Disc brakes in road races (UCI approved for 2016 in pro peleton)

RobFowl

I see the UCI has approved the use of disc brakes in all pro races for 2016. Looks like they are here to stay.
Have to say I'm not a fan but it seems to be the way the sport is going.
Hope its a short lived fad but I'm probably dreaming...
FWIW I use discs on my MTB and great there, on my road and cross bikes I can lock wheels without discs so can't see the point....

http://www.uci.ch/pressreleases/the-uci-continue-disc-brake-trials-206/

Lumen

I sort of want a Cervelo R3 disc.

That's the only positive thing I can say about disc brakes and racing.

outfox

The potential for disc-related catastrophic and gory accidents might make for interesting viewing. Viewership figures might go up. More money for sponsors. That's another positive.

petethedrummer

Booooo

CramCycle

Shane Stokes had this on twitter over a week ago. Also in the rumour mill that they would be approved for the amateur scene alot earlier than anticipated with them being legal for amateur racing from 2017 (or so goes the rumour).

That press release doesn't seem to say anything at all about it though.

Fian

I love the disc brakes on my road bike, really improve confidence descending and so much easier to apply with one finger from the hoods, without needing to move into the drops.

i am not racing, just take the bike out for a spin at weekends and I go solo rather than in a group so that I can leave whenever suits me and travel at my own pace. With four kids i cna't commit to a scheduled time - I head out whenever I can find a window after kids matches at the weekend.

eeeee

CramCycle wrote: »

Shane Stokes had this on twitter over a week ago. Also in the rumour mill that they would be approved for the amateur scene alot earlier than anticipated with them being legal for amateur racing from 2017 (or so goes the rumour).

That press release doesn't seem to say anything at all about it though.

Oh god...

OleRodrigo

The images of ugly thread will be busy.

terrydel

Whats the negative issue around disc brakes?
I haven't a clue, so genuine question.
I'd have thought they'd be a great improvement, but haven't used them. All I can say is that in this day and age, I find the old style brakes to be akin to cassette tapes, way past the time when they should still be in use. Antiquated is the best word I can find to describe them.

Cee-Jay-Cee

terrydel wrote: »

Whats the negative issue around disc brakes?
I haven't a clue, so genuine question.
I'd have thought they'd be a great improvement, but haven't used them. All I can say is that in this day and age, I find the old style brakes to be akin to cassette tapes, way past the time when they should still be in use. Antiquated is the best word I can find to describe them.

Properly set up rim brakes are excellent. Disc brakes excel in the wet but that's about the only advantage that I can see. Saying that I'm going to buy a Synapse Disc next year on the BTW scheme to replace my Ridley. It'll be used only in winter/wet weather and I do all my winter spins on back roads with hills so the discs will help greatly on wet descents.

eeeee

terrydel wrote: »

Whats the negative issue around disc brakes?
I haven't a clue, so genuine question.
I'd have thought they'd be a great improvement, but haven't used them. All I can say is that in this day and age, I find the old style brakes to be akin to cassette tapes, way past the time when they should still be in use. Antiquated is the best word I can find to describe them.

In a field of professional riders largely fine (although there are questions about how safe they are on long descents when the discs get hot and stop working (i think), what happens in the event of a crash, hot disc or non hot disc).


In an amateur field, with such varying abilities I really do not look forward to it. People already jam on and lock up rim brakes. You will have a field with some on rim brakes and some on discs, and those different stoppoing abilities with the fields' wildly differing skill levels...*shudder*

equivariant

Do CI have a policy on this for Irish road races? Could be a real problem when some people are on discs and some are not.

Alek

disc-related catastrophic and gory accidents

Say what? How about chainring-related or tree-related?

People already jam on and lock up rim brakes.

Its nearly impossible to lock up road disc brakes from my experience. Haven't tried them all but from what I understand they are designed this way - not for power, but control.

and those different stoppoing abilities with the fields' wildly differing skill levels...*shudder*

I'd say that the skill level difference outweights any technical (dis)advantages in this case.

Beasty

equivariant wrote: »

Do CI have a policy on this for Irish road races? Could be a real problem when some people are on discs and some are not.

