, "demonstrating" atheism and "pushing" atheism on a child? You would swear that being atheist is a recent phenomenon by these sort of comments.

I am not a parent, but I can only offer advice that makes sense; don't lie to your child and when it comes to to the unknown, teach them what you believe to be true.

challengemaster

Nicolas Cage wrote: »

Also, "demonstrating" atheism and "pushing" atheism on a child? You would swear that being atheist is a recent phenomenon by these sort of comments.

It's also rather hilarious, because every child is inherently atheist until a religion is pushed onto them.

haveringchick

Shrap wrote: »

What? What are you trying to say about the OP's parenting here? You think she's "tempted" to act in any way other than the most comforting way she can towards her daughter's fears? What an extraordinarily insulting comment. You should be ashamed of yourself.

I don't agree with you that its an insulting comment and no I'm not one bit ashamed of myself and I have no idea why you would single out one line and overreact to this extent.
We want our children to take something away from every experience they have be it a negative or a positive situation.
Just as religious belief led parents of a child will use such a situation to reinforce the idea of heaven and afterlife in a comforting way, a non religious parent may see an opportunity to explain the finality of death as they see it.
This, in my opinion, doesn't work in such small kids.

kylith

CelticRambler wrote: »

It's a valid observation. The OP is finding out that there are limits to what any parent can teach or not teach their own child. Her daughter is at an age now where she will be taught about life by every other child she comes in contact with and their parents too.

In this case, it sounds like the OP has been wrong-footed because she has never discussed death with her daughter. Now not only has her daughter been introduced to the concept by someone else, but has also been told that Heaven exists. Seeing as the girl is really bothered by the concept of death, Haveringchick is correct in saying that this isn't the time to get sidetracked by a talk about religion/faith/morality.

.

Absolute balderdash. If the OP was a Hindu would you be telling them not to 'demonstrate/push their Hinduism' because the child had already been told about Christian heaven?

iguana

There is a great old episode of Sesame Street that deals fantastically with death. PBS made it after the actor who played Mr Hooper on the show died and they decided to deal with his death in a way that would help children understand and deal with the concept. The characters talked about how much they love him and will miss him and how death can make you feel sad but is part of life. There are parts of it on Youtube and it's mature, insightful and loving as the actors were all dealing with the death of their colleague so the emotion in the episode is very real. It was written in a way that the idea was that children would watch it with their parents and discuss it afterwards.

CelticRambler

kylith wrote: »

Absolute balderdash. If the OP was a Hindu would you be telling them not to 'demonstrate/push their Hinduism' because the child had already been told about Christian heaven?

No, the situation wouldn't arise. Parents who have even a moderate religious belief start to instill that belief into their children at a very early age - well before the child can fully understand what's going on. (Some call that indoctrination, others call it passing on family/cultural values)

Not having a religious belief means there is nothing to instill. Then, one day, someone comes along in the ordinary run of normal life - e.g. when a person dies - and makes a reference to a faith system. If the situation was a Hindu vs. Christian interpretation of "what comes next" it's not a problem - the parent just explains that they're two versions of the same belief.

The OP does not have that advantage. Like it or not, any faith system has a stronger appeal to developing minds than none, and like it or not, her daughter is surrounded by hundreds of thousands of people who believe in some version of Heaven. That puts the OP in a very difficult position - she can offer one explanation: You live, you die, you rot; that's it ... oh, and I'm going to die too - get used to it. Everyone else can offer the girl an alternative: we die, we go to another place where we'll be happy; you won't see us, but we'll be able to see you ...

That's a heck of a better offer for the child, but if the OP tries to dismiss that notion now, it'll create a tension for the child: does she side with her parents or with everyone else - the kind of tension that's not supposed to creep into the relationship until the teenage years. The child's problem is dealing with the biological fact of death; now is not the time to be telling her that she/her family is different to the rest of the community.

Shrap

haveringchick wrote: »

Just as religious belief led parents of a child will use such a situation to reinforce the idea of heaven and afterlife in a comforting way, a non religious parent may see an opportunity to explain the finality of death as they see it.
This, in my opinion, doesn't work in such small kids.

The insult to the OP's parenting derives from your clearly expressed thinking that any parent, religious or otherwise, would use such an opportunity to reinforce anything other than comfort.

Perhaps you can't imagine the concept of an atheist parent being able to offer comfort to a small child with their atheist opinion of death, brought to the child in an age appropriate way. Not only in my opinion, but in my practice of parenting, this does work in such small kids. Others have also said so. You seem to be in the business of claiming that in this instance only a lie will cause a child to be comforted?

haveringchick

Shrap wrote: »

The insult to the OP's parenting derives from your clearly expressed thinking that any parent, religious or otherwise, would use such an opportunity to reinforce anything other than comfort.

Perhaps you can't imagine the concept of an atheist parent being able to offer comfort to a small child with their atheist opinion of death, brought to the child in an age appropriate way. Not only in my opinion, but in my practice of parenting, this does work in such small kids. Others have also said so. You seem to be in the business of claiming that in this instance only a lie will cause a child to be comforted?

Have you not read the whole of my post, or did you speed read it until you found something to be angry outraged and offended by?
Seriously, defensive much?

endacl

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

I don't think I like your attitude. Religion is based on hope, we can't prove it nor disprove it. So if I was you, I wouldn't push atheism on a child, because I could be wrong and a 4 year old wouldn't like to think that everyone is going to die and that would be the end of everything.

Anyway, moving away from that, I think that you should tell your child about "Heaven". And when she's old enough to think for herself, you can talk to her about what she believes in and what you believe in.

I'm an adult man and despite being religious, I get depressed about the thought of family members dying. I also worry about what happens after death. It affects my everyday life. I can't come to terms with death. Please, don't put that suffering on a 4 year old girl.

You don't push atheism on a child. Atheism is our natural default position.

haveringchick

endacl wrote: »

You don't push atheism on a child. Atheism is our natural default position.

Do you have evidence of this?