Dynamo hub advice

moggie123

I was thinking of putting a dynamo hub onto a touring bike.I want to be able to use it for lights and charging phone/garmin . i do a lot of camping and there can be little opportunity to charge stuff for a couple of days also I like the idea of using the energy from the bike . so ive a couple of questions;
did anyone ever do this particularly in regard to charging phone ? ,is it worth it ?and do modern dynamos actually hav any rolling resistance? Also any recommended brands/sites ? Thanks

ford2600

http://www.sportpursuit.com/catalog/product/view/id/475680

One option

Shimano are at cheaper end(but for what you want perfectly fine). Rose will build wheel cheaper than most circa €100=150 depending on spec)

Shutter precision and SON are at the more expensive end.

Luxus U from B & M will light the road and also charge phone. presume there are others.

Fitting light to dynamo is simple and being tidy with cabling takes some time(I may have sinned here previously)

Peterwhitecycles is great for info but not so good with prices!!

So old threads here might be of use

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057219008

moggie123

Thanks very much ..a lot to go on here ......it all seems relatively pricey though .....at first glance. Ill build the wheel myself suppose that will lower it a bit

cdaly_

You won't actually build the wheel much cheaper than buying it from Rose. As I understand it, the Luxus U will either light the road or charge the phone but not both at the same time. I would recommend getting a powerbank and charge that while you ride (as well as topping it up whenever you can plug it in). Then you can charge phone and other devices at leisure. Get a 2 amp charger for the powerbank rather than a standard micro usb charger as it will charge faster that way.

I don't notice the rolling resistance from using my dynamo though I leave lights on all the time. There is no pressure on tyre resistance like you get from a bottle dynamo and very little unloaded drag from a hub dynamo.

Wishbone Ash

Thread Hijack!

Are there any cycle shops in the general Dublin area that will supply and fit a hub dynamo? I'm thinking on going down this road but have no interest in doing it myself.

Presumably it would be better to fit it to a new bike than retro fit to an existing bike? I'm kinda thinking of getting a bike with mudguards for a change so also considering a hub dynamo while I'm at it.

ford2600

moggie123 wrote: »

Thanks very much ..a lot to go on here ......it all seems relatively pricey though .....at first glance. Ill build the wheel myself suppose that will lower it a bit

If for a touring bike, this wide and heavy build would work
http://www.rosebikes.com/article/shimano-dh-3n31-with-xtreme-sari-t-19-r-28700-c-atb-front-wheel-716134/aid:716136

With the Luxos U you'd be out about €200.

You wouldn't get the SP or SON hubs for that!!!!

ted1

This is the built one that Santa might be bringing me.

http://www.rosebikes.com/article/road-front-wheel-28700-c-mavic-cxp-33dh-3n80/aid:716428

moggie123

cdaly_ wrote: »

You won't actually build the wheel much cheaper than buying it from Rose. As I understand it, the Luxus U will either light the road or charge the phone but not both at the same time. I would recommend getting a powerbank and charge that while you ride (as well as topping it up whenever you can plug it in). Then you can charge phone and other devices at leisure. Get a 2 amp charger for the powerbank rather than a standard micro usb charger as it will charge faster that way.

I don't notice the rolling resistance from using my dynamo though I leave lights on all the time. There is no pressure on tyre resistance like you get from a bottle dynamo and very little unloaded drag from a hub dynamo.

Add your reply here.thanks for info. but tbh Im not sure what you mean by 2 amp charger ? I hav a powerbank with a standard usb imput charging port with the relevant adaptor you think it would charge too slow ? also I was look on feebay uk and there is a modern sturmey archer hub for 36ish euro ! are these any good I wonder.

cdaly_

USB specification is for a usb port to supply 500mA and this is what a phone charger will supply. OTOH, the likes of a tablet/iPad requires more power to charge and their chargers supply around 2.1A. That should charge your powerbank faster when you're having a well-earned pint mid-tour. The dynamo will likely only top up a powerbank, not charge it from empty.

