The future of Cork's N40 South Ring Road

marno21

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Topography and road layout are huge issues in Cork.

No bridge between Michael Collins bridge and the tunnel. No viable north south route between Douglas and where a new bridge will cross the Lee around Pairc Ui Chaoimh.

No scope to build any bridge between Passage and Rushbrooke.

NRR will help but not a huge amount IMO.

Highlighting a deeper problem, plenty of other cities have similar problems worldwide. However in other cities, the attitude is taken that if a complex engineering solution is required (the mad idea of a tunnel perhaps), that it's worth it. However in this lovely country if it can be done half arsed on the cheap or not at all and ruled out as "pie in the sky" that's what'll happen.

The North Ring Road is a prime example here. Instead of building the engineering challenging and expensive western element, which is direct and useful, instead we will plough ahead with the eastern element which will take cars on a drive around Glanmire and end up ploughing yet more traffic into Dunkettle

Chris_5339762

That said, linking the future M20 with the M8 is probably more beneficial than linking the M20 with the N22 at Ballincollig. But realistically, both of these things are needed.

mydiscworld

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Topography and road layout are huge issues in Cork.

No bridge between Michael Collins bridge and the tunnel. No viable north south route between Douglas and where a new bridge will cross the Lee around Pairc Ui Chaoimh.

No scope to build any bridge between Passage and Rushbrooke.

NRR will help but not a huge amount IMO.

Why can't this be done? Small stretch of water but need a bridge that allows boats to pass

AugustusMinimus

mydiscworld wrote: »

Why can't this be done? Small stretch of water but need a bridge that allows boats to pass

When I say scope, I actually meant will.

My view is that a tidal barrier / bridge could be built in one go between Passage and Rushbrooke. The road would also need upgrading between Rushbrooke and The N25.

AugustusMinimus

Huge crash last night involving a tractor. Motorway restrictions are badly needed. I’ve seen tractors doing 40kph on that road causing mayhem with people unable to pass causing chaos.

Chris_5339762

mydiscworld wrote: »

Why can't this be done? Small stretch of water but need a bridge that allows boats to pass

I don't think theres any reason it couldn't be done, but it would have to be a very high level bridge. It would be cheaper probably to build the North Ring in its entirety and abandon the South Ring than it would to bypass the South Ring by hopping onto Cobh. And also, where would you put a motorway to link up Cobh/Rushbrook to the N25, without destroying Fota Island anyway.

hans aus dtschl

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Motorway restrictions are badly needed. I’ve seen tractors doing 40kph on that road causing mayhem with people unable to pass causing chaos.

Again though, there needs to be a suitable alternative route too, particularly for Tractors, slow construction machinery and cyclists. The N40 in its current state is no place for any of those.
Direct routes from Curraheen to Mahon are thin on the ground.

On the concept of an outer link via Cobh and Passage, the R624 (Fota, Cobh) is of very low quality. We all think of engineering solutions like bridges and tunnels, but the ferry would be fine in the medium term if the links on either side were better. Probably low cost. If you could tempt more East Cork people to go to Ringaskiddy via the ferry it would relieve the tunnel.

marno21

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Again though, there needs to be a suitable alternative route too, particularly for Tractors, slow construction machinery and cyclists. The N40 in its current state is no place for any of those.
Direct routes from Curraheen to Mahon are thin on the ground.

On the concept of an outer link via Cobh and Passage, the R624 (Fota, Cobh) is of very low quality. We all think of engineering solutions like bridges and tunnels, but the ferry would be fine in the medium term if the links on either side were better. Probably low cost. If you could tempt more East Cork people to go to Ringaskiddy via the ferry it would relieve the tunnel.

Curraheen - Mahon

Curraheen Road - Bishopstown Road - Western Road - South Mall - South City Link - Boreenmanna Road - Skehard Road

Truckermal

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Huge crash last night involving a tractor. Motorway restrictions are badly needed. I’ve seen tractors doing 40kph on that road causing mayhem with people unable to pass causing chaos.

Better still I've passed tractors/teleporters heading eastbound in the middle lane and this is before the junction for the Kinsale junction! Like every other city a lot of the traffic chaos is down to bad driver's!

hans aus dtschl

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

I don't think theres any reason it couldn't be done, but it would have to be a very high level bridge. It would be cheaper probably to build the North Ring in its entirety and abandon the South Ring than it would to bypass the South Ring by hopping onto Cobh. And also, where would you put a motorway to link up Cobh/Rushbrook to the N25, without destroying Fota Island anyway.

There actually is room to the east of Fota estate. The bridges are the choke points.