CI will follow UCI rules, and these proposals are not in for amateur races in 2016, so plenty of time to see how it goes

Perhaps the IVCA may need to consider a dedicated rule though

eeeee

That's my point. In amateur racing the skill level is the scariest thing about it. I know there are a million other technical things that can affect things but I don't fancy adding another thing to the pot. I think it should be all or nothing, which would put me out of road racing (don't have a disc-braked road bike) and get rid of the disparity. Disparities on other things (downtube shifters and STI's etc.) don't have as serious an effect on a bunch as brakes IMO.

Brian?

I'm unlikely to own a road bike with disc brakes any time soon. It's way down the list of things I want.

Disc brakes in the pro peleton are unlikely to actually change anything about racing. On the flat most accidents are caused by wheels touching, braking had very little to do with it.

OleRodrigo

terrydel wrote: »

All I can say is that in this day and age, I find the old style brakes to be akin to cassette tapes, way past the time when they should still be in use. Antiquated is the best word I can find to describe them.

Tape technology is still popular. Some producers specialise in it. Some of the (technically)best audio recordings were mastered on magnetic tape. They do take a bit of manual skill to use and maintain, though.

A bit like caliper brakes

petethedrummer

terrydel wrote: »

Whats the negative issue around disc brakes?

I think they're ugly.

Fian

gadetra wrote: »

In a field of professional riders largely fine (although there are questions about how safe they are on long descents when the discs get hot and stop working (i think), what happens in the event of a crash, hot disc or non hot disc).

There was an issue with hydraullic fluid boiling at sufficiently high temperatures - once that happened disc brakes would not engage. This is completely resolved now, the brakes do not get to high enough a temperature to boil the fluid. They have sent riders wearing lead weights to make a heavy load riding the brakes all the way down alpine descents without problems, so we are not going to find a descent in Ireland that will boil the fluid, even if you ride the brakes the whole way rather than releasing and brakeing before corners.

Lumen

Fian wrote: »

There was an issue with hydraullic fluid boiling at sufficiently high temperatures - once that happened disc brakes would not engage. This is completely resolved now, the brakes do not get to high enough a temperature to boil the fluid. They have sent riders wearing lead weights to make a heavy load riding the brakes all the way down alpine descents without problems, so we are not going to find a descent in Ireland that will boil the fluid, even if you ride the brakes the whole way rather than releasing and brakeing before corners.

I have personally witnessed someone on a Specialized Tarmac Disc cooking his brakes on an unremarkable descent in the UK. I do not know exactly what the failure mode was, but he lost significant braking power and swore a lot. We were stuck behind a van. My rim brakes (Chorus on alloy rims) were fine.

Alek

I have personally witnessed someone on a Specialized Tarmac Disc

When was this? Do you know what brakes did they use?

This is demonstration what kind of overheating a well designed hydro calipers can take: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_YREtBNCkI

el tel

I think it's a good thing because pretty much every other topic that can be discussed has been done to death 1000 times on F=410 but now we can look forward to a billion "what disc brake/break " related threads from now to eternity.

<sigh>

Mr. Grieves

Lumen wrote: »

I have personally witnessed someone on a Specialized Tarmac Disc cooking his brakes on an unremarkable descent in the UK. I do not know exactly what the failure mode was, but he lost significant braking power and swore a lot. We were stuck behind a van. My rim brakes (Chorus on alloy rims) were fine.

There could have been a leak. Hydraulic discs, while very reliable, probably do have more failure mechanisms than rim brakes.

I think any argument about variable braking performance in a bunch goes out the window when you consider carbon rim braking surfaces are allowed.

Chips Lovell

Pros will ride what they're paid to ride.

In the short term, it's hard to see anyone who does amateur stage racing opting for discs given the hassle it's going to create for them when it comes to wheel changes.

My main concern is that it will generate another round of forced obsolescence, i.e. when you go to replace a frame in a few years time, you'll only be able to buy disc-only frames.

Lumen

Alek wrote: »

When was this? Do you know what brakes did they use?

A couple of months ago. They were standard equipment as per spec:

http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bikes/road/tarmac/sworks-tarmac-disc-di2

...in other words, state of the art.

Beasty

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

My main concern is that it will generate another round of forced obsolescence, i.e. when you go to replace a frame in a few years time, you'll only be able to buy disc-only frames.

