More Insurance Fraudsters named and shamed

RandomAccess

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/insurance-scam-couple-who-staged-car-crash-as-strangers-caught-after-they-appeared-in-each-others-facebook-profiles-34234617.html

Both Ward and Ivory later submitted a personal injury claim to FBD Insurance during which they again denied knowing the occupants of the other vehicle.

They both made voluntary statements to gardaí outlining what had happened and stating that the people in the other car were strangers.

Garda Neill Plunkett told Martina Baxter BL prosecuting, that a claims handler with FBD examined both Ward's and Ivory's Facebook accounts, having received their claims and noted that they appeared in each other's profile pictures.

The gardaí were contacted and when officers arrived at Ivory's home to arrest her for questioning Ward answered the door.

Sentencing is tomorrow,

Youngblood.III

Good to see, but still too many claims settled by insurance companies by offering a quick 5k...it costs them about 8k to get to court..so they opt for the quick fix.
The rest if us pay for it with high premiums...insurance companies rarely out of pocket.

colm_mcm

Is that the same Ward that towed a car (that had no working clutch) into a ditch

Edit: no, different person

NIMAN

Slap on the wrist.

To Elland Back

If only they were all as thick as that pair. Most have their ducks in a line, unfortunately

Liam McPoyle

Youngblood.III wrote: »

Good to see, but still too many claims settled by insurance companies by offering a quick 5k...it costs them about 8k to get to court..so they opt for the quick fix.
The rest if us pay for it with high premiums...insurance companies rarely out of pocket.

You are wrong in so many ways there is no point in even trying to explain.

dr.fuzzenstein

Business Cat wrote: »

You are wrong in so many ways there is no point in even trying to explain.

I thought he was not too far off except insurance companies not being out of pocket. Insurance companies know that fighting a claim will only result in turning a 5k payout into a 20k legal case, so money gets thrown at everyone who says "ouch my neck hurts a bit". So by paying out and raising premiums they manage to stay afloat. But a lot of their losses also stem from investments gone bad over the last few years, so hopefully that will improve.

RandomAccess

Business Cat wrote: »

You are wrong in so many ways there is no point in even trying to explain.

You're in the insurance business right?

Question for you, who would insure them after this?
Nobody would, I should think??

Because if they can't get insurance, then they can't legally drive right, so have they also earned themselves a kind of driving ban.

Roanmore

Business Cat wrote: »

You are wrong in so many ways there is no point in even trying to explain.

Please do.

To Elland Back

RandomAccess wrote: »

You're in the insurance business right?

Question for you, who would insure them after this?
Nobody would, I should think??

Because if they can't get insurance, then they can't legally drive right, so have they also earned themselves a kind of driving ban.

It doesn't stop them getting behind the wheel of a car, driving uninsured. If they cause an accident, the MIBI coughs up, which means you, me and other good citizens have paid them for the privilege.

Liam McPoyle

RandomAccess wrote: »

You're in the insurance business right?

Question for you, who would insure them after this?
Nobody would, I should think??

Because if they can't get insurance, then they can't legally drive right, so have they also earned themselves a kind of driving ban.

I am indeed, I'm an underwriter by day, insurance industry defender on Boards by night!

:pac:

Unfortunately everyone is legally entitled to motor insurance as its the only type of insurance that is a legal requirement in Ireland.

Their most recent insurer would be obliged to quote them provided the policy was bought on an above board basis ie they didn't lie to get covered.

They can be made jump through hoops to get it, something along the lines of going through the declined cases committee then having to produce all relevant documents - license, log book, manual proposal form etc - which would be sent to the underwriting department for consideration.

I've no doubt that restricted cover is all that would be offered too - third party only, insured only driving, a hefty conviction loading along with a chunky policy excess.

For all intents and purposes however they would be able to get insurance if they so desired though.

Youngblood.III

A friend was in a crash a few years, off work for a few days, not his fault. The other parties insurance company rang them and asked would they take 5k to settle any liability.

dr.fuzzenstein

Youngblood.III wrote: »

A friend was in a crash a few years, off work for a few days, not his fault. The other parties insurance company rang them and asked would they take 5k to settle any liability.