If you look at Cork geographically, there's an absolute fortune of undeveloped space on Great Island, with a rail line but poor quality road.

Long-term there will need to be a tidal barrier, so beginning that action by creating a new route between Rossleague and Weir Island is one way to go.

hans aus dtschl

marno21 wrote: »

Curraheen - Mahon

Curraheen Road - Bishopstown Road - Western Road - South Mall - South City Link - Boreenmanna Road - Skehard Road

With a tractor or heavy machinery? That's not ideal. You really don't want to bring heavy machinery through the city centre.
On a bicycle it's not as bad and you might use the greenway etc, but again, the desire line from Curraheen to Mahon isn't ever really via the city centre: you'd be forever.

My main point is that upgrading the N40 to M40 is not a simple documentation exercise.

Pete_Cavan

Tender issued today (on a Sunday of all days!) for N40 Ten T Transport Infrastructure Improvement Project;

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/202508/0/0?returnUrl=ctm/Supplier/publictenders&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE

Detailed description:

Cork City Council in partnership with Transport Infrastructure Ireland propose to carry out the appraisal and options selection of the N40 Ten T Transport Infrastructure Improvement Project. 

 The services to be provided include but are not limited to all services necessary and desirable for the purposeful management and delivery of Phase 1 (Concept and Feasibility) and Phase 2 (Options Selection), of the Transport Infrastructure Ireland Project Management Guidelines PE-PMG-02041 (TII PMG), the associated Transport Infrastructure Ireland Project Appraisal Guidelines (TII PAG), Stage 1 and 2 of the Government's Public Spending Code 2019 (PSC) and Department of Transport Common Appraisal Framework (DoT CAF).

N40 Ten T Transport Infrastructure Improvement Technical consultancy services for the management and delivery of Phase 1 and Phase 2 inc. additional items of TII Project Management Guidelines

Not sure what the scope here is really, a quick search for the project name only throws up this document;

https://www.tii.ie/tii-library/strategic-planning/strategic-reports/N40-Demand-Management-Study-June-2017.pdf

Chris_5339762

Interesting. Probably demand management, or something like that though - I can't see them upgrade wholesale unless they are being REALLY organised, which i can't imagine in this country!

Anyway the badly needed widening from the N40/future-M28 junction to the Kinsale Road junction will be fought hammer, tooth and nail by everyone in Douglas.

alanucc

From the brief:

The N40 Cork South Ring Road (SRR) is a National Primary Road that runs between the Dunkettle Interchange to the east of Cork City and the Poulavone Interchange (N22) to the southwest of Cork City and encompasses 11 grade separated junctions. The purpose of the scheme is:

To identify the impact on the N40 of the scheduled completion of the committed Dunkettle Interchange Upgrade Scheme and any potential issues that may result following its implementation

To assess the deficiencies of the existing N40 Transportation Corridor and identify the potential solutions to existing problems including deficiencies that may compromise its resilience as a Core TEN T route.

To assess and identify impacts and potential mitigation measures that may be required on the N40 Transportation Corridor following from completion of planned complementary schemes and projected population growth envisaged for the region within the context of the Cork Metropolitan Area Transport Strategy (CMATS) 

KrisW1001

Road user pricing has been suggested for M50 already, to spread the impact of tolling to all road users, not just the ones who cross the Liffey.

For N40, the land needed to widen the road is already there, but it would involve building an elevated roadway just to the south of the current mainline. It won’t be cheap, but at the same time, it won’t encroach on some solicitor’s back garden, so the chances of it getting planning are greater.

I’d like to see offline works done that could allow one of the Eastbound junctions to be closed - these two exits being so close are a major source of weaving and collisions when traffic volume increases. Also useful would be access to Douglas for Westbound traffic without having to come back up from Rochestown.

But I can’t help thinking that there’s a better bang for the buck in providing a separate east-west route, completely south of Douglas that would take the strain off this section - something connecting the two sides of Douglas together, and then something from N28 (Ringaskiddy road) to N27 (Airport road), like this, maybe: (Yeah, I know, horrible gradients at N28 side..)

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118206848#Comment_118206848

This bit sounds strange to me: " To identify the impact on the N40 of the scheduled completion of the committed Dunkettle Interchange Upgrade Scheme and any potential issues that may result following its implementation " Surely this should have been done before Dunkettle started? And surely we already know that the N40 is in trouble soon after Dunkettle and M28 are done? Is it not a bit late to be analysing our purchase decision, after we have purchased?

