Phonewatch sales pitch....

Going Forward

Had a man trying to sell PW yesterday, and he inferred that the Guards place priority on calls received from PW over other systems and mentioned that they (PW?) have the GPS co ordinates of the 3 closest available Garda cars, also that the Guards are compelled to turn up if they are alerted.

Sounds a little far fetched?

Also can I ask about the monitoring situation for PW, I gather from reading here that even though their own monitoring contract is optional after the first month, no one else can monitor the system?

bilbot79

Phone watch freaks me out. Why don't you phone the garda and ask?

Going Forward

bilbot79 wrote: »

Phone watch freaks me out. Why don't you phone the garda and ask?

I'm considering it TBH!

DublinDilbert

I made the mistake of chatting to the phone watch sales guy when I was killing time one day. He told me his alarm systems would provide the highest grade of protection possible, with just a front door contact and 2 pir's.

There's much more to an alarm than monitoring, I'd look at the complete system and how it protects your house. Nearly every alarm can be set up to communicate with a monitoring station.

KoolKid

If you read over this forum you will get most of the answers already.
The Guards give no priority to any monitoring station over the other.The monitoring stations would have no access to Garda car positions .All calls are placed to controllers and that's it.

Here is the full document on Garda Policy for Monitored Alarms
http://www.isia.ie/sites/go2isiasite/files/Garda%20Alarm%20Policy%2009%2009%2008_1.pdf

I think the following snippets answer all your questions.

Guards place priority on calls received from PW over other systems and mentioned that they (PW?) have the GPS co ordinates of the 3 closest available Garda cars, also that the Guards are compelled to turn up if they are alerted.

The Garda Síochána will recognise Alarm Installation Companies and Monitoring
Centres as those companies approved in the current list of certified companies
maintained by the accredited Certification Companies.


1.6 To effectively respond to a verified intruder alarm, the Garda Síochána require
that a key holder is informed and that they attend in the shortest time possible at
the premises.
1.7 Failure of a key holder to attend at a premises following a verified alarm will
result in the activation being recorded as a false alarm

And here is where PW are really in breach of this policy

No Alarm Installation Company or Monitoring Centre shall, in or on any of their
stationery or advertising material, make any reference to An Garda Síochána or
infer that Garda response will result from all alarm activations.

4.2 Failure of Company/Monitoring Station to comply with Policy
Failure by an Alarm Installation Company or a Monitoring Centre to comply with
this Policy will result in it no longer being recognised in accordance with this
Policy and recognition will not normally be restored before the elapse of one year.

As a licenced installer I am baffled how such a high profile company is getting away with so much regarding the standards & so much regarding mis information to the end user.
I would recommend a complaint to PW, the advertising standards authority as well as An Garda Siochana as , based on this they are in breach of Standards,Advertising standards and the Garda policy on monitored alarm systems.

kub

Thanks KoolKid, that was exactly what i was thinking.

No Alarm Installation Company or Monitoring Centre shall, in or on any of their
stationery or advertising material, make any reference to An Garda Síochána or
infer that Garda response will result from all alarm activations.

4.2 Failure of Company/Monitoring Station to comply with Policy
Failure by an Alarm Installation Company or a Monitoring Centre to comply with
this Policy will result in it no longer being recognised in accordance with this
Policy and recognition will not normally be restored before the elapse of one year.


Just for effect....:D

I bet the guy who said that is on commission.

KoolKid

They are all on commission.

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

They are all on commission.

Phonewatch this week, a Utility company next week, God knows the following week.

We know the type.....

KoolKid

Their security training is non existent, but you have to agree their sales training is doing the job.
These guys are selling you a system that only activates AFTER you are broken into . Why would anyone agree to an alarm like that. Sand to the Arabs and all that...

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

Their security training is non existent, but you have to agree their sales training is doing the job.
These guys are selling you a system that only activates AFTER you are broken into . Why would anyone agree to an alarm like that. Sand to the Arabs and all that...

And it doesn't even activate outside.
Just shows the power of the media and marketing.

Going Forward

Had a look at PW's current and updated terms and conditions on their website and the sales talk differs from what's in the conditions:

The T&C clearly state that the system is a rental agreement.
The impression I was given was that the upfront payment was to purchase and install the hardware and it was clearly explained that only the first month of monitoring had to be paid for.

After that, monthly payments could be dropped at will, and resumed at will, obviously with the additional monitoring for the paid months, but would work fine as a self contained system when not monitored or being paid for. To be fair, alternative monitoring was not implied.

