Issue with tenant

HelpWithTenant

Hi there. I'm hoping for some advice with the issue we are having... we have a tenant living with us for a short-term basis (less than 6 months). We have been having issues with her forgetting to turn off appliances and have had to ask her repeatedly to be more careful. On Monday, my husband returned home to be alerted by the builders next door that the house smelled of gas. She had left the gas stove on for almost 7 hours and the house was filled with gas. My husband called the gas company who told him to make sure that no lights or appliances were left on anywhere, so he went into her room to discover that she had left both her oil heater and electric blanket on all day when she left for work (again, about 7 hours at this stage). She works very close by so my husband called her at work and she came home. Her reply to this was: "oopsy." She has no regard for the consequences of what she did and she endangered our safety. She told my husband he was a liar and that the gas had never been on, because she couldn't smell it (this was over an hour since my husband had first come home so all windows and doors had been open and the smell had dissipated. She was very defensive and barely apologized, saying my husband shouldn't be so concerned because nothing had actually happened.
Now - there were words exchanged where my husband told her that she would need to pay for any damages/cost of gas and that our trust in her was gone. She said she would be moving out, and he agreed that that was the best idea.
The issue lies with her security deposit... legally, both parties (landlord and tenant) are required to give minimum 28 days notice to before leaving, but a shorter amount of time can be agreed upon if both parties are on board. She has said that she will be out by the end of the month... giving us about a week's notice.
Are we entitled to keep the deposit? This notice requirement is in her contract (which trickily isn't actually signed because it was originally emailed and neither her nor us pressed for it to be signed once she arrived). She has a copy of the contract and has referred to it many times, so she is aware of its contents.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

intheclouds

If she lives with you she isnt a tenant, she is a licensee and has no rights at all.

Not clear why you want to keep her deposit though, you are getting what you want, she is leaving and no actual damage has been done? Why wouldnt you give her back her deposit?

godtabh

Might no be much use now (with a contract in place) but he she isnt a tenant. She is a licensee. Kick her out asap

Mrs OBumble

With that sort of record, I'd be telling her to get out tonight, and handing her the deposit when she hands you back the keys.

Sooner she's gone, the better for all concerned.

Diamond Doll

When you refer to her paying for damages and for the cost of the gas - I can't see what damages were done, and it would be very difficult to quantify the cost of the gas. Obviously what she did was very stupid and dangerous and irresponsible, and you should get her out of the house as soon as possible, but I can't see that you have grounds to retain her security deposit. I would return it on the day she leaves, following an inspection of her room to ensure there is no damage done there.

Penn

Yeah, if she's living with you, she's not a tenant, she's a licensee. And since no contract was signed, she doesn't have to give 28 days notice (the contract probably wouldn't apply anyway even if it was signed).

Best just give her the deposit back (unless you subtract some costs from it for any damage she has done). But even then, sounds like you're better off just giving her back the deposit and be done with her altogether.

OldBean

Can you hold onto the deposit until you see the gas bill - 7 hours of gas is a LOT of gas. Compare it to your regular bill/the bill you received for the same time period last year.

mitresize5

As a landlord this is the **** that gives other landlords a bad name

She has done nothing to warrant you holding onto her deposit - in fact she's obliging you by moving out asap

groovyg

She's a licensee not a tenant so you or her don't need to give 28 days notice. For your own safety the best thing to do would be to cut your losses give her back the deposit and ask her to leave immediately otherwise you might not have a home at the ways she's carrying on.

HelpWithTenant

I didn't realize she was not an actual tenant, but a licensee. I want her out immediately - with regards to the deposit, we had agreed that we needed certain notice before she leaves. Keeping the deposit is not so much about the cost of gas (which she has agreed to repay), but about the lack of notice. Just wondering if we have a leg to stand on? We have a contract that says failure to give notice = no deposit, but it seems the contract might not hold up? Just wondering. All the feedback is really appreciated.

Captain Flaps

Agreed, it was a stupid mistake and she's offered to move out, probably sooner than she'd like so as to facilitate your wishes. Do you want to force her to serve out her notice?

Either way, what she did was silly but no damage done and the cost of gas/electricity was probably not massive. You might ask her for a small contribution to the costs (like 20 quid or something) but I can't see any grounds at all for holding on to her deposit.