At least they might address the elephant in the room: "the deficiencies of the existing N40 Transportation Corridor" as they describe it is the high level of car dependency, directly resulting from poor planning and sprawl which was largely facilitated by....the building of the N40.

I know I keep harping on about it, but if it's easier, cheaper and faster to drive than to use sustainable transport, then people are going to drive. And more N40 capacity will mean more of same. The volumes of traffic on the N40 in a city as small as Cork aren't normal.

Chris_5339762

The M28 to airport link would be very useful, but if it was used by Carrigaline etc traffic as an alternative to the N40 it would completely clog up the Kinsale Road Roundabout. But I've said it before - the problem is that the N40 (and Dunkettle) are pretty much unavoidable. You try doing any long drive anywhere near to Cork and you just have to go on the N40. Its unavoidable.

I still thing the best option is for the new M28 to join the N40 west of the Douglas flyover. Rather than making the flyover itself D3, just simply take the slip coming off the M28 going west, and continue it alongside the current route, simply joining it to the west of the flyover. Avoids a messy construction or the actual widening of the flyover structure, and there you have it. Its 1 mile worth.

Trouble is, widening an elevated flyover just simply won't wash thesedays I fear, even though the chronic disaster that will be a completed Dunkettle and a completed M28 funneling over the D2 Douglas flyover will occur. It'll be the worst bottleneck in the country.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118208243#Comment_118208243

Exactly.

There Is No Alternative.

They can play around with the N40 all they want, but the lack of alternatives to the N40 itself is the problem. It can't do both bypass and distributor.

KrisW1001

Rather than making the flyover itself D3, just simply take the slip coming off the M28 going west, and continue it alongside the current route, simply joining it to the west of the flyover. 

But where would you put it? If it’s alongside the existing N40, then there’s no reason to keep it separate for its whole length. If it’s not there, then you must be much further south, because there’s nowhere else it can run through Douglas itself.

The short bridge I marked, connecting the Grange Road (R851) with the Carrigaline Road (R855) would also divert a lot of traffic away from N40

I’m a big believer in having a network of safe, smaller roads, rather than funnelling everything onto a massive trunk route. The collector/distributor model, of which N40 is a perfect example, came from the USA, where they had very few existing routes in place; in Ireland, where there always seems to be a “main road” and a “back road” to everywhere, it never made a lot of sense to me to not use those existing ways.

I think the best solution for N40 long term is to divert as much local traffic off it as possible, and restore it to its alleged original purpose of providing a way for long-distance traffic to avoid Cork.

Aontachtoir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210459#Comment_118210459

Also, build the North Ring Road to complete the N40 ring and give cross-city traffic an alternative to going through Douglas or the city centre (with or without a toll on the tunnel to push them that way).

Chris_5339762

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210459#Comment_118210459

I'd keep the slip next to the flyover because it would be the least intrusive way of doing it, yet you wouldn't have to touch the current flyover structure. If you so much as have to touch the current flyover, disruption would be huge.

DylanQuestion

With so many on and off ramps, and half of the southside of the city being outside the N40, this a distributor road, not a bypass. All it bypasses is the city centre for north-south traffic (although a lot of that when it comes to south west-north west is funnelled through Sundays Well instead). The Douglas West on ramp should be closed. I would say the Rochestown and Maryborough ones should be too, but then you're funnelling a lot of traffic onto the Well Road to get to Mahon. I don't know if the Douglas Road can handle all that new traffic, but as is, the N40 is not a bypass but a city distributor road. And as someone said above, it can't be both at once. I definitely agree that a road should be made to connect the N28 and N27. This way cars going to the city centre from Carrigaline aren't forced onto the N40/Maryborough Hill and will stay on the N27. The only issue then is can the Kinsale Road Roundabout handle all that new traffic, and will it make the Cork section of the M28 pointless

I also wonder if it would be feasible to make a connection from the Rochestown Road across to Jacob's Island by the empty public land west of Centra. Make it so cars going this way (i.e. out of Jacob's Island and onto the Mahon Flyover) can't turn right onto the N40 Westbound. A lot of Rochestown and Passage West would then be able to access Mahon without having to go near the N40 like they do at present. The issue here is getting over the Passage Railway Greenway, and its proximity to houses which understandably wouldn't want a busy road appearing out of nowhere next to their houses

hans aus dtschl

I would not like to see that Passage to Mahon link ever being built, if I'm honest. I don't think it makes sense to be encouraging a driving link between Passage/Rochestown and Mahon. It's a 10 minute cycle or a or 30 minute walk, I don't think a better driving link at this point is the ideal solution. I'd be happy to see mass transit use the greenway route but wouldn't be happy to see a road go in there.