Is that an instruction to stock up on frames now?




:pac:

Beasty

el tel wrote: »

I think it's a good thing because pretty much every other topic that can be discussed has been done to death 1000 times on F=410 but now we can look forward to a billion "what disc brake/break " related threads from now to eternity.

<sigh>

Don't worry - we still have graphene frames to look forward to ....

The Ging and I

Beasty wrote: »

Is that an instruction to stock up on frames now?




:pac:

This is always a good plan, you just never know .....:D

Lumen

Mr. Grieves wrote: »

There could have been a leak. Hydraulic discs, while very reliable, probably do have more failure mechanisms than rim brakes.

I think any argument about variable braking performance in a bunch goes out the window when you consider carbon rim braking surfaces are allowed.

I don't think it's really an issue for racing, since the pros don't descend behind a panel van. Well, not during the race anyway. Maybe they do getting back down from Ventoux or wherever after a stage.

The greatest application for road discs, IMO, is drafting buses on the Dublin south quays in the wet. For that, they're awesome.

youtheman

I am a sportive cyclist, but my latest purchase is a Di1 bike with disc brakes. Here are my observations so far:
1. the feel of the disc brake is always uniform, it does not depends how wet or dry conditions are, how worn the pads are, and how open or closed the caliper is.
2. you are not wearing the rims of the wheels from the get-go. So, in theory (by my logic anyway) the wheels should last longer as you can replace the only wearing part, the bearings, numerous times.
3. its easier to clean the wheel rims as they are no coated in brake pad residue.
4. When you brake on rim brakes the force of the pads and the point of contact on the road are both on the outside of the wheel, so there is little flexing of the wheel. I find with disc brakes one force is on the inside near the disc and the other is on the outside, so the whole wheel tends to flex or shudder when you apply max braking. I've never been at the stage when I was afraid that I was going to go out over the handle bars, but I've often gotten a lot of shudder in the front wheel. I found that I had to keep the head cassette tight as any looseness in the headset also made the problem worse. This is the only negative I've had so far on the disc brakes.

el tel

If disc brakes will make roadside wheel changes in the pro races comically difficult then I suppose that's also a good thing, especially if much roadside petulance ensues and/or races are won or lost as a result.

ted1

youtheman wrote: »

I am a sportive cyclist, but my latest purchase is a Di1 bike with disc brakes. Here are my observations so far:
1. the feel of the disc brake is always uniform, it does not depends how wet or dry conditions are, how worn the pads are, and how open or closed the caliper is.
2. you are not wearing the rims of the wheels from the get-go. So, in theory (by my logic anyway) the wheels should last longer as you can replace the only wearing part, the bearings, numerous times.
3. its easier to clean the wheel rims as they are no coated in brake pad residue.
4. When you brake on rim brakes the force of the pads and the point of contact on the road are both on the outside of the wheel, so there is little flexing of the wheel. I find with disc brakes one force is on the inside near the disc and the other is on the outside, so the whole wheel tends to flex or shudder when you apply max braking. I've never been at the stage when I was afraid that I was going to go out over the handle bars, but I've often gotten a lot of shudder in the front wheel. I found that I had to keep the head cassette tight as any looseness in the headset also made the problem worse. This is the only negative I've had so far on the disc brakes.

so Rim brakes on the front and Discs on the back will make for thes best setup?

CramCycle

Lumen wrote: »

The greatest application for road discs, IMO, is drafting buses on the Dublin south quays in the wet. For that, they're awesome.

I have found that the rear of Dublin Buses pre2006 are far more effective at stopping me compared to calliper or disc brakes. Modern buses are OK but the bus skin does not tend to flex as much so I feel less confident using them to stop compared to older buses.

youtheman

CramCycle wrote: »

I have found that the rear of Dublin Buses pre2006 are far more effective at stopping me compared to calliper or disc brakes. Modern buses are OK but the bus skin does not tend to flex as much so I feel less confident using them to stop compared to older buses.

Reminds me of my youth as a student in Dublin in the 80's. In four years of college I only had one bike accident. Was about to overtake a stationary bus but just noticed a car also overtaking out of the corner of my eye, and knew there wasn't room for both of us. So I decided the safest option was to head for the back of the bus and just turn the wheel and drop my shoulder at the last moment. I just bounced off the back of the bus, bit like hitting a trampoline, no damage to be, my bike, or the bus. Happy days!.