The Sturmey Archer hub you mention only puts out 2.4W which will only power a front light while various others put out 3W which will power both front and rear lights. I'd recommend a 3W hub for usb charging.

cdaly_

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Thread Hijack!

Are there any cycle shops in the general Dublin area that will supply and fit a hub dynamo? I'm thinking on going down this road but have no interest in doing it myself.

Presumably it would be better to fit it to a new bike than retro fit to an existing bike? I'm kinda thinking of getting a bike with mudguards for a change so also considering a hub dynamo while I'm at it.

You're just changing the front wheel and bolting on a couple of lamps. Very easy to do, dunno why you wouldn't diy. Retrofit is no problem, no need for a new bike.

lennymc

i bought a shimano hub on a rigida rim for about 57 euros delivered on ebay. have done two winters on it (circa 5k km) and it has been uneventfully reliable. I have a edelux light, it's good for dark dark roads, and i have a rear light running from it aswell. Simple to fit, then in the summer I take it off.

@cdaly - i saw you this morning. The Thorne looks very well (I actually saw you a few times and didnt know it was you but remember the bike!!)

cdaly_

lennymc wrote: »

The Thorne looks very well

I'm sure it's the rider lending the good looks to the bike!... :cool:

moggie123

Thanks to all for posts it's really clarified the issues involved. ... might invoke the 'santa' clause to get this done.

ford2600

moggie123 wrote: »

Thanks to all for posts it's really clarified the issues involved. ... might invoke the 'santa' clause to get this done.

http://m.banggood.com/...r-Bank-p-953908.html

I have the 12000 mAh version. Charges devices at 2amp, so quick.

Charged s5 from 10% to full 5 times. Heavy but 350g isn't much in terms of camping I suppose.

Mec-a-nic

moggie123 wrote: »

Thanks to all for posts it's really clarified the issues involved. ... might invoke the 'santa' clause to get this done.

I've hub-dynamo'd up two bikes now, a cheap and cheerful Shimano and a sleek SP on the tourer.

Some points to note - make sure you get a 3Watt dynamo for maximum output (not the cheapo 2.4W). Beware, the converters for turning this 6V ac into 5V dc for some reason, can be quite expensive on their own. At the end of the day, these dynamos will only provide a 0.5A (500mA) USB trickle charge, so when you're not charging a device, you should be charging a rechargeable battery pack so you can top up devices when at camp.

Lumen

Mec-a-nic wrote: »

Some points to note - make sure you get a 3Watt dynamo for maximum output (not the cheapo 2.4W)

Are the 2.4W ones for front light only, whereas the 3.0W are intended to have a 0.6W feed for the rear?

Mec-a-nic

Lumen wrote: »

Are the 2.4W ones for front light only, whereas the 3.0W are intended to have a 0.6W feed for the rear?

What you said was correct, and was designed back when front and back lights were inefficient bulbs (and German standards). Nowadays, the lights are all LED and 2.4W is more than enough to drive both. However, if one wants to charge electronics, then 3W dynamos should be used to guarantee the minimum 0.5A output. (W = VA)

Lumen

Mec-a-nic wrote: »

What you said was correct, and was designed back when front and back lights were inefficient bulbs (and German standards). Nowadays, the lights are all LED and 2.4W is more than enough to drive both. However, if one wants to charge electronics, then 3W dynamos should be used to guarantee the minimum 0.5A output. (W = VA)

The Luxos U (which I have) claims to output 5V @ 1A through the USB.

http://blog.dutchbikebits.com/2012/01/selecting-and-installing-dynamo.html

A bicycle dynamo is an example of a constant current source. Bicycle dynamos are rated at 6 V 3 W but what this really means is that they are current sources which attempt to deliver half an amp across whatever load is connected. The expected load of a rear and front light together is the equivalent of 12 ohms. A dynamo tries to supply sufficient voltage always to deliver the same current. With a short circuit, the dynamo will still deliver about 0.5 A at zero volts, but with an open circuit the dynamo will produce so high a voltage as it can in an attempt to deliver 0.5 amps.