Butters1979

you have mutually agreed to terminate the contract, how the hell can you think you can withhold her deposit. The legal right has nothing to do with this. Give her the deposit back and move on.
As mitresize5 just said, this is the amateur bull*** greed that gives landlords a bad name.

Butters1979

HelpWithTenant wrote: »

I didn't realize she was not an actual tenant, but a licensee. I want her out immediately - with regards to the deposit, we had agreed that we needed certain notice before she leaves. Keeping the deposit is not so much about the cost of gas (which she has agreed to repay), but about the lack of notice. Just wondering if we have a leg to stand on? We have a contract that says failure to give notice = no deposit, but it seems the contract might not hold up? Just wondering. All the feedback is really appreciated.

You try to pull that and she will just stay for 28 days. Lack of notice is not when you mutually agree. You also sounds like you are renting out when you have no idea of the laws regarding what you are doing.

foggy_lad

OP as you gave the licensee a contract(even not signed) then she is legally entitled to the notice that is mentioned in the contract so she can stay for a month if she wants and there is very little you can do apart from try to pay her to leave by guaranteeing her deposit when you get the keys back.

As soon as she is gone you need to change the locks!

Have a read of this:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/sharing_accommodation_with_your_landlord.html

Fortunately for you, you hold all the cards. You can keep her deposit and she would have to pursue you through the small claims court. You don't have to give her notice and she doesn't have to give you notice, although most licensees do as they know they need to play nice to get the deposit back from the Landlord.

As to whether or not you should keep the deposit, that's another matter.

Captain Flaps

You've told her you want her out immediately, and you now also want her to forfeit her deposit for complying with you? You sound like a nightmare to be honest.

Arbiter of Good Taste

OP you want your cake and to eat it as well. You want her out, she wants out. What's the problem. Would you prefer she decided to wait out the 28 days then? It's probably going to be more of a hassle for her to find new accommodation than for you to replace her.

I sympathised with you having to share with someone so flaky, but now you are coming across as greedy and money grubbing.

FortySeven

So the girls a bit scatter brained, fair enough , get her out but why do you feel you have the right to steal her money. That's below the belt. You should be ashamed of yourself.

bucketybuck

Thread is basically "I want to keep the money but can't think of a valid reason why, any suggestions..."

No wonder there is no trust in renting.

HelpWithTenant

HelpWithTenant wrote: »

She had left the gas stove on for almost 7 hours and the house was filled with gas.

Shouldn't there be a safety feature that shuts the gas off if there is no flame?

jlm29

ronoc wrote: »

Shouldn't there be a safety feature that shuts the gas off if there is no flame?

This was my thought too...- maybe look into that OP. It's a total contradiction. "I want her to go immediately, but I want to charge her for it".
Sounds like the OP hasn't the deposit to give if back!

Rackstar

Give the girl her deposit back. Go your separate ways.

Chalk it down to experience and don't steal her money.

Wabbit Ears

Best thing for everybody is a clean amicable split. Give her back the deposit upon return of keys. Walk away with a clear concience.

Greenmachine

Girl is a licensee even with a contract, you can ask her to leave at a moments notice. Not particularly pleasant, but those are the shakes, when you live,with a landlord. You want her out as quick as possible so, she is going to be in a tight enough spot. I would not hold onto her deposit unnecessarily.

Brutal2015

Wow... I am really sorry I asked for advice with this. I deleted the account I had used, but thought some context might downgrade some of the nasty comments - this was a friend of a friend situation, where we took in someone from overseas who was moving to Dublin and was having trouble finding affordable accommodation. It has turned into a nightmare. So, you are correct - I don't know the intricacies of the law surrounding this... we just took someone in who was vouched for by a friend and have actually paying loads of money because she leaves everything on... we are not horrible people and we are not money-grubbers. We are just in a difficult spot and I thought I might get some advice. But clearly not.

Wabbit Ears

The advice is to give her back the deposit...thats advice, just not advice you want to hear.

godtabh

HelpWithTenant wrote: »

I didn't realize she was not an actual tenant, but a licensee. I want her out immediately - with regards to the deposit, we had agreed that we needed certain notice before she leaves. Keeping the deposit is not so much about the cost of gas (which she has agreed to repay), but about the lack of notice. Just wondering if we have a leg to stand on? We have a contract that says failure to give notice = no deposit, but it seems the contract might not hold up? Just wondering. All the feedback is really appreciated.