I was also promised that the monthly charge for monitoring €35, would never ever increase.

I was given an upfront price of €100 less than someone I know who had it fitted a couple of months ago, (with same monitoring costs and equipment) even though my house is bigger.......

At this stage I'm starting to look at similarly specced systems to install myself without the camera malarkey.

Can a similar self installed system be independently monitored?

KoolKid

You don't want a similar spec system. Its not sufficient. You should be looking for perimeter protection with a couple of PiRs . This type of system will activate as soon as someone attempts to break in. A PiR only system, like PW, will only activate after someone has already gained access to your home.

Going Forward

KoolKid wrote: »

You don't want a similar spec system. Its not sufficient. You should be looking for perimeter protection with a couple of PiRs . This type of system will activate as soon as someone attempts to break in. A PiR only system, like PW, will only activate after someone has already gained access to your home.

Thanks, I appreciate that you're an installer, but can you recommend a system for self installation?

mexicanking

KoolKid wrote: »

You don't want a similar spec system. Its not sufficient. You should be looking for perimeter protection with a couple of PiRs . This type of system will activate as soon as someone attempts to break in. A PiR only system, like PW, will only activate after someone has already gained access to your home.

I got Phonewatch installed yesterday with contact and shock sensor on rear door, contact only sensor for front door plus the rest 4 PIR with camera, carbon monoxide and smoke alarm. I had the option of getting contact/shock sensors for windows but with an upcharge for installing. That would help alert if someone wants to gain access. The best part for me to go for phonewatch was the monitored smoke and CO alarm. If I was on holidays still they will be sending the emergency service if they detected smoke. What is the point of having an alarm when you are far away to do anything.

simdan

I would avoid these guys at all costs. They were bad when Eircom ran them, since selling off the company, their support went severely down hill. Glad to be away from them. I now have a cctv system that gives me far better piece of mind and I can call the Garda if I see an issue from anywhere in the world.

fred funk }{

mexicanking wrote: »

I got Phonewatch installed yesterday with contact and shock sensor on rear door, contact only sensor for front door plus the rest 4 PIR with camera, carbon monoxide and smoke alarm. I had the option of getting contact/shock sensors for windows but with an upcharge for installing. That would help alert if someone wants to gain access. The best part for me to go for phonewatch was the monitored smoke and CO alarm. If I was on holidays still they will be sending the emergency service if they detected smoke. What is the point of having an alarm when you are far away to do anything.

Are you happy that a burglar is already in your house before the alarm is triggered?

KoolKid

Going Forward wrote: »

Thanks, I appreciate that you're an installer, but can you recommend a system for self installation?

Something like GSD would be a good choice and very user friendly.

mexicanking

fred funk }{ wrote: »

Are you happy that a burglar is already in your house before the alarm is triggered?

That's why I have the door contact/shock sensors installed. The shock sensors would go off if someone tries to gain access. Shock sensors cannot be installed at front door as it would trigger with post and people knocking the door. But shock and contact sensor can be installed at any entry points. This should trigger an alarm before they are in. I guess this is the same with most of the monitored home alarms.
Plus if someone did gain access the intrusion can be verified with the PIR camera, for emergency service. I would not debate if Guards will get in if there is no key holder. I was told that as the monitoring center can verify there is an intruder there is a better chance of response. A self monitoring CCTV camera is great but what happens if you are not in a position to attend to the alert. Phone battery dead, lost, silent etc or on a flight. Or your internet is down, you will have to pay for a GSM backup.

The same goes with the with smoke or CO detectors. If the alarm goes off and you cannot reach in time. You can call the fire brigade but will have to pay out for a false alarm. Phone watch can verify it with the PIR camera. And they will pay out for a false alarm.
I think its good for what can be done, but at a hefty price. Sure its not 100%

KoolKid

mexicanking wrote: »

I got Phonewatch installed yesterday with contact and shock sensor on rear door, contact only sensor for front door plus the rest 4 PIR with camera, carbon monoxide and smoke alarm. I had the option of getting contact/shock sensors for windows but with an upcharge for installing. That would help alert if someone wants to gain access. The best part for me to go for phonewatch was the monitored smoke and CO alarm. If I was on holidays still they will be sending the emergency service if they detected smoke. What is the point of having an alarm when you are far away to do anything.

