The launch of Education Equality December 12th 2015

recedite

Orion wrote: »

Sure you're not. Just a coincidence that you're singing Nugent's theme song then.

Calling me a liar now? You're just embarrassing yourself.

Hotblack Desiato

Orion I asked you about Equate and you answered about Education Equality...

looksee

Mod: There appears to be a note of aggression creeping into what was a reasonable discussion. You are all entitled to your opinions, please try and share them in a civil manner.

Ok, thank you, move on now please.

robindch

Orion wrote: »

Nugent is a bully and his disciples do what he says.

Orion - while Michael Nugent is a public figure and therefore open, unfortunately, to the kinds of comments which people often make in the public space about public figures, Michael is also a poster here in A+A and comments about him are, therefore, subject to the same A+A rules which we all know and love and which apply equally to all forum posters.

None of that now.

Thanking youze.

expectationlost

Education Equality have registered with SIPO as a third party http://www.sipo.gov.ie/en/Reports/Register-of-Third-Parties/

recedite

expectationlost wrote: »

Education Equality have registered with SIPO as a third party http://www.sipo.gov.ie/en/Reports/Register-of-Third-Parties/

That is a good move, and now that they are back on track, I think we would all wish the campaign every success in 2018, and the best of luck.

expectationlost

recedite wrote: »

That is a good move, and now that they are back on track, I think we would all wish the campaign every success in 2018, and the best of luck.

they don't think so, they think its opression https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/this-oppression-would-suit-authoritarian-regime-36414554.html after reading I don't know why the signed up.

heres their explanation

https://www.educationequality.ie/news

Background to Education Equality
​
In July 2015 the Humanist Association of Ireland (HAI) hosted a meeting on equality in education with a number of invited guests from outside the humanist membership. A number of informal meetings were subsequently held.
​
A clear need for a more formal, independent structure was identified during that time.



Formation of Education Equality
​
Education Equality was formed at an AGM in the basement of Doheny & Nesbitt pub in October 2015 when a constitution was adopted and a committee elected democratically. The AGM was an open event, advertised widely.
​
Donations to Education Equality
​
Education Equality sought funding from the Humanist Association of Ireland to “kick-start its efforts to achieve religious equality in the education system”. Two grants were made, one in 2015 and one in 2016.

they aren't clear on the timeline or degree of seperation, if you look back at HAI's minutes

At a HAI Board meeting of 17th August 2015, HAI member R Digh, on behalf of the newly formed Education Equality startup committee, outlined their campaign and objectives. The Board gave their full support to Education Equality. Additionally the Board agreed to make a contribution of €10,000 as a startup fund for the group.

https://www.humanism.ie/2015/09/hai-e-newsletter-september-2015-2/


DId Atheist Ireland complain about Education Equality or did they query the Humanist Associations actions (which subsequently effected EE?)



https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/humanist-group-reported-to-sipo-over-10-000-donation-1.3329039

April Duff, Education Equality legal officer, said the Sipo decision was “frustrating” for the small group, and said the returned grant funding was due to last the organisation “many years”.

is that how funding works ?

recedite

expectationlost wrote: »

DId Atheist Ireland complaint about Education Equality or did they query the Humanist Associations actions (which subsequently effected EE?)

According to this article, the atheists reported the humanists, because of some personal row and/or defections between them.
That makes good newspaper copy, but does not really make a lot of sense to me.
As the receiver of the donations, the onus was really on EE to declare them to SIPO. Anyway, in this case I think there was an overlap of personnel between EE and Humanist Assoc, so you can't blame one or the other; all of them overlooked or ignored the requirements.

Regarding the timeline, because the money was split over two years, they were able to keep most of it. But I think this was a matter of luck. If they were smart, they would have transferred €2500 in the first year, and then the same again every year for 5 years.

The organisation received €2,000 in one year, and €8,000 the next from the Humanist Association of Ireland, and had to return €5,500 of the second donation, or face legal action for breaching political finance law.