It goes both ways. You dont have to give her notice she doesnt have to give you notice.

bucketybuck

Brutal2015 wrote: »

Wow... I am really sorry I asked for advice with this. I deleted the account I had used, but thought some context might downgrade some of the nasty comments

Just because you didn't want to hear it doesn't make it a nasty comment. :rolleyes:

Rackstar

Brutal2015 wrote: »

Wow... I am really sorry I asked for advice with this. I deleted the account I had used, but thought some context might downgrade some of the nasty comments - this was a friend of a friend situation, where we took in someone from overseas who was moving to Dublin and was having trouble finding affordable accommodation. It has turned into a nightmare. So, you are correct - I don't know the intricacies of the law surrounding this... we just took someone in who was vouched for by a friend and have actually paying loads of money because she leaves everything on... we are not horrible people and we are not money-grubbers. We are just in a difficult spot and I thought I might get some advice. But clearly not.

Clearly the arrangement means the girls rent includes bills as you've no way of breaking them down.

You came on looking for advice on how to steal money from a friend of a friend who is visiting our country. Nobody is going to help you with that. Give the girl her money, go your separate ways and leave it at that.

Magicmatilda

Brutal2015 wrote: »

Wow... I am really sorry I asked for advice with this. I deleted the account I had used, but thought some context might downgrade some of the nasty comments - this was a friend of a friend situation, where we took in someone from overseas who was moving to Dublin and was having trouble finding affordable accommodation. It has turned into a nightmare. So, you are correct - I don't know the intricacies of the law surrounding this... we just took someone in who was vouched for by a friend and have actually paying loads of money because she leaves everything on... we are not horrible people and we are not money-grubbers. We are just in a difficult spot and I thought I might get some advice. But clearly not.

You have received quite a lot of advice. Give her the deposit back - that is the overwhelming majority of the advice. You just don't like it.

Legally you can probably keep her money although she most likely could pursue you through the courts. Morally I think it would be an immoral thing to do. You would be better to let her leave ASAP and return her deposit to facilitate that.

intheclouds

What nasty comments?

You still havent explained why you want to keep her deposit?

Arbiter of Good Taste

Ah, OP, you see your mistake wasn't advising us exactly what advice you wanted everyone to give. Our bad for telling you something you didn't want to hear.

Aye Bosun

You can't legally hold onto the deposit as there has been no damage done. What I would suggest you do is withhold a portion of the deposit until all the bills have been issues, as gas is 2 monthly bill this can take some time. This avoids you having to chase her up for her share. I generally withhold €120 of a licensee's deposit to accommodate this and then return what is not used once all the bill are in.

As for notice there is not really much you can do I'm afraid, as a licensee she can leave with 1hrs notice if she wants and zero repercussion on her part, with that said, you can also kick her out at a moments notice.

I suggest you have a read of the following for info on the Rent-a-room scheme
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/owning_a_home/home_owners/rent_a_room_scheme.html

Greenmachine

Not aware of any abusive post OP. If any posters have been abusive use the report button.

Aye Bosun

I'd also advise adding the following to any licensee agreement use in future..



'The licensee will pay for any of the Landlord’s excesses or no claims bonuses that affect the insurance premiums, of the buildings and contents insurance due to any acts or omissions by the Licensee, his visitors or guests'


A lot of people on here will disagree with a licensee agreement but as an owner occupier under the rent a room scheme for a good few years now it has never failed me. To be honest it has been a very handy document to have if any issue arise. Not sure if I can offer a copy but pm me if you want one.

FortySeven

Brutal2015 wrote: »

Wow... I am really sorry I asked for advice with this. I deleted the account I had used, but thought some context might downgrade some of the nasty comments - this was a friend of a friend situation, where we took in someone from overseas who was moving to Dublin and was having trouble finding affordable accommodation. It has turned into a nightmare. So, you are correct - I don't know the intricacies of the law surrounding this... we just took someone in who was vouched for by a friend and have actually paying loads of money because she leaves everything on... we are not horrible people and we are not money-grubbers. We are just in a difficult spot and I thought I might get some advice. But clearly not.