Thud

Lumen wrote: »

I have personally witnessed someone on a Specialized Tarmac Disc cooking his brakes on an unremarkable descent in the UK. I do not know exactly what the failure mode was, but he lost significant braking power and swore a lot. We were stuck behind a van. My rim brakes (Chorus on alloy rims) were fine.

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/shimano-r785-road-hydraulic-disc-caliper-failure-45088/

Brian? wrote: »

Disc brakes in the pro peleton are unlikely to actually change anything about racing. On the flat most accidents are caused by wheels touching, braking had very little to do with it.

Will they increase the pile ups after the initial crashes though?

dave2pvd

For several years I've tried to keep my road bikes and CX bikes 'standardised'. Which meant 10 speed and 23mm rim widths. That way, same wheels worked for CX as road.

This year, it all changed. A Fuji Altamira CX arrived. 1x11 and SRAM Force CX1. Specialized road bike has been sold; the Fuji will be the do-everything for me. I also have a (canti) Giant TCX SL as a pit bike.

I've always been a proponent of well set up cantis - they do work. However, disc has some significant advantages: immune to conditions and very easy to modulate. The downsides: the levers are ugly and the calipers are difficult to center. The bonus: the chain no longer needs a keeper.

Discs in the pro peloton? I don't see the issue, really. The fluid won't boil on these new systems. Superior braking causing a pile-up: unlikely, as braking reaction times would be a bigger issue. For amateurs, whether road or CX, rim brakes on CF rims have serious drawbacks, particularly with the cheaper CF rims.

outfox

dave2pvd wrote: »

This year, it all changed. A Fuji Altamira CX arrived. 1x11

Minor digression: How to you find the 1x11? What cassette are you using?

dave2pvd

outfox wrote: »

Minor digression: How to you find the 1x11? What cassette are you using?

Quick response to digression: here's the link to the bike. 1x11 is fantastic. It won't win any sprint finishes, but I tend to avoid those types of races these days.

benneca1

Using discs on MTB for years downhill. Need them on MTB for stopping power in all conditions and basically wrestling with mechanical brakes would wreck you.

However on road bikes the advantage IMO is outweighed by the fact they are fiddly to set up, need regular bleeding, can develop spongy feel with use, very sensitive to contamination with oil, heavier than callipers and fork will need to be reinforced, replacing a wheel will become a pain especially the back wheel, added to that we might need through axles as on MTB there is an ongoing discussion if they are safe with conventional quick release.

Seems the marketeers are pushing a solution to a problem which does not exist.

dave2pvd

benneca1 wrote: »

Using discs on MTB for years downhill. Need them on MTB for stopping power in all conditions and basically wrestling with mechanical brakes would wreck you.

However on road bikes the advantage IMO is outweighed by the fact they are fiddly to set up, need regular bleeding, can develop spongy feel with use, very sensitive to contamination with oil, heavier than callipers and fork will need to be reinforced, replacing a wheel will become a pain especially the back wheel, added to that we might need through axles as on MTB there is an ongoing discussion if they are safe with conventional quick release.

Seems the marketeers are pushing a solution to a problem which does not exist.

True they're heavier. Keep in mind though that the brake track-less rims end up lighter. Less rotating mass = very good.

I expect that road bikes will follow CX bikes when it comes to axle convention, whether it's 12mm or 15mm up front. At the rear, the safety issue ought to be less, so 135mm QR should be ok.

Re the spongy/setup issues - Shimano seem to work a lot better than SRAM. At least in my limited experience.

benneca1

But add heavier forks plus disc mounts on wheel and brake mounts and id say more than compensates but back to my point whats the problem theyre trying to solve ? Many XC racers use v brakes cos are lighter
Maybe just maybe on a cross

JBokeh

Isn't the main limiting factor on slowing down a road bike the lack of grip from the tyres, and not the breaking power? I can lock up the rear of mine easily enough, especially from the drops, in the wet there is less breaking power, but there is also less grip, so if you grab a handful of disc brake in the wet it will probably take as much feathering as it does with a rim brake. I can't see it making a big difference in the overall stopping distance.