Presumably they can still do this, and get the money back over the next few years. There's some free advice for you now, all you EE people out there

I'm not buying this idea that they were only a poor group of volunteers, ignorant of the laws of the land, who innocently accepted a very modest donation not knowing it would attract the attention of anti-corruption legislation.
Its entirely fair that if you are regularly going to be accepting €2500 in a wad of cash, you should know enough about the law to be able to fully document the money and comply with the law. That is not oppression.

Hotblack Desiato

I don't know what AI's motivation was, but they've been very careful to comply with the law, HAI less so apparently. There's also the issue of wedding celebrations as an income stream, one denied to AI (not that I think they'd want it or that people would want 'atheist' weddings) because they are explicitly a political campaigning organisation, however the law prohibits secular wedding celebrant organisations from political campaigning.

There's perhaps a bit of needle there as AI seem to feel HAI are trying to have it both ways, get involved in campaigning for a more secular/humanist Ireland while at the same time making money out of weddings. Or it could be a JPF / PFJ type thing

AI consider the law unfair as churches are not prevented from being 'political' while also making large tax-free income streams from weddings etc. so perhaps their intention was to highlight how ludicrous this law is while churches are getting away with doing whatever they want.

recedite

I'd imagine for AI it was a bit like that feeling you get when stuck in a long line of traffic, and you are watching other drivers sailing past in the bus lane at high speed.
Its very frustrating to comply fully with the law when others are not.
But the whole whistleblower thing is fraught with difficulty. Even if its the right thing to do, you can still expect to be vilified by some.

I think when the dust settles, things will have improved all round, and we can say that Atheist Ireland has "done the state some service".

smacl

recedite wrote: »

According to this article, the atheists reported the humanists, because of some personal row and/or defections between them. That makes good newspaper copy, but does not really make a lot of sense to me. As the receiver of the donations, the onus was really on EE to declare them to SIPO. Anyway, in this case I think there was an overlap of personnel between EE and Humanist Assoc, so you can't blame one or the other; all of them overlooked or ignored the requirements.

At this stage SIPO should probably consider directly auditing all similar organisations, as they seem to primarily be reacting to complaints and at a guess are missing considerably more than they're catching.

expectationlost

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I don't know what AI's motivation was, but they've been very careful to comply with the law, HAI less so apparently. There's also the issue of wedding celebrations as an income stream, one denied to AI (not that I think they'd want it or that people would want 'atheist' weddings) because they are explicitly a political campaigning organisation, however the law prohibits secular wedding celebrant organisations from political campaigning.

There's perhaps a bit of needle there as AI seem to feel HAI are trying to have it both ways, get involved in campaigning for a more secular/humanist Ireland while at the same time making money out of weddings. Or it could be a JPF / PFJ type thing

AI consider the law unfair as churches are not prevented from being 'political' while also making large tax-free income streams from weddings etc. so perhaps their intention was to highlight how ludicrous this law is while churches are getting away with doing whatever they want.

and the probem i think Athiest ireland has is with the government not the humanists, but you wont' read that in the the IT

expectationlost

smacl wrote: »

At this stage SIPO should probably consider directly auditing all similar organisations, as they seem to primarily be reacting to complaints and at a guess are missing considerably more than they're catching.

they don't have the resources.

smacl

expectationlost wrote: »

they don't have the resources.

I which case you feel that they should audit a random sub-sample of those organisations that have a large enough turnover to merit their attention, much as the revenue does. If organisations are aware that SIPO operates in a purely reactive manner, SIPO can effectively be ignored in very many circumstances. Standards are of little value unless those that they apply to are subject to random testing.

recedite

I see EE is planning to dissolve itself at the AGM in two weeks time, and reform as a limited company.
I'm guessing the whole SIPO business has made the committee members realise that they could be personally liable in the event of any illegality by the association.

expectationlost

Charities (Human Rights) Bill 2018

Bill entitled an Act to amend the Charities Act 2009 to include the advancement of human rights as a charitable purpose, and to remove the advancement of religion as a charitable purpose. https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/bills/bill/2018/88/ Sponsored by: Me Devine; Fintan Warfield; Paul Gavan