Wow. The charm is strong in this one.
Not money grubber >>
Stealing deposit<<
Stealing _<>

Butters1979

Brutal2015 wrote: »

Wow... I am really sorry I asked for advice with this. I deleted the account I had used, but thought some context might downgrade some of the nasty comments - this was a friend of a friend situation, where we took in someone from overseas who was moving to Dublin and was having trouble finding affordable accommodation. It has turned into a nightmare. So, you are correct - I don't know the intricacies of the law surrounding this... we just took someone in who was vouched for by a friend and have actually paying loads of money because she leaves everything on... we are not horrible people and we are not money-grubbers. We are just in a difficult spot and I thought I might get some advice. But clearly not.

Nasty comments? Please explain to us how you feel when both of you agree that she move out constitutes her breaching the 28 day notice in the contract and not you?
You didn't ask for advice, you were checking if your *ss was covered when you hold on to her deposit for frivolous reasons.

Let's break down your OP.

HelpWithTenant wrote: »

both parties (landlord and tenant) are required to give minimum 28 days notice to before leaving, but a shorter amount of time can be agreed upon if both parties are on board.

And you already said:

HelpWithTenant wrote: »

She said she would be moving out, and he agreed that that was the best idea.

So for your question, about a contract neither of you signed anyway:

HelpWithTenant wrote: »

which trickily isn't actually signed

HelpWithTenant wrote: »

Are we entitled to keep the deposit? This notice requirement is in her contract

The answer is no, and you know the answer is no. You always knew. You’re checking you're covered.
What you are entitled to and what you could get a way with are 2 different things.

lawred2

intheclouds wrote: »

If she lives with you she isnt a tenant, she is a licensee and has no rights at all.

Not clear why you want to keep her deposit though, you are getting what you want, she is leaving and no actual damage has been done? Why wouldnt you give her back her deposit?

exactly

take 50 quid for the gas and say best of luck..

lawred2

HelpWithTenant wrote: »

I didn't realize she was not an actual tenant, but a licensee. I want her out immediately - with regards to the deposit, we had agreed that we needed certain notice before she leaves. Keeping the deposit is not so much about the cost of gas (which she has agreed to repay), but about the lack of notice. Just wondering if we have a leg to stand on? We have a contract that says failure to give notice = no deposit, but it seems the contract might not hold up? Just wondering. All the feedback is really appreciated.

but your husband asked her to leave no? and you all agreed that end of month would be best?

so why would you expect notice?

sounds like a case of having your cake and eating it too.

Not returning her deposit is an old fashioned case of thievery. I don't buy this friend of a friend thing. Because I certainly wouldn't risk upsetting a friend by treating one of their friends so shabbily.

But then again; I wouldn't countenance stealing a lodger's deposit in the first place.

Dial Hard

The OP has closed both of her accounts so I'm not sure there's much point in continued appeals for her to see reason.

esforum

Your kicking her out OP, why in hells name would you keep a deposit for lack of notice?

Emme

OP, ask your lodger to leave and return her deposit so she can find somewhere else. Just say the arrangement isn't working out and you're not compatible.

The same day you ask her to leave change the locks.

She may be scatterbrained but she sounds like a bit of a nutter so stay on her right side especially as she works very close by.

lawred2

esforum wrote: »

7 hours of gas isnt free

poster didn't say anything about anything being free

just that no damage was done

Butters1979

esforum wrote: »

7 hours of gas isnt free

It's also not the cost of a full deposit. The lodger already agreed to pay for the gas.

OP already said she wanted to keep the deposit because of the lack of 28 days notice. Despite admitting they agreed to shorter notice.

OP is trying to keep some poor girls deposit for frivolous reasons, I suspect they already decided to do so, but were checking here under anonymity could they get a way with it.

mattaiuseire

I note the OP has closed her second account and clearly didn't receive the 'advice' they were hoping to receive.

It would a silly thing to do, to withhold a full deposit. I can assure the OP this would not be looked upon favourably if they were to face the civil courts.

A contract was formed and agreed whether or not the licensee signed it can be irrelevant, as long as it can be shown that it was agreed by both parties.
Certain terms of the agreement however may be frowned upon if they are unreasonable. This will include a 28 day retainer term if <28 days notice is provided when the tenant vacates.
It is wholly reasonable to retain part of a deposit if bills are found to be unpaid, if damage is caused to any fixtures, fittings and furnishings that are in excess of normal wear and tear; but it is wholly unreasonable to retain the full amount for your reasons stated.

Although the girl sounds like a half-wit with little consideration for others, the OP would be wise to hand the deposit back and move on with their life.

athtrasna

As the OP has closed their accounts there is no point in the thread remaining open.

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