You're saving weight by not having a steel cable with a steel outer, and no braking track on the rim, but you're gaining it in having a disc with 6 bolts, a stronger fork and a lever with more to it than just a pivot and a cable anchor. Hopefully they don't start the rubbish they are doing with MTB and start bringing in new standards for dropout spacing, which is making perfectly good components obsolete. Now they're bringing the 142mm rear to a 148mm, which is poor if you've a good wheel set that you swap around, but the hub doesn't have adaptors to make it wider

Lumen

Stopping distance with wet rims is up to 2m shorter on discs due to not having to squeegee water off the braking surface.

Racers do this in advance of wet corners but not during unexpected emergency braking e.g. crash in bunch.

cdaly_

ted1 wrote: »

so Rim brakes on the front and Discs on the back will make for thes best setup?

That's what I have on my Thorn. Rear disc is a very good and reliable stopper and I find I use the front much less (thus reducing rim wear). When the front rim wears sufficiently, I'll swap rims over between front and rear wheels...

Alek

When the front rim wears sufficiently, I'll swap rims over between front and rear wheels...

Isn't it a bit of a false economy?

Lets say you exchange rims after 15000km - this is two wheel builds.
Then you need to change both rims after another 15000km. - yet another two wheel builds.

So, you need to build the wheel 4 times and buy 2 new rims in 30000km.

If you kept exchanging only the front one and truing the rear every 15000km, you would have build only 2 wheels and buy 2 new rims in 30000km.

Also, rear wheel carries more load (especially on a tourer!) and a used rim may fail earlier than on the front.

cdaly_

Probably so. I'll more likely just replace the front rim when the time comes.

AstraMonti

On the plus side we can use carbon rims all year round :pac:

Lumen

AstraMonti wrote: »

On the plus side we can use carbon rims all year round :pac:

Unfortunately deep section rims built stiff enough for disc braking, combined with a stiffer front fork also required for disc braking, may offer poor ride quality.

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/category/bikes/road/product/review-cannondale-synapse-hi-mod-disc-dura-ace-di2-14-48824/

As you’d expect from all these design features, the Hi-Mod is a very smooth operator, and it beats virtually every other machine out there in both the comfort and performance stakes – but it’s still not quite as silky as our bike of the year. Some of that difference is down to the exceptional Enve Smart 3.4 Disc wheels. These wide-rimmed carbon wheels have different depth rims for the front and rear. And though the back wheel benefits from the Synapse’s well-designed rear end, the rigid front wheel creates more vibration that you can feel through your hands.

So...

Pros:
- Rims and pads last longer and don't need to be cleaned

Cons
- Heavier
- More complicated and difficult to work on
- Sloppy lever feel
- Worse ride quality

CramCycle

Suppose my only real question is whether they will become the minimum in a few years i.e. banning of calipers, as this would influence my next road bike purchase.

dave2pvd

Lumen wrote: »

Unfortunately deep section rims built stiff enough for disc braking, combined with a stiffer front fork also required for disc braking, may offer poor ride quality.

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/category/bikes/road/product/review-cannondale-synapse-hi-mod-disc-dura-ace-di2-14-48824/



So...

Pros:
- Rims and pads last longer and don't need to be cleaned

Cons
- Heavier
- More complicated and difficult to work on
- Sloppy lever feel
- Worse ride quality

Disc brakes result in a stiffer riding rim? I don't think that's what the article concludes. It seems to be saying that the Enve Smart 3.4 Disc wheels, particularly the front one, rides stiffly.

Are disc rims more reinforced to absorb the torsional forces the hub braking generates? Maybe. But that would be at the spoke eyelets. It may also mean more spokes. Do you really want 'compliant' wheels though? Surely lateral compliance should be engineered into the frame?

Second point: sloppy lever feel. Is this manufacturer specific? SRAM hydro is not sloppy at all. My personal experience also indicates that Shimano hydro MTB levers have great feel. Perhaps sloppy lever feel is specific to mech disc systems (to be avoided, IMO)?

CramCycle

Well Shimano have said if there is sloppy/spongy feel, somethimg is a moss with the system eg a leak and you should sort it ASAP.

Since I dont really have a huge wealth of experience though I could be wrong. Anyones I have used have either been sharp or scrapping (misaligned)