Off work for a few days? Cheeky of them! He could have gotten 20k.
I hope insurance companies will learn that waving money at people is not the right strategy in Ireland, because everyone will soon learn that there's free money to be had, hurry up and get yours. And the legal profession is only to happy to keep grinding that particular wheel.

billy few mates

Business Cat wrote: »

I am indeed, I'm an underwriter by day, insurance industry defender on Boards by night!

:pac:

Unfortunately everyone is legally entitled to motor insurance as its the only type of insurance that is a legal requirement in Ireland.

Their most recent insurer would be obliged to quote them provided the policy was bought on an above board basis ie they didn't lie to get covered.

They can be made jump through hoops to get it, something along the lines of going through the declined cases committee then having to produce all relevant documents - license, log book, manual proposal form etc - which would be sent to the underwriting department for consideration.

I've no doubt that restricted cover is all that would be offered too - third party only, insured only driving, a hefty conviction loading along with a chunky policy excess.

For all intents and purposes however they would be able to get insurance if they so desired though.

I do all the insurance renewals in my house, home, cars etc so I'm used to the standard questions and thankfully am always able to answer 'No' to them but I've often wondered what happens when someone answers 'yes', ie 'yes I was declined insurance, or was convicted of trying to defraud the insurer etc'.
Do they just get refused or do you just quote them a large enough figure to turn them away...?

Youngblood.III

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Off work for a few days? Cheeky of them! He could have gotten 20k.
I hope insurance companies will learn that waving money at people is not the right strategy in Ireland, because everyone will soon learn that there's free money to be had, hurry up and get yours. And the legal profession is only to happy to keep grinding that particular wheel.

He was fine and didn't take any money..fair play to him.
As for the legal profession, a lot of the time they're not even involved...the insurance company gets in with a quick offer to not claim.

Liam McPoyle

billy few mates wrote: »

I do all the insurance renewals in my house, home, cars etc so I'm used to the standard questions and thankfully am always able to answer 'No' to them but I've often wondered what happens when someone answers 'yes', ie 'yes I was declined insurance, or was convicted of trying to defraud the insurer etc'.
Do they just get refused or do you just quote them a large enough figure to turn them away...?

Insurers will generally just automatically decline to quote people with previous convictions, a forced cancellation by a previous insurer etc rather than quote them a hefty price, safer bet in the long run in case an undesirable person buys a policy.

So they got sentenced today and no surprises in the leniency.

Ward got two years with a year suspended so he's out in 6months and she got 2 years with two suspended.

The sooner the electorate demand action on law and order the better.
Farcial sentences in this country due to paltry prison space.
Time we built a few more prisons but the people don't seem to demand it.

Jesus.

Youngblood.III wrote: »

Good to see, but still too many claims settled by insurance companies by offering a quick 5k...it costs them about 8k to get to court..so they opt for the quick fix.The rest if us pay for it with high premiums...insurance companies rarely out of pocket.

Seen a situation the other day where a car literally just tipped the back of another one and the guy in the front car got out holding his neck.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

Jesus.

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I think its very wrong mate. When I say "tipped" I mean literally "tipped" at about 3mph. I'd never pretend injury like that. Indeed some young one ran into the back of me at a proper pace a few years ago and I just let her off (I was driving a Jeep at the time which wasn't harmed whereas her Starlet was all smashed up )

Kimbot

gilberto_eire wrote: »

So they got sentenced today and no surprises in the leniency.

Ward got two years with a year suspended so he's out in 6months and she got 2 years with two suspended.

The sooner the electorate demand action on law and order the better.
Farcial sentences in this country due to paltry prison space.
Time we built a few more prisons but the people don't seem to demand it.

The people dont demand it because of the costs associated with it.
€35 million just to build the new prison in Cork that holds only 310 people:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/costliest-prison-to-open-this-year-in-cork-344646.html

That price is just for the building, you have to then kit it out with beds, staff, IT infastructure etc.

Vic_08

gilberto_eire wrote: »

So they got sentenced today and no surprises in the leniency.

Ward got two years with a year suspended so he's out in 6months and she got 2 years with two suspended.

The sooner the electorate demand action on law and order the better.
Farcial sentences in this country due to paltry prison space.
Time we built a few more prisons but the people don't seem to demand it.

Judge Nolan is a walking advertisement for mandatory sentencing, non-custodials for paedos and violent offenders alongside lengthy jail time for tax fraud (the notorious garlic case).

ronan45

Oops:eek: Better Put my friends List on Private, nearly tripped myself up there. :rolleyes: thanks for the heads up Mr Insurance Company:p:cool:
I mean ehhh Yeah God Work On that :cool:

NUTLEY BOY

See it this way.