So I guess the Luxus transforms 10V @ 0.5A to 5V @ 1A.

Or something. I couldn't even count coins for a coffee earlier so secondary level physics is well beyond me.

Wishbone Ash

cdaly_ wrote: »

You're just changing the front wheel and bolting on a couple of lamps. Very easy to do, dunno why you wouldn't diy. Retrofit is no problem, no need for a new bike.

Probably because I've managed to get through life so far with absolutely no understanding of anything related to electricity/electronics. When I hear terms like watts, volts, amps, resistors etc. the shutters come down in my brain.

So do I order the hub dynamo, the cables, the lights, the light fittings etc, online and then bring the hub to a wheelbuilder to put it in a wheel? Problem is, reading the posts above by Mec-a-nic, Lumen etc. shows I haven't a clue what power I need. I'd like to to run a fairly good front light (suitable for unlit roads) and a rear light. Hence the reason why I prefer to pay someone to do all this for me.

Mec-a-nic

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I'd like to to run a fairly good front light (suitable for unlit roads) and a rear light. Hence the reason why I prefer to pay someone to do all this for me.

You don't need to worry about most details, thanks to the German bicycle laws (linked above), all the different manufacturers parts are standard and interoperable. So every standard dynamo and lights runs off 6V (it's just good to know) - get the bigger dynamo (3W vs 2.4W) and pick LED lights that suit your bike/style/budget (more money=better efficiency=more light output for same standard input). Once it's all set up, you won't have to worry about it for years.

cdaly_

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

bring the hub to a wheelbuilder to put it in a wheel?

You'll buy a ready-built dynamo wheel cheaper than parts plus wheelbuilder. Get all the bits, bolt em up to the bike and we can probably find a willing boardsie to go over the electrical stuff...

doozerie

My wife's dynamo hub is a Son 28 paired with a B&M Lumotec IQ2 Luxos U senso front headlamp with a USB port. She has found that the front light dims a lot when charging something via the USB port, so she avoids using the USB port while riding at night unless absolutely necessary.

As for wiring, I was intimidated by that when I put her bike together but it was very simple with that combination above (plus a Philips rear light). Two wires involved, the only fiddly part was being careful when heat-shrink wrapping the plugs at each end, and routing the wire can be a bit of a faff too but electrical tape can get you through most challenges there (it's robust, easy to apply, and available in various colours so you might be able to get a colour to match your frame if you are so inclined).

That was my first time working on a dynamo hub and I was impressed by the technology. The resistance of the Son hub was minimal, lift the bike and spin the wheel by hand and it spins for quite a while, it's hard to tell the difference when you switch the lights on too, it spins better than many non-dynamo hubs I've seen.

I was converted to dynamo hubs and subsequently bought a couple of cheap Shimano ones for my commute bikes. Haven't built them into wheels yet though unfortunately, but I plan to, I think that a dynamo hub is the way to go for a commuter bike (and touring and audax bikes too).

Civilian_Target

Hub dynamos generate no noticeable resistance, although some of the cheaper ones can cause some noticeable wheel vibrations at high speed. You can buy quite good-value prebuilt wheels with the hub, so long as you don't have disc brakes. There are very few disc-compatible hub dynamos, and even fewer prebuilt wheels using those hubs. I pick up Sanyo H27 dynamo on an IDC Stout wheel on eBay last year under €100 and it's doing great.

Most hubs output 0.5 amps at 6 volts to give you 3W. This is a problem for USB charging because devices expect 5V at 0.9A, so 4.5W. So don't expect your phone to charge like it's plugged into the wall... you'll get half that charge at best. Plus, charging means no lights. Personally, I keep it as an option for charging a backup battery, which I then use to charge the phone... but this is only when you're camping for more than 3 or 4 days in a row. Personally, I'd recommend a phone with good battery life and a backup battery as your first options. If you're going somewhere sunny, solar chargers can also be a good option.