All systems can have monitored smoke and heat and co2 detectors. In fact all monitored system would monitor all devices on the system without making a big deal about it and without trying to charge extra monitoring charges.
All monitored systems can send the emergency services as well. This is not a PW service.
You have only the 2 doors covered. Seeing a PW system an intruder is more likely to go for a window I'd say.
All modern alarms use alarm verification techniques. A PW verified alarm will get the same priority as any other.
I would also recommend you read the Garda policy on response to monitored alarms. You will find its a great deal different than what PW portray.

lgk

mexicanking wrote: »

That's why I have the door contact/shock sensors installed. The shock sensors would go off if someone tries to gain access. Shock sensors cannot be installed at front door as it would trigger with post and people knocking the door. But shock and contact sensor can be installed at any entry points. This should trigger an alarm before they are in. I guess this is the same with most of the monitored home alarms.
Plus if someone did gain access the intrusion can be verified with the PIR camera, for emergency service. I would not debate if Guards will get in if there is no key holder. I was told that as the monitoring center can verify there is an intruder there is a better chance of response. A self monitoring CCTV camera is great but what happens if you are not in a position to attend to the alert. Phone battery dead, lost, silent etc or on a flight. Or your internet is down, you will have to pay for a GSM backup.

The same goes with the with smoke or CO detectors. If the alarm goes off and you cannot reach in time. You can call the fire brigade but will have to pay out for a false alarm. Phone watch can verify it with the PIR camera. And they will pay out for a false alarm.
I think its good for what can be done, but at a hefty price. Sure its not 100%

All of that can be provided by the majority of PW's competition for a lot less than PW charge. Other installers won't sell you outdated technology while convincing you you're getting the best available.

And I'm not in the industry, I speak (type?) as someone who successfully fought PW to uninstall and refund a very poorly designed and outdated system that they completely mis-sold to my elderly parents.

fred funk }{

mexicanking wrote: »

That's why I have the door contact/shock sensors installed. The shock sensors would go off if someone tries to gain access. Shock sensors cannot be installed at front door as it would trigger with post and people knocking the door. But shock and contact sensor can be installed at any entry points. This should trigger an alarm before they are in. I guess this is the same with most of the monitored home alarms.
Plus if someone did gain access the intrusion can be verified with the PIR camera, for emergency service. I would not debate if Guards will get in if there is no key holder. I was told that as the monitoring center can verify there is an intruder there is a better chance of response. A self monitoring CCTV camera is great but what happens if you are not in a position to attend to the alert. Phone battery dead, lost, silent etc or on a flight. Or your internet is down, you will have to pay for a GSM backup.

The same goes with the with smoke or CO detectors. If the alarm goes off and you cannot reach in time. You can call the fire brigade but will have to pay out for a false alarm. Phone watch can verify it with the PIR camera. And they will pay out for a false alarm.
I think its good for what can be done, but at a hefty price. Sure its not 100%

You're banking on the intruder gaining entry through one of the doors. What if they come in through the window?

mexicanking

KoolKid wrote: »

All systems can have monitored smoke and heat and co2 detectors. In fact all monitored system would monitor all devices on the system without making a big deal about it and without trying to charge extra monitoring charges.
All monitored systems can send the emergency services as well. This is not a PW service.
You have only the 2 doors covered. Seeing a PW system an intruder is more likely to go for a window I'd say.
All modern alarms use alarm verification techniques. A PW verified alarm will get the same priority as any other.
I would also recommend you read the Garda policy on response to monitored alarms. You will find its a great deal different than what PW portray.

I might seem totally ignorant in this now. How can other companies verify an intruder without a PIR camera. Also I am planning to get the contact shock sensors on windows but was put off by the extra cost, so got it only done on doors. Its €150 for one sensor, that is very high. The price does go down with multiple purchase.

colm_mcm

Going Forward wrote: »

Had a look at PW's current and updated terms and conditions on their website and the sales talk differs from what's in the conditions:

The T&C clearly state that the system is a rental agreement.
The impression I was given was that the upfront payment was to purchase and install the hardware and it was clearly explained that only the first month of monitoring had to be paid for.

After that, monthly payments could be dropped at will, and resumed at will, obviously with the additional monitoring for the paid months, but would work fine as a self contained system when not monitored or being paid for. To be fair, alternative monitoring was not implied.

I was also promised that the monthly charge for monitoring €35, would never ever increase.

I was given an upfront price of €100 less than someone I know who had it fitted a couple of months ago, (with same monitoring costs and equipment) even though my house is bigger.......