The plaintiff has to prove the case being made. The standard of proof is the balance of probabilities i.e. at least 51% more likely to be true than not.

If the claimant can reach that standard the claim succeeds. It is galling when the plaintiff is an accomplished liar who cannot be shaken out.

If an insurance company is going to allege fraud on the part of a plaintiff they must prove that allegation. Making the allegation gets the defendant nowhere without evidence and tends to irk some of the judges.

Sensibly, what does the insurer do ? They can defend and get soaked as they usually do when they lose. They can try and buy off the risk of a bad result with a quick settlement.

And why do insurance companies behave like this ? Firstly, the plaintiff's lawyers know that they will more likely than not get a judgment with costs if they go to a full hearing. Secondly, as long as courts continue to pay the levels of damages which they do the overall cost of claims will go one way only, PIAB or not.

Speaking to an insurance bod recently. She explained that most motor insurers make underwriting losses i.e more paid out in claims than received in premiums. Insurers traditionally covered that gap with the income from investments but those returns are so poor that profit margins are squeezed.

ptyloch

What a load of bollox of a sentencing! What about the cost of the rescue operation? Does the taxpayer get to cover that?
He was taken out of the car on a board ffs!!
They try to scam an insurance company and they get sentenced for that, fair enough, but shouldn't they also get sentenced for causing loss to the country/taxpayer/HSE?
Shouldn't the HSE sue them now for the costs?

NUTLEY BOY

I understand the reasons behind them but I hate suspended or partially suspended sentences :mad:

Jesus.

gilberto_eire wrote: »

Ward got two years with a year suspended so he's out in 6months

Either I need to brush up on my maths or something's not right there

billy few mates

ptyloch wrote: »

What a load of bollox of a sentencing! What about the cost of the rescue operation? Does the taxpayer get to cover that?
He was taken out of the car on a board ffs!!
They try to scam an insurance company and they get sentenced for that, fair enough, but shouldn't they also get sentenced for causing loss to the country/taxpayer/HSE?
Shouldn't the HSE sue them now for the costs?

Exactly, you can also bet your bottom dollar they had a rake of physio sessions as well causing additional burden to the already overburdened HSE resources. I know someone who works in a physio department of the local hospital and they can always tell when someones milking the system for a claim because they say their solicitor tells them the more "suffering" and physio they have, the bigger their payout. You can't measure 'suffering' but you do have a record of physio sessions so you get all theses people hounding them for more and more physio sessions than the average patient would normally require. They should be prosecuted separately and billed for wasting these resources.

I also feel people who have been convicted of a motor insurance fraud should have to display a large 'F' Plate on their cars (like the L and N plates) to warn the rest of us to give them a wide berth....

dar83

Business Cat wrote: »

Insurers will generally just automatically decline to quote people with previous convictions, a forced cancellation by a previous insurer etc rather than quote them a hefty price, safer bet in the long run in case an undesirable person buys a policy.

I would actually love to hear your opinion on modified insurance in Ireland. I don't want to derail the thread here or PM you out of course, but please feel free to PM me if you can shed any light on its difficulty (read - impossibility) in obtaining on our fair Isle. Cheers.

Liam McPoyle

dar83 wrote: »

I would actually love to hear your opinion on modified insurance in Ireland. I don't want to derail the thread here or PM you out of course, but please feel free to PM me if you can shed any light on its difficulty (read - impossibility) in obtaining on our fair Isle. Cheers.

Do you mean for modified cars?

I'm on mobile but will try and answer as best I can later this evening.

Stoolbend

Jesus. wrote: »

Either I need to brush up on my maths or something's not right there

Traditionally only 50% of the sentence would be served. So in all probability he'd only serve around 6 months in jail.

ronan45

Just saw this pair on the news and of course looked up facebook... their both profiles are up and running and loads of pictures there for all to see....

Are they like the ultimate trolls or something???? Attention seeking????? What,,, Ok you get caught and are going to court for what they did,..... Ehhhh 99.99 Percent of people would either delete their facebook or Private it out to the max !? !? I dont get it

RandomAccess

ronan45 wrote: »

Just saw this pair on the news and of course looked up facebook... their both profiles are up and running and loads of pictures there for all to see....