You should definitely dynamo lights, and there are some great selections out there. Personally, I've tried a few of them and find the B&M Lumotec IQ Premium Fly RT Senso Plus is a good choice for the front. It has a good, focussed beam (better than B&M Cyo), a big bright surface area for daytime riding or when you're stopped, and a good capacitor too (much better than the Herrmans light mentioned above). Plus that shape of unit, being tall it gets a bit more clearance over your front mudguards to put more light on the road for you.

For the back, the Herrmans h-Track is cheap and effective light with a big surface... and it can mount to a rack or directly to SKS Chromplastics mudguards if you don't have a rack, or tend to have a bunch of tents or other stuff hanging off the end of the rack.

Lumen

Civilian_Target wrote: »

There are very few disc-compatible hub dynamos

There are loads of disc dynohubs.

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/mobile/dynamos-hub-dept366/

ford2600

As for charging on the go, seems to be a few on here complaining of reliability trouble with Luxos

https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=63183.275

moggie123

Thanks so much for all the info ... what a wonderful resource this boards thing is !

Civilian_Target

Lumen wrote: »

There are loads of disc dynohubs.

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/mobile/dynamos-hub-dept366/

If by lots you mean the Schmidt 28 disc hubs available in lots of different colors? :rolleyes:

[Pedantic]There is a limited selection of disc-brake compatible hub dynamos relative to the selection of rim-brake compatible dynamos, and they are generally more expensive[/Pedantic]

Mec-a-nic

Civilian_Target wrote: »

If by lots you mean the Schmidt 28 disc hubs available in lots of different colors? :rolleyes:

Don't forget the Shutter Precision (SP) disc hub, also comes in lots of anodised colours (for about half SON's price)

Lumen

Mec-a-nic wrote: »

Don't forget the Shutter Precision (SP) disc hub, also comes in lots of anodised colours (for about half SON's price)

There are a fair few Shimano options too.

Just from the Rose site...

SHIMANO DH-3D32
http://www.rosebikes.com/article/fromsearch/shimano-dh-3d32-disc-hub-dynamo/aid:670781

SHIMANO DH-3D80
http://www.rosebikes.com/article/fromsearch/shimano-dh-3d80-disc-hub-dynamo/aid:520202

SHIMANO DH-3D37
http://www.rosebikes.com/article/fromsearch/shimano-dh-3d37-disc-hub-dynamo/aid:671191

SHIMANO Alfine DH-S501
http://www.rosebikes.de/artikel/shimano-alfine-dh-s501-
nabendynamo/aid:333819

SHIMANO Deore LX DH-T675
http://www.rosebikes.com/article/shimano-deore-lx-dh-t675-disc-hub-dynamo/aid:591997

SHIMANO Deore XT DH-T785-1D
http://www.rosebikes.com/article/fromsearch/shimano-deore-xt-dh-t785-1d-disc-hub-dynamo/aid:742795

SHIMANO Deore LX DH-T670
http://www.rosebikes.com/article/fromsearch/shimano-deore-lx-dh-t670-hub-dynamo/aid:591989

Wishbone Ash

Mec-a-nic wrote: »

Don't forget the Shutter Precision (SP) disc hub, also comes in lots of anodised colours (for about half SON's price)

The SP PV8 (non disc) was recommended to me by a club mate but I'm having difficulty finding one fitted to a wheel. All the sites seem to have Shimano or SON hub dynamos on their stock wheels.

ford2600

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

The SP PV8 (non disc) was recommended to me by a club mate but I'm having difficulty finding one fitted to a wheel. All the sites seem to have Shimano or SON hub dynamos on their stock wheels.

http://spacycles.co.uk/products.php?plid=m2b0s209p0

Wishbone Ash

ford2600 wrote: »

http://spacycles.co.uk/products.php?plid=m2b0s209p0

Great stuff - I'll have a gander through that when I get time.