Source: Private Member

Originating House: Seanad reann

not sure if this will ever get very far

recedite

Three shinners It has no chance while the FG/FF alliance holds.
Made me smile though. It will serve a useful purpose if it makes a few people think about the word "charitable".
What it means, or should mean.

expectationlost

article in the SBP about equate where they say they were shut down becuase they were deluged by question via sipo from the church of ireland/consultant (not atheist ireland?) https://www.businesspost.ie/news/fix-ambiguous-electoral-act-says-baptism-barrier-campaigner-428047 its strange article in that it talks about funding of this NGO but never mentions who was funding it (the one foundation). they mention Soros but not declan ryan

michael barron formely of equate has thread on it with link to podcast I havn't listened to https://twitter.com/MichaelNBarron/status/1051382336036761600

the ICCL had a talk to the other day about this, all about how they can't fundraise to protect people but rarely mention they were dependent on a very few rich people for their activities. https://twitter.com/ICCLtweet/status/1050385609330692097

SIPO don't help, changing their rulings all the time

Irish Times has similar article but does name major funder https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/group-against-baptism-bar-derailed-after-complaints-1.3660330

recedite

Some very dishonest reporting there with the BP saying SIPO gave them "a clean bill of health" in 2017 and the IT saying..

A civil society group which lobbied in favour of removing the so-called Baptism barrier from Irish schools says a campaign of “groundless” complaints was partially to blame for its shutdown. Equate, a civil society organisation, says complaints from “vested interests” triggered a number of time-consuming inquiries from the State’s ethics watchdog, the Standards in Public Office Commission (Sipo).
The organisation says internal documents released under the Freedom of Information Act show the commission was satisfied with Equate’s responses and the complaints were closed.

Nowhere is it reported that SIPO was only satisfied after Equate begrudgingly handed back the irregular donations.


I'm sure all the former equate personalities are a bit annoyed these days, because they complied with SIPO and the law, whereas a year later Amnesty Ireland managed to face SIPO down (albeit with the use of some political chicanery and skullduggery that was never quite explained...)

expectationlost

https://www.irishcatholic.com/bankrolling-restrictions-on-religion/ Irish Catholic on the whole equate thing based on the fOI's they have

would really like to more about the one foundation donating when it didn't exist

Hotblack Desiato

There's a delicious irony in the Irish Catholic getting its knickers in a twist about campaigns and funding.

expectationlost

expectationlost wrote: »

article in the SBP about equate where they say they were shut down becuase they were deluged by question via sipo from the church of ireland/consultant (not atheist ireland?) https://www.businesspost.ie/news/fix-ambiguous-electoral-act-says-baptism-barrier-campaigner-428047 its strange article in that it talks about funding of this NGO but never mentions who was funding it (the one foundation). they mention Soros but not declan ryan

michael barron formely of equate has thread on it with link to podcast I havn't listened to https://twitter.com/MichaelNBarron/status/1051382336036761600

the ICCL had a talk to the other day about this, all about how they can't fundraise to protect people but rarely mention they were dependent on a very few rich people for their activities. https://twitter.com/ICCLtweet/status/1050385609330692097

SIPO don't help, changing their rulings all the time

Irish Times has similar article but does name major funder https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/group-against-baptism-bar-derailed-after-complaints-1.3660330

SBP articles says SBP "Equate was forced to wind down after continued complaints about their funding"
IT article says "Equate says difficulties in fundraising due to the probe meant the organisation was forced to wind up after just over 2 yrs"


Equate said "We set up in October 2015 as a time limited catalyst organisation with the stated aim of furthering equality in education."




https://www.facebook.com/equateireland/posts/517796848590692?__tn__=-R

expectationlost

expectationlost wrote: »

https://www.irishcatholic.com/bankrolling-restrictions-on-religion/ Irish Catholic on the whole equate thing based on the fOI's they have

would really like to more about the one foundation donating when it didn't exist

Deirdre Mortell said in 2013 one week after stepping down as CEO "The last grants are going out in 2013-2014 and then it will wind down. The One Foundation" https://www.kildarestreet.com/committees/?id=2013-07-10a.180


and again Equate said "We set up in October 2015" https://www.facebook.com/equateireland/posts/517796848590692?__tn__=-R