Are they like the ultimate trolls or something???? Attention seeking????? What,,, Ok you get caught and are going to court for what they did,..... Ehhhh 99.99 Percent of people would either delete their facebook or Private it out to the max !? !? I dont get it

I guess infamy is a kind of fame.
I'm infamous!! Wooooo...

ronan45

Im sure your one has looked at this thread allready or some of her mates and they have given her a heads up !

RandomAccess

ronan45 wrote: »

Im sure your one has looked at this thread allready or some of her mates and they have given her a heads up !

The Journal has picked the story up so they are getting plenty heat on there.

And they won't see this thread unless we mention their names. I neglected to do so in the OP, but David Ward and Lynsey Ivory have earned it.

ronan45

Is it actually legal for RTE Prime time news to actually show an actual screen shot of their personal Facebook page? Another law suit in the making?

aphex™

ronan45 wrote: »

Is it actually legal for RTE Prime time news to actually show an actual screen shot of their personal Facebook page? Another law suit in the making?

What law was broken?

Henry Ford III

She didn't get bird due to having no previous convictions. He did however which suggests he has form.

ronan45

Even a goon would know to set that plan up with a friend. NOT YOUR PARTNER YOU LIVE WITH.. at least you might get away with that ! Has to seem Plausible ya know:cool:



I mean Like ya know.... If you were that way inclined

billy few mates

The judge gave them both two years, he suspended his second year and her two years because "somebody has to mind the kids"....

He should have suspended her first year and they could have swapped over the child minding responsibilities between them....

There are so many threads and posts on here with people suffering with increases in car insurance premiums, its because of people like these.....:mad:

dr.fuzzenstein

Any bets taken if they're already planning to appeal? And if they win sue everyone who wrote news stories about them...

ronan45

aphex™ wrote: »

What law was broken?

Invasion of Privacy? Can RTE just put your facebook profile and pics up on primetime national news?

MojoMaker

As opposed to anyone just logging onto facebook and seeing it for themselves. FB is public domain information after all.

Liam McPoyle

dar83 wrote: »

I would actually love to hear your opinion on modified insurance in Ireland. I don't want to derail the thread here or PM you out of course, but please feel free to PM me if you can shed any light on its difficulty (read - impossibility) in obtaining on our fair Isle. Cheers.

My own personal opinion is that its pretty unfair in the main as in most insurers when they hear a car is modified, they run a mile.

If the work has been carried out professionally, and they are getting the correct premium for it then it shouldn't be an issue. For more cosmetic stuff like lowered suspensions or things that would make the car safer such as a specialised braking system I dont think any loading should be applied. Its when the performance of the car is improved is where the premium should be adjusted imo.

For drivers over 25 I would surmise that they are beyond the "boy racer" phase (mostly) and are enthusiasts as opposed to wannabe rally drivers so again, I think its unfair that everyone is tarred with the same brush.

The issue from an insurance company PoV is that there is no guarantee that the works have been carried out by a professional or that what they are been told is 100% accurate and above board. When modifying the BHP for example who is to say what the increase goes to is accurate? When rating a risk insurers try, as much as is possible, to put as accurate a rating on a vehicle as is possible. They all have systems in place (much like when you are doing an online quote) where the agent enters details the premium generated is based on the actuarial statistics they have based on stock standard, factory floor cars. It would be impossible to rate each vehicle easily, it would take a specialist underwriter and actuary time to look at each one and from a cost base perspective its not worth it.

When an insurer accepts a modified car then are essentially opening themselves up to getting stuck with any modification the owner decides to make.

Modified or high end cars are generally much higher targets for vandalism and theft so thats another concern.

There is also the fact that the modified car scene in Ireland is a relatively new phenomenon and the required expertise to correctly underwrite risks of this nature does not exist.

We also have a relatively small number of active insurers in the market and a smaller pool of funds to spread the risk across.

Insurers get edgy when it comes to anything outside of the ordinary and will always err on the side of caution. People with non standard houses go through the same things too.

I do think there is a definite gap in the market for a specialist insurer to take up this class of business, if its rated correctly and the underwriting criteria is kept strict then I think it could be pretty lucrative.

Nichard Dixon

ronan45 wrote: »

Invasion of Privacy? Can RTE just put your facebook profile and pics up on primetime national news?