(I should really know this but would a standard wheel for a 23/25mm tyre be the 19mm wide one?) (Don't have access to a bike right now!)

ford2600

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Great stuff - I'll have a gander through that when I get time.

(I should really know this but would a standard wheel for a 23/25mm tyre be the 19mm wide one?) (Don't have access to a bike right now!)

I'd hold off on ordering until you know what bike it's for.

I use H plus Son rims which are wide at 21mm (I think) your normal roads rims are narrower.

25mm tyre is the minimum width for my rims, which might have clearance issues on a race bike.

If for a audax bike in the traditional sense then clearance wouldn't be an issue. Wide rims allow lower pressure (along with wide tyres) which can help on very long rides on poor roads.

Get bike sorted first before you dive in buying wheel would be my advice.

Then there is the whole disc side of things....

Lumen

ford2600 wrote: »

Get bike sorted first before you dive in buying wheel would be my advice.

Then there is the whole disc side of things....

For the past few winters I've used a disc dynamo hub on both rim braked and disc braked bikes. Front spacing is the same, I just take the rotor off if I'm using it on a rim-braked bike.

In fact it's now not rim-brake compatible anymore but only because the brake track is so concave.

ford2600

Lumen wrote: »

For the past few winters I've used a disc dynamo hub on both rim braked and disc braked bikes. Front spacing is the same, I just take the rotor off if I'm using it on a rim-braked bike.

In fact it's now not rim-brake compatible anymore but only because the brake track is so concave.

Not a bad idea to make a wheel future proof. Pretty bright idea befitting your name...☺

Use disc dynamo hub laced to a rim suitable for braking.

Still leaves WA to decide how wide rim will be and what bike it is for...

I'd still go shimano TBH, when bearings need to be serviced, have a go if you snap internal cable get part for under €40 and repeat after another 20k km.

Ive posted service instructions before

Edit
http://dl.dropboxuserc... Dynamo Hubs.pdf

And here is shimano doc
http://www.paul-lange....DH//DH-3N80-2N80.PDF

Wishbone Ash

ford2600 wrote: »

I'd hold off on ordering until you know what bike it's for....

I was thinking of putting it on my existing commuter to see how I get on. If I'm happy, I'll go with it again with a proper winter/audax bike.

cdaly_

I'm running 37mm tyres on a 19mm rim (mavic A719). I have previously run 25mm tyres on the same rim without clearance issues.

Planet X

cdaly_ wrote: »

I'm running 37mm tyres on a 19mm rim (mavic A719). I have previously run 25mm tyres on the same rim without clearance issues.

47mm. or 1 and 3/4" on my Mavic A719 26" Surly.
Didn't check but assume it's a 19mm. rim?

Planet X

Nice profile on that Mavic A719 rim........

stopped_clock

Hope it's OK resurrecting this thread...

Now that the evenings are beginning to draw in a bit I'm starting to think about my lighting for the winter. I'm thinking about putting a dynamo hub on my bike. Intended use is suburban commuting mainly but also the occasional (short) audax.

Are people happy with the setups they've been running? Any recent front lights worth looking at, or is the Luxus U still the 'best'?

Is there much advantage in the more expensive hubs from SD/Supernova/SON over the cheaper Shimano hubs?

Is it still best to buy a fully-built wheel (like this one, say) rather than buying the bits and getting someone to put them together?

What's the best way to run cables on a carbon fork for clean lines etc.?

Thanks!

Mefistofelino

Over the years, I've used all three dynamo hubs. Heres my two cents worth.

Shimano
Heavy (ish) but good. Cup and cone bearings are nominally serviceable but tricky, due to the wiring. You can buy the inner generator assembly as a spare for under €40 which may be an alternative to risking wiring damage. Decent spoke flange diameter and width for a strong wheel. Probably the best compromise between costs, availability, weight and serviceability.