At this stage I'm starting to look at similarly specced systems to install myself without the camera malarkey.

Can a similar self installed system be independently monitored?

I was under the impression that the newer pw Alarms don't function at all unless the monitoring fee is being paid?

lgk

mexicanking wrote: »

I might seem totally ignorant in this now. How can other companies verify an intruder without a PIR camera. Also I am planning to get the contact shock sensors on windows but was put off by the extra cost, so got it only done on doors. Its €150 for one sensor, that is very high. The price does go down with multiple purchase.

A well designed system with multiple (way cheaper) sensors will show multiple zone alarms if an intruder enters, multiple triggers rules out false alarms. How many cameras would you need to be sure of catching a burglar in your home? I don't know your layout, but I'm pretty sure it's greater than one. A potential burglar seeing a PW bellbox likely knows the shortcomings in their systems too...

KoolKid

mexicanking wrote: »

I might seem totally ignorant in this now. How can other companies verify an intruder without a PIR camera. Also I am planning to get the contact shock sensors on windows but was put off by the extra cost, so got it only done on doors. Its €150 for one sensor, that is very high. The price does go down with multiple purchase.

Alarms are verified by the activation of more than one zone. €150 for one sensor is very expensive. Also I have heard that PW increase the monitoring charges as you add extra devices. This is something that no other company does AFAIK.
Anyway this thread has proven 2 things that I have been saying..
Some people will never listen to good advice and are blinded by brand.
You should always shop around.

Going Forward

colm_mcm wrote: »

I was under the impression that the newer pw Alarms don't function at all unless the monitoring fee is being paid?

I don't know.

But I was told last week by PW rep that it definitely would, and you only have to pay the first month's monitoring fee.

You can then chop and change.

This is completely different to their published September 2015 t&cs. It's pay pay pay.

If not, they're free to take the system back because the whole thing is actually a rental contract.

I'm glad I didn't get it now.

fred funk }{

And don't forget, if you ever decide to change alarm company you will need to install an entire new system as no other company can take their systems over.

KoolKid

Going Forward wrote: »

you only have to pay the first month's monitoring fee.

You can then chop and change..

How do you mean chop and change?

Going Forward

KoolKid wrote: »

How do you mean chop and change?

He said you can pay for it just when you want them to monitor it/ everything's hunky dory and it'll work fine by itself if you don't pay for the monitoring!!!

Not only that but if it went faulty when you weren't paying for it, the best thing to do was start paying again and then contact them for a free repair/service call.

kub

mexicanking wrote: »

That's why I have the door contact/shock sensors installed. The shock sensors would go off if someone tries to gain access. Shock sensors cannot be installed at front door as it would trigger with post and people knocking the door. But shock and contact sensor can be installed at any entry points. This should trigger an alarm before they are in. I guess this is the same with most of the monitored home alarms.
Plus if someone did gain access the intrusion can be verified with the PIR camera, for emergency service. I would not debate if Guards will get in if there is no key holder. I was told that as the monitoring center can verify there is an intruder there is a better chance of response. A self monitoring CCTV camera is great but what happens if you are not in a position to attend to the alert. Phone battery dead, lost, silent etc or on a flight. Or your internet is down, you will have to pay for a GSM backup.

The same goes with the with smoke or CO detectors. If the alarm goes off and you cannot reach in time. You can call the fire brigade but will have to pay out for a false alarm. Phone watch can verify it with the PIR camera. And they will pay out for a false alarm.
I think its good for what can be done, but at a hefty price. Sure its not 100%

At least € 35 a month forever more, unable to get another company to service, repair or monitor your system, everyone to their own as they say.

Now just about your mention above of Shock sensors not been fitted to Front Doors, well i will let you and who ever 'advised' you in on a little fact, i am over 25 years in this business and you know what, i have always, currently and will for the foreseeable future fit Inertia Shock Sensors and Contacts to Front Doors, I have had no issues with them whatsoever.
But then one needs to know what one is doing.
If only i could charge my customers like PW can.

enfant terrible

Going Forward wrote: »

He said you can pay for it just when you want them to monitor it/ everything's hunky dory and it'll work fine by itself if you don't pay for the monitoring!!!

Not only that but if it went faulty when you weren't paying for it, the best thing to do was start paying again and then contact them for a free repair/service call.

Not sure it will work without paying. I moved into a house which used to have pw and was told you need an installer code to get system running independently.

KoolKid

And there is no installer access from the keypad either way from what I can gather.