If you put it on Facebook anyone can see it. Provided RTE accurately state that is is your Facebook page than this is OK.

Great to see that some of these chancers are getting done.

Caliden

Another fraudster caught out by Facebook photos:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/facebook-pictures-of-fine-human-specimen-of-fitness-collapses-womans-60000-damages-claim-34253695.html

Looking to claim 60k for what appears to be nothing more than a tip in a car park.

RandomAccess

A big fine and jail time is needed for all these cases as well as public naming and shaming upon conviction.

Clearly it's gone from an epidemic to a plague.

Caliden

RandomAccess wrote: »

A big fine and jail time is needed for all these cases as well as public naming and shaming upon conviction.

Clearly it's gone from an epidemic to a plague.

I agree, an example needs to be made of these people who are caught telling blatant lies under oath.

Right now, the 'reward' far outweighs the risk of doing what she did.

She gets a slap on the wrist and the cost of legal fees.

Atlantic Dawn

What's as bad as the fraudsters is the accomplices they have both friends and professionals who facilitate it.

dar83

Business Cat wrote: »

My own personal opinion is that its pretty unfair in the main as in most insurers when they hear a car is modified, they run a mile.

If the work has been carried out professionally, and they are getting the correct premium for it then it shouldn't be an issue. For more cosmetic stuff like lowered suspensions or things that would make the car safer such as a specialised braking system I dont think any loading should be applied. Its when the performance of the car is improved is where the premium should be adjusted imo.

For drivers over 25 I would surmise that they are beyond the "boy racer" phase (mostly) and are enthusiasts as opposed to wannabe rally drivers so again, I think its unfair that everyone is tarred with the same brush.

The issue from an insurance company PoV is that there is no guarantee that the works have been carried out by a professional or that what they are been told is 100% accurate and above board. When modifying the BHP for example who is to say what the increase goes to is accurate? When rating a risk insurers try, as much as is possible, to put as accurate a rating on a vehicle as is possible. They all have systems in place (much like when you are doing an online quote) where the agent enters details the premium generated is based on the actuarial statistics they have based on stock standard, factory floor cars. It would be impossible to rate each vehicle easily, it would take a specialist underwriter and actuary time to look at each one and from a cost base perspective its not worth it.

When an insurer accepts a modified car then are essentially opening themselves up to getting stuck with any modification the owner decides to make.

Modified or high end cars are generally much higher targets for vandalism and theft so thats another concern.

There is also the fact that the modified car scene in Ireland is a relatively new phenomenon and the required expertise to correctly underwrite risks of this nature does not exist.

We also have a relatively small number of active insurers in the market and a smaller pool of funds to spread the risk across.

Insurers get edgy when it comes to anything outside of the ordinary and will always err on the side of caution. People with non standard houses go through the same things too.

I do think there is a definite gap in the market for a specialist insurer to take up this class of business, if its rated correctly and the underwriting criteria is kept strict then I think it could be pretty lucrative.

Apologies, I'm very late seeing this and coming back to you, but I appreciate the feedback on it as you are the first person I know of working in insurance that hasn't been afraid to actually just talk freely about it at all!

I appreciate all your points and I do understand that it's pretty much a no go for the 'main insurers' here based on a cost benefit analysis and the added leg work involved, but I'm also slightly at a loss when it comes to the fact of engineers reports being offered as well as garage invoices etc... and still finding it next to impossible to get quotes. It's a shame and honestly one of the reasons I became disillusioned with my previous car, because getting quotes, let alone cover each year was a nightmare. It is definitely a case of damned if you do when you decide to declare modifications to any insurer on our Island.
On your final point I agree completely with you and if I had the capital and/or backing, then I'd be looking to open up my own business in such things, as there is a massive gap there and given the general fact that most people looking for such insurance actually mind their cars like babies there is definitely the chance there for a lucrative business.

Cheers for the insight, very much appreciated. Now, work your way up wherever it is you're based and make some changes. :P

To Elland Back

dar83 wrote: »

On your final point I agree completely with you and if I had the capital and/or backing, then I'd be looking to open up my own business in such things, as there is a massive gap there and given the general fact that most people looking for such insurance actually mind their cars like babies there is definitely the chance there for a lucrative business.

I've worked for decades in insurance, both for insurers and brokers and would never invest a penny of my money in the industry at the moment. I don't think any of the players currently involved would start over, given the choice