SP / Supernova
Essentially the same hub, though the Supernova is supposedly better sealed which might partly justify the higher cost. Lightweight but the hub spoke dimensions don't build into as strong a wheel as the Shimano. Not user serviceable. Supposedly, there is return to base option for the hub (which means stripping down the wheel) but could never find details for this. The internal wiring is very finicky. My SP hub ingested a lot of water in last winters floods and shat its wiring and bearings. I dismantled it to see if I could rebuild it - no hope. Good dynamo and very light but bearing life wasn't great.

SON
After the SP, I invested in a SON. Robust construction, bearing rebuild after 50,000 km and a thing of beauty. Decent water sealing too. However, it is bloody expensive and has to back to Germany for servicing. Connectors not as foolproof as Shimano either. My only regret is not getting the disc hub version as a future proofing move, as suggested above.

So in order of personal preference, taking cost, robustness and servicing into account

Shimano
SON

SP
Supernova

However, after all that, I've gone with a dynamo hub for reasons of long hours of cycling in darkness. If it was going to be just 3-4 hours in the dark and that was only occasionally, I'd go battery now.

Planet X

So,..............if you were to go for a battery light, what would you suggest, for Audax?
Off topic, apologies.

I have a SONdelux on my tourer and was planning to get a SON 28 for my audax bike but it wouldn't be justified for the amount of night riding I do.

...or even for early morning, dark evening finish audax.

Mefistofelino

Planet X wrote: »

So,..............if you were to go for a battery light, what would you suggest, for Audax?
Off topic, apologies.

I have a SONdelux on my tourer and was planning to get a SON 28 for my audax bike but it wouldn't be justified for the amount of night riding I do.

...or even for early morning, dark evening finish audax.

Don't use them enough to make a specific recommendation but I'd be looking at something with a focussed beam (usually German brands provide this) rather than having some massive output that is just fired everywhere. I'd also look at whether there is a spare battery pack available that can be swapped out on the side of the road.
One experienced Audaxer I know has been using an Exposure light for several years now. Good output and battery life, but quite "spendy ". I use a Lezyne as a backup to the dynamo lamp. Decent performance and compact.

Planet X

Was looking at an Exposure Strada MK 6 alright.
Good reviews.

Mefistofelino

stopped_clock wrote: »

Are people happy with the setups they've been running? Any recent front lights worth looking at, or is the Luxus U still the 'best'?

For a front light, I have the SON Edelux 2. The same LED unit as the Luxos but in a metal housing, with a glass rather than plastic lens, so more scratch resistant. Allegedly, the metal housing allows the LED be driven harder than in the B&M plastic housing of the Luxos, but this may be BS.

stopped_clock wrote: »

What's the best way to run cables on a carbon fork for clean lines etc.?

Two tie wraps and some good quality insulation tape the same colour as the fork. Remove the wheel and clean the inside face of the fork leg. Position the dynamo end of the cable near the dropout and tie wrap in place. Run cable along inside face of fork leg OR along the back /trailing edge of the fork. Keep taut and tie wrap at the top of the fork leg /crown. Place a strip of insulating tape over the cable to cover / hold in place. The colour should help camouflage the cable. Using a heavier duct tape would work too but will leave a residue on removal.

stopped_clock

Hey thanks Mefistofelino. That's really useful!

I reckon I'll go for a Shimano hub for a first system.

cdaly_

Planet X wrote: »

So,..............if you were to go for a battery light, what would you suggest, for Audax?
Off topic, apologies.

I have a SONdelux on my tourer and was planning to get a SON 28 for my audax bike but it wouldn't be justified for the amount of night riding I do.

...or even for early morning, dark evening finish audax.

I'd suggest going for a dynamo. I run my lights all the time and I've found that drivers take note of me at quite a distance which I attribute to the lights. You also get the benefit of a brake light using a dynamo along with the appropriate rear light. You don't get that with battery lights.